Astral Construct Menu abilities

[Renen]

Does lvl 9 AC really get "Two abilities from Menu C"?

[Immabozo]

no. You get one menu ability. However, you can take a feat to get a second menu ability

[Requiem_Jeer]

Does lvl 9 AC really get "Two abilities from Menu C"?

Yes. Seeing as how the power doesn't get any better then that, it's a good way to separate the level 9 from it's fellows as the top tier.

Here's a quote:


Two abilities from Menu C, construct traits, damage reduction 15/magic, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision

[Renen]

and here we have 2 conflicting statements...

[Lightlawbliss]

from expanded Psionics Handbook:

9TH-LEVEL ASTRAL CONSTRUCT
Huge Construct
Hit Dice: 19d10+40 (144 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 33 (+25 natural, –2 size), touch 8, flatfooted
33
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+38
Attack: Slam +28 melee (2d6+16)
Full Attack: 2 slams +28 melee (2d6+16)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Two abilities from Menu C, construct
traits, damage reduction 15/magic, darkvision 60 ft., lowlight
vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 11, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

[Immabozo]

huh, I stand corrected. I admit I was wrong

[Renen]

There's a reason I asked this question. And simply quoting might not be enough.

Reason:


A manifester creating a 7th-level, 8th-level, or 9th-level astral construct can choose one special ability from this menu. Alternatively, the astral construct can have two special abilities from Menu B. (One or both of the Menu B choices can be swapped for two choices from Menu A.)

[Lightlawbliss]

There's a reason I asked this question. And simply quoting might not be enough.

specific trumps general. Also, post this on dysfunctional handbook.

[Dimers]

Reason: "A manifester creating a 7th-level, 8th-level, or 9th-level astral construct can choose one special ability from this menu."

Um. Well, technically, that's true, it's just that the manifester of a 9th-level construct can also choose another one. :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

Just a consideration, since I'm currently away from book, but is it possible that one is in reference to manifesting an Astral Construct via the power, and the other is in reference to an Astral Construct encountered "in the wild," as it were?

[Rubik]

Just a consideration, since I'm currently away from book, but is it possible that one is in reference to manifesting an Astral Construct via the power, and the other is in reference to an Astral Construct encountered "in the wild," as it were?Astral constructs "in the wild" are a result of a psion manifesting the Astral Construct power.

The only ways the psion will be more than 1 round/lvl away from it are if he either took levels in the constructor PrC or he Teleported away.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Interesting. I have a shaper psion in my game who uses this power a lot, this could come up if the game actually goes all the way to 20...

It looks like level 8 to 9 is already a pretty solid upgrade, going from Large to Huge size. So I'm not sure if it *needs* an extra menu C option. I think...I'll houserule it that if Astral Construct is augmented to 19 pp (2 beyond what you need for a 9th level construct), it gets the extra menu C option.

[J-H]

Astral construct is hardly an imbalanced power. Keep in mind that it has relatively low HP and saves for its level.

Compare the stats on a level 9 Astral Construct to the stats on the Elder Elementals (Summon Monster IX, notionally an equivalent power).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm

Most of the Menu C options aren't that great.

[StreamOfTheSky]

HP and saves (and AC, which the construct is very good at compared to the elementals...and all those tasty construct immunities...my psion player rather likes it when a stinking cloud or the like is put up since his pets can fight in it just fine) really isn't s important for a summon...they exist to be expendable, and any smart enemy doesn't waste effort/resources on them anyway. What matters is offense, and on that front... the only elder elemental that does nearly equal damage is the earth (or fire, if the foe somehow still has no fire reist), who is extremely limited at higher levels in what foes he can actually go after and is slow, half as fast as the base level 9 construct before menu. The construct also features +12 or more Str over any of the elementals, allowing for better maneuver use or grappling (and Constrict is a menu option).

Then you add the possible menu abilities like pounce, and...yeah, I think the construct wins offensively. Which is what matters for a summon. He also has more utility, thanks to the menu options, when needed.

I mean, constructs don't give you as much choice as the entire summoning lists, so I get that they should have a bit more straight combat power, that's fine. I'm just saying...it's a plenty good power already, there's a reason it's one of the most choices for Expanded Knowledge. It doesn't need "help." But I'm ok with giving a reason to augment it further beyond 17 pp, that seems fair.

[Requiem_Jeer]

Stream, the extra menu option on the 9th level construct is not so egregious of a power boost that it's worth changing. As a general rule, you should only bother instituting a house rule if it's something worth changing.

[Immabozo]

HP and saves (and AC, which the construct is very good at compared to the elementals...and all those tasty construct immunities...my psion player rather likes it when a stinking cloud or the like is put up since his pets can fight in it just fine) really isn't s important for a summon...they exist to be expendable, and any smart enemy doesn't waste effort/resources on them anyway. What matters is offense, and on that front... the only elder elemental that does nearly equal damage is the earth (or fire, if the foe somehow still has no fire reist), who is extremely limited at higher levels in what foes he can actually go after and is slow, half as fast as the base level 9 construct before menu. The construct also features +12 or more Str over any of the elementals, allowing for better maneuver use or grappling (and Constrict is a menu option).

Then you add the possible menu abilities like pounce, and...yeah, I think the construct wins offensively. Which is what matters for a summon. He also has more utility, thanks to the menu options, when needed.

I mean, constructs don't give you as much choice as the entire summoning lists, so I get that they should have a bit more straight combat power, that's fine. I'm just saying...it's a plenty good power already, there's a reason it's one of the most choices for Expanded Knowledge. It doesn't need "help." But I'm ok with giving a reason to augment it further beyond 17 pp, that seems fair.

Remember, the tier system rates versatility highest priority over combat effectiveness. Better in combat, but limited versatility and options, over the greater options of summon monster line is something to be considered.

Then again, having 9 spell levels worth of power (summon monster I - IX) rolled up into one first level power is a nice feature.

And a level 9 AC can make one mean grappler. Huge size, high str, imp grab, constrict, fly, pounce. Makes for a great grappler. And there are other options, although that is probably the best

[StreamOfTheSky]

Then again, having 9 spell levels worth of power (summon monster I - IX) rolled up into one first level power is a nice feature.

And a level 9 AC can make one mean grappler. Huge size, high str, imp grab, constrict, fly, pounce. Makes for a great grappler. And there are other options, although that is probably the best

Yup.

Imp. Grab comes for free with Constrict, probably why it's a menu C. Fly and pounce come from B. Then (if you're using the "2 menu C interpretation" and Boost Construct, of course), you can also add Extra Attack and something else from B....perhaps Muscle for +4 Str. Heck, if you're ok with crappy flight, you can swap the menu B flight for speed 20 Fly and then have another menu A to choose say...Trip. Then the construct is huge with str 47, has constrict and imp. grab and trip on every attack, has 3 attacks, and pounce and (slow) flight.

Yeah...doesn't seem to be hurting to me, I built for grappling there so those aren't even necessarily the ideal choices (un-purgable invisibility is pretty nice, for example) I think making the psion pay another 2 pp / wait another 2 levels for that extra menu C option is just fine.
And the RAW is unclear/conflicting, so any ruling you make will be a houserule. I just opted to pick something between the two extremes of "only 1" or "only 2."

[Immabozo]

Yeah...doesn't seem to be hurting to me, I built for grappling there so those aren't even necessarily the ideal choices (un-purgable invisibility is pretty nice, for example) I think making the psion pay another 2 pp / wait another 2 levels for that extra menu C option is just fine.
And the RAW is unclear/conflicting, so any ruling you make will be a houserule. I just opted to pick something between the two extremes of "only 1" or "only 2."

I agree. The "specific trumps general" doesn't apply here, because they are both specific. But if text and the table are in conflict, doesn't text trump table? Cause text says "7 through 9... one menu option from menu C" but then the table says the level 9 AC gets "two options from menu C"

[StreamOfTheSky]

I agree. The "specific trumps general" doesn't apply here, because they are both specific. But if text and the table are in conflict, doesn't text trump table? Cause text says "7 through 9... one menu option from menu C" but then the table says the level 9 AC gets "two options from menu C"

Yup. I don't think there is one true RAW answer for the reasons you stated. I posited a compromise between the two and apparently that upset some people because apparently my experience of astral construct already being a very good power is abnormal.

[Immabozo]

Yup. I don't think there is one true RAW answer for the reasons you stated. I posited a compromise between the two and apparently that upset some people because apparently my experience of astral construct already being a very good power is abnormal.

It is an extremely powerful power! If people disagree, they dont know how to use it. I've used level 1 ACs, twinned to make an effectively "no-save loose your turn" because two storm giants wasted their turn insta-gibbing them, so my team could get ready. I've used a fully pimped out one to create a meat shield between me and a combatant that was dead set on hunting me down, then I stun locked him with other powers and my AC killed him. I've used a flying grappler build to bring down a flyer so the BSFs could feel useful.

And so much more. And it takes up a level 1 power slot. Any power that takes up a level 1 slot, but is 9 spell levels of utility rolled up into the one 1st level power, is going to be AMAZING.

It is one of the best summons in the game, utility, power, it scales and it requires minimal resource investment (a level 1 power slot). One of my top picks.

I like your suggestion, but I dont think the added power level is needed. Personally, it is an amazing power and if you want to get more out of it, you can take the Constructor PrC, or the Boost Construct feat, both give +1 menu choice from the appropriate menu. Another one would make it just unbelievably way too good.

[Psyren]

FWIW, Ultimate Psionics does specify that the 9th level AC does indeed get 2 menu C abilities.


I agree. The "specific trumps general" doesn't apply here, because they are both specific. But if text and the table are in conflict, doesn't text trump table? Cause text says "7 through 9... one menu option from menu C" but then the table says the level 9 AC gets "two options from menu C"

Except they're not in conflict, so the rule about text trumping table doesn't apply. The 9th-level one does get one option from Menu C... and then a second option, per the table, as Dimers pointed out above. These are not mutually exclusive, because you have to select one before you can select two.

[Immabozo]

FWIW

First, what does the acronym stand for?


Except they're not in conflict, so the rule about text trumping table doesn't apply. The 9th-level one does get one option from Menu C... and then a second option, per the table, as Dimers pointed out above. These are not mutually exclusive, because you have to select one before you can select two.

The specifics of getting one and then the specifics of getting two are in conflict tho. Yes, to count to two, you must first count to one. One is right out, unless it is to then count to two

Specifying "7-9 get one" vs "7 and 8 get one and level 9 gets 2" is a big difference.

Then again WOTC isn't know for the clarity of their madness

[Phelix-Mu]

Then again WOTC isn't know for the clarity of their madness

Now submitting titles for the tell-all story of Wizards of the Coast's acquisition of Dungeons & Dragons.

Wizards of the Coast: Clarity of Madness.

[Renen]

Now submitting titles for the tell-all story of Wizards of the Coast's acquisition of Dungeons & Dragons.

Wizards of the Coast: Clarity of Madness.

Narrated by:
http://media.salon.com/2013/06/jon_stewart32.jpg

[Psyren]

First, what does the acronym stand for?

For What It's Worth. (Basically, Pathfinder made them a lot clearer.)



Specifying "7-9 get one" vs "7 and 8 get one and level 9 gets 2" is a big difference.

Not really. Sure one syntax is less ambiguous, but they both still can mean the same thing.

[Immabozo]

For What It's Worth. (Basically, Pathfinder made them a lot clearer.)

Not really. Sure one syntax is less ambiguous, but they both still can mean the same thing.

Thank you for clarifying.

And you are right, I guess. But it is certainly a grey area. I can see it either way.

[Dimers]

The 9th-level one does get one option from Menu C... and then a second option, per the table, as Dimers pointed out above.

Clearly I did not make my text sufficiently blue. :smalltongue: My actual stance on this, as with most rules problems, is just "ask the DM and go with whatever she thinks". Though now, having seen StreamOfTheSky's solution, I'd be inclined to promote that to the DM.

[Immabozo]

Clearly I did not make my text sufficiently blue. :smalltongue: My actual stance on this, as with most rules problems, is just "ask the DM and go with whatever she thinks". Though now, having seen StreamOfTheSky's solution, I'd be inclined to promote that to the DM.

it is a good solution, personally I dont think the power needs the upgrade, but it is certainly a workable solution

[Psyren]

Clearly I did not make my text sufficiently blue. :smalltongue: My actual stance on this, as with most rules problems, is just "ask the DM and go with whatever she thinks". Though now, having seen StreamOfTheSky's solution, I'd be inclined to promote that to the DM.

As I play Pathfinder anyway and they made it clear that the "2 menu C abilities" is intended, that is what I will be promoting.

And no, I don't consider AC to be overpowered at all. 9th-level Astral Constructs are great grapplers, sure, but recall that grappling itself is a tactic that can be shut down by a single 4th-level spell/power. Once you've gotten to 9th-level spell territory grappling has already begun losing its luster. Even if it still works, SMIX and SNAIX get you Colossal-sized grapplers, as well as toys like SLAs (e.g. at-will walls, teleportation, healing, illusions etc.) and various supernatural abilities as well. And don't even get me started on Gate.

You can customize an AC to be a great bruiser or mount, but that's about all they can be. Magical summons, and especially called creatures, can do so much more.

[Immabozo]

As I play Pathfinder anyway and they made it clear that the "2 menu C abilities" is intended, that is what I will be promoting.

And no, I don't consider AC to be overpowered at all. 9th-level Astral Constructs are great grapplers, sure, but recall that grappling itself is a tactic that can be shut down by a single 4th-level spell/power. Once you've gotten to 9th-level spell territory grappling has already begun losing its luster. Even if it still works, SMIX and SNAIX get you Colossal-sized grapplers, as well as toys like SLAs (e.g. at-will walls, teleportation, healing, illusions etc.) and various supernatural abilities as well. And don't even get me started on Gate.

You can customize an AC to be a great bruiser or mount, but that's about all they can be. Magical summons, and especially called creatures, can do so much more.

Like a sharp sword, Psyren, you have a good point

[Captnq]

Huh.

A victim of copy-pasta I believe. They updated the construct stats in Expanded, but just copied over the text on how to use them. Since the Stats on the ACs is printed AFTER the copy-pasta, the construct stats are Cannon.

And updated in the Psionomicon. Good catch.

[Rubik]

the construct stats are Cannon.My Expanded Psionics Handbook has yet to explode.

[Psyren]

Like a sharp sword, Psyren, you have a good point

Well, ah... thank you :smallredface:


My Expanded Psionics Handbook has yet to explode.

What you did there, I see it :smalltongue: