As a DM, can I just say that Color Spray can go to the Abyss for all I care

[AnonymousPepper]

Put the level 1 mid-high-op party of four in my PF-with-3.5/3.0-material-allowed game up against a single deleveled (4HD) otyugh, reskinned as the bread monster (from the TF2 update short - what can I say, the inspiration struck me).

It would have been a tough fight.

Would have been, that is, because it was then that the party's Elven Generalist came out swinging with a Color Spray, the bread monster failed its will save (had less than a 50/50 of beating it anyway), and he maxrolled the stun duration.

Between the alchemist and the paladin both dealing out significant amounts of damage, the creature just didn't stand a chance.

I at least had the satisfaction of the wizard summoning a celestial fire beetle and watching its smite fail because the monster was true neutral, but still.

Color Spray 2stronk.

[eggynack]

Yeah, it's a pretty good spell. It does have its disadvantages though, mostly in the range and in how it doesn't work as well against high HD opponents. I'm somewhat confused on the idea of deleveling though. Did you mean that you reduced the HD to 4, rather than the CR? Cause the CR is already 4, and an otyugh at its current HD wouldn't take multiple rounds of stun. As is, single opponents tend to suffer at the hands of this sort of thing more often than most, so you might do well to have a few spaced out enemies as your big engagement. Otherwise, your monster could likely be murderfied with similar alacrity with a well built charger.

[AnonymousPepper]

Yeah, it's a pretty good spell. It does have its disadvantages though, mostly in the range and in how it doesn't work as well against high HD opponents. I'm somewhat confused on the idea of deleveling though. Did you mean that you reduced the HD to 4, rather than the CR? Cause the CR is already 4, and an otyugh at its current HD wouldn't take multiple rounds of stun. As is, single opponents tend to suffer at the hands of this sort of thing more often than most, so you might do well to have a few spaced out enemies as your big engagement. Otherwise, your monster could likely be murderfied with similar alacrity with a well built charger.

Err, yeah, I reduced the HD to 4, my bad.

Yeah, next fight's gonna be a horde fight I think.

I know it's what it specializes in but I mean dear Lord is it stronger than I remember. >_>

[Inevitability]

You can ban things, but I wouldn't recommend it. Wizards are able to dominate the game, that's a fact. However, they have several weaknesses:

-Low-level wizards will eventually run out of spells. Sure, Color Spraying one or two encounters per day is great, but after that you are down to shooting things with a bow and the occasional Prestidigidation.

-Use more than one enemy. Not only are multiple monsters able to spread out, they won't be put down so easily by a single spell. Even if the wizard gets them all in the AoE, they'll all have to fail their saving throws. This is unlikely.

-Throw monsters at the players that are immune to mind-affecting stuff. Undead, constructs, oozes...

However, never use these things too often. The wizard should be allowed to wreck an encounter once in a while, just as the fighter is allowed to one-hit kill stuff with lucky criticals once in a while.

In games you run in the future, you can say 'color spray is banned'. I wouldn't do this if the party is already active, though.

[AnonymousPepper]

You can ban things, but I wouldn't recommend it. Wizards are able to dominate the game, that's a fact. However, they have several weaknesses:

-Low-level wizards will eventually run out of spells. Sure, Color Spraying one or two encounters per day is great, but after that you are down to shooting things with a bow and the occasional Prestidigidation.

-Use more than one enemy. Not only are multiple monsters able to spread out, they won't be put down so easily by a single spell. Even if the wizard gets them all in the AoE, they'll all have to fail their saving throws. This is unlikely.

-Throw monsters at the players that are immune to mind-affecting stuff. Undead, constructs, oozes...

However, never use these things too often. The wizard should be allowed to wreck an encounter once in a while, just as the fighter is allowed to one-hit kill stuff with lucky criticals once in a while.

In games you run in the future, you can say 'color spray is banned'. I wouldn't do this if the party is already active, though.

Nah, I wouldn't ban it.

I'm actually giving my wizard relatively free reign - though I'm sure as heck not giving him a 3.0 A&EG item granting him Initiate of Mystra like he asked without taking a pound of flesh in return and I will not hesitate to nuke him if I deem it appropriate - for now.

I'm just more ranting because this is my first time having a boss monster instagibbed by a single spell. Sure to not be the last, though.

[RPGaddict28]

Now, now, Pepper, let's tell the full story here.

This is our second session, everyone's still level 1, but the more important bit is our first session. Plot happens, yadda yadda yadda, and here the party is, in the house of a Red Wizard in training. This wizard is only second level and he has color spray prepared. The party is kinda cramped because we had to enter a door in order to find this Red Wizard, we were all packed tight, tight enough that a color spray could hit us all. And it would have, if the Paladin didn't go running up in this wizards face, separating us. He still took that color spray, and he was taken out, but the Alchemist and I still managed to kill this wizard.

So, at the end of the day, our DM was fine with TPKing us with Color Spray, he wanted to even, but when we mess up his monster, it's suddenly an outrage.

[AnonymousPepper]

...shut up RPG, only us DMs are allowed to be hypocrites

:cool:

Ladies and germs, introducing my favorite optimizing d-bag of a wizard. <3

[Pan151]

Message deleted

[Crake]

Ah good ol' color spray. It made my beguiler MVP for the first 4-5 levels. He did some rediculously daring things, banking on color spray saving his hide, and oh, did it ever.

[AlanBruce]

I could've sworn the otyugh was a blind aberration that relied on blindsense or blindsight.

Then I looked at his entry and saw none of that and a lowish Spot Check... it happens.

D&D is a fun gaming and also a learning game. Do not underestimate pcs and their abilities- no matter the level. Even at 6HD (as specified in its entry) that's one round of hits the party's getting on it, for free. Then, it is free from being stunned and it can smack the paladin around a bit before it gets peppered with blasts and arrows.

As long as they had fun, it's all good. Just don't start sending grimlocks or destrachans at them to foil the color spray :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

HAHAHAHAHA! Wizard?! You haven't had a Heavens Oracle, have you? Imagine level 1 characters versus color spray for a ton of extra levels. :smalltongue:

[Trundlebug]

Put the level 1 mid-high-op party of four in my PF-with-3.5/3.0-material-allowed game up against a single deleveled (4HD) otyugh, reskinned as the bread monster (from the TF2 update short - what can I say, the inspiration struck me).

It would have been a tough fight.

Would have been, that is, because it was then that the party's Elven Generalist came out swinging with a Color Spray, the bread monster failed its will save (had less than a 50/50 of beating it anyway), and he maxrolled the stun duration.

Between the alchemist and the paladin both dealing out significant amounts of damage, the creature just didn't stand a chance.

I at least had the satisfaction of the wizard summoning a celestial fire beetle and watching its smite fail because the monster was true neutral, but still.

Color Spray 2stronk.

No it's fine. Just tweak your encounters. After all, you wouldn't want to call "cheating!" and be labelled Jedipotter now would you? Seriously his name has become a descriptive noun in my group. It's funny.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, Color Spray is a very strong spell, but if the DM uses it, he can't really ban it from the players... The main weakness of color spray is its short range, 15 ft max. For example....one time a Beguiler PC went up to the whirling frenzied, enlarged Orc Barbarian and tried to Color Spray it. Smart choice, it was her go-to offensive spell and if it worked, he'd have auto-lost the fight. Sadly for her...it made the save and eviscerated her right after.
Lesson: Even when it can instantly swing the battle, stepping up close to color spray isn't always the best idea, it's a very high stakes game of life or death. i mostly save it for when the enemy's already gotten to melee with my caster anyway, as a panic button.


HAHAHAHAHA! Wizard?! You haven't had a Heavens Oracle, have you? Imagine level 1 characters versus color spray for a ton of extra levels. :smalltongue:

Yeah, a level 2 (they don't get color spray at 1) heavens oracle with maxed out charisma can basically defeat a level 10 fighter like nothing. Well, if he fails the will save, but it's going to be DC 16, or higher if gnome or the oracle has spell focus (or both!).

[some guy]

Yeah, color spray is too strong. Not only that, it's also a hassle at the table as it gives multiple conditions with random durations.

[Trundlebug]

Stuff

Ya but as you so succinctly put it, it's a binary spell. As often that i works, it doesn't. And ppl die. (I think my kb is dying). For every monster reduced to "get's beat on" another has eviscerated the "clever" caster effortlessly. I'm fine with it.

[SimonMoon6]

This is one of the fundamental problems with D&D. You can't have a single monster be a credible threat. Ever. At least not until super-high levels and even then there are problems.

Every monster has a weak save. Spellcasters can always target that save. One spell is all it takes to eliminate a foe. Therefore, one single foe can never be a worthy opponent.

This is, of course, an over-generalization. Some monsters have all good saves (like outsiders), some monsters have spell resistance (like outsiders), etc. But still, one failed save (and one successful spell penetration) means that the main enemy is instantly defeated.

And yes, you can use spell-immune creatures like golems. But golems are boring. And smart spellcasters may have ways to deal with them as well.

So the solution is to use armies of creatures? Wait a minute, spellcasters also have spells with an area of effect...

[Psyren]

This is one of the fundamental problems with D&D. You can't have a single monster be a credible threat. Ever. At least not until super-high levels and even then there are problems.


This is the real problem here - if you want a fight to be challenging, using one monster is a terrible idea. The sweet spot between "faceroll easy" and "crushingly hard" is only a sliver wide when there is only one opponent.

OP: I highly recommend you read this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit) as well as the associated blogs its author has written.

[Kazyan]

No it's fine. Just tweak your encounters. After all, you wouldn't want to call "cheating!" and be labelled Jedipotter now would you? Seriously his name has become a descriptive noun in my group. It's funny.

Are we ragging on him in unrelated threads now? I'm pretty sure that's Not Cool. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

There are indeed rules against forum bullying and cross-thread baggage.

[Trundlebug]

This is one of the fundamental problems with D&D. You can't have a single monster be a credible threat. Ever. At least not until super-high levels and even then there are problems.

Every monster has a weak save. Spellcasters can always target that save. One spell is all it takes to eliminate a foe. Therefore, one single foe can never be a worthy opponent.

This is, of course, an over-generalization.

This. D&D is inherently unbalanced. It just is. 1 shot show downs often turn out very anti-climactic. Such is the way of things. Adjust your DM'ing appropriately.

[Darth Paul]

There's always That One Spell. (Or two, depending...) I despise Druids and their Summon Allies Tougher Than Themselves spell, but I've taken advantage of it as a player, too, so waddya gonna do.

One day the wizard is going to come up against a spellcasting creature (possibly one that has already cast Invisibility), when s/he least expects it, and eat a Color Spray out of nowhere- fail a saving throw- and get pounded by minions until the party comes to the rescue. Goose/gander. If the party can do it, so can NPCs, right? (Heh.)

[eggynack]

There's always That One Spell. (Or two, depending...)
Or a bazillion, really. I mean just at first level, in core, you have color spray, sleep, silent image, grease, enlarge person, and maybe protection from evil and charm person, along with prestidigitation and detect magic at 0th level spells.

[Thanatosia]

As a lv1 generalist wizard, he's got a grand total of 2 spellslots (assuming he's got 12+ int, which should be a ludicrously safe assumption). Even if the chance of the monster making it's save is better then 50/50, there's still a very good chance that the wizard just blew half his capacity to have any noticable effect on the adventure for nothing. It's a big risk/reward manuver at low levels, and as others have said, you should never try to hinge an group adventure around a solo big bad, action economy disparity makes it almost never work for reasons far deeper then save or die/suck spells.

[eggynack]

As a lv1 generalist wizard, he's got a grand total of 2 spellslots (assuming he's got 12+ int, which should be a ludicrously safe assumption). Even if the chance of the monster making it's save is better then 50/50, there's still a very good chance that the wizard just blew half his capacity to have any noticable effect on the adventure for nothing. It's a big risk/reward manuver at low levels, and as others have said, you should never try to hinge an group adventure around a solo big bad, action economy disparity makes it almost never work for reasons far deeper then save or die/suck spells.
Feh. He's not a generalist, he's an elven generalist. That means at least three first level slots, a fourth if he has 20+ intelligence, which is highly possible with an elven intelligence bonus, and a fifth if he's also going domain wizard. So, y'know, less than half.

[RPGaddict28]

As a lv1 generalist wizard, he's got a grand total of 2 spellslots (assuming he's got 12+ int, which should be a ludicrously safe assumption). Even if the chance of the monster making it's save is better then 50/50, there's still a very good chance that the wizard just blew half his capacity to have any noticable effect on the adventure for nothing. It's a big risk/reward manuver at low levels, and as others have said, you should never try to hinge an group adventure around a solo big bad, action economy disparity makes it almost never work for reasons far deeper then save or die/suck spells.

I'm actually looking at a total of 4 first level slots, +2 for my 20 INT and +1 for Elven Generalist.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm actually looking at a total of 4 first level slots, +2 for my 20 INT and +1 for Elven Generalist.

At least you went easy on the DM and didn't use the Domain Wizard variant from UA to get a 5th slot. :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, a level 2 (they don't get color spray at 1) heavens oracle with maxed out charisma can basically defeat a level 10 fighter like nothing. Well, if he fails the will save, but it's going to be DC 16, or higher if gnome or the oracle has spell focus (or both!).

We're playing through the Curse of the Crimson Throne right now. The fighter got charmed, so I said "frak it," and color sprayed him and the guy who charmed him. :smallbiggrin:

I use Persistent Color Spray when I have a full round action. The witch uses the "reroll the save, take the worse" hex when he's not slumbering everything.

[ryu]

We're playing through the Curse of the Crimson Throne right now. The fighter got charmed, so I said "frak it," and color sprayed him and the guy who charmed him. :smallbiggrin:

I use Persistent Color Spray when I have a full round action. The witch uses the "reroll the save, take the worse" hex when he's not slumbering everything.

Wait a minute? Persistent applies to color spray? How are you doing that on an instantaneous duration spell?

[Snowbluff]

Wait a minute? Persistent applies to color spray? How are you doing that on an instantaneous duration spell?

The PF version makes the target reroll successful saves. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic)

[ryu]

The PF version makes the target reroll successful saves. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic)

Oh.... That's much less interesting than I was thinking. Twenty-four hour fountain effects of impractical blinding. I could just do such horrible things to people with that.

[137beth]

Oh.... That's much less interesting than I was thinking. Twenty-four hour fountain effects of impractical blinding. I could just do such horrible things to people with that.

Yep, it's also better than Highten most of the time. 'Cause really, Paizo knew that the one thing the game needed was more ways to boost save-or-die spells:smallsigh:


For a first level spell, though, Grease is probably more of a gamechanging spell than Color Spray, though. Longer range, works on more things, targets an easier save, and remains useful longer. Then there are things like nerveskitter which stay useful until level 17 (when Foresight+Celerity makes it mostly obsolete.)

[ryu]

Yep, it's also better than Highten most of the time. 'Cause really, Paizo knew that the one thing the game needed was more ways to boost save-or-die spells:smallsigh:


For a first level spell, though, Grease is probably more of a gamechanging spell than Color Spray, though. Longer range, works on more things, targets an easier save, and remains useful longer. Then there are things like nerveskitter which stay useful until level 17 (when Foresight+Celerity makes it mostly obsolete.)

No see then it becomes useful against other wizards with foresight and celerity as things have equalized. This is assuming neither side is used contingent spells crafted or not of course. At that point it becomes a very different game.

[Anlashok]

No see then it becomes useful against other wizards with foresight and celerity as things have equalized. This is assuming neither side is used contingent spells crafted or not of course. At that point it becomes a very different game.

That's nothing! Full Attack stays relevant for a fighter from level 1 all the way to level 20! Talk about overpowering options. bluetext

[ryu]

That's nothing! Full Attack stays relevant for a fighter from level 1 all the way to level 20! Talk about overpowering options. bluetext

Okay man I'm gonna level with you. I know you're joking. I knew you were joking from four words in. That doesn't change the fact that every time I read something like that I die a little inside.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Okay man I'm gonna level with you. I know you're joking. I knew you were joking from four words in. That doesn't change the fact that every time I read something like that I die a little inside.Then I have 3 words you don't want to hear... Flurry! Of! Blows! So many attacks! So many possibilities!

[ryu]

Then I have 3 words you don't want to hear... Flurry! Of! Blows! So many attacks! So many possibilities!

Okay now that was just mean-spirited.

[137beth]

That's nothing! Full Attack stays relevant for a fighter from level 1 all the way to level 20! Talk about overpowering options. bluetext

Oh yea?!? Well Daisho Proficiency is gained at level one and is used for everything the samurai does! Not even Full Attack can do that!

[Alex12]

Oh yea?!? Well Daisho Proficiency is gained at level one and is used for everything the samurai does! Not even Full Attack can do that!

Pah on all of you!
Vow of Poverty is still the best! It gives you tons of feats and bonuses, and all you need to do is not use items! It's thematically perfect for Monks!

[StreamOfTheSky]

What about weapon focus? It's a permanent +5% chance to hit on every attack you make! I mean, compare it to spell focus, it's a +5% chance they fail against a spell, but it's only for one school of spells. And how many spells does a caster get to cast in a day, anyway? The answer's like 5 or less, right? Cause we totally balanced the game around that. The only thing more broken than weapon focus is greater weapon focus. Those crazy OP fighters get +10% chance to hit? That means they like...never miss! So broken!

[Alex12]

What about weapon focus? It's a permanent +5% chance to hit on every attack you make! I mean, compare it to spell focus, it's a +5% chance they fail against a spell, but it's only for one school of spells. And how many spells does a caster get to cast in a day, anyway? The answer's like 5 or less, right? Cause we totally balanced the game around that. The only thing more broken than weapon focus is greater weapon focus. Those crazy OP fighters get +10% chance to hit? That means they like...never miss! So broken!

No, no. See, the most powerful thing spellcasters get is their familiar. I mean, they can send it out and have it scout for them, and it can give them bonuses to their skills! That's just far too good. That's why you lose XP when it dies, obviously, otherwise it would be way too powerful.

[StreamOfTheSky]

No, no. See, the most powerful thing spellcasters get is their familiar. I mean, they can send it out and have it scout for them, and it can give them bonuses to their skills! That's just far too good. That's why you lose XP when it dies, obviously, otherwise it would be way too powerful.

Except, Familiar actually is a very powerful class feature. It gets your skill ranks and its own set of actions. So, it can UMD wands. And Improved Familiars get stuff like telepathy.

[Snowbluff]

Except, Familiar actually is a very powerful class feature. It gets your skill ranks and its own set of actions. So, it can UMD wands. And Improved Familiars get stuff like telepathy.

Yeah, they're good enough to make that *other* (barf) arcane bond option seem suicidally stupid.

[Psyren]

Yeah, they're good enough to make that *other* (barf) arcane bond option seem suicidally stupid.

I wouldn't go that far - there are definitely advantages to going with the bonded object approach. For example, being able to add properties to your item without needing item creation feats can be useful in certain campaigns, as well as letting you "recharge" items that need charges (wands in particular) after the last charge has been expended. In addition to that, there are some items that provide additional benefits if used as bonded objects, like amulet of spell mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-spell-mastery) and amulet of magecraft. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-magecraft)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Quoth The Wizard: "It's good to be the king!"

[137beth]

Quoth The Wizard: "It's good to be have used programmed amnesia on every the king in the world!"
Fixed for ya:smalltongue:
Also, Weapon Focus isn't a +5% to every attack you make, even if you only ever use one weapon: once your attack bonus gets high enough (common at higher levels) it will only matter on iterative attacks.

[Yahzi]

You think Color Spray is bad only because you haven't had to deal with Entangle. :smallfurious:

[Raezeman]

yes yes, there are some very annoying spells out there. Color spray is definitely one of them, as is entangle as mentioned above. I once had my players fight a dracotaur as sort of a miniboss, but the druid casted entangle on him as he charged in. The very low save + very low strenght check to get out next turn made him being pelted by arrows, bolts and damaging spells so he was already almost dead by the time he actually reached the party.

And there are more! Glitterdust comes to mind. I love using it when i'm a player with my raptoran sorcerer, and I do feel the pain when it's used against me as a DM. I once had a team of an archer, a dex-based dual wielder and a monster against my group. Stupidly they all were in range of 1 glitterdust casting and all failed their will saves. Massif drop to the AC due to all being dex based and massif drop to offensive capabilities due to concealment made that party go down easily.

And then there is edvard's black tentacles. Never had it used against me, but in a different campaign, the dread necromancer of the group used it against a pack of kobolds. The kobolds would have been a formidable opposition, but the small characters with strength penalties just were not able of passing their grapple checks.

However! Remember that as a DM, you can use these annoying spells also against your players.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You think Color Spray is bad only because you haven't had to deal with Entangle. :smallfurious:

Color Spray's much more lethal; Entangle's got a much longer range and larger area. The big area is actually the main drawback of entangle; it basically shuts out your own party's melee, too. Or becomes tough to "aim" without including allies. In any case, if enemies have ranged options, they can just stand in entangle and shoot with at worst a minor penalty (-4 dex). For many, many reasons, you should always have your characters (whether PC or NPC) have ranged options if at all possible. The game has too many ways to screw over or prevent melee to count.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, Grease and Entangle are Save-or-Suck. Color Spray is Save-or-Lose (hard).