"This encounter is dumb" - apparently one player didn't like my Dragons [venting]

[kkplx]

The party Soulbolt and Barbarian made a lasso, tying it to the barb and letting the soulbolt make the attack to catch one of the dragon. The Erudite readied a dispel and got both of them cleared of buffs, but the dragons retaliated and two breath attacks put the guy near unconsciousness when they looped in to search him 2 rounds later. They split up slightly to cover a bigger area for the "rat" (the erudite who had dispelled them and went invisible). One found him, informed the other by way of leaving a puddle of acid, but her sister, after breathing on the erudite, went over the waiting soulbolt and berserker and they managed to both hit her with a lasso and trip her with it, making her fall. After that the party killed her in 2 rounds (the barb dealing over 50 dmaage in a single round), before her sister could come to help out - she instead decided to flee and they glimpsed her later, scouting them from faaar up while they butchered her sister.

tl;dr: Party massacred one of the dragons the second they got her to the ground, the other failed her "morale" (25% chance to stay) and fled, watching them butcher her sister from high above.

So...I need to get this off my chest - this is the first time in the 5 months that my campaign has been running that I'm actually in shock due to the reaction of my player(s), and not the good kind of shock...

I am sorry for my somewhat confused rambling...
TLDR: objectively there's 2 issues: One particular player calling out one in every six DM judgements as hurting his feelings or straight up bad, and some murmuring in regards to the present encounter CR being too hard for the party.

My players started out at level 3 and over the last 5 months advanced to level 5(like 200xp to 6 missing atm) fighting a huge ankheg, a mob of ~20 bardbuffed 1st level fighters/commoners, crocodiles, a wyrmling black dragon and his kobold retainers, swarms of stirges, 3 trolls, mountain lions and recently a (slightly nerfed) destrachan (and they managed to refrain from attacking the Skum colony with harpoons 1 mile away from the place the described fight with the dragons takes place). They aren't stupid and by now none of them can pull hte inexperienced card anymore (the ranger and bard were kinda new), they've had quite a few moments of brilliance and so far have handled every encounter I threw at them, most of them more easily than planned.

But apparently this current (stopped mid-session due to a player repeatedly dropping the "this encounter is dumb, let's end the session" comment, on top of disputing how much he could talk to others in combat) encounter isn't okay now. WHY? I DON'T UNDERSTAND. They even started to get REALLY GOOD IDEAS towards the end before I had to stop the session&stream to spend the next hour discussing the personal issues of one player.

The setup:
Party: PF Soulbolt (ECL 5, LA bought off) | StP pridmordial giant Erudite (ECL 5, LA bought off) | Ranger (ECL 6) | PF Barbarian (ECL 6) | Bard (ECL 5, LA bought off, was gonna be late, didn't show at all)
Encounter: 2 Young black dragons (both with 1 level in sorcerer and therefore the elite array) and hunting mates, out to kill the barbarian who killed their brother. The barbarian had encountered them before and barely escaped alive. They're used to stalking prey and slowly killing it with hit and run in the swamp or drowning it. Against stronger foes they buff themselves with mage armor and if necessary shield. Technically a CR 8 fight, both dragons being CR 6 (5base +1 from the sorc level) +-1 cr depending on party composition.

The Barbarian was to be introduced this session, so the party followed my hook to meet him at his camp on a clearing in the jungle - they talked and managed to get to a decent reason to cooperate as a group when the ranger spotted one of the blacks circling in the distance. The party, alarmed by the ranger, decided to prepare for combat, waiting the full 15 minutes the black took to get within ~100 feet of edge the clearing. At that point her sister, who had been sneaking through the jungle, was detected by the party ranger before she had the range to use her breath weapon - so instead she casted Shield.

1st Round
On initiative the flying black (AC 23) swooped onto the clearing, blasted the barb (who stood flat out in the open) with her line and started to move away towards the tree canopy - her sister (now at AC 28 - 19+1dex+4+4), on the ground, ascended on her turn to get above the trees as well, and in passing hit the barb with another breath weapon. The party on their turns missed an ectoplasm from the erudite, learned that the dragon with an obvious shield spell has a higher than 25 AC, and had the barb hide under a tree to heal - he then climbed up and I allowed him to ready a jump with an attack off the treetop (29 feet up) if any dragon passed through within range.
2nd combat-"Round"
The dragons swooped away for 4 rounds, communicating in draconic (which the erudite heard), and returning as a pair at the end of their breath cooldowns to blast people (Ranger&Soulbolt) and starting their flyaway again. This time the erudite (with a readied action and going first before the dragons after it) entagling ectoplasm'd both dragons, and the AC decrease allowed the Soulbolt to deal a crit (22off its 132hp) to the doublebuffed black. The barbarian unfortunately missed, so did the ranger. The dragons went above the canopy again, waited out their CD's and the entangle, and returned.
3rd combat "Round"
When the pair returned, the party ranger shot his third no-hit full round, but the barbarian used his rope with a grappling hook to, after a use rope followed by an opposed Str check, stop one of the dragons dead in its tracks, making it fall, taking 10 damage (setting it to 100/132). I gave the dragon a 25% chance of staying and fighting, but it decided to withdraw, getting it just above the canopy but within shot range of most of the party. The Erudite entangled said Dragon again. Shortly after the discussion that arose in regards to whether or not it should have been prone, the aforementioned player kept on discussing possible tactics, at which point I reminded him that he was at the end of his time to talk in-combat, which led to him stating that "this encounter sucks", "let's end the session", "I'll never fight dragons again" and "Then I'm just gonna sit here thinking for 10 minutes to waste your time".

The dragons decided to favor safe bombardment from the air over a brute force attack on the ground, especially after one of them failed its ambush. Their DPS is actually significantly lower this way than if they were on the ground, full attacking, (15 acid damage every ~4 rounds compared to their 28.5 damage if their 5 attacks hit) and especially the party barbarian came up with some damn good ideas on how to prepare for them returning (since they'd stay away for 3-5 rounds to recharge their breath weapons and get rid of the ectoplasm) and getting one of them on the ground. And yet at least one player is violently opposed to the way I handle them. I never got him to express exactly what he expects, but clearly it wasn't magical creatures with the strength of several men that actually use their magic and terrain. If they encountered them in the swamp I guess his head would have exploded from them slowly killing them over the course of a day or two...

And see, this is where I realize once again that I don't even know what I am looking for with this - it's just that that particular incident with a player so completely denying everything about the session I'd prepared still haunts me 2 days after, especially because there seems to really be no solution that I can come up with or offer - the times of beatsticks are over and the party, after settling the personal issues of the player, actually had several viable ideas like getting the nearby Skum to help, finally using dispel or encircling a dragon after dragging it to the ground with a grappling hook.

[Sir Chuckles]

So basically you threw a nearly overpowering encounter at them, and they didn't enjoy it. I think the big thing is that it was a near-hopeless encounter. The dragons had every possible advantage, both strategically and numerically, and the players did not have fun.

It could have been handled better by both you and your player. Rather than getting upset, talk to your player and ask him why he did not enjoy it.

[kkplx]

By the numbers the encounter is perfectly beatable as-is, especially with the damage their Soulbolt can deal even without grounding them and the fact that the pair won't fight to the death unless cornered. A single dispel from the erudite with the pair on the ground would make them easily beatable (considering they're supposed to be "very difficult") due to the decent optimization on the martials.

They've also chosen to flee from fights before, especially when they hit them without preparation (and in this case they miss some tools like harpoons, lassos, tanglefoot bags, specific spells...) - they had spotted the flying dragon 30 minutes earlier, and then were given an additional 30 minutes after they spotted her the second time before her sister made it to the camp and tried to ambush - more than enough time to avoid the encounter altogether, and due to the thick jungle they still have a very viable escape/reinforcement route.

My stance on dragons is that they'll always fight to the best advantage, and at least 2 of my players were acutely aware of that. Fleeing was a very much expected outcome for the fight unless they would get creative, which, after some delay and much to my delight, they did.

[atemu1234]

By the numbers the encounter is perfectly beatable as-is

By the numbers the encounter is perfectly beatable

By the numbers

By the numbers

People need to grasp that this game is not purely numbers; if you realize they cannot handle an encounter, and you recognize that you've given the enemy enough advantages to make this not work challenge-rating wise, it's up to you, as DM, to make it work. These dragons were an overpowered encounter. You are, quite frankly, in the wrong here. Now, if this player didn't quit, make it up to him. Your dragons are probably a couple challenge ratings above them at this point, frankly.

[jjcrpntr]

Other than him saying "this encounter is dumb" what is he bitching about?
I have a guy sort of like this in my group of players. He played rifts for like 15 years or something, only started playing dnd/pathfinder last September. So basically any fight that isn't him and an enemy standing there taking swings at each other is DM BS. I'd explain to him that if he has a problem with the encounter(s) bring it to you after the game or at break. Interrupting the session to bitch about stuff is inappropriate.

[kkplx]

People need to grasp that this game is not purely numbers; if you realize they cannot handle an encounter, and you recognize that you've given the enemy enough advantages to make this not work challenge-rating wise, it's up to you, as DM, to make it work. These dragons were an overpowered encounter. You are, quite frankly, in the wrong here. Now, if this player didn't quit, make it up to him. Your dragons are probably a couple challenge ratings above them at this point, frankly.

With "by the numbers" i am not referring to the CR, but the actual Damage, To-Hit, DR, AC and spells available to the party, compared to that of the dragons. Even if the dragons just keep flying over and breathing, if the erudite dispels the (CL1) buffs they'll take an average of 22 damage per "flyby-shooting" while dealing out 2x 15 average - they'll fly off t oavoid dieing before they come even close to killing the party.

[John Longarrow]

kkplx

You presented the party with a type of encounter (I am guessing) that this one player doesn't like because he did not build a character designed with ranged combat in mind. As I've seen this happen before, I am guessing you have not used many ranged encounters prior to this fight.

For Dragons, the biggest headache is that, when flying and breathing, they often do more damage to the party than they take in proportion to their HPs. They can also always break and run, something the players generally don't feel as capable of doing.

How your player reacted is not something I would take at my table. If need be, I'd put a hold on the game and take them to the side to see what is up. My guess is he felt "I can't do anything and they are going to kill me", i.e. "The DM is screwing us".

By the book you may be right on the CR. At the table you should be seeing that one dragon with levels in sorcerer is much more effective than a pair without. This is due to the synergy of AC boost spells and "BIG TOUGH HARD TO HIT DRAGON". Some times the rules don't cover these exceptions where one level in a class is worth more than +1 to CR.

[kkplx]

Other than him saying "this encounter is dumb" what is he bitching about?
I have a guy sort of like this in my group of players. He played rifts for like 15 years or something, only started playing dnd/pathfinder last September. So basically any fight that isn't him and an enemy standing there taking swings at each other is DM BS. I'd explain to him that if he has a problem with the encounter(s) bring it to you after the game or at break. Interrupting the session to bitch about stuff is inappropriate.

He's a player with a similar approach as me, that I usually hang out with over skype quite a bit - but in the game I DM he often brings up rule discrepancies (which is fine, i forget stuff all the time). The issue arises when I actually act as a DM, coming to a point on an issue after a short discussion and expect him to accept it - he often seems to take it as disrespect instead of my role as DungeonMaster, and if I call him out on his sometimes petty seeming behavior, he shuts down completely.
He DMs himself in a pathfinder game and tends to make encounters equally hard as mine, so I don't understand his case on encounter design either.

[kkplx]

kkplx

You presented the party with a type of encounter (I am guessing) that this one player doesn't like because he did not build a character designed with ranged combat in mind. As I've seen this happen before, I am guessing you have not used many ranged encounters prior to this fight.



The guy complaining is the erudite :/
The barbarian, completely unable to hit targets from afar, instead had the best, most constructive ideas of the entire party.

[Sir Chuckles]

The guy complaining is the erudite :/
The barbarian, completely unable to hit targets from afar, instead had the best, most constructive ideas of the entire party.

That's fairly unexpected.
Though it only reinforces "talk to him and find out what's going on".

As for the numbers, it is a, by the numbers, very difficult fight. Such a thing means potential player death. Inherently, that's a bad thing. But when you count in the fact that the Dragons had the strategic upper hand for a majority of the fight and that a player was absent, it's a pretty harsh fight.

[jedipotter]

So...I need to get this off my chest - this is the first time in the 5 months that my campaign has been running that I'm actually in shock due to the reaction of my player(s), and not the good kind of shock...


I get this all the time. It's classic. And I will say what no one else will say: A lot of people play D&D at the ''below novice'' setting. Now first I will try to be clear: There is nothing wrong with playing D&D that way. But when a player always plays at the ''low setting'', it's is quite a shock to play at ''average'' or even ''advanced''.


Personal story: I play my dragons like tour encounter or worse. It's a big deal to kill a dragon in my game. Now nearby is another game run by Dave. He runs a ''low setting'' where dragons fly over and land in front of the characters and just attacks them with claws and teeth. No magic, no breath weapon, no feats, no strategy. Henry, a player in Daves game once killed a dozen dragons in a couple minutes(so he says, I was not there). Now my game is a bit more ''advanced''. A famous encounter was vs. a green dragon in the woods all predator /alien style. The single encounter took the whole game, several characters died, and everyone had tons of fun. Then one day we where talking about the encounter at a social setting, and Henry, who was nearby, was all confused. Why would to take a whole group five hours to kill one young dragon when his character alone killed a dozen in a couple minutes.

You often get the reaction if you have kobolds use whips, nets, bolas or such things that ''don't do direct'' damage. Or have foes that cast spells before combat. And so on.

[Mellack]

If you are having the same things happen as Jedi does, you are doing something wrong.

The fight is very hard, with their option being practically limited to flee or die. The dragons can kite them and slowly wear them down, more than they will to the dragons. I can see that being frustrating.

What seems telling to me is that the player asked for the session to stop. That seems that they wanted to cool off, and perhaps get a chance to speak to the GM.

[atemu1234]

DMG says that 5% (or is it 10%) of encounters should be OP, and it's up to the players to recognise a dangerous encounter and express the better part of valour. If they can't spot when they are outclassed, it's their fault. Not every encounter should be level-appropriate.

I'm not saying one shouldn't be OP; I'm saying that if the DM throws an encounter at them and it goes too far south, he should be prepared to stop the encounter one way or another: This guy has no concept of what he did wrong. Expecting damage to be average is not a good way to go, and the fact remains that expecting a PC to ping a dragon to death is a bad idea.

[kkplx]

The fight is very hard, with their option being practically limited to flee or die. The dragons can kite them and slowly wear them down, more than they will to the dragons. I can see that being frustrating.

What seems telling to me is that the player asked for the session to stop. That seems that they wanted to cool off, and perhaps get a chance to speak to the GM.

The fight was supposed to be very challenging if they don't flee, until they hit a threshold at which the dragons retreat to avoid death. Frankly, I was surprised how many ways to beat them the guys came up with when we talked after the session - as 4, they have a less than 100% chance of beating them without a death. With the bard in it, they can for sure beat them.

We talked after the session for a good hour and a half, and decided to have the less inflammatory players call a timeout if ever we should run into personal issues again. We'll see how it works out.

[Trundlebug]

So you ran dragons as they should be run. It doesn't sound like you do this often. Your players had time and opportunity. The problem player's reaction sounds like a problem player.

To those suggesting the DM should fudge the encounter because it is too hard should go play single player video games.

A set percentage of encounters should be difficult. This one was obviously difficult. They had time. Thar be dragons.

The Erudite is complaining. The Erudite. Kick him. Period. This guy is using a T1 class and T-nothing tactics. Add in passive-aggressive mumbling? Goodbye. There are a lot of players out there.

And again, for those people suggesting the game be altered because it's too hard, why on earth are you playing a game you can't lose?

[kkplx]

I'm not saying one shouldn't be OP; I'm saying that if the DM throws an encounter at them and it goes too far south, he should be prepared to stop the encounter one way or another: This guy has no concept of what he did wrong. Expecting damage to be average is not a good way to go, and the fact remains that expecting a PC to ping a dragon to death is a bad idea.

I very much dislike what you're inferring. I know full well what I am doing. The encounter so far if anything has been weaker than intended, and there's no reason for me to stop it - the party has passed the point where a hard (note: not unexpectedly op, but simply hard) encounter will be stopped to keep them alive.

The PCs, even in their unprepared (for dragons) state, have a fair chance of beating the encounter by "pinging" alone and have already grounded a dragon once. This is a pair of NPCs that WILL kill some of them if they handle the combat badly. They also have ample time to get away, allies nearby and all the tools necessary at hand.

[icefractal]

That is strange. Perhaps he had no suitable powers usable (max unique limit already hit?), and possibly had never encountered an enemy who could wait out his Entangling Ectoplasm. Still, seems like kind of a stupid complaint; he has ultimate versatility and can easily have better anti-dragon stuff ready in future.

My guess would be that he's a bit paranoid about the GM (you) being "out to get him" and so starts freaking out whenever an encounter seems too dangerous. Idk what the best thing to do about that is, though.

[kkplx]

That is strange. Perhaps he had no suitable powers usable (max unique limit already hit?), and possibly had never encountered an enemy who could wait out his Entangling Ectoplasm. Still, seems like kind of a stupid complaint; he has ultimate versatility and can easily have better anti-dragon stuff ready in future.

My guess would be that he's a bit paranoid about the GM (you) being "out to get him" and so starts freaking out whenever an encounter seems too dangerous. Idk what the best thing to do about that is, though.

I think our (his and mine) main issue is that he's very quick to take things personally, and I'm quick to set a ruling after consulting the SRD/Rulebooks, and tend to shoot down complaints if they don't seem reasonable. We've identified that potential problem zone and hope that letting the other players request a "timeout" for the two of us will help prevent such outbursts. (and no, I'm not "out to get him", but monsters and NPCs very much realize that he's a squishy target if he fails to suppress his displays or they hit creatures that have experience with psions)

And for the game stuff - they were all rested, the Erudite had 1 used power before the fight iirc, so 6-10pp spent. He's usually playing melee guys, but is extremely book-savvy just like me, so I kinda don't let that excuse slide anymore after 5 months of playing the erudite ;) And I checked, he knows Dispel Psionics, which he will probably use next session, simplifying the encounter.

[Irk]

kklpx, I think that you were fine. It seemed like a very well-designed encounter, and I could see myself enjoying it as any of the characters you described. The series of creative tactics only reinforces that the other players were appreciative of the challenge. Personally, I don't like it when people limit discussion of tactics, but if it was a previously accepted rule, than it's clearly a more complex problem, and I would recommend speaking to the player and asking them what they would like to see in an encounter, then combining that with your style of encounter-construction. I suppose you just have to include some sort of additional facet to make the game more enjoyable for them, if that's necessary. I really don't have any idea why they were complaining, though.

[RegalKain]

I pre-warn my players in my campaign that Dragons, Generals and Bartenders are not to be toyed with, or fought lightly, as most of them will be extremely effective and brutal in combat, I generally have a set of players that understands these rules and knows that when they see a Dragon, to be very, very wary of it, and to speak first before fighting if possible, I don't think you were in the wrong at all, especially if they had grounded one, they should have nova-ed one of them to ensure it's death while it was grounded, that'd make "future" encounters a lot easier since it'd just be one dragon. But my players and I also tend to think a bit outside the box when it comes to fighting, seeing as almost all fights are the same CR or 2-3 above.

There is no "wrong" way to play D&D (Except perhaps playing it in such a way that no one at the table is having fun but even then if you want to do that, you're doing it right.) The fact so many people on these boards claim that the DM should be ready to nerf combats at the hint of player death, is startling to me, maybe in the first level or two, when you're still learning your party, and the party their characters, but after that? I won't fudge a lot of numbers unless it's just abnormal (Like having enemies where I roll and my rolls are almost all crits etc)generally if a player dies, it sucks sure, but it's generally not the end of their life if the other members can/want to res them. Then again my players and I go into a game with 2-4 backup characters made we run pretty brutal worlds.

[Flickerdart]

From my experience, players complain about how an encounter is too difficult right up until the monster is dead and all of them are still breathing.

[Windstorm]

From my experience, players complain about how an encounter is too difficult right up until the monster is dead and all of them are still breathing.

Pretty much this.

Last weekend I had a group of 5 fight a band of orcs on a hillside path near a cave. they were originally fine, and detected the first set of orcs in the cave and backed off to plan how to deal with it, but made some noise thinking they were all safe. only to alert the orcs about 100ft up the hillside with bows. (talus slope with a couple boulders, only the path was anything close to level)

there was much complaint about dealing with 10 level 1 and 2 orcs as a level 4 5-man party (CR4-5 encounter intended) between the bow orcs and the 5 melee in chainmail, but they survived with all intact.

[Azraile]

It is called running people....... some times you have to run

some times you have to throw something up to trap one monster and fight the other

some times you just can't win.....

It happens in life and it happens in games, and if they don't like it tell them to leave.

[Arbane]

DMG says that 5% (or is it 10%) of encounters should be OP, and it's up to the players to recognise a dangerous encounter and express the better part of valour. If they can't spot when they are outclassed, it's their fault. Not every encounter should be level-appropriate.

Being able to spot that you're outmatched is only useful if you can GET AWAY from the killer encounter.

Dragons can fly. Most PC's ability to 'escape' them is entirely dependent on the dragons' willingness to LET them get away alive.

(Which isn't to say the Erudite player isn't a whiner, just pointing out the above advice isn't always useful.)

[TheDarkDM]

Dragons are territorial. GM is perfectly within his rights to say that if the party made moves to run away, teh dragons would be satisfied that they had defended their territory, and would not pursue.

Except these dragons are explicitly hunting the party. And kkplx seems to be unaware of the fact that dragons are notoriously difficult for their CR. Then you give them extra spells that they use to buff to an unreasonable level for an ECL 5-ish party? I would have handled it better, but if I were one of his players I would have been a bit peeved as well. I mean, consider the party composition - no dedicated divine caster, so they're more than likely to lose an attrition war. One character who would appear to have no way to effectively combat the strafing dragons. An erudite whose tactics the dragons seem easily capable of foiling. kkplx has the benefit of knowing that the dragons lose a math battle, but all the party sees are a pair of fast, flying enemies with a 25+ AC who are perfectly content to wait out any of the party's limited debuffs and keep spamming acid. Said dragons can also, individually, tank at least one crit without observed ill effects. As has been said, the party can't outrun them, and at their level they lack the tools to really hit pause on the encounter and strategize. Sure, you may argue they should have done that when they sighted the dragons, and you'd be right to a point, but a level five party on an open plain that is lacking both arcane and divine magic has limited options to avert the looming disaster.

Also, looking back through the description of combat rounds, the frustrated player was prevented from strategizing by the DM ruling against talking being a free action. Now, that's kkplx's prerogative, but if he knew the party was feeling overwhelmed he should have considered how shooting down an attempt to solve the problem would come across.

[Elderand]

Dragons are territorial. GM is perfectly within his rights to say that if the party made moves to run away, teh dragons would be satisfied that they had defended their territory, and would not pursue.

And a lot of dragons are evil, meaning a DM would be perfectly whithin it's right to rule that a red dragon pursue and murder the party beyond it's territory so it can reanimate the corpses and walk them into the nearest village with a magic mouth set to activate to deliver a warning not to come mess with him.

[TheDarkDM]

Something I just noticed - kkplx, how exactly does a Young black dragon with one level of sorcerer have 132 hp? Average for that age category is 85, and even if you put its 15 into Con that only bumps it up to 113 with the sorcerer level.

[Spore]

Well, while CR 8 is CR 5+3 it is also 8/5 or 60% over the party's level. So NO it is above the party's level and power. But you shouldn't be the one rescuing either normally. But in this instance you should have "overpowered McGuffin" teleport them to safety.

[Eldariel]

Well, while CR 8 is CR 5+3 it is also 8/5 or 60% over the party's level. So NO it is above the party's level and power. But you shouldn't be the one rescuing either normally. But in this instance you should have "overpowered McGuffin" teleport them to safety.

It's ECL 8 or maybe 9 because of tactics. A party of 4 level 5 characters has about 50/50 shot there according to CL. This is a party of 5 level 5-6 characters. ECL-wise, they could probably have a 50/50 shot at beating one more Dragon. And hell, there's nothing wrong with TPKs as long as it's not arbitrary. In this case it seems fair enough and they are advantaged in the fight if they play it smart anyways.

[Komatik]

Many posts here seem to miss the words "advance warning" and "dense vegetation".

[Dimcair]

Many posts here seem to miss the words "advance warning" and "dense vegetation".

True. But there was also only 1 dragon at that point^^. And had no Idea he has levels in Sorcerer. And had no Ideas how hard it would really be.

The 'fleeing from a fight' thing now and then is cool and all, but you can't expect your players to decide to run away on a meta-gaming basis.

If they have their "Oh ****!" moment, you also need to give them the possibility to flee. (as others said before, they are on foot. The dragons are flying, I would expect dragons to see quite well too).

Hiding could have worked.... maybe? But that reminds me a lot of Lord of the rings, when the nazgul finds Frodo in the middle of a huge swamp but then fails to see him under that tiny bush.

You could have let sb fall into an old cave system or something =D.

[kkplx]

Something I just noticed - kkplx, how exactly does a Young black dragon with one level of sorcerer have 132 hp? Average for that age category is 85, and even if you put its 15 into Con that only bumps it up to 113 with the sorcerer level.

NPCs and monsters roll hp the same way my players do, unless they are mooks (like the ~20 skum villagers - only their shaman and big brute had custom hp. (that means rolling twice, taking the better result)

Both dragons rolled hp in the high 80s, with the 44hp from 18 con pushing them to 126 and 132 respectively.

[kkplx]

Except these dragons are explicitly hunting the party.

And kkplx seems to be unaware of the fact that dragons are notoriously difficult for their CR. Then you give them extra spells that they use to buff to an unreasonable level for an ECL 5-ish party?

As has been said, the party can't outrun them, and at their level they lack the tools to really hit pause on the encounter and strategize. Sure, you may argue they should have done that when they sighted the dragons, and you'd be right to a point, but a level five party on an open plain that is lacking both arcane and divine magic has limited options to avert the looming disaster.

The dragons are NOT explicitly hunting the party. Only one guy, their newest member, who killed their little brother in a swamp miles away.

I am very much aware that dragons are "under-CR'd", but am of the opinion that that only applies to encounters whne you're still level 1 (white wyrmling can wreck you), and as soon as the get their own sorcerer casting. An out of the book black dragon, very young, young or juvenile, is laughable to a CR appropriate party. I agree though that the sorcerer level is incredibly effective, because the party erudite so far hasn't even made an attempt at dispelling their buffs - which are CL1.

The party is in the middle of a jungle, roughly one or two miles away from a huge cave system hidden in a hill that is populated by Skum that are friendly towards them. They're currently facing the Dragons on a clearing in the jungle. They have many a way to get away.

[Amphetryon]

The dragons are NOT explicitly hunting the party. Only one guy, their newest member, who killed their little brother in a swamp miles away.

I am very much aware that dragons are "under-CR'd", but am of the opinion that that only applies to encounters whne you're still level 1 (white wyrmling can wreck you), and as soon as the get their own sorcerer casting. An out of the book black dragon, very young, young or juvenile, is laughable to a CR appropriate party. I agree though that the sorcerer level is incredibly effective, because the party erudite so far hasn't even made an attempt at dispelling their buffs - which are CL1.

The party is in the middle of a jungle, roughly one or two miles away from a huge cave system hidden in a hill that is populated by Skum that are friendly towards them. They're currently facing the Dragons on a clearing in the jungle. They have many a way to get away.

The one guy is a member of the party, who will likely try to defend him, making the dragons respond to the whole party. "Not hunting the party" reads as disingenuous semantics from here.

Your minority opinion on dragon CR is noted; it is not in line with the majority of experience of folks who have discussed 3.X on the internet since it was first published, though.

All the methods to get away are easy for you to spot, because you're the DM and therefore have better knowledge of the total situation than the Players, who only have near-perfect knowledge of their own Characters (if that), do.

[kkplx]

True. But there was also only 1 dragon at that point^^. And had no Idea he has levels in Sorcerer. And had no Ideas how hard it would really be.

The 'fleeing from a fight' thing now and then is cool and all, but you can't expect your players to decide to run away on a meta-gaming basis.

If they have their "Oh ****!" moment, you also need to give them the possibility to flee. (as others said before, they are on foot. The dragons are flying, I would expect dragons to see quite well too).

Hiding could have worked.... maybe? But that reminds me a lot of Lord of the rings, when the nazgul finds Frodo in the middle of a huge swamp but then fails to see him under that tiny bush.


One of the party members was acutely aware that they hunted as a pair, sadly he decided to mostly keep silent about it.

The sorcerer level I agree, has a very strong effect if not met with a dispel. The funny thing is, that's quite literally the only thing that made this fight threatening. The soulbolt, if confronted with AC 19/20, would solokill one of them in 6 rounds, the melee guys would be even faster after a landing. Without their tactics and the buffs, the pair would (and will) be trivial for the presumably "very hard" CR 7 or 8. Rolling HP like PCs, smart use of abilities and terrain, and spellcasting are the only reasons I am able to throw challenging encounters at the party without going so high up the CR table that I throw monsters at them whose main danger consists of "if i hit, you die". (**** like that damn crab or the Skum Brute I custom made - 31 str, harpoon with 2d8+15 damage+same on release, and a bite with 3d6+10 - technically a CR3 >_>)

[Smorgonoffz]

So basically Op made a challenging encounter who's easy for him to solve (fleeing/getting allies), but challenging to the players.

Has the Op thought of decreasing the encounter difficulty? help the players (you could run away, the skum are your allies)?

[Irk]

So basically Op made a challenging encounter who's easy for him to solve (fleeing/getting allies), but challenging to the players.

Has the Op thought of decreasing the encounter difficulty? help the players (you could run away, the skum are your allies)?
Why do people continue to assert this? They seemed to be handling ti just fine, even without allies or fleeing. The problem was just the player.

[kkplx]

Obviously the party was given a strong inclination towards defending the orc, considering they'd just befriended him - this also means that the dragons will be more lenient if they feel the situation is turning sour, as they're confronted with an enemy far stronger than planned. I jsut wanted to correct the very bread statement of "the party is hunted" that was made earlier - it's one of their midst, which is similar in effect but not the same.

Actually, many of the solutions to the fight were brought up by players when we settled down after ending early and discussed the personal issues that had arisen. Currently I get the feeling that they will try and fight, either by getting help from the nearby Skum, or by using the grappling hook to ground one and surround it. But yeah, what exactly they can do with terrain is very hard to convey as a DM, especially if they haven't bothered to consider it at all - they did have a dragon sneak up to them from the ground though.

For CR - I was really shaken that night after the session, so one thing I did was use the CR calculator that you folk tend to post around here - a young black dragon scores over 8 on that without any adjustments (CR5 from hp alone, not factoring in the stuff that's supposed to make them actually good, like flight, ranged attacks and spells), instead of the listed 5. now look at that thing and tell me that this is remotely appropriate and not a complete walkover for an ECL 8 party. One thing with the giantitp CR calculator is that it overvalues hp - at least for the purpose of my particular campaign, which is low on save or die and save or suck monsters (will only happen if the party willingly chooses to attack something that does that) which arguably increase in difficulty the most with higher hp. But yeah, I'm aware that my opinion is a minority here and I would agree that, if played well, Dragons would outclass the average equal CR encounter, if only by the simple virtue of not being mindless, <3 int or landbound.

[Sam K]

He's a player with a similar approach as me, that I usually hang out with over skype quite a bit - but in the game I DM he often brings up rule discrepancies (which is fine, i forget stuff all the time). The issue arises when I actually act as a DM, coming to a point on an issue after a short discussion and expect him to accept it - he often seems to take it as disrespect instead of my role as DungeonMaster, and if I call him out on his sometimes petty seeming behavior, he shuts down completely.
He DMs himself in a pathfinder game and tends to make encounters equally hard as mine, so I don't understand his case on encounter design either.

It's said that if you really hate someone, it's likely that you see a part of yourself in them, that you don't like. Maybe he's frustrated because he's realizing how challenging some of his encounters can be? ;)

[kkplx]

It's said that if you really hate someone, it's likely that you see a part of yourself in them, that you don't like. Maybe he's frustrated because he's realizing how challenging some of his encounters can be? ;)

lol - if anything we're so similar in how we think that our one difference (another player called me a realist and him a pessimist) multiplies any small conflicts, with both of us being rather bull-headed and very precise when it comes to rules.

[FidgetySquirrel]

While I don't know the exact attack mods for your PCs, it seems like the ranger and barb have an infuriatingly low hit chance against the buffed dragons, and most of the party have a low save rate vs the breath weapons. Even taking dispel into account, the dragons can just fly away for a few rounds and re-buff, assuming they didn't waste their other spell slots already.

Out of curiosity, is the erudite's PC aware that the dragons are magically buffed? If so, why hasn't anything been done about it? If not, is there a way to figure it out without blatant bone-throwing? Combat-wise, this fight appears to be going in the dragon's favor, so far as attrition is concerned. It'd be different if the bard was there, but you play with the hand you're dealt, not the one you want to, or should have. Without the buffs, however, the fight becomes much more manageable, albeit still fairly difficult.

I'll admit, I probably wouldn't have run this encounter as is, but my group isn't your group. For example, I don't have 5 players. In case the bard doesn't show up to save the day, I'd recommend working on a work-around, possibly related to the nearby Skum allies. If any players are bothered by a supposed deus ex machina, remind them that the encounter was planned for a party that actually had the bard.

If they win, they'll feel better once they find dat triple standard treasure for 2 CR-boosted dragons.:smallbiggrin:

[kkplx]

While I don't know the exact attack mods for your PCs, it seems like the ranger and barb have an infuriatingly low hit chance against the buffed dragons, and most of the party have a low save rate vs the breath weapons. Even taking dispel into account, the dragons can just fly away for a few rounds and re-buff, assuming they didn't waste their other spell slots already.

Out of curiosity, is the erudite's PC aware that the dragons are magically buffed? If so, why hasn't anything been done about it? If not, is there a way to figure it out without blatant bone-throwing? Combat-wise, this fight appears to be going in the dragon's favor, so far as attrition is concerned. It'd be different if the bard was there, but you play with the hand you're dealt, not the one you want to, or should have. Without the buffs, however, the fight becomes much more manageable, albeit still fairly difficult.

I'll admit, I probably wouldn't have run this encounter as is, but my group isn't your group. For example, I don't have 5 players. In case the bard doesn't show up to save the day, I'd recommend working on a work-around, possibly related to the nearby Skum allies. If any players are bothered by a supposed deus ex machina, remind them that the encounter was planned for a party that actually had the bard.

If they win, they'll feel better once they find dat triple standard treasure for 2 CR-boosted dragons.:smallbiggrin:

Soulbolt rolls a +10/+10 and 17-20/x2 on rapid shot, the (TWF) ranger +8/+3 on a full round with a bow, the bard +6/+6 with rapid shot, the Barb +13/+8 with his axe - no range weapon - that's not factoring in bardic music, PBS and rage.

All members of the party had the effect of mage armor described to them as soon as it made the difference between hit and miss (your arrow hits an invisible field, and you see ripples run out over the dragons body from where you struck) and the shield is a visible effect anyway - they even know the spell's names since the erudite made his spellcraft checks.

That is, if they bother to travel days towards an extremely hostile swamp to retrieve said treasure :/. On the upside, the golden tablets the party found in the cave on their own already pay ~15'000, with the buyer paying them another 15k to keep them quiet. But they'll probably end up skipping the hoards, just like they skipped exploring the very valuable lair in the skum cave behind a cursed door.

[Spuddles]

DMG says that 5% (or is it 10%) of encounters should be OP, and it's up to the players to recognise a dangerous encounter and express the better part of valour. If they can't spot when they are outclassed, it's their fault. Not every encounter should be level-appropriate.

seriously. this is like wowcraft discussion in here; whiny players complaining that they should never have to face mobs with red names if they dont want to.

move on to a different game if you want slick easy encounters. i hear 4e has done a really good job building a sweet balanced combat engine.

just kick the whiny dude out of the game. he sounds lame.

[Azraile]

Like I said before...... some times you just have to out think the monsters, and some times you have to run....

If they don't like it, show them the door.....

It is that simple.

[FidgetySquirrel]

That is, if they bother to travel days towards an extremely hostile swamp to retrieve said treasure :/. There is no force that would stop me from getting that sweet, sweet hoard.

Except for that one time our level 5 party took out a juvenile red, but got a DM warning not to go wandering around dragon-infested mountains looking for it's hoard. He really... hated giving us loot.:smallmad:

[Flickerdart]

There is no force that would stop me from getting that sweet, sweet horde.
Unless you are the Mongols. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5nlD2CR7tI)

No but actually, horde and hoard are very different words. I would be a lot more frightened of a dragon horde than a dragon hoard.

[Esgath]

Soulbolt rolls a +10/+10 and 17-20/x2 on rapid shot, the (TWF) ranger +8/+3 on a full round with a bow, the bard +6/+6 with rapid shot, the Barb +13/+8 with his axe - no range weapon - that's not factoring in bardic music, PBS and rage.


Against AC 23 and 28 those to-hit bonuses are laughable. Even if their average damage would be high enough to compensate for their chance to hit, a few bad rolls will totally change the outcome of such an encounter.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Unless you are the Mongols. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5nlD2CR7tI)

No but actually, horde and hoard are very different words. I would be a lot more frightened of a dragon horde than a dragon hoard.:smalleek:Remind me to triple check if I post right before bed.

[kkplx]

Update since my players faced and "beat" the encounter today:

The party Soulbolt and Barbarian made a lasso, tying it to the barb and letting the soulbolt make the attack to catch one of the dragon. The Erudite readied a dispel and got both of them cleared of buffs, but the dragons retaliated and two breath attacks put the guy near unconsciousness when they looped in to search him 2 rounds later. They split up slightly to cover a bigger area for the "rat" (the erudite who had dispelled them and went invisible). One found him, informed the other by way of leaving a puddle of acid, but her sister, after breathing on the erudite, went over the waiting soulbolt and berserker and they managed to both hit her with a lasso and trip her with it, making her fall. After that the party killed her in 2 rounds (the barb dealing over 50 dmaage in a single round), before her sister could come to help out - she instead decided to flee and they glimpsed her later, scouting them from faaar up while they butchered her sister.

tl;dr: Party massacred one of the dragons the second they got her to the ground, the other failed her "morale" (25% chance to stay) and fled, watching them butcher her sister from high above.

[Sir Chuckles]

AKA "Time for a recurring villain".

[kkplx]

They already have one, but are yet unaware of his true nature ;)

The Dragon...will certainly mess up their lives if they ever return to the swamps to attack it or the kobolds that captured them at the start of the campaign, but won't seek them out past the marshes.

[RFLS]

People need to grasp that this game is not purely numbers; if you realize they cannot handle an encounter, and you recognize that you've given the enemy enough advantages to make this not work challenge-rating wise, it's up to you, as DM, to make it work. These dragons were an overpowered encounter. You are, quite frankly, in the wrong here. Now, if this player didn't quit, make it up to him. Your dragons are probably a couple challenge ratings above them at this point, frankly.

A couple CR over is fine. It's entirely acceptable to run an overpowering encounter once in a while. The group is explicitly well optimized, meaning that they should have no problem with a CR+2 fight. This one was was +3, maybe 4. The party, with a bit of planning, should be more than capable of handling it. Not every fight needs to be a roflstomp.


The guy complaining is the erudite :/
The barbarian, completely unable to hit targets from afar, instead had the best, most constructive ideas of the entire party.

That's just....wrong. It sounds like he might be someone who needs to win d&d. It's been suggested elsewhere that you talk to him; I'd like to reiterate that.


That's fairly unexpected.
Though it only reinforces "talk to him and find out what's going on".

As for the numbers, it is a, by the numbers, very difficult fight. Such a thing means potential player death. Inherently, that's a bad thing. But when you count in the fact that the Dragons had the strategic upper hand for a majority of the fight and that a player was absent, it's a pretty harsh fight.

Player death is not inherently bad. This is a storytelling game first and foremost, not a game in which there are win conditions. Arbitrary and regular player death can be bad (but not always; see call of cthulu and paranoia), but the OP doesn't seem to do that. He had a difficult encounter that naturally flowed from the storey. That is entirely acceptable.


Well, while CR 8 is CR 5+3 it is also 8/5 or 60% over the party's level. So NO it is above the party's level and power. But you shouldn't be the one rescuing either normally. But in this instance you should have "overpowered McGuffin" teleport them to safety.

This is wrong, pretty much entirely. Percentages don't enter into CR. +3 CR is entirely fine, except maybe at levels 1-2, 3 depending on the group.

Incredibly difficult encounters are fine, especially if they flow from the story. This one did. This is not a video game where everything needs to be level appropriate. This is a storytelling game, and the story comes first. If the story says 'overpowering encounter,' I'd be pissed if the dm pulled his punches. It breaks the sacred suspension of disbelief.

Finally, your McGuffin suggestion is poor for much the same reasons outlined above. Except in very specific circumstances, deus ex machina will cheapen a game, rather than enhancing it. Speaking personally, the more story oriented players I've met would rather have their character die than be saved by a cheap cop out.