How do you rule Enlarge Person?

[heavyfuel]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm

I've always thought that you simply jumped to a size category larger (small to medium, medium to large) and got the appropriate modifiers to Str, Dex, space and reach. However, I read someone on the forum say that Enlarge Person is a debuff most of the time simply because any gear the target is carrying has its weight multiplied by 8, which will more often than not make the target encumbered.

In all honesty, I think this is one of the many oversights in 3.5, and targets should maintain whatever encumbrance they had in the first place. So, how do you guys rule it?

[Ellowryn]

By RAW the x8 of any equipment is right, but dont forget that the target gains a bonus to str. Also, this spell us usually cast on melee types so str is a high stat for them. If you are somehow running around at level 1 with fullplate, heavy steel shield, and a morningstar with only 14 str then yeah you will become encumbered but once you get to higher levels and can boost your str other ways and have access to extradimentional storage spaces weight becomes less an issue.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The whole x8 thing is dumb, I guess you could say I ignore it. *Creatures* might go up in weight by x8 by a size increase, roughly (halfling might weigh around 35 pounds, a human 200+), but equipment most certainly does not. Large weapons and armor, for example, weigh 2x as much as medium, enlarging a medium armor should thus make it twice as heavy otherwise it doesn't make sense. So I would say enlarge makes equipment twice as heavy for a medium to large transformation. Conveniently, that's basically wiped out by the carrying limit multiplier for being size large, and thus...I ignore the issue entirely.

[Curmudgeon]

I stick with the x8 equipment factor. It's not reasonable either from a power or gameplay perspective to do anything different. Enlarge Person is very low-level. Reformulating the armor and weapons so they match the encumbrance of items purpose-built to the larger size is just way out of line for a level 1 spell. Plus the table time to adjust armor and weapon weights with different rules than for other gear, just to be able to determine the new encumbrance category, bogs down the game.

As I see it, Enlarge Person has three uses:

Buff Monk-type characters who will still have a Light load even when their gear is 8x heavier.
Buff Fighter-type characters who will operate just the same when their load goes from Medium to Heavy.
In suitable spaces (narrow passages or low ceilings) debuff enemies.

Enlarge Person isn't for everyone. People who assume that it's always beneficial just aren't paying attention.

[Alent]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm

I've always thought that you simply jumped to a size category larger (small to medium, medium to large) and got the appropriate modifiers to Str, Dex, space and reach. However, I read someone on the forum say that Enlarge Person is a debuff most of the time simply because any gear the target is carrying has its weight multiplied by 8, which will more often than not make the target encumbered.

In all honesty, I think this is one of the many oversights in 3.5, and targets should maintain whatever encumbrance they had in the first place. So, how do you guys rule it?

Enlarge Person is a gateway to horrific misunderstandings of the size rules. :smalleek:

As far as weight goes, My group tends to roll with an identical fix to StreamOfTheSky's fix to the scaling to avoid verisimilitude arguments in play.

[Deophaun]

If read "similarly enlarged" to apply the same weight, then it also applies the same strength bonus, same dexterity bonus, same AC penalty, and same attack roll penalty. Which is nonsense when applied to items.

However, not nonsense is applying the space. A Large weapon now has a space of 10 feet. You now cannot occupy the same squares as your Large broadsword.

In short, the interpretation is silly.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I stick with the x8 equipment factor. It's not reasonable either from a power or gameplay perspective to do anything different.

I think the exact opposite. It's not reasonable from a power or game play perspective that melee's most important buff is oddly useless to anyone wearing decently hefty armor because it suddenly weighs 4x as much as it should logically.


Plus the table time to adjust armor and weapon weights with different rules than for other gear, just to be able to determine the new encumbrance category, bogs down the game.

Actually it does the exact opposite of bogging the game down compared to your interpretation. Since you're assuming gear doubles in weight (for medium to large, since that's the example I've been using) and the size multiplier to carrying capacity for being Large, it all neatly cancels out and you don't have to think about it at all.

While as with *your* interpretation, you absolutely do have to take the time to multiply all your gear by 8 and compare to your str +2, x2 multiplier carrying capacity since there's a good chance you're now overloaded with gear.

[137beth]

RAW, there is a possibility that Enlarge Person will put the target over their carrying capacity. The main targets are usually allied martial characters with high strength, so it isn't normally a problem for them. However, if you target, say, an 8-strength wizard, they might have to drop some magic items on the ground.

Personally, none of my players, nor I, particularly like carefully tracking carrying capacity, so we hand-wave it part of the time. Enlarge Person is one of those times. It is a buff for the characters who need it most. Using it RAW as a debuff, it is only really effective against martial characters, and they are already weak enough. It isn't a very good debuff against non-gish casters, because they aren't hindered by heavy loads (no need to move around) and can kill you even if they have to drop some items. It isn't a very good debuff against gishes, because they can have such high strength scores to begin with that Enlarge Person won't come close to putting them over capacity.
EDIT: Also, what StreamoftheSky said.

[Kazudo]

I run it by the book unless it's being permanenced. At that point I run it through just a normal size configuration and equipment table the stuff.

My table rarely tracks actual encumbrance.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually it does the exact opposite of bogging the game down compared to your interpretation. Since you're assuming gear doubles in weight (for medium to large, since that's the example I've been using) and the size multiplier to carrying capacity for being Large, it all neatly cancels out and you don't have to think about it at all.
Only armor and weapons are double the weight for an increase from Medium to Large; other things like food don't have such a rule. A pound of rations becomes 8 pounds instead. So you must do the calculations differently depending on the categories items fall into.

[Zanos]

Only armor and weapons are double the weight for an increase from Medium to Large; other things like food don't have such a rule. A pound of rations becomes 8 pounds instead. So you must do the calculations differently depending on the categories items fall into.
So instead of multiplying entire weight by 8, you have to go through and find what weight is gear and what weight isn't?

That sounds like it bogs the game down even more.

[Runestar]

My group has never really enforced this sort of rules. We just ran the enlarge person spell literally, applied the combat modifiers, and ignored the rest. :smalltongue:

[137beth]

Only armor and weapons are double the weight for an increase from Medium to Large; other things like food don't have such a rule. A pound of rations becomes 8 pounds instead. So you must do the calculations differently depending on the categories items fall into.

That requires even more paperwork than making all items increase weight by the same factor.

[Curmudgeon]

That requires even more paperwork than making all items increase weight by the same factor.
Which is why I stated that it's the wrong solution, in terms of gameplay. Just multiply everything by 8.

[Arbane]

...Since when has D&D had a Square-Cube law? Someone better let the giants know. And the dragons. And the other Colossal-sized creatures....

That way lies madness. And dead catgirls.

[Curmudgeon]

...Since when has D&D had a Square-Cube law?
Since always, just with exceptions for creatures naturally larger than Humans. From page 147 of Dungeon Master's Guide:
The Material Plane tends to be the most Earthlike of all planes and operates under the same set of natural laws that our own real world does.

[The Grue]

The above statement is contradictory on its face, because faster-than-light travel exists in D&D and yet does not produce temporal paradoxes.

Clearly, the Material Plane does not possess the exact same physical laws as our own universe.

[Azraile]

just have them look up the weight of the enlarged items, rather than going off x8... cuz that is stupid lol

[StreamOfTheSky]

Where is this rule that clearly lays out that other items increase by times 8? I know the creature itself does, but I want some definitive RAW to back up this "idiotic RAW" before I dismiss it anyway for being so dumb. :smalltongue:

Food and drink was mentioned as being x8....was there ever a mention of how it works for Large creatures compared to Medium? I know that for Small, stuff like a waterskin (filled) is 1/4 the Medium weight. But Small <--> Medium is weirder and less consistent than Medium <--> larger sizes, so I'm not sure that proves anything.

[Nibbens]

My table rarely tracks actual encumbrance.

Word. Therefore this whole thread is a non-issue with with my group.

[ericgrau]

Mass enlarge person also gets nice, because you can selectively pick the right allies to buff and enemies to debuff all in one turn. It's also an attack bonus and AC debuff for many types of foes. Big drawback is you need a lot of humanoid foes, which depends on the campaign world.

Ya usually those who use enlarge person are high str and they get a little bit of a carrying capacity boost (less than the extra weight, but something) so they should be fine unless they're playing as the party mule. Which tends to be unreasonable anyway not by weight but by volume. Yes they can carry up to their limit, but where exactly do they put it all and still move freely? So usually there's a bit of wiggle room.

Not tracking little stuff at all can be nice too, but it also has its drawbacks. You strip away more and more types of challenges until it's all hitting or magicking foes until they fall dead, rinse, repeat. Which makes for less interesting challenges. In 1e & 2e at least a neat part of the game was how your group of treasure hunting monster looters got all your stuff to market. Stripping dungeons down to bare stone, looting even the scrap material, loading up mules to their limits. Heck possibly quarrying the stone too. And then came the copper dragon hoard...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Using the ridiculous x8 multiplier doesn't hurt the wizard (who would never willingly take an enlarge person anyway). It hurts the fighter in full plate, wielding a big, (unrealistically weighted....thanks, D&D!) heavy 2H weapon or (gods help him) a tower shield.

[Kazudo]

Alright well, let me try that again. In a world with extra- and non-dimensional pocket dimensions which themselves only contribute in small ways to maximum weight which most adventurers are a given to have, I don't really track encumbrance except in special circumstances (the adamantine doubledoors, for example.

[ericgrau]

Using the ridiculous x8 multiplier doesn't hurt the wizard (who would never willingly take an enlarge person anyway). It hurts the fighter in full plate, wielding a big, (unrealistically weighted....thanks, D&D!) heavy 2H weapon or (gods help him) a tower shield.

The wizard is usually close to his encumbrance limit and enlarge person will almost always put him over. At least to slow down his speed. Or stop him entirely if he's at max light load or more. While the fighter carries more he is usually much much farther from his limit and might not move as much. Or when he does move he may often charge.