Spectral Dragon spell - Will foes attack it?

[Miss Disaster]

I'd like to use the Spectral Dragon (http://dndtools.eu/spells/dragons-of-faerun--26/spectral-dragon--1113/) spell for my sorceror. Note this key quote: A spectral dragon cannot be attacked or harmed by physical attacks, but dispel magic, disintegrate, a sphere of annihilation, or a rod of cancellation affects it.

This gives a very vague set of guidelines for a DM to determine how his attacked monsters will "react" to the Spectral Dragon. Does anybody have an idea as to how a DM should have his monsters and NPC react to an attack by this spell?

[heavyfuel]

I'd like to use the Spectral Dragon (http://dndtools.eu/spells/dragons-of-faerun--26/spectral-dragon--1113/) spell for my sorceror. Note this key quote: A spectral dragon cannot be attacked or harmed by physical attacks, but dispel magic, disintegrate, a sphere of annihilation, or a rod of cancellation affects it.

This gives a very vague set of guidelines for a DM to determine how his attacked monsters will "react" to the Spectral Dragon. Does anybody have an idea as to how a DM should have his monsters and NPC react to an attack by this spell?

Strict RAW, if he can't be attacked, monsters won't attack him simply because he's not a valid target. In a real situation, everyone gets a Spellcraft check to identify the spell. If the succeed, then it's not attacked as they it won't be harmed. If they fail, maybe they attack it once before realizing it's invulnerable to the attacks. Note that even if they fail the check, intelligent creatures will probably focus on the caster that just summoned the shadow dragon in hope killing it when the caster dies.

[Thiyr]

Its a perfectly valid target! Heck, it gives an AC for touch attacks. Its just that any other kind of attack has no way to affect it. I mean, a magic missile or other creature-only spells couldn't target it, but that's a good way for people who don't make the spellcraft check to get it across that it isn't an actual creature.

So ultimately, I think it depends on their knowledge of the spell. If its something that wouldn't know at all? They'd probably react like its a dragon, I'd say. Attack it, maybe flee from it, etc. It's almost like an illusory dragon, in that regard. A worg might turn tail, the ogre might try to smash it, the T-rex would try to eat it. For people that realize that the shadow-y sorta-dragon is a spell effect might ignore it, reasoning that hey, it isn't reacting to anything. Might chalk it up to miss chance (like, say, a shadow has), might figure it'll disappear when that person who cast a spell and is concentrating can't concentrate on it anymore. Up to DM call at that point, I might personally put it up to a wisdom check just so its a bit more fair to the player. For people that make their spellcraft check, they would probably just try and break the caster's concentration. Hit them with a big rock, and the dragon'll go poof so why worry about it

[heavyfuel]

Its a perfectly valid target!

Is it? I mean, it's right there as clear as day "can't be attacked". I chalk it up to stupid RAW, but how are you going to attack something that can't be attacked? Not that I would ever rule it that way

[Miss Disaster]

Thanks for your replies so far. I'm AFB at the moment, but I'll quote all the relevant text lines from the spell description later on that help make this spell so controversial and debate-worthy.

Keep in mind, I think the DoF book did not have errata as it was one of the last 3.5 published with the lead-up to 4E taking up all of WotC's emphasis and attention. Also to note, those last few Forgotten Realms sourcebooks were notoriously poorly-written from a game mechanics & crunch standpoint (although highly-rated in their fluff content). So the fact that this spell has some highly interpretive and confusing text does not surprise.

The debate on this spell's text is kinda what I expected. Great insight though, fellas .... Thank you. :-)

[Miss Disaster]

Okay, as promised, here are the 3 specific lines of text in the spell description that don't really seem to coherently mesh together in concert with 3.5 Rule Mechanics - or with each other for that matter.


The mass itself is not dangerous to the touch, and creatures can pass through it without suffering harm.

A spectral dragon cannot be attacked or harmed by physical attacks, but dispel magic, disintegrate, a sphere of annihilation, or a rod of cancellation affects it.

Its AC against touch attacks is 9 (10 minus size bonus for a Large creature). It can pass through solid objects, though it has no ability to see through them.


Plus, as Heavyfuel and Thiyr have both noted, the DM has to basically do a lot of judgement calls on the fly in regards to his monsters and NPCs getting attacked by a Spectral Dragon. It really is like an "illusory dragon" (as Thiyr put it). For the spellcaster's opponents that can't make a Spellcraft Check, there's a whole myriad array of possibilities in how the Spectral Dragon will get addressed. A lot of them will likely have to do with the intelligence of monster/NPC as well we as the combat's environmental conditions.

Anybody else have any insight on DM'ing this spell?

[Miss Disaster]

Anybody? :smallfrown:

[icefractal]

The "can't be attacked" seems to directly contradict the "touch AC" part, so I would drop it. I think the intent was to clarify that it wasn't subject to non-damaging attacks like trip/grapple/whatever.

So:
1) Enemies get a Spellcraft check. If they make it, they're not going to attack it because it would be pointless.
2) Otherwise, it's the same as any other summoned creature. They might attack it, they might attack the caster, depends on what their tactics are.
3) Once they try to hit it, they may not know it's not really a creature, but they would know that their attacks passed through it harmlessly. So probably, they stop attacking it, although if you're really lucky they might figure it's incorporeal and try again with a force effect.

[heavyfuel]

The "can't be attacked" seems to directly contradict the "touch AC" part, so I would drop it. I think the intent was to clarify that it wasn't subject to non-damaging attacks like trip/grapple/whatever.

So:
1) Enemies get a Spellcraft check. If they make it, they're not going to attack it because it would be pointless.
2) Otherwise, it's the same as any other summoned creature. They might attack it, they might attack the caster, depends on what their tactics are.
3) Once they try to hit it, they may not know it's not really a creature, but they would know that their attacks passed through it harmlessly. So probably, they stop attacking it, although if you're really lucky they might figure it's incorporeal and try again with a force effect.

Which is pretty much what I suggested (though I did forget the "it might be incorporeal" bit). This is what I'd consider a fair ruling because I'm pretty sure that's what most players would do, so there's no reason critters won't do it as well.

Alternatively, they might think the Dragon is just an image, given that it makes no sound, and ignore it completely. Non-smart (Int -, 1, or 2) creatures that have something like Scent, Blindsight also might realize straight away that the dragon isn't real.

All in all, it's up to DM to decide. The only absolute part of the rules is the "can't be attacked" part, which is just moronic. If you're the player - which it seems you are - talk to your DM OoC, present your argument, and ask how he's gonna rule the spell. If you're the DM, give your players the standard Spellcraft check to identify the spell, and if they fail just say "You see a dragon made out of shadows, about as large as a horse, appear in front of you" and now it's up to them on how to react.

Edit: Something that might work IF you haven't yet told the rest of your party about the spell, is to ask the DM to throw the spell at the party (minus you, of course), have them automatically fail any Spellcraft checks, and see how they react. Then he can use this as a guideline reaction.

[Miss Disaster]

Thank you Heavyfuel and Icefractal. You've given my DM and I some sound advice and additional considerations for using this thought-provoking & subjectively-complex spell in our current shared campaign.

I was thinking too, that 'Duration: Concentration' spells like this one tend to have a little more oomph to them to compensate for the sacrifice of a spellcaster's ongoing Standard Actions. So it's not really an abuse to expect that the Spectral Dragon form is gonna get an opponent to waste an attack (or multiple attacks - for certain monsters) on something that is dishing out a painful beatdown. Assuming, of course, that opponent didn't make its Spellcraft check.

Clearly, if WotC had published errata for DoF, this spell would've been a prime candidate for clarification errata. It's a very cool and potentially dangerous spell. Especially for a Shar-worshipping Wizard (who get a boost to STR damage and CL according to the spell) with the Extraordinary Concentration feat. :-)