Can someone explain to me how a major bloodline increases the DC of death attack?!

[Wolfsraine]

So my group just hit level 7 and I'm considering going assassin. DM waved the need to be evil, since I'm CN and a mercenary anyway. Anywho, I'm a swashbuckler/rogue who underwent the ritual of the god Mask in Thesk for the shadow walker template. I'm eventually going to become a Telflammar Shadowlord.

But for now, I was toying with the idea of going Assassin and finishing with Telflammar Shadowlord if the characters make it that far. What I would like to know is how a major bloodline gives +3 DC to death attack. I keep seeing posts about improving the death attack DC and that was mentioned several times, but nothing I read about bloodlines tells me at all how you get that +3 or however much it is.

Can someone enlighten me and let me know what impact having a bloodline would have on my character?

Thanks!

[Kazudo]

It's essentially LA with benefits. It counts for things like, for example, skill max ranks. As far as how it helps DA, well, I'll put this here.



Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.


And since DA is figured using Assassin Class Level, it adds your bloodline levels to the save DC.

[Wolfsraine]

Thanks Kazudo! This is where I get confused. So lets say I'm a 2 rogue/3 swashbuckler/1 swordsage/1 assassin with a Major Bloodline. Am I considered level 8? Does each class I have contribute to the DC of death attack since I have a major bloodline?

Sorry if this seems stupid, I just can't wrap my head around it. Are bloodlines like a separate class? I'm just wondering if I can get my death attack DC high enough to have a reasonable chance of actually killing high priority targets.

[Red Fel]

Thanks Kazudo! This is where I get confused. So lets say I'm a 2 rogue/3 swashbuckler/1 swordsage/1 assassin with a Major Bloodline. Am I considered level 8? Does each class I have contribute to the DC of death attack since I have a major bloodline?

Sorry if this seems stupid, I just can't wrap my head around it. Are bloodlines like a separate class? I'm just wondering if I can get my death attack DC high enough to have a reasonable chance of actually killing high priority targets.

It doesn't seem stupid. Bloodlines are as confusing as all get-out. The language goes in circles. It's unpleasant.

Basically, a Major Bloodline will require you to, at some point, take three "Bloodline Levels." (What exactly these are is yet another confusing point.) The upshot of this is that each Bloodline Level counts for level-based abilities as though you had taken a level in any class you have with level-based abilities. Now, the Rogue 2/ Swash 3/ Swordsage 1/ Assassin 1 you mentioned is a total of level 7. According to this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineLevels), that means you would have taken two Bloodline levels, one before your third level, and one before your sixth. So, really, your build would look like Rogue 2/ Bloodline 1/ Swash 3/ Bloodline +1/ Swordsage 1/ Assassin 1.

Now, with regard to Assassin's Death Attack, the specific language says "If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies." As mentioned above, we add Bloodline Levels to class levels for level-based effects, so we treat him as an Assassin of his Assassin level +2, or a 3rd-level Assassin rather than 1st-level.

That said, as an aside, taking an actual level of Assassin rather than a Bloodline Level gets you more (e.g. spells, +Sneak Attack damage, Uncanny Dodge). Further, don't forget that Death Attack targets the Fort save, which is generally a high save, so most "high priority targets" are probably going to survive. So keep that in mind.

[Wolfsraine]

Thank you for that explanation. Makes more sense than it did when I was attempting to decipher it lol.

The Fort save is what I was worried about, I was trying to see how high I could get the DC for it to be useful. I may just continue on my path to become a Telflammar Shadowlord and just skip assassin and death attack. Just thought it would be cool flavorwise to be able to assassinate someone with one shot :smallsmile:

Thanks for the explanations though! Super helpful!

[Red Fel]

Thank you for that explanation. Makes more sense than it did when I was attempting to decipher it lol.

The Fort save is what I was worried about, I was trying to see how high I could get the DC for it to be useful. I may just continue on my path to become a Telflammar Shadowlord and just skip assassin and death attack. Just thought it would be cool flavorwise to be able to assassinate someone with one shot :smallsmile:

Thanks for the explanations though! Super helpful!

It's the big downside to most save-or-die abilities - you have to overcome the save. Now, there are some ways to crank a save. In this case, Bloodlines are a poor choice, if that was your goal. Obviously, there's the purely mechanical option of taking more levels in Assassin (or Shadowlord, the levels stack), and cranking up your Int (the ability score it keys off of).

Remember that the unmodified average of a d20 roll is going to be 10.5. Consider that, at level 10, a bad Fort save is +3. That means that, at level 10, the average roll is going to be 13.5. And that's if it's their poor save; at level 10, a good save will be +7. Assuming you take one level of Assassin and all 6 levels of Shadowlord, that's a +7 to your DC, total of 17+Int. That's not going to be a tough number to beat.

Since you can't really bring up your DC apart from class level and Int modifier, the alternative is to bring down their save. There are a variety of tricks you can use. Remember that both Assassin and Shadowlord get spells - see if there are any that can hinder a save. Consider magic items or templates that might help. For example, an Unseelie Fey (Winter) inflicts a morale penalty on saves equal to your Cha modifier to all nonfey within 5 feet. If you're using Death Attack from melee, this can be very useful, although you might otherwise have treated Cha as a dump stat. (Note that the template also adds -2 Str and Con, +2 Dex and Cha.)

But, yeah. The save is tough. There are other reasons to take Shadowlord, of course (Shadow Pounce!) but Death Attack is a tough trick to pull off when it counts.

Consider instead various poisons. The best ones are expensive, but very effective. For example, Luhix is an injury poison - an attack must deal damage to administer it. A single dose causes -1 to all ability scores, followed by a bonus to all ability scores for 1d2 hours. But a second dose within 24 hours triggers a DC 25 save-or-die Fort save. 25 is a much higher threshold.