Infinite attacks?! Is this possible?!

[Wolfsraine]

If you have this ability:

Shadow Pounce (Ex): At 4th level, a Telflammar shadowlord learns how to attack swiftly from the shadows. Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation. The shadowlord must have line of sight on his intended target from his original location, and the spot to which he teleports must be a place from which he can launch a melee attack at the intended target with whatever weapon he has in hand at the beginning of his action.

And this feat:

Dimensional Dervish

You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.

Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

Can you full attack dozens of times a turn, until you move your allowed movement speed?

[Renen]

You have a funny definition of infinite.

[Sian]

swift action ...

You can only do 1 of those a round, so at most you'd get 2 full attacks depending on how you read it, and i'd lean toward reading it as its not possible even then

[Wolfsraine]

You have a funny definition of infinite.

Lol, yeah, I should've adjusted the title. I realized there's a movement speed limitation... lol

[Corronchilejano]

swift action ...

You can only do 1 of those a round, so at most you'd get 2 full attacks depending on how you read it, and i'd lean toward reading it as its not possible even then

Read again. The first feat doesn't actually use any sort of action, and the second one basically gives you teleportation before and after the first attack, and after every attack after that one. It wouldn't give you infinite attacks, but it would sure give you as as many full attacks as attacks you can do plus an additional one.

[Wolfsraine]

swift action ...

You can only do 1 of those a round, so at most you'd get 2 full attacks depending on how you read it, and i'd lean toward reading it as its not possible even then

I don't see how a swift action has any bearing on this. Dimensional Dervish allows you to teleport between each attack. Shadowpounce says, you get to full attack every time you use an ability, spell or effect with the teleport descriptor.

So you charge, swift action activate DDoor or whatever, Teleport. Arrive. Get a full attack, on your last attack (since you can teleport between each attack) teleport, new full attack routine, on your last attack, teleport. New full attack, repeat process until you run out of movement speed.

[torrasque666]

No, the logic he's going off of is like this



Full Attack, say with maybe 4 attacks(some how, I don't know right now.)
Swift Action activate Dimensional Dervish to begin teleportation
Teleport in front of opponent
Take 1st attack due to Dimensional Dervish.
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport to other side of opponent
Take 2nd attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport to other side again
Take 3rd attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport yet again
Take 4th attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce


So you would get 20 attempts to attack per turn. With a good enough weapon, say a medium +5 Greatsword.(I don't know if the recommended base classes for TSL has martial proficiency) so that would be on average 240 damage per turn, provided that all hit(average 3.5 per d6, 3.5+3.5+5=12, 12 * 20 = 240)

[malonkey1]

No, the logic he's going off of is like this



Full Attack, say with maybe 4 attacks(some how, I don't know right now.)
Swift Action activate Dimensional Dervish to begin teleportation
Teleport in front of opponent
Take 1st attack due to Dimensional Dervish.
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport to other side of opponent
Take 2nd attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport to other side again
Take 3rd attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport yet again
Take 4th attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce


So you would get 20 attempts to attack per turn. With a good enough weapon, say a medium +5 Greatsword.(I don't know if the recommended base classes for TSL has martial proficiency) so that would be on average 240 damage per turn, provided that all hit(average 3.5 per d6, 3.5+3.5+5=12, 12 * 20 = 240)

Yup. Now building a BBEG/Lieutenant that uses this.

[torrasque666]

Or hell, find a way to stick that on a guy with 16 BAB and haste. Bumps it up to 300 damage nicely. and if you're critting? Oh jesus.

[Kazudo]

Combine with Lightning Aptitude Maces and a TWF crit-fisher.

[Trundlebug]

Uhh I'm away from books atm but isn't Dimensional Dervish PF material. If my hunch is right, you'll see weirder stuff than that if you mix them the 2!

Otherwise, not infinite as others have said. Also it says activate DD as a swift action. You get one. That's where my (lack of) PF knowledge comes in. Does PF give you more swift actions? Also does that feat change the way you cast Dimension Door for reals? Also does it change the very #'s of dimension door? It seems to alter the spell itself.

Either way Sun School is worth looking at if you want shadowpouncing.

[Red Fel]

Part of the problem is entry. (This has been discussed in other threads.)

The feat chain requires Abundant Step or the ability to cast Dimension Door. Monks get Abundant Step at Monk 12, which means you're limited to your 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th-level feats to fill out the feat chain. Magi and Bards get DDoor as a 4th-level spell, so you don't get it until level 10, which means you get one more feat (11th-level) to spend on the chain. Summoners get it as a 3rd-level spell, level 7, but they're jerks. (I'm not even mentioning classes with a poor BAB progression.)

If you're also thinking of entering a class like Shadowlord or Crinti, you're distracting yourself with other levels and other feat prereqs. You're going to have to forego a lot of feats to qualify for these PrCs, and then burn several more to get to Dimensional Dervish. In short, you will be setting yourself up for a mechanic that won't become available at its basic level until at least level 10, that won't won't become fully operative (i.e. Dimensional Dervish) for at least five levels after that, and that won't reach its maximum effectiveness until after you've done your time in an additional PrC. And that's also assuming your DM will allow you to track 3.X all over his nice, clean PF.

Seriously, wipe your feet when you walk inside.

[Wolfsraine]

No, the logic he's going off of is like this



Full Attack, say with maybe 4 attacks(some how, I don't know right now.)
Swift Action activate Dimensional Dervish to begin teleportation
Teleport in front of opponent
Take 1st attack due to Dimensional Dervish.
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport to other side of opponent
Take 2nd attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport to other side again
Take 3rd attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport yet again
Take 4th attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce


So you would get 20 attempts to attack per turn. With a good enough weapon, say a medium +5 Greatsword.(I don't know if the recommended base classes for TSL has martial proficiency) so that would be on average 240 damage per turn, provided that all hit(average 3.5 per d6, 3.5+3.5+5=12, 12 * 20 = 240)

This is how I imagine it happening:

We'll say this is a Tiefling with levels in monk and twf, bab 7: +5 unarmed, +5 twf extra attack, +0 unarmed, +0 claw, +0 claw

1. Full attack action, activate Dimension Door.
2. Teleport
3. Shadow Pounce triggers
4. Full attack, take 4 out of the 5 attacks you get (Dimensional Dervish says you can Teleport before or after each attack, it doesn't specify which attack, so I take it to mean any attack from when the ability triggers)
5. Teleport after the 4th attack
6. Shadow Pounce triggers
7. Repeat steps 4 and 5 until you run out of movement, which at this level is probably around 120. (30 base, 30 haste, double it up from Dervish)

I should also mention that we play a pretty high powered game. We use feats, classes, races, templates etc from both sources and such with the pathfinder feat progression. Everyone has a blast playing and the DM throws things at us that are actually tough!

Anyway, just realized the interaction and thought it was pretty awesome.

[Regissoma]

Mentioned this build before: Duskblade 13/Criniti Shadow Maruder 5/ X 2
Now combine that with that feat and it will be quite fun.

Strategy:
Step 1: Full Arcane Channel Dimension Hop as part of a full round action; best to channel that through a gauntlet you're wearing
Step 2: Burn some spells into Arcane Strike
Step 3: Activate Dimension Dervish whenever it seems best (little busy to do calculations)
Step 4: Full attack using your main weapon, but keep one attack for later; then on the last hit smack yourself with the gauntlet to Dimension Hop
Step 5: Shadow Pounce + 1 attack from Dimension Dervish; keep repeating step 4 afterwards
Step 6: Once your movement has been used up; you can keep going since Arcane Channel is still up for that round
Step 7: Feel free to keep going till a book is thrown at you or you feel like stopping

Edit: Arcane Strike is an untyped bonus as it just says extra damage. Meaning to most people that you can burn multiple spells gaining a +1d4/spell level burnt of extra damage per hit lasting for the highest spell level burnt in rounds. Add this to a decent weapon and your average damage goes up quite significantly, but be warned I used this build once and after the third full attack I was smacked along the head by the DMG.

[BloodyMartian]

Shadow Pounce says you get the attack at the completion of the teleportation. Dimensional Dervish gives 1 teleportation divided into multiple jumps. Now if you DDoor then Abrupt Jaunt and then Quicken a DDoor that would get you three full attacks I think.

[Azraile]

a few things...

one each attack uses at the least 5 feet of movement so you will have to have a weapon with atleast two and a half feet range so you can strike them ever time you telleport....

two you would use up your move distance each time and once it's all used up your attacks are over....

three I think you can only space the teleports from the feats between attacks you can normaly make so it would be more like

activate feat
telleport
bonus attack
attack
telleport
bonus attack
attack
telleport
bonus attack
attack
telleport
bonus attack
attack
telleport
bonus attack

and 11 attacks is still insane o.o 13 i think if you do an attack of opretunity?

[malonkey1]

Part of the problem is entry. (This has been discussed in other threads.)

The feat chain requires Abundant Step or the ability to cast Dimension Door. Monks get Abundant Step at Monk 12, which means you're limited to your 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th-level feats to fill out the feat chain. Magi and Bards get DDoor as a 4th-level spell, so you don't get it until level 10, which means you get one more feat (11th-level) to spend on the chain. Summoners get it as a 3rd-level spell, level 7, but they're jerks. (I'm not even mentioning classes with a poor BAB progression.)

If you're also thinking of entering a class like Shadowlord or Crinti, you're distracting yourself with other levels and other feat prereqs. You're going to have to forego a lot of feats to qualify for these PrCs, and then burn several more to get to Dimensional Dervish. In short, you will be setting yourself up for a mechanic that won't become available at its basic level until at least level 10, that won't won't become fully operative (i.e. Dimensional Dervish) for at least five levels after that, and that won't reach its maximum effectiveness until after you've done your time in an additional PrC. And that's also assuming your DM will allow you to track 3.X all over his nice, clean PF.

Seriously, wipe your feet when you walk inside.

Well, for a 3.P Eberron game, I just used Lesser Passage Dragonmark to get Dimension Door.

[Snowbluff]

Mentioned this build before: Duskblade 13/Criniti Shadow Maruder 5/ X 2


I've pointed it out, too.

[RobotArtificer]

It allows you to teleport, but does dimensional dervish actually have the teleport descriptor? Because as far as I can tell that is what shadow pounce looks for.

[Deophaun]

Here is how that combo works:

Let's say you have a BAB of +16, so you get 4 attacks on a full attack.

Swift action: Activate feat using dimension door.
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport the rest
Full attack

This is because Shadow Pounce triggers off of the completion of dimension door. If you're still teleporting, then obviously dimension door hasn't completed.

[Requiem_Jeer]

Here is how that combo works:

Let's say you have a BAB of +16, so you get 4 attacks on a full attack.

Swift action: Activate feat using dimension door.
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport the rest
Full attack

This is because Shadow Pounce triggers off of the completion of dimension door. If you're still teleporting, then obviously dimension door hasn't completed.

Pretty much exactly this. Shadow Pounce doesn't let you full attack every time you teleport, but every time you use an ability that teleports. Meaning, even if the ability has multiple discrete teleports, it's still all the same ability, meaning it triggers shadow pounce exactly once.

That said, Shadow Pounce is ludicrously powerful and should be adjusted to be less nuts.

[Azraile]

What ever the ground equivalent of flyby attack is.... if you take that and can cast dimensional step on yourself though you can wiggle in two more full attacks because then you can teleport as a move action and move> attack> move then use that ability for your third move....

[malonkey1]

What ever the ground equivalent of flyby attack is.... if you take that and can cast dimensional step on yourself though you can wiggle in two more full attacks because then you can teleport as a move action and move> attack> move then use that ability for your third move....

I think, maybe, Spring Attack? The wording isn't quite the same, but I think it could still be applicable. Uncertain, though.

[Azraile]

I do on a cell phone right now so can't look it up. It basically just says you can make a move action and attack/cast anytime during the move action, then you can make another move action

[Wolfsraine]

Here is how that combo works:

Let's say you have a BAB of +16, so you get 4 attacks on a full attack.

Swift action: Activate feat using dimension door.
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport 5 feet
One attack
Teleport the rest
Full attack

This is because Shadow Pounce triggers off of the completion of dimension door. If you're still teleporting, then obviously dimension door hasn't completed.

At 4th level, a Telflammar shadowlord learns how to attack swiftly from the shadows. Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation.

Shadow pounce isn't reliant on DDoor. It's ANY ability, spell or effect. Dimensional Dervish is providing the effect. Everytime you teleport, you can full attack. Dimensional Dervish lets you teleport between attacks.

Full attack, DDoor, 30 feet to first guy, shadowpounce triggers, take 4 of your 5 attacks, Dimensional Dervish lets you teleport after your 4th attack, teleport 5 feet, shadow pounce triggers, take 4 of your 5 attacks, teleport 5 feet, shadow pounce triggers, take 4 of your 5 attacks, teleport 5 feet, shadow pounce triggers, take 4 of your 5 attacks, teleport 5 feet, shadow pounce triggers, take 4 of your 5 attacks, teleport 5 feet, shadow pounce triggers, take 4 of your 5 attacks, teleport 5 feet, shadow pounce triggers, take your 5 attacks since you are at 60 feet of movement. This is assuming double movement is 60 for your character.

Edit: I take "upon completion of the teleportation" to mean: When you arrive from point A to B. B is completion.

[Urpriest]

At 4th level, a Telflammar shadowlord learns how to attack swiftly from the shadows. Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation.

Shadow pounce isn't reliant on DDoor. It's ANY ability, spell or effect. Dimensional Dervish is providing the effect. Everytime you teleport, you can full attack.

No, every time you use an ability that lets you teleport, you can full attack. You only use Dimensional Dervish once a turn, when you take the swift action to activate it. The ability then has effects that let you teleport multiple times, but you still only actually use the ability once.

[Red Fel]

At 4th level, a Telflammar shadowlord learns how to attack swiftly from the shadows. Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation.

Shadow pounce isn't reliant on DDoor. It's ANY ability, spell or effect. Dimensional Dervish is providing the effect. Everytime you teleport, you can full attack. Dimensional Dervish lets you teleport between attacks.

Correction: The language should be emphasized thusly.

"Any time he uses an ability, spell or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation."

Dervish keys off of two abilities (Abundant Step, which references Dimension Door, and Dimension Door itself) that explicitly have the [Teleportation] descriptor. Similarly, the Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink maneuvers from ToB have the [Teleportation] descriptor.

But Dervish itself does not have the [Teleportation] descriptor. Rather, it grants added versatility to an ability that has that descriptor.

By that logic, then, the full attack triggers at the end of your Dervish - that is, "upon completion of the teleportation," that teleportation being the use of Abundant Step or Dimension Door.

[Wolfsraine]

Correction: The language should be emphasized thusly.

"Any time he uses an ability, spell or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation."

Dervish keys off of two abilities (Abundant Step, which references Dimension Door, and Dimension Door itself) that explicitly have the [Teleportation] descriptor. Similarly, the Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink maneuvers from ToB have the [Teleportation] descriptor.

But Dervish itself does not have the [Teleportation] descriptor. Rather, it grants added versatility to an ability that has that descriptor.

By that logic, then, the full attack triggers at the end of your Dervish - that is, "upon completion of the teleportation," that teleportation being the use of Abundant Step or Dimension Door.

Dervish says "Teleport". Is there somewhere that says Descriptor: Teleport? Does DDoor or Abundant Step have a category label that specifically gives it the descriptor?

Edit: I see where is says Conjuration (Teleportation). I'd still present the argument to my DM though for my way, because it seems awesome and more fun, and ultimately, the game is about fun!

[Red Fel]

Edit: I see where is says Conjuration (Teleportation). I'd still present the argument to my DM though for my way, because it seems awesome and more fun, and ultimately, the game is about fun!

Right. These are abilities that explicitly have the [Teleportation] descriptor in the explanation for the ability. The Dimensional Dervish feat doesn't actually give you a new spell or ability; rather, it modifies how an existing spell or ability can be used.

That said, you're right to present the argument to the DM. Technically, by RAW, Shadow Pounce tacks on to the end of the triggering ability (here, Abundant Step or Dimension Door), rather than onto the end of each individual hop. However, it would be pretty cool (albeit overwhelming; I don't see how spending 2 ki points or a 3rd/4th-level spell could justifiably give you that many full attacks in a single round), and the DM always has the opportunity to modify things if he sees fit.

[Taelas]

The two abilities still work very nicely together to give you two full attacks in a single round. That seems plenty awesome to me.

[Azraile]

There right but like I said dementional step spell makes every move action a teleport and you could get an item with that as a continual power...so you could do a full attack at the end of every move action. With the move/attack feat you can attack and take two move actions and get the extra jump with that feat as a quick action

That's 3 free full attacks not as good as 6 but still good

[malonkey1]

The two abilities still work very nicely together to give you two full attacks in a single round. That seems plenty awesome to me.

Add a Factotum's Cunning Surge for an additional Dimension Door & thus an extra full attack. How many ways are there to get free Standard actions, anyway? Because I have a few ideas for theorycraft builds involving that and Telflammar Shadowlord.

[Kennisiou]

There is a RAW method of getting infinite attacks, it just comes with a caveat and also violates the "no sane DM" clause entirely (not because it's too powerful, more because it's a reading of the RAW that's abusive of the game's reality). Nothing in being prone says you can't be tripped and nothing in tripping says you can't trip a prone target. Knockdown gives a free trip if you attack someone and deal 10 or more damage. Improved trip grants a free attack whenever you successfully trip someone. As long as you can continually deal 10 or more damage and successfully trip a target, you can have an arbitrarily large number of attacks by RAW. Still not that strong because tripping can be hard.

[Azraile]

Lol maybe your just so fast you trip them before they fall from the other trip lol

[Menzath]

For the non-cheese infinite attacks I use that psi on class adept from Cpsi and the web content for acf using dominant ideal with the mantle that grants dimension hop(or whatever the lowest power on that tree is called) then just use a feat to pick up synchronicity and linked power with the meta power reducer and the feat earth power along with shadow pounce from either teflammer shadow lord or crinti Maurader, whichever is easier to enter. Bam N/I attacks. And if you want to do it on more than normal earth/stone get the old torc of power preservation. Either way with N/I attacks you can just attack the ground till you get to natural material for earth power to kick in. Yes you can clear an entire cities cobblestone streets in 1 round. And the houses. And it's everything.

[Vogonjeltz]

No, the logic he's going off of is like this



Full Attack, say with maybe 4 attacks(some how, I don't know right now.)
Swift Action activate Dimensional Dervish to begin teleportation
Teleport in front of opponent
Take 1st attack due to Dimensional Dervish.
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport to other side of opponent
Take 2nd attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport to other side again
Take 3rd attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce
Teleport yet again
Take 4th attack
Take additional Full Attack from Shadow Pounce


So you would get 20 attempts to attack per turn. With a good enough weapon, say a medium +5 Greatsword.(I don't know if the recommended base classes for TSL has martial proficiency) so that would be on average 240 damage per turn, provided that all hit(average 3.5 per d6, 3.5+3.5+5=12, 12 * 20 = 240)

They don't grant extra actions, just enable the use of the full attack action (which requires a full-round action that has already been used). No infinite attacks

[Taelas]

Shadow Pounce does grant extra actions.

[heavyfuel]

If you want infinite attacks, why not just play a Crusader whose only ready maneuver is White Raven Tactics? Nothing says that you have to ready all 5 maneuvers, which means that you'll have access to it every round, and can then use it on yourself continuously to get infinite actions (all in 6 seconds).

[Karnith]

They don't grant extra actions, just enable the use of the full attack action (which requires a full-round action that has already been used). No infinite attacks
The Shadow Pounce abilities of both Crinti Shadow Marauder and Telflammar Shadow Lord say that you may execute a full attack any time that you use an ability with the teleportation descriptor, without mentioning an additional action cost (e.g. "you may use a full-round action to make a full attack"). They also explicitly trigger in situations where you wouldn't have enough actions to teleport and use a full-round action after teleporting (in the abilities' examples, when using Shadow Ride and Shadow Jump, both of which are Supernatural abilities and therefore take a standard action to activate). Since Shadow Pounce says that you get to full attack anyway, it's pretty obvious that it doesn't require additional actions; that is, the ability does exactly what it says that it does.

Much as with regular Pounce, you don't need to use additional actions to perform the full attack you get from Shadow Pounce, and it makes approximately zero sense to require it to do so.