Countercasting and readied actions; am I doing it right?

[Hiro Quester]

I'm trying plan counter casting, to make best use of action economy.

As I understand it ("Black Tactica War Weaver's guide" inspired plan), counter casting can be used very effectively to make enemy caster waste a spell, by at the same time inflicting serious damage that adds to the DC of their concentration check. (This, rather than trying to hurt them before they cast, still letting them cast after your turn).

I have quite a few spells that can be used to interfere with enemy casters, and hopefully kill them outright. But I'm not sure if I understand readied actions property.

My main (DLDR) question: Can I ready a swift action for one triggering event, and a standard action for a different triggering event?


Some context, and a more detailed plan (critiques and suggestions invited, please):

My character is a Bard/Sublime Chord, about to take 19th level (9th and 6th level spells to learn).

The DM's pattern: enemy casters usually try to soften us up with hired help and/or summoned creatures, before arriving to finish us off.

I cast Arcane Spellsurge before or at the beginning of the encounter, which enables spells to be cast quickly (standard action becomes swift, full round becomes standard).

I also make sure I use a tempo bloodspike (enables an extra move action within the next hour, and again if needed but each extra use gives -2 to will saves and wisdom checks).

I also have Harmonics spell persisted, which enables singing a bardic music buff to be a move action).

Also battle magic perception is active, which enables easy detection of enemy casting, +5 to spell craft for identifying spell, and counter spelling as a free action.

I have sculpt spell metamagic, which makes a spell a full round, which with Arcane spell surge becomes a standard action.

I also have a rod of quicken, which enables casting up to 6th level spell as a free action.

Thus in one turn, it seems that I could do the following:


use a bardic music effect as a move action: Doomspeak (lowers all enemy rolls, including saving throws, attack and damage rolls and skill checks by 10).
use the tempo bloodspike to get a bonus move action, but take a swift action instead; casting assay spell resistance at the enemy mage to reduce their SR by 10.
cast a quickened spell as free action to soften up enemy (e.g. disintegrate, or radiant assault that dazes those who fail the saving throw, or energy drain--which I'm considering as my 9th rank spell),
ready my standard action for "if an enemy caster begins casting a spell" to cast a damage-dealing spell to interrupt their casting (sculpted radiant assault (4 10 inch squares, that will also catch other enemies in the effect, and also dazes all those who fail the saving throw, or another disintegrate, sculpted to also catch other enemy casters)
ready my swift action to cast a spell "when an enemy finishes casting but before the spell is resolved" (either tactical teleportation to get friends out of the way of their spell if it's a really bad one, or to finish the enemy mage off with more damage). This can also apply to a different enemy caster if the first caster's spell is interfered with and fails to go off.


I also have Celerity, if I need to get another standard action to finish off the enemy mage.

The DM also allows an action point once per day, which allows an extra turn right after your turn, which I could use to totally finish him off, or do the above readied standard and swift action spells, after taking two shots at the mage.

Can I really do this?

[Flickerdart]

You cannot "downgrade" a move action into a swift action. Additionally, in 3.5, Quicken Spell is a swift action and not a free action, and readying any kind of action is a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready). And finally, Doomspeak is not Bardic Music (a bard class feature specifically listed in the class) but a feat, despite that fact that it feeds off the same use pool.

[Hiro Quester]

You cannot "downgrade" a move action into a swift action. Additionally, in 3.5, Quicken Spell is a swift action and not a free action, and readying any kind of action is a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready). And finally, Doomspeak is not Bardic Music (a bard class feature specifically listed in the class) but a feat, despite that fact that it feeds off the same use pool.

Okay, thanks. I don't know where I read Quicken is a free action, but you're right, SRD says its a swift action. Oh well. So I can quickdraw the rod to cast as a swift action if Arcane Spellsurge is not active. One or the other, not both.

In the Black Tactica Dr_Rocktopus describes readying a standard action and using swift action to get a standard action from the belt of battle. I misunderstood this as reading a swift action. I see now. Thanks.

Doomspeak doesn't list the kind of action it is. The feat description says it enables you to "spend a use of bardic music" to insult the enemy and debuff them. My DM interprets this as a use of bardic music, which the Harmonize spell turns from a standard action to a move action.

So doomspeak as a move action
Assay spell resistance as a swift action
ready a standard action to cast another (metamagiced) spell as a standard action when the enemy caster begins casting.
Use Celerity to get another standard action while doomspeak is still active and cast again.

Is it possible to ready a standard action then cast celerity to ready another standard action?

[Flickerdart]

Is it possible to ready a standard action then cast celerity to ready another standard action?
Maybe. I seem to remember there being some rule about not being able to have two actions readied at once, but I can't find it.

The problem with this plan though is that you have to specify a condition for the action - and if your condition is "someone's casting a spell" then both of them go off at the same time.

Also, as someone who's played in counterspell-heavy games before, no mage worth his salt leads with the spell he wants to really use. The first move, to soak up counter-spells and readied actions, is a swift-action throw-away. Your Celerity should be popped as soon as he casts this and you shoot him in the face, so that you can shoot him in the face when he casts his real spell too. But then you've used up your next round's swift (so no Assay Resistance) and are dazed besides. If he's not dead by this point he can still cast with impunity...

You might be better off using "traditional" counterspell methods. Divine Defiance on a Cleric is just amazing, especially with the Inquisition domain. Combine with Mastery of Counterspelling to bounce countered spells into the enemy's face.

Also consider that ongoing damage really hurts Concentration. Rather than shoot them every time, see if you can just hit them with an ongoing effect.

[Khedrac]

Two things:

Quicken Spells were Free Actions in the PHB because Swift Actions had not been invented - they were updated when Switch Actions came out.

You should be able to take both a swift and a standard action when your ready trigger is met - check with your DM (always assuming you are yet to take a swift action this round).

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks again. I have never tried or seen Counterspelling, so I'm trying to understand the theory before I put it into practice. Being a bard, I don't have any confidence I could know the spell to counter with the same spell they chose to cast.

Ongoing damage like Lingering flames sounds good. But I was planning something like radiant assault that dazes those who fail the save, which can also totally negate their next turn.

So if I have assay SR already cast on the target (it lasts round/level), I could ready a swift action and a standard action. Doc_Rocktopus describes two points at which actions can be readied in the enemy's casting.

Swift action for when that Mage begins casting, and standard readied for when an enemy mage finishes casting but before the spell is resolved.

If the first works, then the spell doesn't happen (and that mage is dazed). The other action can be turned elsewhere.

If it doesn't, the second readied action can be used to counter spell (using Greater Dispel) or casting something like (MM Disguised, to make it a standard action) Tactical Teleportation, to get targets out of the way, and put me right in their face so I can then use celerity to cast Irresistible Dance on the mage.

Does that sound doable?

[Flickerdart]

You have to decide what action you are readying when you ready it. You can't change what you're going to do. If you picked "Greater Dispel when a caster is casting" then that's what's going to happen and you can't change it to Tactical Teleportation.

Unless you are a psion using Synchronicity.

[Psyren]

You have to decide what action you are readying when you ready it. You can't change what you're going to do. If you picked "Greater Dispel when a caster is casting" then that's what's going to happen and you can't change it to Tactical Teleportation.

Unless you are a psion using Synchronicity.

To clarify, you would need augmented synchronicity for this. Regular synchronicity lets you ready an action without specifying a condition - you simply say "I choose to use my readied action now." But you must still specify what action you're readying unless you augment it.

[Hiro Quester]

You have to decide what action you are readying when you ready it. You can't change what you're going to do. If you picked "Greater Dispel when a caster is casting" then that's what's going to happen and you can't change it to Tactical Teleportation.


If you are counter spelling, you get to make a spell craft check to determine the spell being cast, and then can choose the appropriate spell to counter spell with, don't you?

Why doesn't that work for counter casting, too?

[Psyren]

If you are counter spelling, you get to make a spell craft check to determine the spell being cast, and then can choose the appropriate spell to counter spell with, don't you?

No - you do not get to choose the spell to counter with at that time. You must either guess correctly ahead of time (if you're trying to counter with a specific spell) or you simply fire off dispel magic, the universal counterspell (in which case you don't need to identify the enemy spell at all, though you can if you wish.)

[RedMage125]

Under normal circumstances, Counterspelling works like this:

1) On your turn, you ready an action to counterspell (this is a Standard Action).

2) When the enemy spellcaster begins to cast, you are entitled to a Spellcraft check as a Free Action to identify the spell being cast (this is true even when you are not trying to counterspell).

3) You may now attempt to counterspell. To do so you need to have the ability to do one of 3 things:
a) Have the exact spell prepared (if a wizard/cleric/druid) or known with a spell slot available (sorc, bard). Metamagic feats do not affect counterspelling, so a Fireball can counter a Maximized Empowered Widened Fireball.
b) Have another spell available (either prepared or known) the explicitly counters the spell being cast (Haste couters Slow, etc.)
c) Have Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic available, but if you use this option, you must make a Dispel Check (see the description of the spell)

Note, that even if you fail to identify the spell being cast (as per Step 2), you may still attempt to counterspell with Dispel Magic.

Then we have the fun little feat Improved Counterspell. What that does is bypass the restriction in step 3a. That is, you can counter a spell with any spell of the same school of the same level or higher. So an enemy wizard is casting Baleful Polymorph, you can use any Transmutation of 5th level or higher to counter it.

Then FR gives us the feat Reactive Counterspell. It requires Improved Counterspell and Improved Initiative as prereqs, but this handy feat allows you to bypass Step 1. That is, you need not have a Readied Action to counterspell. You identify a spell being cast, and you counter it, but this counts as taking up your next turn in initiative. However, once your normal turn comes and goes, your ability to Reactive Counterspell is "reset", so you can keep an enemy spellcaster locked down.

If you happen to take a level of Archmage and take the High Arcana "Mastery of Counterspelling", then whenever you DO counter an enemy's spell successfully, instead of muting it out, you bounce it back on the caster.


You have to decide what action you are readying when you ready it. You can't change what you're going to do. If you picked "Greater Dispel when a caster is casting" then that's what's going to happen and you can't change it to Tactical Teleportation.


No - you do not get to choose the spell to counter with at that time. You must either guess correctly ahead of time (if you're trying to counter with a specific spell) or you simply fire off dispel magic, the universal counterspell (in which case you don't need to identify the enemy spell at all, though you can if you wish.)

You do not have to correctly guess ahead of time.

Counterspell is a specific readied action. It's not "I hope he's gonna cast Fireball, so I ready Fireball to counter it". It's "I ready an action to counterspell". That is the readied action. So if you are a wizard and have both Haste and Slow prepared, and you ready an action to Counterspell an enemy Sorcerer, and that Sorcerer casts Slow, you can choose which spell you are going to use to Counter it.

[Qwertystop]

Ooh, I never knew about Reactive ****erspell. That'll be fun to play with - I've been bouncing the idea of a counterspell-focused mage around for a while, but I've been having trouble figuring out how to make it more useful than readying an action every round for whatever spell may or may not be cast by a specific enemy that round.

Speaking of, I made a feat to add a little more zing to a counter-fight (as currently it's two mages glaring art each other waiting for the other to cast, or both waving their arms and chanting (and then pausing for six seconds) to no effect. It's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351641-Feat-Counterspell-Momentum-(PEACH)), if you'd like to add it to your repertoire.

[Flickerdart]

You do not have to correctly guess ahead of time.

Counterspell is a specific readied action. It's not "I hope he's gonna cast Fireball, so I ready Fireball to counter it". It's "I ready an action to counterspell". That is the readied action. So if you are a wizard and have both Haste and Slow prepared, and you ready an action to Counterspell an enemy Sorcerer, and that Sorcerer casts Slow, you can choose which spell you are going to use to Counter it.
Right, but what I'm saying is, you can't decide to do something other than counterspell if the enemy mage casts a spell you don't want to counter.

[RedMage125]

Right, but what I'm saying is, you can't decide to do something other than counterspell if the enemy mage casts a spell you don't want to counter.

I'm confused at what you are saying. Are you implying that if you ready an action for a certain trigger, and when that trigger occurs, that you MUST take that action? Because I'm pretty sure you can decide to not take the action. Obviously, you can't do anything else, but when you identify the spell, you still have the option of "I choose not to counterspell after all". Granted that's a waste of an action, but you can still do nothing.

If you are saying that the readied action MUST be taken, can you please cite the rule that says that?

Because the way I read it:

Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You may also choose to not take the action.

I could be misinterpreting what you said, though. Clarify?

[Flickerdart]

I could be misinterpreting what you said, though. Clarify?
You are. I'm saying that if you ready an action to counterspell, you cannot then change your mind and use it to cast something (the OP wanted tactical teleporation) instead.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks, everyone. I have a much better (if more limited) idea of what is possible.

For those interested in counter spelling-focussed builds, also check out BattleMagic Perception (3rd level sorc/wiz/cleric spell from Heroes of Battle, lasts 10 minutes/level).

With it active (and with 5 ranks in spell craft), you sense any spell casting or spell-like ability within 100 feet. You get a +5 on spell craft checks to identify spells as they are being cast, and if you beat a DC 15 spell craft check you know the spell being cast.

The best part is you can counter the spell as a free action. You don't need to have readied a spell (though counter spelling is resolved normally). You don't need line of sight to the caster to counter the spell. (Using it to counterspell in this way ends the spell, though.)

So having it active will boost your ability to counter spell (even to casters not in your line of sight), and will be a backup plan if you are surprised and haven't readied to counter spell.

I'm getting a custom rune staff made that will include this spell. Casting it as an extended spell morning and afternoon, my bard can have it active practically all day.