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da_chicken
2014-06-29, 10:10 PM
Not sure if this is elsewhere.... threads are kind of a mess.

The tweet (https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/482571166784045056/photo/1)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrJv6pECEAA0zri.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrJv6vzCcAESMNP.jpg:large

Stray
2014-06-30, 02:38 AM
The starter set calls this class a wizard, basic DnD calls it a wizard, the tweet calls it a wizard, they said (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130930) they are not doing the "mage" thing exactly nine months ago. I think we can safely call this "Wizard preview". Mage class is no more.

Kurald Galain
2014-06-30, 05:47 AM
Let's see...

Listsing the five different types of coin on the sheet and then giving every character only gold pieces anyway is a great way of showing that perhaps listing all five isn't so useful.
We'd already seen the combined vancian/non-vancian mechanic that folds the sorcerer into the wizard (it boggles the mind why they'd still want a separate 'sorcerer' class afterwards). Arcane Recovery strikes me as an unnecessarily complicated mechanic for just giving the wizard more spells per day.
Otherwise nothing new to see here, this is basically a copy/paste job of the 3E wizard. Not that that's a bad thing per se, but there's nothing new to see here.

da_chicken
2014-06-30, 07:54 AM
Otherwise nothing new to see here, this is basically a copy/paste job of the 3E wizard. Not that that's a bad thing per se, but there's nothing new to see here.

Well, Wizard class is largely the same in the same way any class is largely the same. Very similar broad strokes, but different details. The way the Wizard prepares spells is different (hybrid 3.x Wizard/Sorcerer), the way spells scale is different (spell level rather than caster level), the spells themselves are often very different, and the number of spells per day you get is different (equal or fewer except for cantrips). Also d6 hit die, but that's a minor change. The way the class plays is largely the same, but that's kind of the point, isn't it?

da_chicken
2014-06-30, 07:55 AM
The starter set calls this class a wizard, basic DnD calls it a wizard, the tweet calls it a wizard, they said (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20130930) they are not doing the "mage" thing exactly nine months ago. I think we can safely call this "Wizard preview". Mage class is no more.

*shrug* I've called them mages since they were called magic-users.

Millennium
2014-06-30, 08:16 AM
*shrug* I've called them mages since they were called magic-users.
Yeah, I was going to say; D&D has never really been very consistent on the question of what to call arcane spellcasters. It doesn't really help that English has so many words for it.

obryn
2014-06-30, 08:16 AM
Listsing the five different types of coin on the sheet and then giving every character only gold pieces anyway is a great way of showing that perhaps listing all five isn't so useful.
There is literally no reason for Electrum pieces other than a call-out to oldschoolers.

I'm kind of surprised it's not 200 copper to the gold.

Noldo
2014-06-30, 09:05 AM
Arcane Recovery strikes me as an unnecessarily complicated mechanic for just giving the wizard more spells per day.

Giving the wizard an option to replenish some of their spells with short rest (like the fighter can replenish some of its hitpoints [if my memory serves me right]) leads to different pacing than just giving the wizard equal number of additional spells outright. Arcane Recovery gives the wizard more staying power over the course of several encounters while giving additional spells would increase the power a wizard has over a course of single encounter.

The practical value of Arcana Recovery will depend on the value of lower level spells. If the smart tactic is to always use the highest spell slot in first fight and recover it with Arcane Recovery, this will be unnecessarily complicated mechanic.

SpawnOfMorbo
2014-06-30, 11:04 AM
Giving the wizard an option to replenish some of their spells with short rest (like the fighter can replenish some of its hitpoints [if my memory serves me right]) leads to different pacing than just giving the wizard equal number of additional spells outright. Arcane Recovery gives the wizard more staying power over the course of several encounters while giving additional spells would increase the power a wizard has over a course of single encounter.

The practical value of Arcana Recovery will depend on the value of lower level spells. If the smart tactic is to always use the highest spell slot in first fight and recover it with Arcane Recovery, this will be unnecessarily complicated mechanic.

True but only if a wizard can prepare their spells 1/day will this mean anything. In other editions (cough3.Pcough)a wizard can prepare some spells in the morning then spend short rests (well what amounts to them anyways) preparing the rest of their slots and such.


Edit:

I do like sculpt spell, perhaps we will see more meta magic this way.

I think fireball will be a very fun spell to use, maybe not optimal but fun to drop right on top of the party's fighter and not have to worry about him frying.

Ooo I know my first fluff for an evocation mage... He doesn't cast spells like normal but makes them explode from his allies. His magic is injected into a willing creature which then explodes outward... Will need to see how delayed actions work...

McFighter charges across the battle field and strikes the beholder in the face with his great sword. Just then the fighter explodes, quite literally, in the beholder's face. The smoke clears and the fighter has his sword held up high ready to deliver another blow...

Keep the same mechanics but fluff it a bit different. Plus I wouldn't have to burn up a precious feat to keep my ally alive or at least unharmed...

da_chicken
2014-06-30, 11:45 AM
True but only if a wizard can prepare their spells 1/day will this mean anything. In other editions (cough3.Pcough)a wizard can prepare some spells in the morning then spend short rests (well what amounts to them anyways) preparing the rest of their slots and such.

The playtest Wizard could leave unprepared spells as he wished, IIRC.

However, it's also important to remember that spell preparation isn't tightly linked to spell casting like it is in 3e and prior. In 3.x, if you prepare 3 magic missile and 1 mage armor, then you're casting 3 magic missile and 1 mage armor. In 5e, you could prepare magic missile and mage armor and cast all magic missle, cast all mage armor, or some other combination.

SpawnOfMorbo
2014-06-30, 11:56 AM
The playtest Wizard could leave unprepared spells as he wished, IIRC.

However, it's also important to remember that spell preparation isn't tightly linked to spell casting like it is in 3e and prior. In 3.x, if you prepare 3 magic missile and 1 mage armor, then you're casting 3 magic missile and 1 mage armor. In 5e, you could prepare magic missile and mage armor and cast all magic missle, cast all mage armor, or some other combination.

True, however if you allow a mage to prepare multiple times a day, that just compounds on the magic system and then...

Why have the wizard prepare spells to begin with? Give them a spell book (their focus or whatever) that they must expend arcane energy to read from. If you have all this flexibility in picking spells and multiple ways of doing such... I'm not sure why the wizard needs to prepare spells.

Give them a specific spell know limit, how much arcane magic they can contain within their spell book and fluff the book to be linked to their soul. The wizard can summon the book from whenever it is or create a copy (that destroys the old one), the wizard must have their book to cast the spell.

Yeah you have a sorcerer for the most part but... We are already half way there with the new magic system.

da_chicken
2014-07-02, 12:10 PM
True, however if you allow a mage to prepare multiple times a day, that just compounds on the magic system and then...

You can add previously empty, but you can't clear already prepared except after a long rest.


Why have the wizard prepare spells to begin with? Give them a spell book (their focus or whatever) that they must expend arcane energy to read from. If you have all this flexibility in picking spells and multiple ways of doing such... I'm not sure why the wizard needs to prepare spells.

Well, for ritual spells they don't. I don't see that listed anywhere on the character sheet, but in final playtest you could cast ritual spells directly from your spellbook. Although, honestly, I don't see why they had to specify a spell was a ritual when it added 10 minutes to the casting time instead of letting any arcane spell do that. It would make Wizards a terrifying siege weapon. I mean, I can see it for divine spells because unlimited healing isn't very fun, but still.


Give them a specific spell know limit, how much arcane magic they can contain within their spell book and fluff the book to be linked to their soul. The wizard can summon the book from whenever it is or create a copy (that destroys the old one), the wizard must have their book to cast the spell.

Now you're just moving the limit around. Not changing that it exists, just moving it to a new location. You're still deciding you need a limit, just fiddling with where to put it. I also think that Wizards, more than any other caster, should follow the trope of dozens of books of spells and having the ability to cast any of them. I don't really want to lose that and still call the class "Wizard".


Yeah you have a sorcerer for the most part but... We are already half way there with the new magic system.

Yeah, but that just means there's room for Sorcerer, too.

Person_Man
2014-07-02, 12:28 PM
Do you still have to cast spells out of higher level slots in order for them to scale? As far as I know that was still the default in the most recent play test. But I see no mention of it on the character sheet.

obryn
2014-07-02, 12:39 PM
Do you still have to cast spells out of higher level slots in order for them to scale? As far as I know that was still the default in the most recent play test. But I see no mention of it on the character sheet.
Yes. I think it's addressed in the spell descriptions themselves.

Person_Man
2014-07-02, 02:58 PM
OK. Then my current opinion of the 5E Wizard is that it's mess. A potentially very powerful mess, but really hard to explain.

I have a really, really hard time trying to explain the weird hybrid at-will cantrips + memorize spells + spontaneous use the spells you memorize a limited number of times per day but split up into 9 spell levels + refresh via a long rest (which is 4 hours for an elf but 8 hours for everyone else?) or Arcane Recovery mechanics.

In addition, your attack bonus and Saving Throws scale based on your Intelligence bonus and class level. Numerical values (damage et all) within spells scale based on the spell level. So the metagame of spell selection is cast spells with utility or status effects (Save or Lose) out of the lowest spell slot available, but summons and damage dealing out of the highest spell slot available.

The number of options and decisions that spellcasters have to juggle (especially at high levels) compared to pretty much every other class is just staggering. Wizards and Clerics once again get dozens and dozens of choices and resources to shift around, and everyone else gets "I attack" with a handful of special abilities to modify it. I was really hoping that they'd hit more of a Tier-ish 3 sweet spot in between.

1337 b4k4
2014-07-02, 03:04 PM
In addition, your attack bonus and Saving Throws scale based on your Intelligence bonus and class level.

Correction, they scale with your proficiency bonus. Which true does scale with your level, but there's no need to play "what level am I talking about here" in this case, just say "proficiency bonus" and be done with it.