How Much Would Dragon Disciple Improve If....

[Pyromancer999]

So, one of my friends was mentioning he was playing a Dragon Disciple in a game, planning to max out those levels. I pointed out to him that it wasn't exactly optimal and that he could get draconic flavor. He said he realized that and so did his DM, but he REALLY wanted to be a half-dragon without LA dragging him down(none of the DMs we've ever played with offer LA buyoff).

However, his DM is letting him play a modded version of Dragon Disciple:

At every level the Dragon Disciple class would grant an extra spell, he instead gets a sorcerer level increase, effectively modding it to a 7/10 spellcasting prestige class and making it a lot more viable.

Another friend of ours did the same thing with his DM, except it just increased every even level, making it a 5/10 spellcasting prestige class.

Assuming the Dragon Disciple levels are maxed out, The first variant would give 17th level Sorcerer spellcasting, giving 8th level spells, and the second one 15th, giving 7th level spells, but not sure how much of a tradeoff that is compared to full 9ths.

So, just how much more powerful, more balanced, and/or more viable would the Dragon Disciple be with each variant?

[stack]

It is 7/10 in PF, makes for a viable gish if you mainly want to add some casting to a melee type. Still not a great choice for a pure sorcerer, but that's obvious.

[Pluto!]

Pathfinder-ized Dragon Disciple is much more playable than the normal 3.5 version, but is still rarely optimal for power. Ie. 7/10 casting is a very good fix for the Dragon Disciple's power level. It's reasonably well balanced with existing options, if a little on the weak end, but definitely stronger than the original variety (barring niches like advancing PrC casting beyond their classes' completion, though that's usually not a particularly powerful thing to do with a build).

[DMVerdandi]

I mean, obviously by virtue of it now being a caster and continuing caster...casting, it's going to be better than the original flat abilities class. The original was the prototype to allowing any random character to become draconic, but like many classes in the DMG, it is completely obsolete in the end game.

With all of the options that can make damn near every character draconic in essence for much less, Dragon disciple doesn't age well at all.

I would argue that giving it full caster progression is both fair, and efficient. It's so easy to gain what it gives that coming correct and giving full progression doesn't harm much.

[Kennisiou]

Honestly, in core only dragon disciple's best claim to power is giving you access to natural attacks. A player that takes levels in barb/fighter, a one level sorc dip with a number of flexible first level spells selected (silent image, summon monster 1, etc) is often your best bet to making use of the class. With the changes... That probably is different. Stalwart battle sorceror going into dragon disciple misses out on 9th level spells but otherwise is fine, and it misses the other gish benchmark of 16 or higher BaB. Add a breath weapon, ex natural attacks and ex flight into the mix and you're a gish that doesn't rely on spells or items for some of their most important and necessary tools. That also has a breath weapon. I honestly suggest this wholeheartedly. Maybe consider taking levels of abjurant champion as well somewhere along the line to pump that BaB up and get access to swift abjuration, abjurant armor, and extend abjuration. Greater mage armor + shield (the spell) + disciple natural armor + abjurant armor should give you all the AC you need. Also, talk to the GM about also giving dragon disciple full base attack bonus. It honestly should have it.

[Pyromancer999]

Pathfinder-ized Dragon Disciple is much more playable than the normal 3.5 version, but is still rarely optimal for power. Ie. 7/10 casting is a very good fix for the Dragon Disciple's power level. It's reasonably well balanced with existing options, if a little on the weak end, but definitely stronger than the original variety (barring niches like advancing PrC casting beyond their classes' completion, though that's usually not a particularly powerful thing to do with a build).

Good to know it's not too bad to do, as I was considering making the allowance for my own games.



I would argue that giving it full caster progression is both fair, and efficient. It's so easy to gain what it gives that coming correct and giving full progression doesn't harm much.

Might be not though, because then it's strictly better than Straight Sorcerer 20 and better chassis than most caster-builds, and could even potentially make some gish builds more broken.


Also, talk to the GM about also giving dragon disciple full base attack bonus. It honestly should have it.

I am the GM/DM in this case, as I'm asking about it because I'm the GM and wondering about how it would affect gameplay, as I have had interest in the class once before, but the player decided against it due to lack of progression of caster level.

Wouldn't 7/10 spellcasting and full BAB be a bit broken, though?

[lord_khaine]

I would personally just let him use the PF version and call it a day, i would seriously bet my DMG on that not being the thing that breaks your campaign.

[Pluto!]

7/10 Spellcasting and 10/10 BA wouldn't be particularly broken in the long-run, but it would make 2 levels of Dragon Disciple an auto-dip in tons of gish builds if the casting progression weren't rearranged.

My thought on 10/10 casting on the default shell is similar - I suspect it would make the first 4 levels of Dragon Disciple an auto-include on spontaneous gishes - there's no cost in terms of prerequisites, there are better class features than most of the competing gish classes, and there are few outright better options than full spellcasting (because remember the Dragon Disciple doesn't eat any feats, leaving at least one slot free compared to dipping casting-based competition like MotAO or Fiend Blooded).

In either case, I consider locked choices bad design. Given how cheap the DD's entry is and how pertinent its numeric boosts, attacks and chassis are for frontliners, I'd worry that frontloading actual spellcasting levels would make DD levels an unambiguously optimal move in spontaneous gishes.

[Pyromancer999]

I would personally just let him use the PF version and call it a day, i would seriously bet my DMG on that not being the thing that breaks your campaign.

Think I'll just do something like that then.


7/10 Spellcasting and 10/10 BA wouldn't be particularly broken in the long-run, but it would make 2 levels of Dragon Disciple an auto-dip in tons of gish builds if the casting progression weren't rearranged.

My thought on 10/10 casting on the default shell is similar - I suspect it would make the first 4 levels of Dragon Disciple an auto-include on spontaneous gishes - there's no cost in terms of prerequisites, there are better class features than most of the competing gish classes, and there are few outright better options than full spellcasting (because remember the Dragon Disciple doesn't eat any feats, leaving at least one slot free compared to dipping casting-based competition like MotAO or Fiend Blooded).

In either case, I consider locked choices bad design. Given how cheap the DD's entry is and how pertinent its numeric boosts, attacks and chassis are for frontliners, I'd worry that frontloading actual spellcasting levels would make DD levels an unambiguously optimal move in spontaneous gishes.

So, what exactly are you suggesting, then?

[Pluto!]

So, what exactly are you suggesting, then?
I'm suggesting that there should be at least one dead casting level, and that it should be placed earlier in the class as the class itself gets better. For a full-BA DD in particular, level 1 shouldn't advance casting.

The model I prefer is 8/10 casting (skipping levels 1 and 10) with 3/4 BA, but I think anywhere between 7-9 CL on 3/4 BA chassis or 6-8 CL on a full-BA chassis would leave a power level within the range of non-broken playable published material, provided that caster levels aren't front-loaded.

[Flickerdart]

Dragon Disciple isn't really for casters, it's for people who take a casting dip because they want to get what it's offering (same thing as Arcane Archer). The reason for this is that caster levels are almost never worth losing. Whoop tee doo, you are a half-dragon? A character with 9th level spells can shapechange into a real dragon and eat you.

I mean, take a look at what you're getting at level 15, assuming you dive completely into Dragon Disciple. +8 Strength, which is useless for a caster. +2 to Con, Int, and Cha - all very minor bonuses.+4 AC that's bypassed by touch attacks. A terrible 1/day breath weapon that's useless when you first get it and never becomes relevant. Wings with a (most likely) slow flight speed. Blindsense 60ft. Immunity to one energy type.

At this point, everyone cruises around on phantom steeds at 240ft per round, making the wings useless. Dragonsight (available since level 9) is hours/level dragon senses, at a better range (5ft per CL at 15th = 75 feet) and other, better vision modes have also been available for a long time. Energy immunity (a 7th level spell for sorcerers and wizards) grants immunity to a chosen energy type for a whole day. If you really want the natural AC, elemental body, a 7th level spell, gives +3, also for hours/level.

So if you are a primary spellcaster, the only thing that Dragon Disciple does for you is +8 Strength, which is essentially the one thing from it that you don't need. If you are a gish, you're much better off sucking up 3 LA for Half-Dragon because then you can spend 10 levels on prestige classes that actually make you useful, such as Abjurant Champion.

As a caster, even a gish, I wouldn't take Dragon Disciple even if it was 7/10 casting and full BAB, and honestly I'd have to think about it really hard even if it was 10/10 casting. The opportunity cost of not taking a PrC that actually matters is very high.

[Regissoma]

Not really. There are plenty of gish builds that do full BAB and nearly full spellcaster progression i.e. Abj Champ, Eldritch Knight. A better way to look at it is which of the options you listed and has been suggested fits into the power level of the game. If you have a God Wizard then let the guy have full casting, BAB, and maybe even extra dragon like doo hickeys.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Depends on what kind of optimization level your players are at. BAB is a pretty minor consideration; "good' gishes like Abjurant Champion and Jade Phoenix Mage are good because they have class features that

If your group is mid-op, I'd say that Dragon Disciple would be a decent 9/10 casting class (skipping first level) with full BAB, or 10/10 with medium. 8/10 would still be alright with either BAB; 7 is on the weak side. You might want to increase the prerequs, though-- Draconic Heritage, the Dragonblood subtype, something like that.

An alternative balancing approach would be to kick the BAB up to full and remove the casting prerequisite. That way it becomes a pure melee PrC, where it is decently balanced*.

*Except for the breath weapon. The breath weapon is a disgrace. Let it deal 1d6, 2d6 per class level, and be usable once every 1d4 rounds. Or let it be powered (and powered up) by expending spell slots. Anything but what it is now-- 4d8 damage, 1/day, at level 12 is just pathetic.

[Pyromancer999]

Very interesting thoughts. I may decide to let the Dragon Disciple have full BAB and 10/10 casting after all, adjusted to the power level of the other players in my game. Also think I'll make its breath weapon a 1d6/class level per day regardless, with spell slot power-up options, usable every 1d4 rounds.

Thanks to everyone for their feedback!