Wondering if ToB will work for this build

[Ferronach]

Hello GITP friends,

A little while ago (before deciding to discover that the forums are just as awesome as the OOTS comic) I created a backup character for the 3.5e group that I am currently in.
The character wields an Elven Thinblade and wears Mithral Battle Plate and uses a Mithral Tower Shield.
I'm not going to bother including all of her items unless there is demand for them.

The character is below:


Race: Illumian w/ Sigil Aesh and Uur (+2 on Str & Dex skill checks and skills)
ECL: 9
Class: Fighter 5
PrC: Shadow Sentinel 4

Flaw: Shaky (-2 on ranged attack rolls)




Str
/18 +1 at Lvl 8 (+1 item) = 20


Con
18 (+2 item) = 20


Dex
15 +1 at 4 = 16


Int
15


Wis
16


Cha
13





Feats:


Source
Feat


Flaw
Exotic Weapon Prof. Elven Thinblade


Level 1
Improved Sigil Aesh


Lvl 1 Ftr Bonus
Weapon Focus Long Sword


Lvl 2 FB
Dwarven Armour Prof. (RoS)


Lvl 3
Power Attack


Lvl 4 FB
Weapon Spec. LS


Lvl 6
Cleave (my DM likes to throw trash mobs our way)


Lvl 9
Improved Crit. LS





In the short time that I have been an avid reader of these forums, I have seen much scorn for the fighter class and even more praise for the Warblade class.
What I am wondering is if it is feasible to swap out the Fighter levels for levels of Warblade? And if so, how would I go about doing so?
I like having a character with high AC and decent to good damage but am open to suggestions.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So... the big issue is feats. Warblade doesn't give very many, though it does give actual class features and maneuvers/stances, which are better than feats. You won't be able to get everything you want in terms of the weapon focus and whatnot; you might only just be able to get proficiency with your weapon and armor, and focus. But, past that, you'll have actual class features.

[Thiyr]

I'd say it would work pretty well, just because fighter is only really giving you those feats. If you don't have it already, you can find the warblade here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2). You can also find the rulestext for their maneuvers here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a). It's...actually pretty easy, in part because its hard to make poor choices for a warblade. Replacing most of your fighter levels would definitely cover you.

A few things I'd like to note, however:

First: You need at least one fighter level or similar if you intend to stick with what you have. Warblade doesn't get tower shield proficiency OR heavy armor proficiency. Crusader should also provide proficiencies for you

Second: Unless your DM is houseruling it, you can't take dwarven armor proficiency, as that requires you to be a dwarf. You could just take exotic armor proficiency given how rarely most people change the type of armor they wear, but...Honestly, I wouldn't suggest it. Full plate is solid AC-wise. If you REALLY want more AC, Mechanus Gear will probably do you better. More AC and no feat required, but it drops your speed a bit more. If you want to get extra obscure, there's Thaalud Stone Armor, from the Anaurach: The Empire of Shade module, p108. Heavy armor, +12(!) AC, and standard move speed penalties for heavy armor. 2,800 gp, +0 max dex, -8 ACP. But you don't really want to waste feats if you can avoid it.

Third: Why the thinblade? Again, you're using a feat, but you're not really getting a whole ton out of it, near as I can see. Little bit better damage than a scimitar, and you can finesse it, but your strength is high enough to not care about the finesse angle. Any other reasons? Might be better off for you to just use a simpler weapon, esp given the loss of fighter feats.

Fourth: Just as a warning 'cause I know a lot of people forget this, the tower shield gives a -1 penalty on all your attack rolls, even if you're proficient with it. Also, they're made of wood, so you can't normally make them of mithril, iirc. I could be wrong on that last bit though.



As far as maneuvers...well, choose ones that you think sound cool. Honestly, that'll probably get you by. If you really want more advice, you may want to check out the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction).

[SinsI]

1) Take a look at Warblade's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction)
2) What are the other characters in your party? How optimized are they?

[Irk]

I know you said good AC and decent to good damage, but there are so many ways to accomplish both of these that it would be better to give a more specific idea of what you would like your character to be able to do. Alternatively, as others have pointed out, the handbook can be quite helpful.

EDIT: also, be aware that Shadowsharp will not stack with Improved Critical.

[Kantolin]

A pair of nits to pick...


Fourth: Just as a warning 'cause I know a lot of people forget this, the tower shield gives a -1 penalty on all your attack rolls, even if you're proficient with it.

It's actually a -2 on all your attack rolls even if you're proficient. Sucks, but there's not much you can do about that.


Also, they're made of wood, so you can't normally make them of mithril, iirc

This is true. The Races of Stone /does/ have a Steel Tower Shield, however, so you can base a mythril Tower shield off that one.

[Immabozo]

Feats:


Source
Feat


Flaw
Exotic Weapon Prof. Elven Thinblade


Level 1
Improved Sigil Aesh


Lvl 1 Ftr Bonus
Weapon Focus Long Sword


Lvl 2 FB
Dwarven Armour Prof. (RoS)


Lvl 3
Power Attack


Lvl 4 FB
Weapon Spec. LS


Lvl 6
Cleave (my DM likes to throw trash mobs our way)


Lvl 9
Improved Crit. LS



Instead of exotic weapon proficiency, use the skillful enchantment for the effects of the feat for a +3(?) cost. Cleave is usable, but not strictly needed. Weapon Spec is sub par. Weapon focus is sub par, unles it is a pre-req for something you are doing. Imp. crit can be gotten as a weapon mod (keen/impact)

That leaves imp sigil and PA as the only feats left on that least that cannot be scratch off the list, or gotten through other means. So screw fighter levels, at least any more than 2 if you need more feats. Go straight warblade!

[Ferronach]

Wow! thanks for all the replies!
Time to answer a few questions and ask some more of my own!



Second: Unless your DM is houseruling it, you can't take dwarven armor proficiency, as that requires you to be a dwarf. You could just take exotic armor proficiency given how rarely most people change the type of armor they wear, but...Honestly, I wouldn't suggest it. Full plate is solid AC-wise. If you REALLY want more AC, Mechanus Gear will probably do you better. More AC and no feat required, but it drops your speed a bit more. If you want to get extra obscure, there's Thaalud Stone Armor, from the Anaurach: The Empire of Shade module, p108. Heavy armor, +12(!) AC, and standard move speed penalties for heavy armor. 2,800 gp, +0 max dex, -8 ACP. But you don't really want to waste feats if you can avoid it.


OOps! I did not realize that it was a racial feat.
Where would I find the Mechanus gear?



Third: Why the thinblade? Again, you're using a feat, but you're not really getting a whole ton out of it, near as I can see. Little bit better damage than a scimitar, and you can finesse it, but your strength is high enough to not care about the finesse angle. Any other reasons? Might be better off for you to just use a simpler weapon, esp given the loss of fighter feats.


The thinblade is part of my character's backstory. That and I like the damge to crit range ratio.



Fourth: Just as a warning 'cause I know a lot of people forget this, the tower shield gives a -1 penalty on all your attack rolls, even if you're proficient with it. Also, they're made of wood, so you can't normally make them of mithril, iirc. I could be wrong on that last bit though.


I am aware of the -2 penalty.
Races of the Wild includes a mithral tower shield



2) What are the other characters in your party? How optimized are they?

Some of the group are tier 3-2 while others are not optimized. My current character is a Warforged juggernaut houseruled to wield a huge dwarven waraxe is currently the main damage dealer outside of the casters. I am the most experienced in the group so tend to carry them through alot of situations by OOC discussions but would not mind having a character that is capable of doing some RPing.


be aware that Shadowsharp will not stack with Improved Critical.

Thanks. I noticed that but liked the idea of a permanent crit range expansion.


Instead of exotic weapon proficiency, use the skillful enchantment for the effects of the feat for a +3(?) cost. Cleave is usable, but not strictly needed. Weapon Spec is sub par. Weapon focus is sub par, unles it is a pre-req for something you are doing. Imp. crit can be gotten as a weapon mod (keen/impact)

That leaves imp sigil and PA as the only feats left on that least that cannot be scratch off the list, or gotten through other means. So screw fighter levels, at least any more than 2 if you need more feats. Go straight warblade!

What is the skillful enchantment?
With a Shadow sentinel effects, the base weapon is enhanced via the PrC and does not apply any weapon enchantments

[Thiyr]

Mechanus gear is in Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook, can't remember which.

As far as the thinblade, your call. Personally, I find weapon damage to be mostly unimportant compared to the damage you get from anywhere else, given how quickly it gets overtaken (esp in that case, its only an average boost of 1 damage, less than if you'd taken weapon spec). You may still want to look into other ways to take advantage of it if you're gonna stick with it though, if not just to get more out of the feat.

Skillful is out of complete arcane, a +2 enchantment that makes any wielder of the weapon proficient, as well as making sure you have a minimum of 3/4 BAB with it. The latter point is less useful for you, but...well, even I'd rather spend a +2 bonus on my weapon instead of a feat for proficiency. Feats are decidedly rare, and proficiency just isn't worth it compared to using weapons you're already proficient with 9 times out of 10.

I didn't notice, however, the part where you can't add other enhancements to your umbral blade. That...kinda makes me reevaluate the class. Kinda underwhelming, sadly. For a similar kind of flavor, I'd almost say the Shadowsmith might be more interesting, though again, that's all up to you. Good luck :D

[Ferronach]

Thank-you for all of the feedback!
Now to do a lot of reading and even more homework :)

[Immabozo]

Skillful is out of complete arcane, a +2 enchantment that makes any wielder of the weapon proficient, as well as making sure you have a minimum of 3/4 BAB with it. The latter point is less useful for you, but...well, even I'd rather spend a +2 bonus on my weapon instead of a feat for proficiency. Feats are decidedly rare, and proficiency just isn't worth it compared to using weapons you're already proficient with 9 times out of 10.

I didn't notice, however, the part where you can't add other enhancements to your umbral blade. That...kinda makes me reevaluate the class. Kinda underwhelming, sadly. For a similar kind of flavor, I'd almost say the Shadowsmith might be more interesting, though again, that's all up to you. Good luck :D

Thank you for answering for me. That is my exact reply, but I was away from the computer until now, haha.

I cannot comment on the PrC usefulness, I am unfamiliar with it

[Ferronach]

I cannot comment on the PrC usefulness, I am unfamiliar with it

The PrC seems to have some good stuff going for it. I have never seen a shadow sentinel played and like the flavor of is so feel like giving it a shot.
Hopefully it turns out good :S

[SinsI]

The PrC seems to have some good stuff going for it. I have never seen a shadow sentinel played and like the flavor of is so feel like giving it a shot.
Hopefully it turns out good :S

Looks like it is an NPC prestige class - those are the ones that can't afford good weapons.

And it is likely to have bad synergy with Warblade - a lot of its abilities are already granted by Maneuvers, and you need your Swift actions for refreshing Maneuvers, so you won't be using them on spending Shadow Points.
If you want touch attack, you have it via Diamond Mind's 2nd level maneuver Emerald Blade, and if you want Strength drain, take Martial Study for 3rd level Shadow Hand maneuver Strength Draining Strike (or take a level in Swordsage).

[Ferronach]

Looks like it is an NPC prestige class - those are the ones that can't afford good weapons.

Our DM is very stingy with magical Items sadly and despite having waaaay over WBL in gold (yay for defeating a cult and taking their gold), none of the party have been able to buy anything other than rations....


And it is likely to have bad synergy with Warblade - a lot of its abilities are already granted by Maneuvers, and you need your Swift actions for refreshing Maneuvers, so you won't be using them on spending Shadow Points.
If you want touch attack, you have it via Diamond Mind's 2nd level maneuver Emerald Blade, and if you want Strength drain, take Martial Study for 3rd level Shadow Hand maneuver Strength Draining Strike (or take a level in Swordsage).

So If I were to swap the fighter levels for Warblade, you think I should just forget the PrC (and perhaps dip swordsage)?

[Feint's End]

Seems like you need 4 feats to do what you want (I know some of them can be got another way but I feel op wants to be able to have them around all the time).
Exotic weapon profiency
Power attack
Improved sigil
Improved crit

That leaves you with 2 feats to play around (don't forget warblade gets a bonusfeat) for whatever you want.

Personally I would dip into cloistered cleric to get animal devotion (scaling swift action flight is just great) and travel devotion (swift action movement) and pick up extra turning once or twice. With your charisma you would have 13 turning attempts then. Enough to use animal devotion 4 times and travel devotion 3 times.

Honestly I would just drop the armour stuff ... you have good enough stats so that a mitral breastplate is all you will need and warblades are durable anyways.

[Ferronach]

Seems like you need 4 feats to do what you want (I know some of them can be got another way but I feel op wants to be able to have them around all the time).
Exotic weapon profiency
Power attack
Improved sigil
Improved crit

That leaves you with 2 feats to play around (don't forget warblade gets a bonusfeat) for whatever you want.

Personally I would dip into cloistered cleric to get animal devotion (scaling swift action flight is just great) and travel devotion (swift action movement) and pick up extra turning once or twice. With your charisma you would have 13 turning attempts then. Enough to use animal devotion 4 times and travel devotion 3 times.

Honestly I would just drop the armour stuff ... you have good enough stats so that a mitral breastplate is all you will need and warblades are durable anyways.

So Warblade: 5, Cloistered Cleric: 1, SS: 3?

[Talya]

For the record, if one is ever...


...wondering if ToB will work for this build...


...and said build involves the concept of hitting opponents with melee weaponry or parts of one's body, the answer is always yes.

[Ferronach]

or parts of one's body

Laughed so hard at this that my Coworkes gave me funny look!
Totaly have the image of a big fat dude hitting thing with his beer belly!!! *Boing!!!*

[Talya]

Laughed so hard at this that my Coworkes gave me funny look!
Totaly have the image of a big fat dude hitting thing with his beer belly!!! *Boing!!!*

Hey, that's the Friar Tuck Monk Unarmed Swordsage concept.

[Ferronach]

Hey, that's the Friar Tuck Monk Unarmed Swordsage concept.

Oh boy!! I might just scrap my build entirely and do that!!!! :smalltongue:

[Feint's End]

So Warblade: 5, Cloistered Cleric: 1, SS: 3?

I wouldn't multi class into swordsage. With just warblade and cloistered cleric you will already be very powerful so you don't really need any of the stuff. A certain reason you would want to pick swordsage?

[Immabozo]

Laughed so hard at this that my Coworkes gave me funny look!
Totaly have the image of a big fat dude hitting thing with his beer belly!!! *Boing!!!*

So not where I thought that post was going

[Ferronach]

I wouldn't multi class into swordsage. With just warblade and cloistered cleric you will already be very powerful so you don't really need any of the stuff. A certain reason you would want to pick swordsage?

OK. I was just going off of what SinsI was saying :S


So not where I thought that post was going

Ahahaha! I did have some "other" thoughts on the matter but I felt that this was the most "forum appropriate" one to mention....

[Immabozo]

Ahahaha! I did have some "other" thoughts on the matter but I felt that this was the most "forum appropriate" one to mention....

true, true, but it doesn't stop me from commenting! haha

[Ferronach]

true, true, but it doesn't stop me from commenting! haha

Hahahah true true :)

[SinsI]

Our DM is very stingy with magical Items sadly and despite having waaaay over WBL in gold (yay for defeating a cult and taking their gold), none of the party have been able to buy anything other than rations....
Only the things that contribute to your ability to solve encounters should count towards WBL. Unspent gold that you can't spend is just a dead weight.


So If I were to swap the fighter levels for Warblade, you think I should just forget the PrC (and perhaps dip swordsage)?
Yes, a mono-warblade doesn't look like it is in any way inferior to that PrC.
And you can dip any amount of other good classes you like. ToB classes are very dip-friendly, since you still increase your Initiator level by 1/2 of your other class levels.

...I wouldn't go for Cloistered Cleric flavor-wise, though, it just screams "bookworm".

[Jeff the Green]

...I wouldn't go for Cloistered Cleric flavor-wise, though.

Depends on whether you can refluff it. You won't be casting spells, so you can just make it "I spent some time learning to channel ki to become really fast and to fly".

[SinsI]

BTW, if you do go with Cleric, consider using Crusader instead of Warblade, for the Codzilla Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby knight Vindicator 10/Contemplative 5 build.
You will be able to use all your gear as is, since Crusader gets the necessary shield and armor proficiencies.

[Immabozo]

BTW, if you do go with Cleric, consider using Crusader instead of Warblade, for the Codzilla Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby knight Vindicator 10/Contemplative 5 build.
You will be able to use all your gear as is, since Crusader gets the necessary shield and armor proficiencies.

I have a feeling the build, player and campaign we are talking about is lactose intolerant. So, minimal if any cheese.

[Ferronach]

I have a feeling the build, player and campaign we are talking about is lactose intolerant. So, minimal if any cheese.

I don't mind it but I think my DM would say no if he even caught a whiff of cheese...

[Immabozo]

I know it's completely counter to everything said thus far, but, have you ever read the War Hulk PrC? it is a lot of fun!

[Ferronach]

I know it's completely counter to everything said thus far, but, have you ever read the War Hulk PrC? it is a lot of fun!

I can honestly say that I have never heard of or seen it. What book is it in?

[Immabozo]

I can honestly say that I have never heard of or seen it. What book is it in?

Book of miniatures. It uses a full round action to attack 4 squares, then at level 4 it becomes a standard action and expressly able to be used on AoO and in a full attack. The cap stone is attacking every square you threaten, with every attack. It is 1 of only 2 classes I know of with a 0 BAB progression, instead a war hulk gains +2 str every level. With the skilled weapon enhancement giving you a 3/4 BAB in addition to the +2 str every level, you can get absurd to-hit, and lots of extra damage on hit!

I usually like to dip war hulk 4 in melee builds that can qualify.

EDIT: I started, but never finished a warhulk handbook, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?281863-War-Hulk-Handbook)

[Ferronach]

Book of miniatures. It uses a full round action to attack 4 squares, then at level 4 it becomes a standard action and expressly able to be used on AoO and in a full attack. The cap stone is attacking every square you threaten, with every attack. It is 1 of only 2 classes I know of with a 0 BAB progression, instead a war hulk gains +2 str every level. With the skilled weapon enhancement giving you a 3/4 BAB in addition to the +2 str every level, you can get absurd to-hit, and lots of extra damage on hit!

I usually like to dip war hulk 4 in melee builds that can qualify.

EDIT: I started, but never finished a warhulk handbook, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?281863-War-Hulk-Handbook)

Huh! Sounds pretty cool! I will have to look into it when i get home tonight XD

[Immabozo]

Huh! Sounds pretty cool! I will have to look into it when i get home tonight XD

I'm not saying its the best class, but it's just fun! I had the best defense I have ever had on a melee-type on my war hulk. Knockback + reach + PA + leap attack + Shocktrooper + a stupid high str + a decent dex + combat reflexes. I was hitting someone and after every hit I was throwing around something like a D20 +46 bull rush (where I dont move). If my AoO hit (and reach gave me many) they were going FLYING across the battlefield. And each attack hit 3 squares.

That DM liked phalanxes. It took my war hulk one round to destroy the formations! lol. a block of something like 24-30 guys, 6 rows going about 4 or 5 deep. Jump over them, land in the middle (he ruled that the 4 in the squares under me were pinned) and then split my attacks on either side, and the three hit were flung back into the next 3 units, using shock trooper to trip them all. End my turn surrounded by 12 prone units, 4 pinned and the outside units going to provoke one of my 6 AoO as soon as they run into range, just throwing the one(s) that provokes it, using shock trooper, into his friends and get a trip attempt on both.

I hated that DM, for other reasons, but I loved that character SO much. So very fun to play. And the other players were amazing.

One guy was naked for the first 3 weeks, until he put on armor, but still wore no pants. He didn't roll a single attack roll in the several months that we played together and he was one of the most effective characters in that campaign.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Book of miniatures. It uses a full round action to attack 4 squares, then at level 4 it becomes a standard action and expressly able to be used on AoO and in a full attack. The cap stone is attacking every square you threaten, with every attack. It is 1 of only 2 classes I know of with a 0 BAB progression, instead a war hulk gains +2 str every level. With the skilled weapon enhancement giving you a 3/4 BAB in addition to the +2 str every level, you can get absurd to-hit, and lots of extra damage on hit!

I usually like to dip war hulk 4 in melee builds that can qualify.

EDIT: I started, but never finished a warhulk handbook, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?281863-War-Hulk-Handbook)

What's the other 0-BAB class?

[Immabozo]

What's the other 0-BAB class?

I've been trying to remember ever since I posted this. I remember someone showed it to me, but I cant remember where. Although it is entirely underwhelming, I remember that.

[Ferronach]

One guy was naked for the first 3 weeks, until he put on armor, but still wore no pants. He didn't roll a single attack roll in the several months that we played together and he was one of the most effective characters in that campaign.

o.O and how did that work?

[Andezzar]

With the skilled weapon enhancement giving you a 3/4 BAB in addition to the +2 str every level, you can get absurd to-hit, and lots of extra damage on hit!
Other tricks include Divine Power (sets BAB to character level) and taking the War Hulk levels after level 20 (Epic BAB is +1/2 epic levels for everyone).

[Immabozo]

o.O and how did that work?

A very high bluff check that he used every turn and a very creative imagination. He bluffed 1/2 an ambush party into thinking he was kidnapped and that they needed to rescue him, then they brought him into the castle we were on our way to storm and he bluffed the baron and his generals into giving him a group of 25 orcs, leaving to attack the prince (who hired us) and then turned around, bribed the orcs into working for him and then met up with us and we stormed and took the castle, thanks to the orcs that were now fighting for us.

Another time he bluffed a demon into thinking he was on the demons side and just sat there for the whole combat pickpocketing everything off the demon to even the odds a little bit.

In the opening combat of the campaign, he bluffed a commoner to come into the fight, then bluffed the leaser of the attacking (not attacking us) group into killing the commoner, then wasting his lay on hands to bring the commoner back.

At some point we ended up in the Abyss and he freed a titan and he bluffed the titan into believing he was a minor deity and had the titan doing his bidding.

It was utterly hysterical

EDIT:


Other tricks include Divine Power (sets BAB to character level) and taking the War Hulk levels after level 20 (Epic BAB is +1/2 epic levels for everyone).

wow, I forgot about divine power!

[Ferronach]

A very high bluff check that he used every turn and a very creative imagination. He bluffed 1/2 an ambush party into thinking he was kidnapped and that they needed to rescue him, then they brought him into the castle we were on our way to storm and he bluffed the baron and his generals into giving him a group of 25 orcs, leaving to attack the prince (who hired us) and then turned around, bribed the orcs into working for him and then met up with us and we stormed and took the castle, thanks to the orcs that were now fighting for us.

Another time he bluffed a demon into thinking he was on the demons side and just sat there for the whole combat pickpocketing everything off the demon to even the odds a little bit.

In the opening combat of the campaign, he bluffed a commoner to come into the fight, then bluffed the leaser of the attacking (not attacking us) group into killing the commoner, then wasting his lay on hands to bring the commoner back.

At some point we ended up in the Abyss and he freed a titan and he bluffed the titan into believing he was a minor deity and had the titan doing his bidding.

It was utterly hysterical

That sounds like it was an incredibly entertaining group hahahaha

[Immabozo]

That sounds like it was an incredibly entertaining group hahahaha

With the exception of the DM, it was the funnest group to be in that I have ever had the pleasure of playing with. The DM was all kinds of bad news.

But the player was once asked by the DM what his name was and his response was "it changes depending on the situation"

In that campaign, I would have two shotted an adult blue dragon, at level 10 or 12, but it was already the second round when I did 16D8 +127 damage. It was like my team just won the superbowl. The other fighter and I were so happy, haha.

but, sorry for derailing your thread.

[Ferronach]

sorry for derailing your thread.

All good hahaha

[Immabozo]

So, back on topic, how is your new character shaping up?

[Ferronach]

So, back on topic, how is your new character shaping up?

It isn't as of yet...
I have had to work on a party member's character... Yay for convincing the new (super low op) player to let me "help" him with his warlock. Sadly he is not letting me move him from blastlock to clawlock...

[Immabozo]

It isn't as of yet...
I have had to work on a party member's character... Yay for convincing the new (super low op) player to let me "help" him with his warlock. Sadly he is not letting me move him from blastlock to clawlock...

not too familiar with warlocks. As far as I understand, they are sorta like archers, but fire magic instead of arrows

[Ferronach]

not too familiar with warlocks. As far as I understand, they are sorta like archers, but fire magic instead of arrows

Warlocks are a ton of fun!
They are essentially a mobile turret of ranged touch attack doom!
That and they can become in your face touch attack pummelers!

[Immabozo]

Warlocks are a ton of fun!
They are essentially a mobile turret of ranged touch attack doom!
That and they can become in your face touch attack pummelers!

hmmmmm, interesting.

Let us know what you decide on your character.

[Andezzar]

It isn't as of yet...
I have had to work on a party member's character... Yay for convincing the new (super low op) player to let me "help" him with his warlock. Sadly he is not letting me move him from blastlock to clawlock...While claw or glaivelocks can be fun, those are not the only options for a fun build. Pixie sniper and warlock/Ur-Priest come to mind.

Clawlock does not get touch attacks. Glaivelock does.

[Ferronach]

While claw or glaivelocks can be fun, those are not the only options for a fun build. Pixie sniper and warlock/Ur-Priest come to mind.

Clawlock does not get touch attacks. Glaivelock does.

Huh! I thought they did, oh well! Yet another thing learned from GITP forums :)

I have turned him into the eldritch blast equivalent of a magefire cannon set to full auto with rapid fire... Now i just need him to be level 12 for quickened SLA muahahaha.

As for mine I will hopefully have time this weekend to sit down and plan the build out :)

[Immabozo]

As for mine I will hopefully have time this weekend to sit down and plan the build out :)

also, I highly reccomend taking a psionic race (there is a psionic race that gets a feat like humans) even if you dont plan on going with a psionic class. It opens you up to the psionic feats, and there are some good ones! I think one level of psy war will let you take share pain, then you get a psicrystal and share pain with it (no need for vigor, you have neither the space, nor the pp to use it) and effectively gain hardness 8.

[Ferronach]

also, I highly reccomend taking a psionic race (there is a psionic race that gets a feat like humans) even if you dont plan on going with a psionic class. It opens you up to the psionic feats, and there are some good ones! I think one level of psy war will let you take share pain, then you get a psicrystal and share pain with it (no need for vigor, you have neither the space, nor the pp to use it) and effectively gain hardness 8.

My DM is very new and as such is strongly opposed to Psionics.

[Immabozo]

My DM is very new and as such is strongly opposed to Psionics.

Dont take psionics then! There are psionic feats that need you to have a psionic PP pool, but aren't psionic powers themselves, just really good feats. You should ask. There is one that lets you resolve (one?) attack as touch attacks, feats to get extra damage (2d6 or 4d6) and a really cool feat to deflect ranged attacks


Return Shot [Psionic]

You can return incoming arrows, as well as crossbow bolts, spears, and other projectile or thrown weapons.
Prerequisite

Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Fell Shot, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit

To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus and have at least one hand free. Once per round when you would normally be hit by a projectile or a thrown weapon no more than one size category larger than your size, you can deflect the attack so that you take no damage from it. The attack is deflected back at your attacker, using the attack bonus of the original attack on you. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to return a shot is a free action.
Special

If you also have the Deflect Arrows feat, the deflected attack is made with the original attack bonus plus your Dexterity bonus.

and there are many more. Not psionic powers, but very cool feats.

[Ferronach]

Update!! I have a preliminary build!!

Crusader 1, Warblade 5, Shadow Sentinel 3

Feats: Power attack, Pounce, Leap attack, steadfast determination, endurance, improve sigil aesh

Stance: Leading the charge, Leaping Dragon stance

Maneuvers: Moment of perfect mind, leading the attack, wall of blades, battle leaders charge, white raven tactics, ironheart surge

I think I did the stances/maneuvers correctly but please let me know if I did not :)

[Andezzar]

Pounce is not a feat. I see no race (assuming illumina from the improve sigil feat) or class in your build that would give you pounce.

You should specify which maneuvers are crusader maneuvers and which come from the warblade levels and when you took which class levels. This would make it easier to find out if there are any flaws in your selection.

[Immabozo]

Pounce is not a feat. I see no race (assuming illumina from the improve sigil feat) or class in your build that would give you pounce.

there is a very crappy version of pounce as an epic feat. But you are correct, there is no feat called pounce, and no pre-epic feat that gives you pounce. There are variou ways to get it, but it's more of an investment than a feat.

[Jeff the Green]

there is a very crappy version of pounce as an epic feat. But you are correct, there is no feat called pounce, and no pre-epic feat that gives you pounce. There are variou ways to get it, but it's more of an investment than a feat.

There are a couple of crappy non-epic ones too. Bestial Charge requires you to charge immediately after wildshaping, Catfolk Pounce requires you to charge a flat-footed foe, and Lion Tribe Warrior requires that you use a single light weapon (or make one attack with each of two light weapons).

[Immabozo]

There are a couple of crappy non-epic ones too. Bestial Charge requires you to charge immediately after wildshaping, Catfolk Pounce requires you to charge a flat-footed foe, and Lion Tribe Warrior requires that you use a single light weapon (or make one attack with each of two light weapons).

I didn't know of those ones. You forgot, for catfolk pounce, you must be catfolk. But with quick draw and flick of the wrist (?)

I thin Spirit Lion totem Barb is the best route. Pounce as a class feature instead of fast movement. Not a bad 1 dip for a melee!

And rage can be very good with optimization and it opens up certain PrC for you.

But a druid can get so many better options for pounce than wasting a feat on that!

[Ferronach]

Oh darn! I though it was XD
I didn't realise that it mattered when I took what maneuver/stance, I thought that the 5M from crusader and 6M from warblade meant that I have a total of 6 to play with no?

[Andezzar]

Oh darn! I though it was XD
I didn't realise that it mattered when I took what maneuver/stance, I thought that the 5M from crusader and 6M from warblade meant that I have a total of 6 to play with no?For 2nd level maneuvers/stances you need an IL of at least 3, for 3rd level maneuvers IL 5 etc. So it is important when you took what for which class. ILs are also separate for each initiator class. With Crusader 1, Warblade 5, Shadow Sentinel 3 you will have IL 5 for the crusader and IL 7 for the warblade.

Additionally the method for readying/receiving and recovering maneuvers are separate too. So if a school is used by warblade and crusader both you might consider putting the ones you most definitely want to have access to in any given encounter into warblade.

[Immabozo]

Oh darn! I though it was XD
I didn't realise that it mattered when I took what maneuver/stance, I thought that the 5M from crusader and 6M from warblade meant that I have a total of 6 to play with no?

there is a mechanic for replacing a limited number of lower level maneuvers with higher ;eve; ones once every so many levels. But I am unfamiliar with it.

But it is like making a caster. Just because you are level 10, doesn't mean all your spells can be spell level 5.

[Ferronach]

Thanks guys!

Guess its back to the book(s) for me to figure this stuff out :S

EDIT:
Changed the build around a bit. I dropped Crusader for Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian XD

FEATS: Power Attack, Endurance, Improved Sigil Aesh, Leap Attack, Steadfast Determination, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus (any slashing)

FLAWS: Shaky, Frail

Maneuvers and Stances: In a post below

[Andezzar]

You do not qualify for Shadow Sentinel. You need Weapon Focus (any slashing weapon).

I would drop Endurance and Steadfast Determination for Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper.

[Immabozo]

I would drop Endurance and Steadfast Determination for Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper.

I disagree. Endurance and Steadfast determination shore up a weakness most melee types suffer. Weak will saves. And those are almost always saves you really need to make.

imp. bull rush and shock trooper are more of what you already do. While strong, they can wait to be built in

[Andezzar]

I disagree. Endurance and Steadfast determination shore up a weakness most melee types suffer. Weak will saves. And those are almost always saves you really need to make.As a Warblade he has access to the Concentration skill and Moment of the Perfect Mind and Action before Thought


imp. bull rush and shock trooper are more of what you already do. While strong, they can wait to be built inI would agree on that if you were talking about leap attack. Shock Trooper give s you more options and significantly increases your damage potential by removing the attack penalty of Power Attack.

[Immabozo]

As a Warblade he has access to the Concentration skill and Moment of the Perfect Mind and Action before Thought[quote]

You have a very good point.

[QUOTE=Andezzar;17737882]I would agree on that if you were talking about leap attack. Shock Trooper give s you more options and significantly increases your damage potential by removing the attack penalty of Power Attack.

Especially with the above point, you are right. I am not knocking the extreme usefulness of Shocktrooper, just saying that will saves are more important, because making those saves, will be the deciding factor of whether or not you are here next round, or even if you turn on your friends next round

[Ferronach]

You do not qualify for Shadow Sentinel. You need Weapon Focus (any slashing weapon).

And this is why you should not make a character when you are incredibly tired hahahaha (thanks for spotting that btw)
I took the flaw "Shaky" but was thinking that "Murky eyed" may work as a second? Thoughts?


As a Warblade he has access to the Concentration skill and Moment of the Perfect Mind and Action before Thought

I would agree on that if you were talking about leap attack. Shock Trooper give s you more options and significantly increases your damage potential by removing the attack penalty of Power Attack.

As MoPM and AbT are maneuvers I was concerned that when facing multiple casters I would run out of them before I was able to recover my maneuvers.
I will indeed be working towards Shock Trooper, once I have more feats to choose (this I why I like fighters... so many feats available...)

[Andezzar]

I took the flaw "Shaky" but was thinking that "Murky eyed" may work as a second? Thoughts?I would not take murky eyed unless you have a way of consistently ignoring miss chances. As second flaw I'd take none, frail or vulnerable.


As MoPM and AbT are maneuvers I was concerned that when facing multiple casters I would run out of them before I was able to recover my maneuvers.
I will indeed be working towards Shock Trooper, once I have more feats to choose (this I why I like fighters... so many feats available...)That is a risk, yes. However you would probably also have Iron Heart Surge to recover from most debilitating effects.

Being able to resist SoLs is nice, but removing the caster of those SoLs usually is better. With Shock Trooper this gets a lot easier. Also defensive abilities are just less fun IMHO.

[Immabozo]

Being able to resist SoLs is nice, but removing the caster of those SoLs usually is better. With Shock Trooper this gets a lot easier. Also defensive abilities are just less fun IMHO.

*Gollumn voice* It has a point, Precious.

[Ferronach]

*Gollumn voice* It has a point, Precious.

Yessss Precious... It does have a point....

All joking aside though. My group has a fair amount of "up close and personal" characters to dish out the damage.
Unfortunately most of them are really new to this wonderful game and as such, I feel that being more survivable is better for the party.
Obviously charging in and slaughtering the bad guys in no time flat is really good but I do not want to outshine the rest of the party (fairly low op other than myself and the warlock I helped build...)

I may also be able to get away with the inattentive flaw.... my DM likes to group Spot Search and Listen into one "perception" skill (despite only spot and listen being perception RAW)

[Ferronach]

Finally figured out maneuvers and stances that I feel will work out:

Level 1:

Stance: Leading the charge
Maneuvers: Moment of perfect mind, Charging Minotaur, Leading the Attack
Level 2:

Maneuver: Steel Wind
Level 3:

Maneuver: Battle Leader's Charge
Level 4:

Stance: Tactics of the Wolf
Level 5:

Maneuver: White Raven Tactics

Decided on Frail as a second flaw. 1 HP/level is not so bad (provided I manage to keep the good rolls)