XP for summoned creatures

[questionmark693]

I'm aware that the rules say you don't do it, and the justification is that the creatures are already considered into the CR of the summoner. But if the party fights a focused summoning character....it just feels unfair to not give them extra XP for expending extra resources. Am I totally off track for considering giving them extra XP (not the full amount by CR) for killing summons during a fight?

EDIT: Suppose I should've mentioned the group I DM and myself are fairly low op players....we like in combat healers, monk is a decent class low op. I tend to rules lawyer, but Im the only one, which is why Im the DM.

[Arael666]

Depends on each case IMHO. My party, ie, is facing the believers of a Thrallherd (they just don't know it yet), so I'm giving xp and treasure as usual for them.

[awa]

It depends on how the encounter is structured a bit but in general spending an action to cast summon monster is no different then using it to cast fire orb and really shouldn't be worth extra xp.

[questionmark693]

My only issue with that line of logic is that a fireball does damage once. For a focused summoner, its a creature that's grappling, tripping, or otherwise doing damage for at least ten rounds...which is not only damage, but can be very disabling. I feel like that's very much more disabling than a fireball is.

EDIT: For context, that is what this fight is-the party going against a druid focusing heavily on summoning.

[eggynack]

My only issue with that line of logic is that a fireball does damage once. For a focused summoner, its a creature that's grappling, tripping, or otherwise doing damage for at least ten rounds...which is not only damage, but can be very disabling. I feel like that's very much more disabling than a fireball is.

Perhaps, but that speaks more to the superiority of some spells over others, and to the high power nature of magic in general, than to the idea that summons should grant XP. By your logic, you should also grant XP when a wizard tosses out a black tentacles, or when this druid casts a control winds, or even when some sorcerer makes use of polymorph. That spell is awesome, after all. Fireball only works once, and that is its failing, but it's far from the only spell in the game. Granting XP for defeated summons, and not granting XP for defeating entangles, just comes across as somewhat arbitrary.

[Flickerdart]

My only issue with that line of logic is that a fireball does damage once. For a focused summoner, its a creature that's grappling, tripping, or otherwise doing damage for at least ten rounds...which is not only damage, but can be very disabling. I feel like that's very much more disabling than a fireball is.
So what? There are plenty of spells that have durations over time, and do damage and induce status effects - many of them much more troublesome than prone. Would you give out XP for players who "defeat" an acid fog or black tentacles?

[Arael666]

My only issue with that line of logic is that a fireball does damage once. For a focused summoner, its a creature that's grappling, tripping, or otherwise doing damage for at least ten rounds...which is not only damage, but can be very disabling. I feel like that's very much more disabling than a fireball is.

EDIT: For context, that is what this fight is-the party going against a druid focusing heavily on summoning.

By that logic you should give extra xp if the wizard spam spells like solid fog, black tentacles, grease, sleep, etc..

By the way, summons are easily countered, any cleric worth his salt should have protection from evil available from scrolls or a wand.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm aware that the rules say you don't do it, and the justification is that the creatures are already considered into the CR of the summoner. But if the party fights a focused summoning character....it just feels unfair to not give them extra XP for expending extra resources. Am I totally off track for considering giving them extra XP (not the full amount by CR) for killing summons during a fight?

EDIT: Suppose I should've mentioned the group I DM and myself are fairly low op players....we like in combat healers, monk is a decent class low op. I tend to rules lawyer, but Im the only one, which is why Im the DM.
Depends on the context.

If it was summoned before the battle? Then yes, go ahead and give them the XP for it (not that it'll be much, Summons tend to be low CR). It was part of your encounter design.
If it was summoned in battle? Then no, don't give them the XP for it, as it's no different than any other spell the opponent could have used during the fight.

[eggynack]

By the way, summons are easily countered, any cleric worth his salt should have protection from evil available from scrolls or a wand.
Eh, some summons are reasonably easily countered. Protection from evil has a decently high action cost, just at the outset, and it only protects one character at a time, which limits its viability against summons in general. Beyond that, pro evil only stops bodily contact, which leaves a whole class of summons that work just fine. That can mean rashemi elemental/greenbound summons in general, with their cones of cold and walls of thorns respectively, along with all of the summons with native SLA's, like oreads and pixies, and creatures with less spell-like ranged attacks, like yellow musk creepers, spore bats, or hell, even fossergrims if you want to go really deep. That's all just druid stuff, and summoning of the summon monster variety provides even more options.

Edit:
Depends on the context.

If it was summoned before the battle? Then yes, go ahead and give them the XP for it (not that it'll be much, Summons tend to be low CR). It was part of your encounter design.
If it was summoned in battle? Then no, don't give them the XP for it, as it's no different than any other spell the opponent could have used during the fight.
I wouldn't put the barrier in that place at all. You can easily use something like SNA before a battle by a few rounds and go in with it, after all, and just as there wasn't much difference between providing XP for summons and providing XP for black tentacles, so too is there little difference between providing XP for pre-combat summons and providing XP for pre-combat buffs. Instead, I would put the XP barrier where the summoned creature has its own sentience and will independent of that of the caster. Thus, planar binding, planar ally, gate, and the like could feasibly provide XP, but summon monster and summon nature's ally never will, because you're basically calling down an image, rather than the real creature. Once we're talking about a creature that was called up a few days ago, then it might make sense to start thinking about XP.

[questionmark693]

I guess I just hadn't put enough thought into it, that makes a lot of sense. I feel ok with not doing extra xp for summons, thank you everybody :)

[137beth]

The only time I'd give xp for summoned creatures is if the summoner isn't in the encounter (they summoned stuff and immediately fled, e.g., Redcloak and the silicon elemental. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html))

Even then, I'd be inclined to give slightly less for a summoned creature than if it was the actual monster, because a summoned creature has weaknesses that the normal creature doesn't have: lack of further summoning abilities/teleportation, protection from evil, dispel magic, or just waiting out the spell's duration. Fighting a summoned creature on its own is more like facing a single-use trap of summon monster.

[JesusCraig]

I'm of the camp that you give xp based on how difficult the encounter was to overcome. If something kept them from killing the summoner as quickly as you expected and they therefore had to deal with more summons or buffed summons that you weren't expecting, by all means award them extra for there additional effort.

That said, don't award xp because they made poor choices and had a tough time because of it, nor should you penalize them when they make choices you don't expect and steamroll an encounter.

[Dimcair]

Or (when you play without Level adjustments) just give out level ups whenever you feel like it. For low OP players I don't think anybody would be super annoyed by it.

[Talothorn]

IMHO, the danger with giving extra xp when enemies summon minions is: do you also divide the party xp including their summoned minions? That extra 400 xp for beating that summoned monster isn't as tasty when the total is now divided by 6 instead of 4.

[Requiem_Jeer]

IMHO, the danger with giving extra xp when enemies summon minions is: do you also divide the party xp including their summoned minions? That extra 400 xp for beating that summoned monster isn't as tasty when the total is now divided by 6 instead of 4.

This is an excellent rule of thumb: is the tactic something that would mean the user gets less xp because they're sharing it more ways or whatever? Then the PCs get xp for it when the NPC does it.

[NickChaisson]

Just do whatever feels the most comfortable for you in your game. As long as you and your friends are having a good time, It really shouldn't matter to much.

[Psyren]

If the enemy burns actions summoning during the fight then no, I wouldn't give extra, because those actions could have been used on a control spell or buffs/debuffs or blasts etc.

If they have a bunch of summons out before the fight starts though, I would consider the fight to be harder, just as I would if they were fighting on favorable terrain, within the radius of Unhallow/Desecrate etc., and increase the XP reward accordingly.

[Jack_Simth]

Edit:
I wouldn't put the barrier in that place at all. You can easily use something like SNA before a battle by a few rounds and go in with it, after all, and just as there wasn't much difference between providing XP for summons and providing XP for black tentacles, so too is there little difference between providing XP for pre-combat summons and providing XP for pre-combat buffs. To an extent you're supposed to do so - 'favorable conditions' are a thing in figuring out CR. If you happen to arrange things such that the party gets no real chance at a decent warning of the encounter, but that the encounter critters do, then it's favorable conditions for the encounter critters (if they've got any short-term stuff they'd pull out, as opposed to long-term stuff that they'd be using anyway or critters that don't have that sort of option) and worth a CR boost. DMG, page 50, Modifying Difficulty.

[eggynack]

To an extent you're supposed to do so - 'favorable conditions' are a thing in figuring out CR. If you happen to arrange things such that the party gets no real chance at a decent warning of the encounter, but that the encounter critters do, then it's favorable conditions for the encounter critters (if they've got any short-term stuff they'd pull out, as opposed to long-term stuff that they'd be using anyway or critters that don't have that sort of option) and worth a CR boost. DMG, page 50, Modifying Difficulty.
Well, sure, but that seems like a different thing than awarding XP based on the CR of the defeated summoned monsters. I think that applying an indirect boost, as Psyren indicated, makes sense, but the direct method makes less sense. Perhaps, at least to some extent, the answer is just that casters should offer more XP for their defeat. There's not much difference between black tentacles and summon monster (though there definitely is some), so one shouldn't offer more XP than the other, but perhaps they should both offer more XP than an average monk of the same level.

[Spore]

Remember that the Summoner can have no Summon Monster SLA in play while the Eidolon is active. And a master summoner is sufficiently weakened for having 1/2 an eidolon in play and a summon monster ACF. Summoned monsters need smart players if optimized because not even a buffed raging barbarian or a pouncing cat wildshape can kill a decently buffed and decked out Dire Lion in one round.

If they knew beforehand (and could've prepared Banishment or simply counterspelled with Dispel Magic), no XP should be awarded. But if they really really struggle. Let your evil summoner laugh at them, summon two batches of creatures and leave. They get XP for the summons but more frustratingly they don't kill the summoner.

[Snails]

The only time I'd give xp for summoned creatures is if the summoner isn't in the encounter (they summoned stuff and immediately fled, e.g., Redcloak and the silicon elemental. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html))

Even then, I'd be inclined to give slightly less for a summoned creature than if it was the actual monster, because a summoned creature has weaknesses that the normal creature doesn't have: lack of further summoning abilities/teleportation, protection from evil, dispel magic, or just waiting out the spell's duration. Fighting a summoned creature on its own is more like facing a single-use trap of summon monster.

A good example would of the first point can be found in the OotS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html). Redcloak summons a Si Elemental. Does the Order get zero xp for a summoned creature OR xp for the defeat of a 17th level Redcloak (RC wants the Order killed, but fails in achieving his goal)? Both answers are equally logical. Both answers feel stupid. So the answer has to be somewhere in between. In terms of difficulty the Si Elemental is as difficult as a Si Elemental, and whether it was summoned does not seem important in gauging its difficulty to defeat.

Your other points are good, too, insofar as a summoned creature might lack certain advantages you would expect of a creature blundered into in its native habitat. Whether it is worth fudging things is up to the DM, of course.

[Sliver]

The problem with Redcloak's elementals is that they aren't really summoned... Summoning spells have a Close range, meaning that the summoner is at least somewhat part of the encounter. Planar Binding and other Calling spells don't have such a restriction and the creatures that they bring should be considered as part of the encounter and not part of the Summoner's power.

[JusticeZero]

You also have the logical extreme cases, such as one a GM suggested to me once.. A long and linear dungeon crawl that would take multiple sessions to work your way through which was actually just a series of situations where a well prepared summoning specialist was dropping somehow delayed summons for the party to fight - two months of dungeon crawling ending each session with the words "Good game, zero XP.."

[eggynack]

You also have the logical extreme cases, such as one a GM suggested to me once.. A long and linear dungeon crawl that would take multiple sessions to work your way through which was actually just a series of situations where a well prepared summoning specialist was dropping somehow delayed summons for the party to fight - two months of dungeon crawling ending each session with the words "Good game, zero XP.."
Well, to be fair, you can kinda do the same thing without summons. I mean, you're not really allowed to use traps, cause those would provide XP, so we're really talking about something like hit and run tactics. You could do pretty much the same with a lot of wizard spells, I think, whether they be cloud kill, or black tentacles, or whatever. As I noted above, this thus seems more like a caster problem than a summoning problem. Casters be crazy, after all.

[some guy]

Something to also take in mind, a lot of summon spells take 1 round to cast, that means they're easier to disrupt than other standard action spells.

[JusticeZero]

Well, to be fair, you can kinda do the same thing without summons... . You could do pretty much the same with a lot of wizard spells, I think, whether they be cloud kill, or black tentacles. .
Other spells don't eat an hour or two of playtime when thrown in the party's direction. The point was a dungeon where the BBEG's main attack was essentially to drain IRL playtime to the point where as far as XP was concerned, the players were in a single fight with a solo Wizard that just happened to, because of HOW the Wizard fought, take three RL months and weeks of game time to finish.

[Psyren]

Well, to be fair, you can kinda do the same thing without summons. I mean, you're not really allowed to use traps, cause those would provide XP, so we're really talking about something like hit and run tactics. You could do pretty much the same with a lot of wizard spells, I think, whether they be cloud kill, or black tentacles, or whatever. As I noted above, this thus seems more like a caster problem than a summoning problem. Casters be crazy, after all.

This raises an interesting point actually - casters can create traps too, like Alarm/Glyph of Warding/Explosive Runes/Symbol of X. A powerful boss caster with time and wealth can blanket an entire labyrinth in these. Wouldn't these be worth XP? So why would they be treated any differently than summoning or calling backup ahead of time?