[Help]Cleric 3.5

[sardinha0000]

Hello there, first time posting.

I'm seeking advice about the cleric in general, but specially in spells.
The thing is, my DM told me, obviously not in these words, to "Go Full cheese". Every spell is alowed, if it's not homebrew (i.e., published somewhere).

Important: i've read the Handbook already.

I'm a level 5 Human cleric, with 16 STR, 16 CON and 18 WIS. 8 turning attempts (even having 14 CHA), DEX was a dump at 12. Feats are Extend, Persist and DMM Persist (it's costing me 5 attempts, per house ruling. When people are playing LA+3/4/5 without penalties, it's quite acceptable, i think). Domains are Trickery and Luck (trying to negotiate travel instead of luck, idk why i can't get it when i serve the godess of roads).

The party consists of, other than me, a monk dwarf, a half-elf sorcerer and the LA guys, all ridiculously high point-buy: Fighter/Barb half-dragon (loadsofdice breathweapon, 26 STR), outsider rogue (pretty sure all his stats are 16-22, Spell Resistance 12), minotaur fighter (with a 3d6 axe and very high hitting headbut). All of the LA guys were nerfed just to get close to the party level (everyone is supposedly 5), this above is their current situation.

My idea is to, while being able to hit stuff with a greatsword either when it's not worth a spell, or when i have to "bring out da big guns" (let's see who gets it) while maintaining blasting/debuff/utility capabilities, for those days when the d20 simply isn't on your side (and when not feeling liking hitting stuff, a lot of hitters in the party).

I'm thinking improved turning to fuel DMM as 6th level feat, and maybe power atack or quicken at 9th.

The game is in a very custom scenario, the enemys are mostly homebrew, so are the gods. One problem is that most of us are still using lv1 equipment, magic itens are heavily restricted. AND, the group as whole think a cleric is not supposed to hit people, so i was stuff with a shortspear until last session, when i got the standard d8 stuff. So, i figured, i will have to make my own. Bone Knight is the thing in my head right now, qualifying is not a problem. Maybe i could discard that 1 CL loss, as the DM is brewing a custom PrC for ower sorcerer. Forging a Full plate and a greatsword should not be a problem.

I feel specially lacking in the AoE area, debuffs also, but specially damage. Single-target heavy hitters also seem uncommon. Isn't there low level 1d6/1d8 per level damage spells?

So, TL;DR version: while making a cleric spell "cheat" list, with every splatbook allowed, how cheesy can you get? Cleric in question is lv5 with 18WIS, but spells up to, say, lv 5 or 6 would be appreciated.

For those who read everything, sorry for the grammar, i'm not a native speaker, my iPad is configurated in another language and trolls me from time to time, and i always end up adding things halfway.

Btw, which is the right session to post when asking for system building help? We want to make an Avatar (the elemental bending one) game for next year's local gamecon.

[atemu1234]

Well, not to go into the Stormwind fallacy, how optimized do you want it? I mean, there are many different things you can do, and quite honestly it's a good class besides. You don't really need to break it for it to work (in other words, it isn't truenamer). In other words, an OP cleric isn't anything until we give it substance; backstory, roleplaying, and love of the game are what makes it work. Anything else just... doesn't.

[Rebel7284]

Some spells you should persist now.

Channeled Divine Shield [phb2]
Mass Lesser Vigor [SpC]
Ice Axe [SpC]

If you have turn attempts left:
Cloud of Knives [phb2]
Retribution of the Deity?[phb2]
Prayer.. or whatever that core spell is that gives +1 to everything.

Also memorize a couple of Close Wounds for emergency healing.

Consider going into Dweomerkeeper if you want to focus on casting or Ruby Knight Vindicator if you want to focus on bashing people's skulls in.

[sardinha0000]

Well, not to go into the Stormwind fallacy, how optimized do you want it? I mean, there are many different things you can do, and quite honestly it's a good class besides. You don't really need to break it for it to work (in other words, it isn't truenamer). In other words, an OP cleric isn't anything until we give it substance; backstory, roleplaying, and love of the game are what makes it work. Anything else just... doesn't.

Thanks for the consideration!
The background is pretty solid IMHO. Extremely condensed version: Very old Noble family that is in decay, current generation consists of only 3 people: Older Brother, Younger one (Me (or is it "I"?)) and Female Cousin. The 3 of us (I'm the only player) were resolute since young about restoring the pride of our House.
The Older Brother took the job of administrating the remaining business, and has a lot of talent for it. The Mansion on the Kingdom's Capital is slowly but surely regaining it's old Glory.

The Cousin, being incredible pretty, became a Courtesan, those that attend the biggest nobles, even the King himself! She gathers info on the political side, helping Me and my Brother in our respective fields.

I became a priest, the tradicional role for the younger sibling. It had the advantage to have a unique influence. The Church, while not overly rich, can always influence the people. Being a cleric of the godess of Paths and Trading, the very one who created writing. A Cleric of the Waylady shall never break a contract. She is a truly neutral godess (just like me). Tom always had a thing for money, even today, although sometimes he gets in trouble for twisting the facts a little to much to make a deal only remotely fair (which is something The Lady demands, fairness). But he was never the stereotypical skinny clerigyman, having grown up between other nobles sons, he took a liking to knighthood, training hard with horses, swords, shields and lances, and also learning how to forge (a hobby of his, saves money and guarantees quality!) (on the mechanical side, we decided "blacksmith" as a profession covered Craft Armor and Weapons).

He aspires to ascend on the Church hierarchy, gaining power and influence on the "inside", and respect and admiration on the "outside" (influence on the inner circles of power and respect for the rest of the people). His last mission was to hunt a powerful witch, in which he succeeded.

RP tips are appreciated, but mechanical aspects are hard to work out alone.


Some spells you should persist now.

Channeled Divine Shield [phb2]
Mass Lesser Vigor [SpC]
Ice Axe [SpC]

If you have turn attempts left:
Cloud of Knives [phb2]
Retribution of the Deity?[phb2]
Prayer.. or whatever that core spell is that gives +1 to everything.

Also memorize a couple of Close Wounds for emergency healing.

Consider going into Dweomerkeeper if you want to focus on casting or Ruby Knight Vindicator if you want to focus on bashing people's skulls in.

Mass Lesser vigor is quite nice, is one of the few i had picked up.

Not sure if ice axe is worth it.

Persist candidates are always nice to have, but i'm having more trouble with the usual format, something i could use like

How optimised? I'm not sure i can get that high, and i'm not the type that needs the spotlight all the time. Just stuff that feels more meaningful like, say, Shivering Touch. The Sorcerer is starting to optimise a lot as well, and the other guys are more experienced players. And we all are helping with the monk. So, as optimised i can get, without losing flavor.

[Esgath]

A cleric with DMM persist can do nearly anything you want him to do, you just have to persist the right spells for that. Ice Axe is a very good level 3 spell to persist. It does cold damage which isn't reduced by damage reduction and is not that commonly resisted on low levels, deals a nice amount of damage and you attack with touch attacks, so you don't need so much attack bonuses to hit. Maybe you can find some advice from my older posts here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347778-druids-aren-t-tier-1-they-re-tier-I-kick-your-ass-Help-me-compete-with-our-druid&p=17453465&viewfull=1#post17453465), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347778-druids-aren-t-tier-1-they-re-tier-I-kick-your-ass-Help-me-compete-with-our-druid&p=17453548&viewfull=1#post17453548), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353718-highest-level-persistable-spells-allowable&p=17568173#post17568173) and over there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348241-needing-more-cleric-advice&p=17459200#post17459200).

[sardinha0000]

A cleric with DMM persist can do nearly anything you want him to do, you just have to persist the right spells for that. Ice Axe is a very good level 3 spell to persist. It does cold damage which isn't reduced by damage reduction and is not that commonly resisted on low levels, deals a nice amount of damage and you attack with touch attacks, so you don't need so much attack bonuses to hit. Maybe you can find some advice from my older posts here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347778-druids-aren-t-tier-1-they-re-tier-I-kick-your-ass-Help-me-compete-with-our-druid&p=17453465&viewfull=1#post17453465), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347778-druids-aren-t-tier-1-they-re-tier-I-kick-your-ass-Help-me-compete-with-our-druid&p=17453548&viewfull=1#post17453548), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353718-highest-level-persistable-spells-allowable&p=17568173#post17568173) and over there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348241-needing-more-cleric-advice&p=17459200#post17459200).


Thank you.

Would getting Bone Knight (i'm waiting the DM response if the Su habilitie os another turning pool) on 7th and Sacred Exorcist on 8th and then following up with all 10lvs of BK be a good idea? I got the plot for both BK and Sacred Exorcist (i'm already workin for the Church, and a big ass Evil Deity made the sorcerer's best friend turn against him), and that would get me 3 turning pools, but maybe it will be overkill. And that's a long way down the road.

@edit: Another pool from BK is a no-Go. Death Delver is a good choice with Sacred Exorcist?
@edit2:
Me: "Hey, can i change my Turn Undead for Rebuke Dragon? It truly has no prerequisites."
DM: "Do you want 2 turning pools so badly? You already used turning once, so it doesn't make much sense changing it now. But we can treat the Turning the Bone Knight given as Rebuke Dragon, how's that?"

Is it a good deal?

[Esgath]

Thank you.
@edit: Another pool from BK is a no-Go. Death Delver is a good choice with Sacred inquisitor?
@edit2: i suggested changing the turn undead for reebuke dragons, he "suggested" that a Skill you have for so long wouldn't change like that, and we treat the bonus rebuking from Bone Knight as rebuking dragons. So, 2 turning pools. Is it a bad deal?

Sacred Exorcist or Church Inquisitor? And what do you mean on your second edit? Can you please elaborate what you are trying to accomplish as I am having no clue what you are doing now.

[sardinha0000]

Sacred Exorcist or Church Inquisitor? And what do you mean on your second edit? Can you please elaborate what you are trying to accomplish as I am having no clue what you are doing now.

I'm very sorry.
1- I asked if i could consider the Bone knight's (BK) Su habilitie as a new turning pool. He (DM) said no.
2- After more research, i asked if o could change my original Turn Undead for Rebuke Dragon, and, of so, the BK's habilitie would give me another turning pool. He said no, as i already used turning once.
3- But then suggested that, if i wanted another pool so bad, i could change the BK's Su habilitie to Rebuke Dragon.

To me, it seems that, in pratical terms, it's the same thing. I'm asking if it's truly a good deal.

Should i proceed with the Bone Knight? Should i try to get a level of Sacred Exorcist (which would fit in the plot really well)?




Btw, how does that sound for an everyday spell selection?

Spells Res.:
Lv0 5+1:
Detect poison, Light, Create Water, detect magic x2

Lv1 4+1:Disguise self - 10min/lv
Ebon eyes - darkvision 10min/lv
Bless +1 moral atk and saves 1min/lv
Protection C/E/G/L
Obscuring mist

Lv2 3+1: invisibility - 1min/lv
Sound burst - 1d8 + fortitude 1rd stun 6m diâmetro
Hold person
Silence

Lv3 2+1: resist energy- 12/lv
Mass lesser vigor
Ice axe


I'm not sure about obscuring mist, maybe Comprehend Languages? Other suggestions?
Dissguise self, invisibility and resist energy are domain spells (Luck and Trickery)

[Esgath]

Bone Knight sounds like a fine choice when you get a second pool to power DMM. When you have two separate turning pools, Extra Turning will provide +4 uses to both of them. I am not sure what you want out of Sacred Exorcist, it will not provide you with an additional turning pool. On 11th level I would strongly suggest you take one level of Contemplative to get a bonus domain of your choosing. You wanted cheesy, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17460220&postcount=21) is the cheesiest I can think of.

Regarding the spell selection:

Eyes of the Avoral can be great to cast on the party scout. Also check my other posts and the lists for persistable spells.
If you want to be a melee monster, I would favor Channeled Divine Shield instead of Mass Lesser Vigor since DR 10/evil will make you nearly impossible to kill in the low levels.

[RedMage125]

Btw, which is the right session to post when asking for system building help? We want to make an Avatar (the elemental bending one) game for next year's local gamecon.

At the risk of commiting blasphemy on these forums, someone did an EXCELLENT job creating an Avatar: TLA game using the D&D 4th edition rules. Even for those who do not like 4e, one must admit that the system is pretty much perfect for A:TLA. Earthbenders are Defenders, Firebenders are Strikers, Airbenders are Controllers, and Waterbenders are Leaders. I think apart from the Benders, only Martial classes are allowed.

Here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/16920521/COMPLETE-Avatar-the-Last-Airbender-A-Guide-to-Playing-Elemental-Heroes-in-Dungeons-and-Dragons-4th-Edition) is the link. I've read through it, and it's amazing. If you intend to create your own, I would at the very least check out what they've done and figure out what you'd like to do differently.

[sardinha0000]

Bone Knight sounds like a fine choice when you get a second pool to power DMM. When you have two separate turning pools, Extra Turning will provide +4 uses to both of them. I am not sure what you want out of Sacred Exorcist, it will not provide you with an additional turning pool. On 11th level I would strongly suggest you take one level of Contemplative to get a bonus domain of your choosing. You wanted cheesy, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17460220&postcount=21) is the cheesiest I can think of.

Regarding the spell selection:

Eyes of the Avoral can be great to cast on the party scout. Also check my other posts and the lists for persistable spells.
If you want to be a melee monster, I would favor Channeled Divine Shield instead of Mass Lesser Vigor since DR 10/evil will make you nearly impossible to kill in the low levels.

The Ebon Eyes would be for me, it's frustrating when you are the only one without darkvision in the entire party.

What would you prepare if you are going to face one BBEG, be it a demon, a wizard possessed by a demon (very, very likely. Realy.) or a Dragon?
What about a ton of mooks? And of it's both?
What to prepare on a generic day?

Sacred Exorcist i would take if i can persuade the DM to change the cleric's turning to Destroy Undead from Ravenloft, so i would get a Destroy pool from cleric, a Rebuking pool from BK and a Turning pool from Exorcist. But that's a big IF, so what other PrCs give domains and cool stuff?

I don't plan to be the main tank, we got a Minotaur Fighter and a Half-Dragon Figher/Barb for that. More like a very versatile Death Dealer. When people find a way to run from the Bony Greatsword, they will realise how foolish they were in making an enemy out of me as soon as the Holy Fire Of Eternal Suffering starts falling from the sky. Or something like that.



At the risk of commiting blasphemy on these forums, someone did an EXCELLENT job creating an Avatar: TLA game using the D&D 4th edition rules. Even for those who do not like 4e, one must admit that the system is pretty much perfect for A:TLA. Earthbenders are Defenders, Firebenders are Strikers, Airbenders are Controllers, and Waterbenders are Leaders. I think apart from the Benders, only Martial classes are allowed.

Here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/16920521/COMPLETE-Avatar-the-Last-Airbender-A-Guide-to-Playing-Elemental-Heroes-in-Dungeons-and-Dragons-4th-Edition) is the link. I've read through it, and it's amazing. If you intend to create your own, I would at the very least check out what they've done and figure out what you'd like to do differently.

Thank you very much, i will read it carefully.

[r2d2go]

If you're looking for more turning, I'd dip into Prestige Paladin, Radiant Priest of Pelor, and maybe Sacred Exorcist, grabbing a different type of turning each time (Destroy Undead or be an Azurin and get Channel Incarnum, maybe a Paladin ACF for Prestige Paladin). That'll give you a huge amount of things to fuel DMM. Divine Spell Power, the feat, is going to be excellent and optimizeable. Divine Might is decent (+cha to damage, 1 turn, prereq Power Attack), Divine Shield is fantastic (+cha to AC, half character level turns, prereq shield proficiency).

As for OP spells, there aren't too many that aren't already here, but I can recommend:

Streamers, 5th level, for hilariously high damage - 5d10 damage per streamer with touch attacks based on your BAB, lasting 1 round/level. You get 1 streamer at CL 9, and one more every 3 levels, and they attack whenever your opponent "takes any action".

Shivering Touch, 3rd level from Frostburn. 3d6 dex damage takes out a huge range of enemies with a single spell. Lesser version is 1d6 and still decent. Metamagic cheese this.

Sound Burst, 2nd level SRD. Nice little AoE that Stuns and deals token damage.

Hibernal Healing from Frostburn, while not damaging, is basically the hit point equivalent of Heal, with a material component of a bunch of snow. But it's at 5th level, which makes it fantastic.

Boreal Winds, 5th level spell from Frostburn. This spell is broken. For one round plus 1/2 caster level rounds, it deals 1d4 per caster level damage and pushes people back 3 feet per caster level, fortitude negates. It also has an area of 20x20xLong Range, which is 400 feet + 40 feet per level. Basically, it's a hilariously massive AoE that does almost blasting spell damage every round, plus pushes people back. The one weakness is that fortitude negates everything, but you can work with that. Combine with Control Winds or Gust of Wind for no-save movement control. It's at 4th level for Druids, which breaks it further, but eh.

Earth reaver is okay if you use Savage Species, as a 4th level spell with 7d6 damage and knock prone, save only keeps you standing. It's 5th level from Spell Compedium, which makes it not really worth it.

Flesh Ripper, 3rd level from Book of Vile Darkness, deals 1d8 per level to a single target.

Divine Power and Righteous Might are obviously good, but you probably know that.

Once you hit level 11, I recommend getting a partially charged Staff of Holy Star (7th level, Spell Compedium) and Metamagic Spell Trigger, allowing you to DMM Persist Holy Star which will let you get free-action beams of 6d6 damage, spell turning, or +6 circumstance bonus to AC. You choose each round, and Persist makes it last all day. If you have extra cash, you can also add more laser damage with higher caster level (or just use Divine Spell Power and other shenanigans to hit a higher caster level).

Darkbolt, the 2nd level spell Lords of Madness Version, is a bit of damage and save-or-stun. Not great, but gets better with Chain Spell.

Sonorus Hum is a 3rd level spell from Spell Compedium, which will take over concentration for you. Combine with stuff like (chained) Hold Person.

Grab some Diplomacy and take Divine Insight (2nd level, Spell Compedium) and Wieldskill (1st level, Player's Guide to Faerun). With +5 cha, you're at +29 to diplomacy, which means you can make hostile NPCs only unfriendly (and thus no longer attacking).

If you took the level of Prestige Paladin (you get full BAB, don't lose any casting, plus get Smite, Detect Evil, and another Turning pool if you use the methods at the top), you have a ton of spells you can abuse. The next section is entirely about that.

4th level:
-Holy Sword gets you a +5 Holy Weapon.
-Revenance leads into Revivify (5th level Cleric, maybe get a scroll) for a much cheaper Resurrection with no loss of abilities.
-Righteous Aura with someone on hand for Revenance+Revify is 2d6 damage per level and heals your allies the same amount (you have to die). You also get +4 Cha.
3rd level:
-Angelskin from the Miniatures Handbook is DR 10/evil and silver for 1 round/level
-True Prayer of the Chosen a level early.
-Deific Bastion is a handy buff, giving your shield +1 and a bonus for 1 round/level. Good ones are Fharlanghn, Lolth, or Nerull, since you'll get 50% fortification, or Boccob, Garl Glittergold, and Wee Jas for SR 13.
2nd Level:
-Curse of the Brute is absolutely amazing, +x to physical -x to Int and Cha for 1 round/level. Neutralize casters or horrifically buff allies.
-Righteous Fury doubles damage on any charge for 1 round/level
-Flame of Faith turns a mundane weapon into +1 Flaming Burst weapon for 1 round/level
1st Level:
-Rhino's Rush is swift, and doubles your next charge's damage.
-Lesser Restoration a level early
-Silverbeard for +2 sacred AC (a rare type), for minutes/level
-Deafening Clang adds 1d6 sonic damage and stunning to your attacks for 1 round/level.

That's all I can think of for now.