Best Way to Stretch PP?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Building a gestalt character - Psion on one side, Binder on the other. Starting at 5th level on the psion side, 1st on the binder. Trying to figure out the best ways to stretch my batteries as far as possible - either bonus PP, or tactics/feats/other stuff that gives me more.

Race is non-negotiably human, definitely sticking with mostly Binder on the other side, though I could be talked into taking a dip or two.

Right now, the best idea I have is the Meditant PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827c) (Mind's Eye), and the Psychic/Deep Psychic Meditation Feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827b). This is a 4-feat investment to get me into a 9/10 manifesting PrC, at the end of which I'll get a maximum of 17*Manifester Level temporary PP per day, given out in incredments of my mainifester level. (The feats alone give me 7*manifester level, which would pretty close to double my PP reserves at 5th level.) The PrC would also let me get other buffs instead of the PP.

Our DM is very Feat-generous (Bonus at 1st, at least 1 flaw, feats every odd level, every multiple of 6 and another at 20), but 4 feats and a manifester level still hurt. There a better way to do this? No infinite loops or extreme cheese allowed.

[Irk]

I saw that someone had a psionic anima mage somewhere, that could work. The easiest way to get more PP is Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion for regenerating PP (but not an infinite loop, just something to do between fights). Also, don't forget Psionic Vestige (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a)s, many of which grant extra PP.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I saw that someone had a psionic anima mage somewhere, that could work. The easiest way to get more PP is Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion for regenerating PP (but not an infinite loop, just something to do between fights). Also, don't forget Psionic Vestige (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a)s, many of which grant extra PP.

Hmm... not sure if I understand that feat combo. So... I could expend my psionic focus to invest essentia in that feat (How much? What's the maximum?) and that gives me PP... does this let me re-generate unlimited PP per day? Do I need to actually take an incarnum class?

[sambouchah]

Why worry about spreading PP when there's the feat Psionic Talent? It gives more PP each time you take it. So 2 the first time, 3 the second, 4 the fifth, and so on. That's not always the best option though(works well in my group because they aren't optimizers). You have Bonus Power Points for a high ability score, Racial Power Points(from Phrenic maybe? Unless that's not allowed or too high LA for you), add in Cognizance Crystals, a Manifester Weapon(+5 PP per day) or Mindfeeder(Temporary PP on Critical). Although I'm not the most Psionically gifted Playgrounder out here, so someone else can probably help a lot more!

[Irk]

Hmm... not sure if I understand that feat combo. So... I could expend my psionic focus to invest essentia in that feat (How much? What's the maximum?) and that gives me PP... does this let me re-generate unlimited PP per day? Do I need to actually take an incarnum class?

Sorry, I should have explained. Essentially, Psycarnum infusion says that you can treat an essentia receptacle as if it were full, allowing you to get around the once per day restriction of Azure Talent (an essentia receptacle). By continuously gaining and expending your psionic focus, you could generate a large number of PP by treating Azure Talent as the target of the feat, but only (effectively) in down time, and not an overpoweringly large amount. It will give you a kind of "buffer pool" of PP, though, before you start to expend any of the PP you have from class levels. Better might be the Psionic Vestiges, the lowest level one granting you 13 PP instantly.

EDIT: actually, that reminds me, you could do 50 +1 Manifester arrows for the price of a +1 Manifester Longsword, thereby gaining 50 PP (gone as soon as you use them, which is why I like mine more - not too strong and re-usable).

EDIT 2: Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook) for ideas as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sorry, I should have explained. Essentially, Psycarnum infusion says that you can treat an essentia receptacle as if it were full, allowing you to get around the once per day restriction of Azure Talent (an essentia receptacle). By continuously gaining and expending your psionic focus, you could generate a large number of PP by treating Azure Talent as the target of the feat, but only (effectively) in down time, and not an overpoweringly large amount. It will give you a kind of "buffer pool" of PP, though, before you start to expend any of the PP you have from class levels. Better might be the Psionic Vestiges, the lowest level one granting you 13 PP instantly.
Hmm... so it's Move Action (attain psionic focus), free action (Psycarnum Infusion), Standard Action (use power), end turn, lose remaining pp? Not too shabby, especially as a backup. On the other hand, it's not very much pp:

1st-5th level: 2 pp
6th-11th level: 4 pp
12th-17th level: 6 pp
18th-20th level: 8 pp


Up to you if it's worth it. It's sort of like a Reserve feat, I guess, only slower but more versatile.

FreakyCheeseMan-- Incarnum is probably the most dip-friendly subsystem out there. You need levels in a Meldshaping class to have decent amounts of essentia, or to bind soulmelds, but this trick doesn't require any of that. Meld capacity is a function of character level, and both feats only require Con 13.

[Irk]

Hmm... so it's Move Action (attain psionic focus), free action (Psycarnum Infusion), Standard Action (use power), end turn, lose remaining pp? Not too shabby, especially as a backup. On the other hand, it's not very much pp:

1st-5th level: 2 pp
6th-11th level: 4 pp
12th-17th level: 6 pp
18th-20th level: 8 pp


Up to you if it's worth it. It's sort of like a Reserve feat, I guess, only slower but more versatile.

FreakyCheeseMan-- Incarnum is probably the most dip-friendly subsystem out there. You need levels in a Meldshaping class to have decent amounts of essentia, or to bind soulmelds, but this trick doesn't require any of that. Meld capacity is a function of character level, and both feats only require Con 13.
Yeah, I've always liked Psycarnum Infusion. I think in theory, though, you could just repeat that process out of combat a whole bunch of times until you were at a good amount. Maybe. Regardless, I'll probably use it next time I play in a mid-op low level game as a psionic character.

Unrelated to that, I was wondering if I could include Grod's Law in the D&D timeline? If you allowed it, I would just need a link to the thread or a date.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Hmm... so it's Move Action (attain psionic focus), free action (Psycarnum Infusion), Standard Action (use power), end turn, lose remaining pp? Not too shabby, especially as a backup. On the other hand, it's not very much pp:

1st-5th level: 2 pp
6th-11th level: 4 pp
12th-17th level: 6 pp
18th-20th level: 8 pp


Up to you if it's worth it. It's sort of like a Reserve feat, I guess, only slower but more versatile.

FreakyCheeseMan-- Incarnum is probably the most dip-friendly subsystem out there. You need levels in a Meldshaping class to have decent amounts of essentia, or to bind soulmelds, but this trick doesn't require any of that. Meld capacity is a function of character level, and both feats only require Con 13.

Hmm... that's three feats to make that work, but yeah, it could potentiall shave 2 points off the cost of every ability I use, more down the line, and let me keep using low-level powers all day long. Assuming you're right about it allowing multiple uses of Azure Talent per day, which doesn't quite make sense to me.

On the other hand, the Meditant line would basically just double my power points per day. More or less. (Less, given how high my int will eventually be...) 4 feats and a 10-level PrC, though.

Does anyone know for certain if a temporary boost to INT gives you power points? Or if you could maintain a buff for, say, 8 hours, would that be enough?

[Irk]

Hmm... that's three feats to make that work, but yeah, it could potentiall shave 2 points off the cost of every ability I use, more down the line, and let me keep using low-level powers all day long. Assuming you're right about it allowing multiple uses of Azure Talent per day, which doesn't quite make sense to me.

On the other hand, the Meditant line would basically just double my power points per day. More or less. (Less, given how high my int will eventually be...) 4 feats and a 10-level PrC, though.

Does anyone know for certain if a temporary boost to INT gives you power points? Or if you could maintain a buff for, say, 8 hours, would that be enough?
The way the Azure Talent bit works is that Psycarnum INfusion specifically circumvents the 1/day restriction by TREATING it as if it had been filled rather than actually filling it. Thus, the result is the same as if essentia was actually invested.

I think that if you boosted your intelligence, it would allow you to gain extra PP, so that works.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The way the Azure Talent bit works is that Psycarnum INfusion specifically circumvents the 1/day restriction by TREATING it as if it had been filled rather than actually filling it. Thus, the result is the same as if essentia was actually invested.

I think that if you boosted your intelligence, it would allow you to gain extra PP, so that works.

I could read that either way, I think... the grammar seems ambiguous.

Azure talent says "Once the amount of essentia invested is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours."

Psycarnmum says "is treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal to its maximum essentia capacity. " - that wording seems ambiguous to me. It could be "Had just had essentia invested in it" or "Had already been filled with Essentia".

So, I could see someone reading that, "Okay, Azure Talent now has its maximum essentia invested in it. It already did, and was already gonna remain so for 24 hours. You already gained the power points the first time, though, so this does nothing."

It's not a particularly abusive combo, though.

[Psyren]

1) Psionic Talent, even with the bonus you get for taking it multiple times, isn't really worthwhile. It's not terrible, it's just weak - and manifesters have too many better feats competing for those slots. You need Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment, then there's Expanded Knowledge (you will likely need more than one of this), plus Hidden Talent and metapsionics and Overchannel (+ Talented) and the great Incarnum stuff etc. You just won't have enough spare feats over your career to really get any meaningful benefit out of PT.

2) Part of the problem might be that you are "nova-ing" when it is not necessary to do so. One of a psion's/wilder's strengths is that they can power up and blaze through a tough encounter more easily than other casters, but this comes at the cost of burning through more resources in that fight than they might have needed to, and ending up starved for later battles. Instead, play smart, focus on powers that weaken rather than debilitating or annihilating the enemy in one shot, and don't augment all the way up unless you feel like you have to. For example, if you and the barbarian are targeting the same foe and you know he's going to go next, vaporizing that foe in one shot might be overkill - hitting it with a weaker and cheaper blast so that the barbarian can finish it off with his swing might be better.

3) Rely more on powers that don't need to be augmented to be effective. Entangling Ectoplasm for instance works great at low levels and rarely needs any augment (or more than one) to be useful in a variety of encounters.

4) Meditant is a good option (have you read my handbook? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?224909-3-5-Zen-Psionics-Mastering-the-Meditant)) particularly with all the free feats you're getting so early on, so if it fits your concept I'd say go for it. Soul Manifester would be an even better option (you get lots of tricks that don't use a drop of PP) except you're playing gestalt.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, I've always liked Psycarnum Infusion. I think in theory, though, you could just repeat that process out of combat a whole bunch of times until you were at a good amount. Maybe. Regardless, I'll probably use it next time I play in a mid-op low level game as a psionic character.
I don't think the bonus stacks. Psycarnum Infusion lasts one round; after that, the "essentia" invested in Azure Talent vanishes and, presumably, the bonus PP go with it.


Unrelated to that, I was wondering if I could include Grod's Law in the D&D timeline? If you allowed it, I would just need a link to the thread or a date.
:smallredface: The quote-link arrow thingie in my signature goes to the original post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518). (I initially called it Grod's Fallacy; eggynack later suggested (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17617914&postcount=32)that Grod's Law was a better name)

[Flickerdart]

It's pretty high level, but Soul Crystals (MoI) are great for PP-saving because they let you effectively carry leftover PP over from one day to the next.

There are also a couple of infinite-PP tricks if the fancy strikes you.

[Irk]

I don't think the bonus stacks. Psycarnum Infusion lasts one round; after that, the "essentia" invested in Azure Talent vanishes and, presumably, the bonus PP go with it.
Ah, I see, that's definitely right.


:smallredface: The quote-link arrow thingie in my signature goes to the original post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328767-More-realistic-D-amp-D-Economy/page4&p=17613518#post17613518). (I initially called it Grod's Fallacy; eggynack later suggested (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17617914&postcount=32)that Grod's Law was a better name)
Awesome! adding now.


It's pretty high level, but Soul Crystals (MoI) are great for PP-saving because they let you effectively carry leftover PP over from one day to the next.
Ooh, I forgot about this, it's actually a really good one, especially if you have something that lets you gain more PP like Azure Talent.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

1) . You need Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment, then there's Expanded Knowledge (you will likely need more than one of this), plus Hidden Talent and metapsionics and Overchannel (+ Talented) and the great Incarnum stuff etc. You just won't have enough spare feats over your career to really get any meaningful benefit out of PT.

Yeah... even with the extra feats, I don't have a lot of this. Right now I've got Psychic Meditation, Deep Psychic Meditation X3, Improved Binding, Psycrystal Affinity, Expanded Knowledge: Astral Construct, Empower Spell and Metapower. (Debating changing those last two for Boost Construct and something else.) Not sure how much I care about Overpower/Talented, unless I decide to drop Meditant (I love it, but it's so costly...), in which case I'm efinitely going Archaic Initiate.


2) Part of the problem might be that you are "nova-ing" when it is not necessary to do so.

Heh, game hasn't started yet - but yeah, I'm trying to be careful about that. Got Entangling Ectoplasm, and I'm thinking maybe Meditant Physical Bonuses + Vigor + Share Pain + Binder Stuff + Metamorphosis might let me gish?


3) Rely more on powers that don't need to be augmented to be effective. Entangling Ectoplasm for instance works great at low levels and rarely needs any augment (or more than one) to be useful in a variety of encounters.

Yeah... right now, most of my powers are defensive or utility... vaguely worried I might have made myself awesome at not dying, and not useful for much else. Energy Ray + Entangling Ectoplasm + Energy Wall + Time Hop are my only offensive options.


4) Meditant is a good option (have you read my handbook? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?224909-3-5-Zen-Psionics-Mastering-the-Meditant)) particularly with all the free feats you're getting so early on, so if it fits your concept I'd say go for it. Soul Manifester would be an even better option (you get lots of tricks that don't use a drop of PP) except you're playing gestalt.

Reading that now. I still don't really understand Incarnum, though I've taken a few stabs at it. I'm hoping my Binder side will give me some stuff to do between throwing powers around, though I'm not always certain what.

EDIT: Yikes! Missed a couple facts about meditant, was badly off about how it worked. Definitely not 7-17*ML per day, more like.. hmm..

3*ML - 5*ML per day. Which is still good, but not nearly as good as I thought it was. On the other hand, the Deep/Intense ones might be a little better, actually - I was reading that as 2 or 3 activations per activation, not per awakening.

Might still be worth it, but that makes it a lot more tempting to go with Anarchic initiate after all, and spend those 4 feats on empower/extension/metapower/etc.