Dark Template??

[Starchild7309]

So i try to have personal goals of each PC woven into my campaign. The beguiler in the party has said he would like to obtain the dark template.

"Dark" is an acquired or inherited template that can be added any creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Dark creatures tend to be much duller in color, with more gray and black skin tones and hair highlights, than their Material Plane versions. In general, they also weigh less, as if part of their very substance was mere shadow stuff.

A dark creature has all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: Type and size are unchanged. Dark creatures encountered away from the Plane of Shadow have the extraplanar subtype.

Speed: As base creature, +10 feet to all modes of movement.

Special Qualities: A dark creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.

Darkvision 60 ft.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect).
Resistance to cold 10.
Superior low-light vision.

Skills: Same as the base creature, plus Hide +8 and Move Silently +6.

Environment: Changes to Plane of Shadow.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature or same as base creature +1; see below.

Alignment: Usually one step different from the base creature, rarely good.

Level Adjustment: +1


So I am not one to usually use templates...and I am unfamiliar with this template or its strength or potential for abuse. I know he wants it for the hide in plain sight and it goes with the flavor of his character.

So I guess what I want to know is, how powerful is this template and how would someone go about acquiring it?

[Kazudo]

Visiting the Plane of Shadow for an extended period would work well. Aside from that, it's not a bad template. Not the most broken, but it can fit in well with a character concept.

[WeaselGuy]

Continual Collar of Umbral Metamorphasis will give it too, necklace, somewhere around 20k gp I think

[Trundlebug]

As said, an item mimics the whole template and it's HIPS isn't the good kind. Extended stay on the Plane of Shadow or consorting with a being of shadow should do it.

[Necroticplague]

The only real possible abuse would be using planar bubble to improve the realness of shadow spells. Of course, unless he's going shadowcraft mage, that's a relatively marginal increase in power.

The HiPS doesn't obviate the need for concealment/cover, and it makes him vulnerable to banishment and similar spells, while mostly just making him better at being stealthy. Its a lot less abusable then its bigger cousin, Shadow template (in conditions that Dark lets you HiPS? Shadow gives you full concealment.Plus, HD-scaling list of special abilities, including evasion, save boni, and fast healing.).

[Oddman80]

The only real possible abuse would be using planar bubble to improve the realness of shadow spells. Of course, unless he's going shadowcraft mage, that's a relatively marginal increase in power.

The HiPS doesn't obviate the need for concealment/cover, and it makes him vulnerable to banishment and similar spells, while mostly just making him better at being stealthy. Its a lot less abusable then its bigger cousin, Shadow template (in conditions that Dark lets you HiPS? Shadow gives you full concealment.Plus, HD-scaling list of special abilities, including evasion, save boni, and fast healing.).

Actually... There are two Dark templates. The one the OP quoted seems to be the one from Cromyr, that doesn't require any concealment. It is able to hide in any condition that is not exposed to direct daylight, or the daylight spell.

Its the backbone of a great stealth concept. I see it as more beneficial to mundanes than to casters, though. I paired mine with a whisper gnome swifthunter. If you have spring attack, or shot on the run, you are able to make an attack while still hidden, and then make your secondary hide check starting in a location other than where the attack occurred, and therefore the -20 penalty for hiding right after sniping, no longer applies. It can be a really effective for a mobile character, or a player with sneak attack, or iajatsu focus skills.. As enemies are flat-footed and denied their dex if their attacker is unseen to them. But it requires the players to move slow and steady to stay hidden... So doesn't work for chargers. And other mundane builds aren't going to be racking up crazy damage.... Just respectable amounts.

[Regissoma]

There is nothing wrong with this template as long as you use the right one. Honestly though just getting the 22k collar is better overall if he just wants the HIPS.

[Necroticplague]

Actually... There are two Dark templates. The one the OP quoted seems to be the one from Cromyr, that doesn't require any concealment. It is able to hide in any condition that is not exposed to direct daylight, or the daylight spell

No, no version of dark gives what you suggest. The relevant two paragraphs are in the hide skill description.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
The hide in plain sight only deals with the second paragraph. You still need cover or concealment, but you can now stealth out even when observed.

Also, your wrong about avoiding the sniping penalty. It doesn't change a different block of text relating to stabbing on the run.

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. So you still have to suck up a large penalty, since your attacking.

[Oddman80]

No, no version of dark gives what you suggest.

Its ok. You may just not have the text from Cromyr in front of you, or otherwise forgotten... but beleive me I did plenty of research on this including RAW Q&A before putting my Dark Whisper Gnome Swifthunter together. For the record though:



From: Forgotten Realms - Cromyr - The Tearing of the Weave

DARK CREATURE
Dark Creatures dweel on the Plane of shadow, sometimes crossing into planes where the barriers between dimensions are weak. Just as parts of the Plane of Shadow resemble a strange, distorted version of the Material Plane, dark Creatures superficially resemble creatures from the Material Plane.

CREATING A DARK CREATURE
"Dark" is an acquired or inherited template that can be added to any creature (referred hereafter as the base creature). Dark creatures tend to be much duller in color, with more gray and black skin tones and hair highlights, than their Material Plane versions. In general, they also weigh less, as if part of their substance was mere shadowstuff. A dark creature has all the base creature's statistics and special abilities, except as noted here.
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature or same as the base creature +1; see sidebar
Size and Type: Type and size are unchanged. Dark creatures encountered away fromo the Plane of Shadow have the extraplanar subtype.
Alignment: Usually one step different from the base creature; rarely good.
Senses: The base creature gains darkvision out to 60 feet and superior low-light vision (four times as strong as human's).
Resist: The base creature gains resistance to cold 10.
Speed: Allt he base creature's speeds increase by 10 feet.
Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following special quality.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): Can use the Hide skill while being observed and while lacking cover or concealment, except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or similar light.
Skills: A dark creature has a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +6 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. Otherwise same as base creature.
Level Adjustment: +1



Now, as far as what you said regarding:

Also, your wrong about avoiding the sniping penalty. It doesn't change a different block of text relating to stabbing on the run.
So you still have to suck up a large penalty, since your attacking.

Here too, I think you may not understand what i was intending, so let me clarify.

I am not saying you try to hide while attacking, while running, or while charging. I grant that at the moment of attack, your hidden nature is gone - you are exposed. But remember, I said that you would be moving slowly in order to make this work. You would not be running. A base creature with 30' movement ends up getting 40' movement due to the template. The swifthunter I mentioned, gained another 10' fast movement due to the required scout levels. Now she is up to 50' of movement per round. Per SRD, a character gets no penalties to hide so long as they are moving at, or slower than half speed. Therefore, no change in their hidden status occurs between standing still and moving at half speed. Given these conditions, my swifthunter has 25' of movement to work with. Since 'Skirmish' damage only kicks in if you move 10' prior to attacking, my typical round would consist of the following (Assuming I start my round hidden due to HiPS):

I move 10' towards my target, while going at half speed.

I attack my target making myself briefly visible.
I continue my Spring Attack and/or Shot on the Run by leaving the square in which I attacked, heading in one direction (again moving 5' while going half my allowed speed).
While moving in this vector, I hide again using my HiPS (Su) ability. I am no longer attacking. I am not running. I am not charging. And, I did not attempt to hide in place directly after making my snipe attempt. As such, I do not get a -20 penalty on my Hide check at this point. That said, the target has seen the direction of my movement, and should have a good idea where I am heading. Therefore, my target may very well be able to guess where I end up.
It is at this point, so long as I made my Hide check (with my +29 to Hide at ECL 6), that I change vectors and go in another direction for the last 10 feet of half speed movement (moving like a knight on a chess board).

I am now, once again 10' away from my target (or from a place in which I may make my ranged attack) for the next round, and the target has no clue where I am.

[Starchild7309]

Well this has all been very informative, thank you. So I talked to my player and it seems he is just gonna save up all his dwarf pennies and copper nickels and attempt to buy the continual collar. Saves me work, he's happy, and all the realm rejoiced.

[Necroticplague]

Its ok. You may just not have the text from Cromyr in front of you, or otherwise forgotten... but beleive me I did plenty of research on this including RAW Q&A before putting my Dark Whisper Gnome Swifthunter together. For the record though:Huh. Guess you're right. Sorry for the accusation.
Though, the text he copy-pasted seems to indicate using tome of magic version, which is the less-awesome version where you still need concealment, but is EX. Looking it over, that actually appears to be the only difference between the two.



Now, as far as what you said regarding:


Here too, I think you may not understand what I was intending, so let me clarify.Oh, got it, I thought you were hiding during the spring attack to get the Sneak Attack damage, not just hiding in between attacks. Sorry about that.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Wouldn't the ToM template supersede the Cromyr template? It appears to be an updated version.

[peacenlove]

Wouldn't the ToM template supersede the Cromyr template? It appears to be an updated version.

The opposite tbh. Cormyr, the tearing of the Weave came later than Tome of Magic by one year

[Curmudgeon]

The opposite tbh. Cormyr, the tearing of the Weave came later than Tome of Magic by one year
To clarify, it would supersede the Tome of Magic template in Faerûn, if your game used Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. The book is listed as a Forgotten Realms campaign accessory, so its contents are setting-specific rather than general.

[prufock]

No, no version of dark gives what you suggest. The relevant two paragraphs are in the hide skill description.

He/they might be thinking of the shadow creature template, which grants Shadow Blend.

EDIT: Never mind, got clarified while I was eating breakfast!

[Starchild7309]

Just for information sake, that is the Tome of Magic version as I do not have access to Cormyr and that is the version my player brought to me. So it would seem everyone is at least more than a little correct in some version.

[Pyromancer999]

Tome of Magic also mentioned that depending on the creature, it's perfectly fine for it to be +0 LA or +0 CR. It gives the example of a Dark White Dragon being +0 CR because it already has the vision stuff and cold resistance. So depending on your player's race, you could possibly just straight up tack it onto the character, especially if you remove one or two things from that.

[Curmudgeon]

Tome of Magic also mentioned that depending on the creature, it's perfectly fine for it to be +0 LA or +0 CR.
+0 CR maybe, +0 LA no. Here's the entire passage:
DARK CREATURES

The dark template is designed to be simple and flavorful. You can easily apply it on the fly to add shadow-based creatures to the campaign. It’s a simple, streamlined version of the shadow creature template (see Manual of the Planes page 190 and Lords of Madness page 167).

The dark creature template should either add +0 or +1 to a creature’s CR. Some creatures won’t gain much benefit from the template. For example, a white dragon already has darkvision, superior low-light vision, and immunity to cold. It gains a small increase to its already good speed and the ability to hide in plain sight. This template won’t appreciably increase its CR. On the other hand, a creature such as a lion gains greater benefit and likely merits a +1 increase to its CR.

Its level adjustment is low, making it a reasonable cost for PCs. You might allow a player character with a strong connection to the Plane of Shadow to acquire this template in lieu of a class level.

[Starchild7309]

I did see the possible reduction in LA, however as a "darkstalker" beguiler, i feel giving him an easier attempt at hiding is worth the added +1. As I said though, he has decided to just save up for the collar instead of attempting a quest to the shadow plane or risk encountering something strong enough to "stain" his being.

[Pyromancer999]

+0 CR maybe, +0 LA no. Here's the entire passage:

Ah. My mistake.