What to do when your game becomes a videogame.

[Yael]

So, here's the thing, have you played any game from the Dark Souls saga yet? Well, my DM certainly has, and he liked it so much that he tried to set up a campaign just like the game, this wouldn't be a problem, normaly, but he went too far and tried to copy the system that the game holds.

Now, for every aspect of the game, experience was removed and Souls were placed instead. So, instead of obtaining 200 exp from beating an enemy (that would be used to progress your character,) you get 200 souls (which you should use to progress your character same way as EXP;) that would be alright, no? Except for the fact that not only EXP was removed, but curency as well (CP, SP, GP & PP) was replaced with the same souls you obtain for beating an enemy, so in practical terms, that reward of 200 souls are aimed for both your progress and your gear.

How this affect the game? Characters are progressing half the time that would be needed to advance in levels, and characters are obtaining half the curency enough to buy items needed (this is just like a big "meh" for casters, but from our 6 party members, just 2 are spellcasters.) This certainly SLOWS a bunch the game and makes it boring because for 5 sessions we were level 3rd (and yes, we started level 3rd.)

Maybe you can adjust your income to level up and get your gear when needed (by the way, item prices in souls are exactly the same as in GP,) but one other thing is that you are NOT allowed to level up normally, like with your personal experiences and getting better, to level up you need a certain soul (Golden Soul) to go with a certain person in a certain place to level up the entire party (if everyone have enough souls to fulfill the new leveling up system explained below.)
The experience table is the same as the one included in the Player's Handbook v3.5, page 22. However the method of leveling up has changed due to the fact that souls must be absorbed in order to level up.
Each time you consume souls to level up your character, your total soul count substracts the souls needed to level up at your maximum posibility (if you can level up 2 levels, you must do so.)
After you have leveled up, your experience resets and you must reach the next level as if counting from cero. For example: if Blanco, the snow elf warblade, owns 16,000 souls and he enters the Ritual of Upgrading to level up from level 5th, he will use all his 15,000 souls needed to reach 6th, then his soul counter will reset to 0, needing a total of 20,000 more souls to level up to level 7th (20,000 are needed because he had [16,000 souls - 15,000 souls = 1,000 souls.])
So now, not only you must adjust your curency to effectively level up and buy your gear, and after the fact that you do not level up by yourself (like normally you do,) but with a certain soul (obtained by a certain boss like "The Last of the Giants" or "The Mother of the Moon Butterflies"), going with a person in a certain place performing a certain ritual to level up; now you must level up like if you started from level 1st.
Should I mention that any loot you get won't be selled to get money? Like, objects contain no souls, so no loot help to get another's gear, also, to enhance your weaponry you must get special souls that may be used to enhance your weapons. So, yeah. What do you think of this system, would you play it? Also, no divine spellcasting alowed (just because almost everything is an undead in this game.)

[Kazudo]

That. Just sounds so bad. Like it really does. Not even being my overly opinionated jerk of a self.

That just sounds horrible. Well, it sounds horrible for D&D anyway. If it was, say, L5R, White Wolf maybe, Mutants and Masterminds (which actually has a thing for just that, you typically buy gear as you would a power), Paranoia (few house rules don't work in Paranoia), it would be different.

But D&D? 3.5?! Nope. Nope nope nope nope. I'd tableflip and walk out.

[aleucard]

I've been wanting to try my hand at making a similar variant for a while now. The reason I haven't is as follows; I, unlike your DM obviously, recognize that the entire DnD 3.5 game would need to be retooled to at least some degree in order to support it properly, preferably using some method of gradual character advancement rather than levels to get the full extent. Your DM has not done this in the slightest. The only thing going for them is that they maintain CR guidelines at least, so your party isn't being sent into the grinder before you can take that level of abuse.

If he insists on this, ask him to change the Soul costs of the items in question to ~2x the item's XP cost to make, with the normal XP cost if they make it themselves. Items that don't have a XP cost on craft get their prices calculated like they did (use normal rules), minimum cost of 1 Soul obviously. Other than that, tell him point-blank to scrap the need for a Boss Soul to level-up, and have it either give a large chunk of Souls or let the holder make a unique item/spell/etc. like in the source material. That thing about resetting the character's XP total is bulls@!# too.

[Yael]

I've been wanting to try my hand at making a similar variant for a while now. The reason I haven't is as follows; I, unlike your DM obviously, recognize that the entire DnD 3.5 game would need to be retooled to at least some degree in order to support it properly, preferably using some method of gradual character advancement rather than levels to get the full extent. Your DM has not done this in the slightest. The only thing going for them is that they maintain CR guidelines at least, so your party isn't being sent into the grinder before you can take that level of abuse.

If he insists on this, ask him to change the Soul costs of the items in question to ~2x the item's XP cost to make, with the normal XP cost if they make it themselves. Items that don't have a XP cost on craft get their prices calculated like they did (use normal rules), minimum cost of 1 Soul obviously. Other than that, tell him point-blank to scrap the need for a Boss Soul to level-up, and have it either give a large chunk of Souls or let the holder make a unique item/spell/etc. like in the source material. That thing about resetting the character's XP total is bulls@!# too.

Yeah... About the CR, he's using it up to the souls we've collected, so yeah, a bunch of level 3rd characters were facing a seven-headed Hydra... So...

[NichG]

Seems reasonable to me. If the DM is using the CR system to determine fights you'll actually end up being more powerful than you normally would since the block on level gain will hold you at a low CR and thereby encourage you to put more of your XP into gear than levels. If the DM isn't using CR to determine fights but is instead using it to determine XP, you're just going to get tons of XP, which works out with the XP being used to buy gear.

I've played in two campaigns which used a similar system (XP for everything) and it worked out pretty well. So I'd trying to be flexible and looking at the game as its own thing rather than focusing on comparing it to the usual D&D campaign.

Edit: Mostly it seems like the problem is that your DM is using somewhat wonky math in evaluating how strong the party actually is. I'd probably suggest for him to stop using CR entirely and eyeball it off of what the party can accomplish.

[Hiro Protagonest]

*tries to compare Dark Souls levels and D&D levels*

*fails*

[aleucard]

Yeah... About the CR, he's using it up to the souls we've collected, so yeah, a bunch of level 3rd characters were facing a seven-headed Hydra... So...

..... Tell him to either gauge it off of the party's level (with the gear not counting until it passes WBL) or stop the campaign. That's a party wipe in waiting. DnD is just not geared well for constantly getting your @#$^ shoved inwards because of the players screwups; it's far too easy for the players to fail for reasons beyond their control.

[Trundlebug]

Wow this is interesting. I've lost my head and tried various videogame/D&D mish-mashes before but the mechanics are weird, because D&D is y'know weird. Hard to balance. Videogames put a spin that D&D doesn't do well because of the basic class imbalances. I am sorry for your predictament but don't have any constructive advice.

:smallannoyed:

[Zanos]

Importing a leveling system where farming is a large component of progression will generally not end well for D&D. I'll toss my vote in the "bad idea" bucket. It isn't going to work well without serious tweaks, especially since he's using total collected souls to generate your ECL.

Is 1 soul = 1 gp?

[Yael]

Importing a leveling system where farming is a large component of progression will generally not end well for D&D. I'll toss my vote in the "bad idea" bucket. It isn't going to work well without serious tweaks, especially since he's using total collected souls to generate your ECL.

Is 1 soul = 1 gp?

Yes, 1 soul = 1gp.

Every thing that costs X gp costs X souls.

[Zanos]

Yes, 1 soul = 1gp.

Every thing that costs X gp costs X souls.

Run away very fast.

[Vorandril]

Unfortunately Dark Souls also is based around having pretty much infinite respawning.

Is it possible to translate a system so that you can emulate Dark Souls mechanics in D20? Absolutely.
Is it a good idea to COPY instead of emulate? Ohhh my, no.

My best suggestion would be to sit down on some day other than game-day and say, "Ok, we need to talk. This is bogus and you have a cool idea but we need to go about it in a way that doesn't break the game's balance."

If he refuses and says that you're stupid and ugly and your mother dresses you funny? Well I think that it would prove they lack the maturity to be a DM. DM'ing is volunteering to take the responsibility to ensure everyone is having fun. Not to force folks through your self-insert fanfiction.

Good luck. =)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Unfortunately Dark Souls also is based around having pretty much infinite respawning.

I don't think that's the problem with the translation of the soul system...

[Vorandril]

I don't think that's the problem with the translation of the soul system...
True, but mechanics in a game are built to represent concepts and context with numbers.
When you die in Dark Souls you drop a bunch of souls on the ground and have to go recollect them. What happens to your acquired souls when you die in D&D? An evil spellcaster comes by and starts using your hard earned Experigoldz as a spell component for +1 Caster Level. And a 3rd level character has a lot of those.

There's a laundry list of reasons why this interpretation is flawed and should be purged in a fire. Probably the easiest way to sum it up to the DM is to remind them that few video game mechanics translate over without a near rewrite of economics and leveling.

tl;dr
You're right, but the DM obviously "lost in translation" a lot of how the mechanics interact with one another.

[Yael]

Unfortunately Dark Souls also is based around having pretty much infinite respawning.

Is it possible to translate a system so that you can emulate Dark Souls mechanics in D20? Absolutely.
Is it a good idea to COPY instead of emulate? Ohhh my, no.

My best suggestion would be to sit down on some day other than game-day and say, "Ok, we need to talk. This is bogus and you have a cool idea but we need to go about it in a way that doesn't break the game's balance."

If he refuses and says that you're stupid and ugly and your mother dresses you funny? Well I think that it would prove they lack the maturity to be a DM. DM'ing is volunteering to take the responsibility to ensure everyone is having fun. Not to force folks through your self-insert fanfiction.

Good luck. =)

Yes, about that. We were given Humanity which respawn us after we died. So yeah.

[atemu1234]

Yes, about that. We were given Humanity which respawn us after we died. So yeah.

Burn it with fire. These games just don't sound fun to me.

[Yael]

And now we are supposed to face a colosal 12-headed hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) with a water ranged attack, and with like +100hp next game. We are all level 5th (I am level 6th.)

The party consists of:
- A Sorcerer.
- A Druid (with spell limitations) and no Animal Companion (DM removed it...)
- A Ranger (no spells)
- A Paladin Monk.
- A Warblade (me)

I don't think we will continue the game, the dude with a full plate got swallowed by a 7-headed hydra on the first round...

[Raven777]

Your DM wants a Dark Souls type adventure? Why not run through a lethal everything-out-to-kill-you mega dungeon instead? Rappan Athuk (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ual?Rappan-Athuk) would fit the bill nicely. I know it exists for 3.5 somewhere.

[Werephilosopher]

Cripes. Just... I can imagine there's a way to translate Dark Souls to D&D, but just straight copying it is really dumb. Translating things from one system to completely different things in the other system is REALLY dumb- making souls count as both xp and gp is like counting the number of torches in the first level of the game, then adding that number to your enemy's AC. It makes no sense.

[Yael]

Your DM wants a Dark Souls type adventure? Why not run through a lethal everything-out-to-kill-you mega dungeon instead? Rappan Athuk (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ual?Rappan-Athuk) would fit the bill nicely. I know it exists for 3.5 somewhere.

Wow, gotta take a read on that O:

[AuraTwilight]

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Darksign_Undead_%283.5e_Template%29

Just have your GM give this template to all the characters or something, it'd be less of a trainwreck.

[137beth]

Disclamer: While I have played a bunch of CRPGs, I have not played Dark Souls, and am writing this solely based on the description in the OP.

There are game systems in which it is really easy to mess with how much gear you give and mess with xp/advancement, without having to worry about both at once. There are also game systems in which it is relatively easy to add a few house rules and model the characters and possibly plot of an arbitrarily selected CRPG.
GURPS satisfies both of those criteria. D&D satisfies neither.
If your DM really wants to use a TTRPG to emulate a specific CRPG, I would suggest he/she either use GURPS, another generic system, or develop a homebrew system specifically suited to the task (a la the FF d6 system on the homebrew forums). If he/she is unwilling or unable to do either of those things, I would suggest he ditch the idea for a 'campaign' and either run a better game or just go play Dark Souls and let someone else DM.
And if he/she can't do that, and the side-conversations aren't enough to keep you entertained, then walk away. Quickly:smalleek: