Feat question?

[Melcar]

Is it possible to have both Jotunbrud and Wolf-beserker feats? Im unsure wether or not they are both regional feats?

[Flickerdart]

They are both regional feats, but a few ranks in Knowledge: Local for that region make you fulfill the prerequisite.

[Melcar]

Well it says under the Jotunbrud description that only the racial part need to be taken, but in PGtF it says that that book superseeds any other material. Thus meaning that ONLY one regional feat can be had. Also Im unsure wether or not the knowledge local 2 ranks rule apply any more.

[Karnith]

Also Im unsure wether or not the knowledge local 2 ranks rule apply any more.
It does not apply any more (though personally I'd recommend using the old region system over the new one). A character can only have one regional feat now. Per Player's Guide to Faerun:

The region system in this book limits each character to one and only one regional feat that must be selected at 1st level. This rule replaces the one on page 28 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting that allows a character to learn another regional feat for each 2 ranks in Knowledge (local) she has. The regional feats presented herein are designed with the intent that a character has access to only one. Allowing a character to choose more than one may unbalance the system.
Do note that PGtF changed the Rashemi lodge feats so that they are no longer regional feats, though your character must still be able to select regional feats from Rashemen to learn them.

[Melcar]

It does not apply any more (though personally I'd recommend using the old region system over the new one). A character can only have one regional feat now. Per Player's Guide to Faerun:

Do note that PGtF changed the Rashemi lodge feats so that they are no longer regional feats, though your character must still be able to select regional feats from Rashemen to learn them.

So... If jotunbrud is a regional feat, but it says that if feats have racial prerequisite, you dont have to choose the region. Is that no longer in effect? I mean why cant a illuskan grow op in the north... travel to Rashemen and be accepted in a lodge???

And in Una, it says that paying 2 ranks in knowledge local pertaining to another region like Rashemen would open the possibility of choosing feats from that region. But since wolf-beserker is not a regional feat, you would be able to take it, if you payed to 2 ranks... right, if you had first taken Jotunbrud... right?

Sorry... its all very confusing to me...

[sideswipe]

the argument i would put is that faerun is a campaign series. not a main core rules set. and since my group do not include any campaign specific material since it is only relevant in that setting then we would use the old rules.

in my opinion, core rules always superceed side rules. unless you are explicitly using the side rules.

[Karnith]

So... If jotunbrud is a regional feat, but it says that if feats have racial prerequisite, you dont have to choose the region. Is that no longer in effect? I mean why cant a illuskan grow op in the north... travel to Rashemen and be accepted in a lodge???
I am not sure what rule you are referring to here. Are you talking about the old rule where a non-human character could choose either a physical homeland or race as their home region?

Regardless, per the new regional rules, you choose your character's region during character creation; a character cannot have more than one region. Hence, you could have an Illuskan character who was born in the North move to and/or grow up in Rashemen, but said character would have to either pick the North or Rashemen as his or her home region; he or she could not have both, nor could he or she switch from one to the other.

And in Una, it says that paying 2 ranks in knowledge local pertaining to another region like Rashemen would open the possibility of choosing feats from that region.That rule is a re-statement of the old Knowledge (Local) rule from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. It has been superseded by the new regional rules in PGtF; it doesn't work anymore.

But since wolf-beserker is not a regional feat, you would be able to take it, if you payed to 2 ranks... right, if you had first taken Jotunbrud... right?
No. Since a character with Jotunbrud cannot have Rashemen as his or her home region (because it requires being a Human with either Damara or the North as his or her home region), he or she would not be able to select regional feats from Rashemen, and therefore would not qualify to select lodge feats (even though they are no longer regional feats).

If it is that important for a character in a game to have both feats, I'd suggest that you either a) use the old 3.0 rules on regions or b) ignore the region rules entirely and remove all of the Region requirements from feats.

[Melcar]

Thanks so far for your comments.
I still have some issues. It might have been answered before in this thread, but please bear with me.


Firstly: The feat, Jotunbrud has a prerequisite that states: Damaran or Illuskan human. It also says in the introduction to feats in Races of Fearun, page 160, albeit it is a 3.0 book, that:


“If a feat lists a human ethnic group as a prerequisite, you must be a human of that ethnicity. You need not select the region of that ethnic group, or a region where people of that ethnic group live. For example, if a feat lists Illuskan human as a prerequisite, you need only be a human of Illuskan heritage— you do not need to take the Illuskan region, or a region such as The North or the Moonshaes where Illuskans are most commonly found”.

Am I to understand that this section is now void? I dont quite see this being specifically mentioned in PGtF.

Secondly: Since Wolf-Berserker is no longer a regional feat, but requires access to regional feats of Rashemen (regardless of whether you have taken a regional feat or not, and therefor regardless of your number of regional feats). Does this mean that the Berserker lodges have somehow “closed the doors from outsiders? Nowhere in the description of the lodges does it say that you have to come from Rashemen to become a member. Furthermore, in Unapproachable East, Wolf-berserker is mentioned as a [fighter, general] feat. That being said…

Thirdly: is says in PGtF, page 8 that:


“You should check with your Dungeon Master before you assign your character a region that doesn’t fit his subrace. Doing so is not against the rules; indeed, despite the prevalence of certain races in certain areas, Faerun is a diverse land with many well integrated cities and kingdoms. It would not be unreasonable, for example, for a gold dwarf character to have the human region of Cormyr as his native region.“

Later, in PGtF, it says on page 32:

”Each regional feat specifies one or more character race and region combinations as prerequisites. To select such a feat, your character must meet one such set of prerequisites”.


But wouldn't this make it very difficult for anyone getting an actual regional feat, if both region AND race have to fit?

I suggest thus, that Jontunbrud can be taken by any Illuskan or Damaran human, regardless of where they come from. And thus, adhering to the rule about etnicity not following region I suggest that by choosing Rashemen as your Illuskan home region you would be able to pick both, because Wolf-Berserker is not a regional feat.

Do I have this completely wrong? And is I do, I would very much like to hear how someone can choose both. (without DM fiat please)

Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer such a long and dreary post!! :smallsmile:


PS: Personally I think is bull#¤%&, that you have to choose Rashemen as home region to pick berserker lodge feats, when anyone, regardless of race or region can join there ranks... ESPECIALLY, when they are not even regional feats no more.

[Karnith]

Firstly: The feat, Jotunbrud has a prerequisite that states: Damaran or Illuskan human. It also says in the introduction to feats in Races of Fearun, page 160, albeit it is a 3.0 book, that:

Am I to understand that this section is now void? I dont quite see this being specifically mentioned in PGtF.
I don't believe that it has been specifically mentioned, but the PGtF regional rules essentially (and unfortunately) replace the earlier (3.0) region system - see e.g. the sidebar I've been mentioning from PGtF on p. 33:

The region system here updates and replaces the region system and regional feats described in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. However, additional regions and regional feats have also appeared in Races of Faerun and Unapproachable East. Any feat from either of those publications that includes a "Region" line should be considered a regional feat and is subject to the same selection restrictions as other feats with the "Regional" designation.
The aforementioned selection restrictions are the ones that PGtF introduced that revise/redefine the region system (changing regions to be based on race and region, limiting access to regional feats to a single feat selected at first level, and so on). Since PGtF has precedence with its regional system (by virtue of being 3.5 and by mandating that earlier regional feats must use its rules), it "wins" whenever its rules and those of earlier books conflict - in this case, where Races of Faerun would grant an exception to regional requirements and PGtF says that you need both race and region.

Furthermore, in Unapproachable East, Wolf-berserker is mentioned as a [fighter, general] feat
Which is a relic of Unapproachable East using the older, now-obsolete 3.0 regional system. A lot of older regional feats don't make sense in light of the new region system. It's a problem.

Secondly: Since Wolf-Berserker is no longer a regional feat, but requires access to regional feats of Rashemen (regardless of whether you have taken a regional feat or not, and therefor regardless of your number of regional feats). Does this mean that the Berserker lodges have somehow “closed the doors from outsiders? Nowhere in the description of the lodges does it say that you have to come from Rashemen to become a member.They haven't (or, at least, nothing I've read says that they have), but membership in a lodge is not the same as having the associated lodge feat - you can play a character whose home region is, say, the North (and thus have access to Jotunbrud) and later travel to Rashemen and join a berserker lodge. The character would still have the North as his region, though, which would make him unable to select Rashemi regional feats, and thus be unable to select a lodge feat. Alternately, a character could be from, say, the North but grow up in Rashemen and select Rashemen as her region. She could then enter a berserker lodge and select a lodge feat, but because her home region is Rashemen, she would be unable to select Jotunbrud (because it requires either the North or Damara as a region).

Thirdly: is says in PGtF, page 8 that:


Later, in PGtF, it says on page 32:

But wouldn't this make it very difficult for anyone getting an actual regional feat, if both region AND race have to fit?
Well, it makes it difficult for anyone not of the race associated with that particular region (e.g. non-humans from the North, which is a Human region), yes. This is one of the reasons that the new regional rules are silly, and that I suggest disregarding them (either entirely, or in favor of the old system).


I suggest thus, that Jontunbrud can be taken by any Illuskan or Damaran human, regardless of where they come from. And thus, adhering to the rule about etnicity not following region I suggest that by choosing Rashemen as your Illuskan home region you would be able to pick both, because Wolf-Berserker is not a regional feat.
Jotunbrud is still region-restricted - it was updated in PGtF to be a regional feat for the human regions of the North and Damara (see the table entries for the Human regions of Damara and the North, p. 12 and p. 14 respectively), and per the new rules for regional feats you can only select it if your region is either Damara or the North, which would then lock the character out of being able to select a berserker lodge feat. Your character can certainly be an Illuskan from the North and select Rashemen as your home region (with DM consent, of course), but in that case you would be locked out of selecting Jotunbrud as your regional feat, because a character cannot have two regions.

It is very silly for a character to be unable to gain a biological trait because of where they grew up, but that's how it works with the 3.5 regional rules.

PS: Personally I think is bull#¤%&, that you have to choose Rashemen as home region to pick berserker lodge feats, when anyone, regardless of race or region can join there ranks... ESPECIALLY, when they are not even regional feats no more.
Yes, it's pretty silly.