I just realized

[Story]

I just realized that during Varsuvius's fight with Xykon, she still had Shapechange active. Victory was literally a free action away the entire time.

Obviously there are pretty much infinite ways she could have won with epic spellcasting at her disposal if she had only been thinking clearly. But we have no idea what she prepared. On the other hand, we know for sure that not only did she prepare Shapechange, but it was still active during the fight.

I can't believe it took me years to notice that.

[prism6691]

I might be mistaken, but didn't energy drain force Lirian back out her shape-changed form (or maybe it was a wild shape)? I know shape-change is affected by the number of HD you have (in terms of what you can change into) perhaps by the time V would have used it (assuming it had not expired) V was too drained to change into anything useful?

[ChristianSt]

Heck, the whole fight is a demonstration that V thought infinite Arcane power would just solve any problem. From a numbers game V should have won that fight. But because doing even less tactic/strategy than Xykon, V just lost. Hitting the square peg in the round hole doesn't work most of the time.

Would V actually have thought a bit about what he/she is doing, that fight should have destroyed Xykon there. (Unless maybe intervention from MitD, though V was probably still more powerful.)

[With a box]

Can the shapechange 'still' active even 'after' the soul silce left? It's 10min/cl and lt's only 23min after she get them

[Werbaer]

I just realized that during Varsuvius's fight with Xykon, she still had Shapechange active. Victory was literally a free action away the entire time.
How would she win the fight if she changes to a dragon?

Lirian in dragon form didn't manage to hurt Xykon, due to his damage resistance.

[With a box]

How would she win the fight if she changes to a dragon?

Lirian in dragon form didn't manage to hurt Xykon, due to his damage resistance.

Who said V had to be a dragon?
Get a solar or some undead to say no to energe drain /fort save (redclock ran away isnt he)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hmmm. I never realized that either. There's a thread for that, I think. However, like ChristianSt points out, even without Shapechange, Vaarsuvius could have still crushed Xykon with merely a better application of the spells at hand.

[Timy]

I just realized that during Varsuvius's fight with Xykon, she still had Shapechange active. Victory was literally a free action away the entire time.

Obviously there are pretty much infinite ways she could have won with epic spellcasting at her disposal if she had only been thinking clearly. But we have no idea what she prepared. On the other hand, we know for sure that not only did she prepare Shapechange, but it was still active during the fight.

I can't believe it took me years to notice that.

Short answer (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)

[Keltest]

Short answer (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)

Long answer: The whole point of that scene was to show that V was trying to use magic as an all-purpose mallet; fixing any problem by smacking it with bigger spells until it goes away. Had V applied even the most minute bit of strategy to the battle, he could easily have won. But that wasn't the point. V was supposed to come away from that with a lesson about appropriate applications of his power.

[NerdyKris]

But we have no idea what she prepared. On the other hand, we know for sure that not only did she prepare Shapechange, but it was still active during the fight.

Vaarsuvius didn't prepare anything. The sorceror soul splice gave v access to every spell known by all four of them (well, three at the time) without needing to prepare it. That was the point of that third of the splice. The other two were to cover V's two barred schools.

Also, timy, replying "because plot" is pointless when there is an in comic reason why it happened. You might as well never discuss any story ever since the answer will always be "because plot".

[daryen]

Short answer (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)

Before giving a self-serving answer to something, please make sure there was actually a question asked. (To be completely correct, one should make sure an appropriate question was asked, but that is way too high of a threshold here.)

At no point in the original post was the question, "Why didn't V just use the still existent Shapechange spell to defeat Xykon?" It wasn't even implied. It wasn't even hinted at.

All the OP was saying was that V's single-minded foolishness was worse than first realized. V had one more bullet in his/her gun that the OP originally thought. Thus making the case for how foolish V had been even worse. The post wasn't even a question. It was a statement of eventual realization.

[Reddish Mage]

If I said "V was trying to be a blaster, and think with his/her spell slots" when "(s)he should be batman" will people hit me?

[Kish]

Yes.

Optimization is not mandatory. Telling anyone "play the way I think you should" always* deserves hitting. And all I've ever seen come from the "wizards are Batman" meme is a lot of outraged shrieking from players who think having memorized that phrase means the DM is being unfair if s/he ever throws anything at them that they didn't plan for, or intimates that there may be negative consequences to attempting to keep a 15 minute waking/23 hours and 45 minutes sleeping daily schedule.

*When "the way I think you should" isn't a stand-in for "in a way that doesn't wreck the game for everyone," of course. But as Rich once said..."[If] they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, [too bad]."

[Reddish Mage]

Yes.

Optimization is not mandatory. Telling anyone "play the way I think you should" always* deserves hitting. And all I've ever seen come from the "wizards are Batman" meme is a lot of outraged shrieking from players who think having memorized that phrase means the DM is being unfair if s/he ever throws anything at them that they didn't plan for, or intimates that there may be negative consequences to attempting to keep a 15 minute waking/23 hours and 45 minutes sleeping daily schedule.

*When "the way I think you should" isn't a stand-in for "in a way that doesn't wreck the game for everyone," of course. But as Rich once said..."[If] they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, [too bad]."

I meant the above in a sarcastic fun sense :small tongue:

However, what you are criticizing is people criticizing the Giant or the Story for having a blaster wizard as part of the main cast. There are in-story reasons to suggest blaster wizards are bad the sense that both the Giant and Story thinks of them as a waste of talent (and V is one example of the stick verse showing its disapproval).

The manner of the way V lost, the Giant's commentary about it in DStP, and the lessons V has learned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) all point to suggesting that V, as blaster wizard with archtype-defining tendency to wield magic "like a cudgel," has resultedly squandered the soul splices (as well as V's) "true potential" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html).

[Kish]

Unsurprisingly, I disagree with every syllable of your analysis.

Particularly the way you seem to think the problem with "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero" was that Vaarsuvius should have referenced a proper Batman spell, rather than saying "explosion." Vaarsuvius, the genocidally racist mass murderer, has undergone a great deal of moral development, and needs to undergo a great deal more, all in areas you do not seem to wish to acknowledge. S/he does not ever need to say, "Jeez, I shouldn't have specialized in evocation."

[Dalek Kommander]

The way I see it, all wizards get a utility belt, but it's up to the player to have the effectively-omniscient contingency planning skills of Batman, and suffice to say most people in real life don't actually live up to that idea.

With that in mind, it's perfectly realistic for a wizard to not make the absolutely perfect optimal choice every single round, and kind of annoying for some monday-morning quarterback to point out, days later, what he "should have" done.

On the other hand, V wasn't just failing to live up to the perfect ideal of being Batman, he was making frankly dumb choices and using his utility belt like a blunt instrument, for the deliberate narrative purpose of SHOWING how having a utility belt doesn't even begin to make you batman.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Vaarsuvius definitely could have handled that fight better by not using their power as a cudgel, and it seems like this is something that they are trying to change. Like Kish said, optimization is not mandatory, but Vaarsuvius seems to think that they would have power if they tried a better application of their spells. Of course, the character changes that are more important in Vaarsuvius's growth are definitely the moral changes they undergo; the changes that would have had them not cast Familicide rather as opposed to the changes that would've had them fight differently versus Xykon.

[Keltest]

Vaarsuvius definitely could have handled that fight better by not using their power as a cudgel, and it seems like this is something that they are trying to change. Like Kish said, optimization is not mandatory, but Vaarsuvius seems to think that they would have power if they tried a better application of their spells. Of course, the character changes that are more important in Vaarsuvius's growth are definitely the moral changes they undergo; the changes that would have had them not cast Familicide rather as opposed to the changes that would've had them fight differently versus Xykon.

By and large those actions appear to stem from the same source. The familicide wasn't prompted (primarily) by a desire to kill dragons he's never met, it was a desire to use his magic to make sure nobody could possibly come after him and/or his family again. Likewise V was using his most powerful spells against Xykon because he wanted to prove that he could do it, not specifically because he felt Xykon needed defeating. That simply helped pick the target.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

By and large those actions appear to stem from the same source. The familicide wasn't prompted (primarily) by a desire to kill dragons he's never met, it was a desire to use his magic to make sure nobody could possibly come after him and/or his family again. Likewise V was using his most powerful spells against Xykon because he wanted to prove that he could do it, not specifically because he felt Xykon needed defeating. That simply helped pick the target.

I see. Those are good points you raise. I see the soul splice itself as driven by the desire to use his magic, not the specific casting of familicide. While Vaarsuvius certainly was going to use his magic to save his family, he used familicide largely because he didn't care to consider whether or not there were potentially good black dragons out there, or good dragon hybrids. However, your point about Xykon is one I didn't think of before, but I can agree with.

[Keltest]

I see. Those are good points you raise. I see the soul splice itself as driven by the desire to use his magic, not the specific casting of familicide. While Vaarsuvius certainly was going to use his magic to save his family, he used familicide largely because he didn't care to consider whether or not there were potentially good black dragons out there, or good dragon hybrids. However, your point about Xykon is one I didn't think of before, but I can agree with.

Well, obviously the motives behind familicide are a bit more complicated than "he wanted to hurt lots of things with magic." but for the purposes of this discussion its a large enough motivator to be worth pointing out.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, obviously the motives behind familicide are a bit more complicated than "he wanted to hurt lots of things with magic." but for the purposes of this discussion its a large enough motivator to be worth pointing out.

Fair enough. My main point was that a Vaarsuvius with different morals wouldn't be casting Familicde, at least not for those reasons.

[Keltest]

Fair enough. My main point was that a Vaarsuvius with different morals wouldn't be casting Familicde, at least not for those reasons.

A Vaarsuvius with different morals would be a completely different character. When the story started, mastering arcane power was their goal, and anything else was secondary or supplementary. Part of their character development is them coming to realize that supreme arcane power isn't worth what (s)he thought it was, and that there are other things they should maybe care about.

That's not to say that I disagree with you, but its such a fundamental part of their character that saying "if they felt like this instead" is tantamount to saying "someone else would do X."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's not to say that I disagree with you, but its such a fundamental part of their character that saying "if they felt like this instead" is tantamount to saying "someone else would do X."
That's why it's only as a result of Vaarsuvius's character development. When I say "a Vaarsuvius with different morals" I'm talking about what Vaarsuvius might chose to do now, if they were confronted with the same situation.

[Terrador]

Potential in-universe explanations: the whole claw/claw/bite routine wouldn't faze Xykon, and/or the Shapechange was Haerta's (and therefore ended when she escaped).

[Keltest]

That's why it's only as a result of Vaarsuvius's character development. When I say "a Vaarsuvius with different morals" I'm talking about what Vaarsuvius might chose to do now, if they were confronted with the same situation.

Oh. Perhaps "post-development V" would work better then. And yes, I agree that V has learned from their experience and would definitely do things radically different in that situation. For example, giving up the soul splice when Inky asked him to.


Potential in-universe explanations: the whole claw/claw/bite routine wouldn't faze Xykon, and/or the Shapechange was Haerta's (and therefore ended when she escaped).

When talking about how they need to destroy the Roy Bone Golem, V's reaction is to turn into a dragon and step on it. Whether or not Haerta was the one to provide the spell, V was still able to use the effect at that time.

[Terrador]

Oh. Perhaps "post-development V" would work better then. And yes, I agree that V has learned from their experience and would definitely do things radically different in that situation. For example, giving up the soul splice when Inky asked him to.



When talking about how they need to destroy the Roy Bone Golem, V's reaction is to turn into a dragon and step on it. Whether or not Haerta was the one to provide the spell, V was still able to use the effect at that time.

Good point; it was still active. That said, by RAW a dragon of that size shouldn't have a bludgeoning attack against a Medium creature better than 1d8+Str/x2.

[Keltest]

Good point; it was still active. That said, by RAW a dragon of that size shouldn't have a bludgeoning attack against a Medium creature better than 1d8+Str/x2.

Well, there was a bone golem, and then a Dragon-shaped V stepped on it, and then there was a beat up skull with bits of skeleton scattered around. I guess its up to you to decide what happened there.

[137beth]

Can the shapechange 'still' active even 'after' the soul silce left? It's 10min/cl and lt's only 23min after she get them

No, because all spells the splices cast with an ongoing duration end when the splice ends. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

[Terrador]

Well, there was a bone golem, and then a Dragon-shaped V stepped on it, and then there was a beat up skull with bits of skeleton scattered around. I guess its up to you to decide what happened there.

Rule of Cool for something that could just as easily have been "Durkon hits it with a hammer for a few rounds" =/= pitched combat with the Big Bad. One bends a looooooooooot more rules than the other.

[Keltest]

Rule of Cool for something that could just as easily have been "Durkon hits it with a hammer for a few rounds" =/= pitched combat with the Big Bad. One bends a looooooooooot more rules than the other.

When has the giant ever cared about complying with the rules over the story? V was being portrayed as being hideously impatient through events such as that.

[Reddish Mage]

I would like to note that the notes of disapproval on blaster-types (and "thinking with spell slots") extends beyond V and his actions surrounding the ABD. Laurin's decision to "nova" and expend abilities early in a fight is what leads to her defeat to V. V generally needs to use spells from other schools to defeat the biggest threats (see V's battle with the young black dragon and Z for example). Xykon's own use of blaster type abilities are often counter-productive, juvenile, and pettily sadistic (his undead creating abilities are viewed much more highly). Xykon is also gullible and has been tricked into serving Redcloak's agenda.

[Nilehus]

The sorceror soul splice gave v access to every spell known by all four of them (well, three at the time) without needing to prepare it. That was the point of that third of the splice.

Minor nitpick, but V only gets to spontaneously cast from the Sorcerer's spell slots with the spells the Sorcerer knows. Time Stop was the other soul's, and he said that there weren't anymore prepared.

[Keltest]

I would like to note that the notes of disapproval on blaster-types (and "thinking with spell slots") extends beyond V and his actions surrounding the ABD. Laurin's decision to "nova" and expend abilities early in a fight is what leads to her defeat to V. V generally needs to use spells from other schools to defeat the biggest threats (see V's battle with the young black dragon and Z for example). Xykon's own use of blaster type abilities are often counter-productive, juvenile, and pettily sadistic (his undead creating abilities are viewed much more highly). Xykon is also gullible and has been tricked into serving Redcloak's agenda.

Laurin nova-ed? From what I saw, she was using her powers first entirely as transportation, as that was all she was there for. Then, when her goals changed, she was mostly reacting to spells that V had cast. She bolted because she knew she couldn't keep that fight going, and aggravating a wizard who can disintegrate you is, as a rule, unwise.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Laurin nova-ed? From what I saw, she was using her powers first entirely as transportation, as that was all she was there for. Then, when her goals changed, she was mostly reacting to spells that V had cast. She bolted because she knew she couldn't keep that fight going, and aggravating a wizard who can disintegrate you is, as a rule, unwise.

In support of this, Laurin was asked by Tarquin to nova things, and she told him to shut up. In fact, to me this always implied that she had spent so many points by this point on her wormholes that she couldn't nova anymore.

[veti]

Good point; it was still active. That said, by RAW a dragon of that size shouldn't have a bludgeoning attack against a Medium creature better than 1d8+Str/x2.

Why would it be restricted to bludgeoning? Xykon's templated DR is only 15 points - a dragon with 40 STR could batter straight through it with any attack it chooses. And if V had the sense to choose one with an acid-based breath weapon, I bet Xykon isn't completely immune to that.

But most importantly, in that case V wouldn't have got to cast any more of her borrowed (rented?) spells. And that would have been such a wasted opportunity...

[Kish]

In support of this, Laurin was asked by Tarquin to nova things, and she told him to shut up. In fact, to me this always implied that she had spent so many points by this point on her wormholes that she couldn't nova anymore.
If she didn't have 17 power points left to her name, she shouldn't have needed Vaarsuvius to tell her "I have in excess of one spells remaining" to convince her it was time to flee.

Psions aren't like wizards or even like sorcerers; a psion who can't manifest a power at the highest power level she has access to is a psion who is very close to out of power to manifest anything.

I took the exchange between Tarquin and Laurin to amount to, "Some minor character isn't dead yet, fight effectively Laurin damn it!" "I am fighting as effectively as I can, take your armchair-quarterbacking and ridiculous delusions about relative narrative roles and shove it, Tarkie!"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If she didn't have 17 power points left to her name, she shouldn't have needed Vaarsuvius to tell her "I have in excess of one spells remaining" to convince her it was time to flee.

Psions aren't like wizards or even like sorcerers; a psion who can't manifest a power at the highest power level she has access to is a psion who is very close to out of power to manifest anything.

I took the exchange between Tarquin and Laurin to amount to, "Some minor character isn't dead yet, fight effectively Laurin damn it!" "I am fighting as effectively as I can, take your armchair-quarterbacking and ridiculous delusions about relative narrative roles and shove it, Tarkie!"

All right, I don't really know much about manifested, so I'll assume your interpretation is the more accurate one.

[Reddish Mage]

Nova may not be the accurate term but Sabine's advice on Laurin's tendency to expend high level abilities quickly is substantiated by the strip. This is a tendency, along with the heavy use of blasting spells, that is not only sub-optimal mechanically but can be seen as criticized in-story as a crude way to squander such awesome magical power.

[Keltest]

Nova may not be the accurate term but Sabine's advice on Laurin's tendency to expend high level abilities quickly is substantiated by the strip. This is a tendency, along with the heavy use of blasting spells, that is not only sub-optimal mechanically but can be seen as criticized in-story as a crude way to squander such awesome magical power.

Expending a high level ability is only a poor choice when a lower level one will suffice. That's the whole point of things like multiple levels of the cure XXX wounds spells; a CLW wont usually patch you up enough later on, so you need to put more energy into it. Granted, I don't know enough about psionics to tell exactly what effects were being used to counter most of V's spells off the top of my head, but that scene did not scream "She is being horribly inefficient" to me so much as "she did not have the resources she needed to win that fight, and didn't know this going into it." Remember that she was using up a lot of power doing all those wormholes earlier, so if anything I would think she was trying to be conservative.

[Kish]

Nova may not be the accurate term but Sabine's advice on Laurin's tendency to expend high level abilities quickly is substantiated by the strip. This is a tendency, along with the heavy use of blasting spells, that is not only sub-optimal mechanically but can be seen as criticized in-story as a crude way to squander such awesome magical power.
I wish you would quit claiming things are "criticized in-story" when that's, at best, your personal interpretation of extremely debatable text.

As far as I can tell, an exhaustive list of spellcasters in OotS who don't cast their highest-level spells freely and often would go:


If anyone missed it the first time, that's:


What Vaarsuvius has been criticized for, even before the whole "genocidal racism" and "mass murder" thing, is reaching for magic immediately to the point of violating a companion's mental autonomy by instinctive preference to apologizing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html).


All right, I don't really know much about manifested, so I'll assume your interpretation is the more accurate one.
Psions draw from a pool of power points. To manifest a first-level power, Laurin spends one (of her 300+) power point. To manifest a second-level power, she spends three. For a third-level power, five, and so on. If she has seventeen power points left, she can manifest a ninth-level power just as easily as she can manifest seventeen first-level powers or five second-level powers; she can't "run out of maximum-level spells" without being actually pretty much out of the fight, the way Vaarsuvius, Durkon, and Xykon all could.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Psions draw from a pool of power points. To manifest a first-level power, Laurin spends one (of her 300+) power point. To manifest a second-level power, she spends three. For a third-level power, five, and so on. If she has seventeen power points left, she can manifest a ninth-level power just as easily as she can manifest seventeen first-level powers or five second-level powers; she can't "run out of maximum-level spells" without being actually pretty much out of the fight, the way Vaarsuvius, Durkon, and Xykon all could.

I see. Thank you for the explanation. I did not know what how the costs of powers workers.

[evileeyore]

I see. Thank you for the explanation. I did not know what how the costs of powers workers.
Well, Psionic Teleport (the wormholes) cost her 9 power points (5th level power) each time she used it (regardless of how many passengers).

Her "mental bolt" attacks were probably Energy Bolt (single target) and Energy Ball (AOE) and are lower level 3rd and 4th level respectively (5 and 7 power points - but are pumpable for more points up to her manifester level).

She used 7 Teleports (and something when she was level drained) one 'nova' Ball and several Bolts before the "Caster Fight" (as well as some sort of low level TK to hold the whip).

She could easily have burned through over 100 power points before she engaged Vaarsuvius, and then another 100 before she departed.

If she were 15th level with a 20 in her relevant stat she'd have 232 power points per day without taping storage items.




And protip: Most Psions 'nova' early and hard. There is really no reason not to, you drop your foe fast before they can do serious harm to your team, that's just sound tactics.

[Everyl]

Well, Psionic Teleport (the wormholes) cost her 9 power points (5th level power) each time she used it (regardless of how many passengers).

Her "mental bolt" attacks were probably Energy Bolt (single target) and Energy Ball (AOE) and are lower level 3rd and 4th level respectively (5 and 7 power points - but are pumpable for more points up to her manifester level).

She used 7 Teleports (and something when she was level drained) one 'nova' Ball and several Bolts before the "Caster Fight" (as well as some sort of low level TK to hold the whip).

She could easily have burned through over 100 power points before she engaged Vaarsuvius, and then another 100 before she departed.

If she were 15th level with a 20 in her relevant stat she'd have 232 power points per day without taping storage items.




And protip: Most Psions 'nova' early and hard. There is really no reason not to, you drop your foe fast before they can do serious harm to your team, that's just sound tactics.

Laurin's Wormhole power is a homebrew power based loosely on a second-edition psionic power. Its exact level is unknown, because Rich had no reason to let us know it. What we do know is that it was more expensive and flashier than she needed to do her job. From the way she popped away from the High Priest of Hel when he jumped her over Malack's staff, it appears that she knows Psionic Dimension Door, which should have been powerful enough to move herself, Miron, Tarquin, and the triceratops over the distances needed to intercept the Order for a mere 7 psi points. Instead, she used Wormhole, which appears to be similar in scope and functionality to a cross between Gate and Teleportation Circle, both 9th-level spells. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's a 9th-level power, as it has an apparent duration of "Concentration" and may have other limitations we don't know about that can be overcome through augmenting, but it's a reasonably safe guess that every wormhole she opened cost at least 13 psi points, more likely 15 or 17.

It's been a while since I ran the numbers, but making conservative estimates, she could have easily burned through more than 200 points on-panel, and possibly more before she came to the Windy Valley. She could have been down to less than 100 points even if she was level 17-20, which certainly isn't enough to take her out of a fight, but it is enough that she'd be at a disadvantage against a nearly-fresh Vaarsuvius who was employing attrition tactics.

(Incidentally, if Laurin were a sorcerer and accomplished all the same feats we see her do on-panel through arcane magic, she would have still had nearly all of her 7th-level and higher spell slots left. I figured that one out when I got sick of all the people talking about how psionics was "overpowered" in the comic discussion threatds during that battle.)

[MagicalMeat]

Not really relevant to the topic at hand, but this thread has a terrible title.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Not really relevant to the topic at hand, but this thread has a terrible title.

What makes you say that?

[ChristianSt]

What makes you say that?

He just realized





(so imo perfectly on topic :smallamused:)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He just realized





(so imo perfectly on topic :smallamused:)

That's true. :smallamused: However, I want to know why he thinks it's a bad title.

[ChristianSt]

That's true. :smallamused: However, I want to know why he thinks it's a bad title.

That is imo pretty self-explanatory. It just doesn't add any information about the actual content (i.e. "V's action during his/her fight vs. Xykon"). It could be used for any something else like:


I just realized that Shojo died in 407 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)
I just realized that Belkar's dagger shrunk in 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)
I just realized something
I just realized this is a thread I could make
I just realized that wasting time to do more examples like this doesn't really help
...


So it isn't really possible to tell anything about this thread without looking into it. And imo that is a pretty clear sign that a thread title is bad. I wouldn't even find it impossible for others to say "mh, that title is so generic/non-informative, that is a spam thread and I will not bother wasting time finding that out".

[Jay R]

The whole idea is kind of off-target.

Vaarsuvius has to choose between making a physical attack (by changing shape), or casting more spells. Is there anybody who thinks V wouldn't opt for more spells?

[Kish]

I don't get why people keep thinking "Shapechange" means "turn into a dragon and rip Xykon apart". If Vaarsuvius had used Shapechange, it would have been to turn into a lich or something similar himself/herself, for immunity to Energy Drain.

That said, why Vaarsuvius didn't is pretty straightforward: Lack of ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Xykon's Tactics), and her/his ego telling her/him s/he had no need for same, that it would be a clash of power vs. power and s/he was the greater.

[Jay R]

I don't get why people keep thinking "Shapechange" means "turn into a dragon and rip Xykon apart". If Vaarsuvius had used Shapechange, it would have been to turn into a lich or something similar himself/herself, for immunity to Energy Drain.

That's a good point. But that's still something other than casting a spell.

"Cast a spell, or do something else?" For Vaarsuvius, that is always an easy choice.

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, shapechanging into something resistant to energy drain would have been tactically sound. Which, of course, is why V, the flailing arcane teenager, didn't do it. :smallbiggrin:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That is imo pretty self-explanatory. It just doesn't add any information about the actual content (i.e. "V's action during his/her fight vs. Xykon"). It could be used for any something else like:


I just realized that Shojo died in 407 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)
I just realized that Belkar's dagger shrunk in 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)
I just realized something
I just realized this is a thread I could make
I just realized that wasting time to do more examples like this doesn't really help
...


So it isn't really possible to tell anything about this thread without looking into it. And imo that is a pretty clear sign that a thread title is bad. I wouldn't even find it impossible for others to say "mh, that title is so generic/non-informative, that is a spam thread and I will not bother wasting time finding that out".
I suppose that is true. I mostly agree with their statement, I just wanted to know what their reasoning was. Personally, I think that the OP would have been better to have posted this in the "Things You Never Noticed Before" thread.

[evileeyore]

Laurin's Wormhole power is a homebrew power based loosely on a second-edition psionic power. Its exact level is unknown, because Rich had no reason to let us know it.
Where does that idea come from?

[Kish]

Where does that idea come from?
1) There is a psionic power in 2ed called Wormhole.
2) There isn't one in 3.5ed.
3) Nor is there any 3.5ed psionic power that will do the things she did with Wormhole, notably opening a portal that an entire army can march through.

Rich may or may not have also explicitly said "it's based on 2ed Wormhole"; I'm not going to try to track it down because its being homebrew is inherent in it not being a 3.5ed power or a renamed-and-only-slightly-changed 3.5ed power.

[137beth]

As far as I can tell, an exhaustive list of spellcasters in OotS who don't cast their highest-level spells freely and often would go:


If anyone missed it the first time, that's:


That was perfect:smallsmile:

[Story]

Vaarsuvius has to choose between making a physical attack (by changing shape), or casting more spells. Is there anybody who thinks V wouldn't opt for more spells?

Shapechange is a free action. She could have done it at any time. And even if she didn't do a physical attack, having a sturdier form and better stats would have been really helpful.

I think that the OP would have been better to have posted this in the "Things You Never Noticed Before" thread.

I didn't notice it until after posting this thread. Sorry.

[malloyd]

As far as I can tell, an exhaustive list of spellcasters in OotS who don't cast their highest-level spells freely and often would go:


There's always Elan.

[Nilehus]

There's always Elan.

HE DOESN'T COUNT! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html)

:smalltongue:

[137beth]

Elan's most used spell lately has been mass cure light wounds, which is a 5th level spell. That's his highest level slot, unless he reached level 16 recently.

[Werbaer]

I don't get why people keep thinking "Shapechange" means "turn into a dragon and rip Xykon apart".
In my case, mainly because i don't know the specifics of the spell (not a RPG player). V cast the spell to turn into a dragon, and later switched to dragon form to destroy the bone golem, so i assumed the target form is decided when you cast the spell.

Second, it was stated in the first post that "Victory was literally a free action away the entire time.". That sounds like an instant-win by changing the shape, not just "Get a solar or some undead to say no to energe drain". I assumed Dragons are the most stronges monsters available in terms of attack power.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Elan's most used spell lately has been mass cure light wounds, which is a 5th level spell. That's his highest level slot, unless he reached level 16 recently.

According to the Class and Level Geekery thread, he gained enough XP over the course of the last arc to become level 16. For the most part though, he has been consistently using his highest level of spells.

[Timy]

Before giving a self-serving answer to something, please make sure there was actually a question asked. (To be completely correct, one should make sure an appropriate question was asked, but that is way too high of a threshold here.)

At no point in the original post was the question, "Why didn't V just use the still existent Shapechange spell to defeat Xykon?" It wasn't even implied. It wasn't even hinted at.

All the OP was saying was that V's single-minded foolishness was worse than first realized. V had one more bullet in his/her gun that the OP originally thought. Thus making the case for how foolish V had been even worse. The post wasn't even a question. It was a statement of eventual realization.

Sorry I didn't catch it.

For my defense, I am not a native english speaker.

[Kish]

There's always Elan.


Elan's most used spell lately has been mass cure light wounds, which is a 5th level spell. That's his highest level slot, unless he reached level 16 recently.
Indeed. Elan might technically qualify in that he doesn't cast any of his spells all that often, but when he does, he reaches for his highest-level ones first like every other character in the comic, not for lower-level ones because blah blah Batman.

[Dalek Kommander]

I wish you would quit claiming things are "criticized in-story" when that's, at best, your personal interpretation of extremely debatable text.

As far as I can tell, an exhaustive list of spellcasters in OotS who don't cast their highest-level spells freely and often would go:


If anyone missed it the first time, that's:




V won his showdown with Laurin with a deliberate strategy of power-point attrition, starting here where V advises Roy to drag out the persuit phase as long as possible:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0926.html

and ending here where he tells Laurin he has "in exess of twenty-five spells remaining, not counting cantrips"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html

Would the pre-soul-slice Varsuuvius still have 25 spells left in reserve after a drawn out conflict? Or would he have blown it all on showy explosive spells against Tarquin's expendable mooks before the chase scene even began?

Whether you like it or not, part of Varsuuvius's character development really is about putting his "blaster mage" attitude behind him and taking a more calculated, strategic approach.

That being said, it's worth emphasising that a lower level spell isn't more strategic if it doesn't solve the problem. So for example, when V cast prismatic spray rather than disintigrate against the triceratops, he was choosing a higher level spell, but far more importantly he chose the spell that was actually going to work.

[Story]

In my case, mainly because i don't know the specifics of the spell (not a RPG player). V cast the spell to turn into a dragon, and later switched to dragon form to destroy the bone golem, so i assumed the target form is decided when you cast the spell.

Second, it was stated in the first post that "Victory was literally a free action away the entire time.". That sounds like an instant-win by changing the shape, not just "Get a solar or some undead to say no to energe drain". I assumed Dragons are the most stronges monsters available in terms of attack power.

Shapechange allows you to choose a different form every round if you wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm). It's one of the best spells in the game. You can choose any monster in the game of at most 25 HD between Fine and Collossal size. Which means there are lots of game breakingly powerful forms to choose from. Dragon is good, but Solar is probably better. And that's just in Core, which admittedly is all that usually shows up in OOTS.

Anyway, changing form is a free action. It's not literally victory, but it is difficult to see how she would lose using Shapechange. Then again, it was difficult to see how she could lose with her absurdly game breaking caster abilities and yet she found a way, mostly by developing a wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings.

[Psyren]

Given that Xykon knew Superb Dispelling, even if V had turned into something truly threatening he just would have ended up smacked down all the sooner.

(Also, considering that he doesn't consider divine spells to be "real magic" I doubt Solar would have even crossed his mind.)

[Nilehus]

Given that Xykon knew Superb Dispelling, even if V had turned into something truly threatening he just would have ended up smacked down all the sooner.

(Also, considering that he doesn't consider divine spells to be "real magic" I doubt Solar would have even crossed his mind.)

Would Xykon have been able to overcome V's CL? Even with losing the strongest soul, V was still a level 15 wizard with two other Epic magic users attached to them. Would their CL's stack, or would it be individual based on whose spell it was? Or is that in the realm of 'Whatever the plot needs to happen'?

(I'm assuming this is before Xykon smacked V with the Energy Drains, afterwards, it did work obviously.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Would Xykon have been able to overcome V's CL? Even with losing the strongest soul, V was still a level 15 wizard with two other Epic magic users attached to them. Would their CL's stack, or would it be individual based on whose spell it was? Or is that in the realm of 'Whatever the plot needs to happen'?

(I'm assuming this is before Xykon smacked V with the Energy Drains, afterwards, it did work obviously.)
Well, it seems that their ECL is all of them combined for XP purposes. Would that also happen with their CL?

[Story]

Given that V used a Disjunction against an AMF without any apparent concern that it would work, I think it's safe to assume her CL was near 100 with Hearta. Which suggests that the CLs do stack.

Incidentally, if that's true, it means her Shapechange was garuenteed to survive the Superb Dispelling, meaning that she could have still used it at the end of the fight. Maybe bash Xykon in with a boulder just for irony points.

[Keltest]

Given that V used a Disjunction against an AMF without any apparent concern that it would work, I think it's safe to assume her CL was near 100 with Hearta. Which suggests that the CLs do stack.

Incidentally, if that's true, it means her Shapechange was garuenteed to survive the Superb Dispelling, meaning that she could have still used it at the end of the fight. Maybe bash Xykon in with a boulder just for irony points.

Once the splice ended, all active effects cast from the splices were lost. That's part of how the splice worked.

[Story]

Yes but we know that the Shapechange lasted after Hearta left because V used it against golem!Roy.

[Domino Quartz]

Was Shapechange one of Haerta's spells, though?

[Lyese]

Was Shapechange one of Haerta's spells, though?

Since it's a Transmutation spell, and since Jephton "lost [his] epic spell slots," it'd stand to reason it was Ganonron's. I thought Teleport was changed to a Transmutation spell school in 3.5, and figured since he was all about teleporting armies and conquering dimensions, he's be a transmutation expert, but apparently he's conjuration specialized? O_o

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Since it's a Transmutation spell, and since Jephton "lost [his] epic spell slots," it'd stand to reason it was Ganonron's. I thought Teleport was changed to a Transmutation spell school in 3.5, and figured since he was all about teleporting armies and conquering dimensions, he's be a transmutation expert, but apparently he's conjuration specialized? O_o

No, Teleport is a Conjuration spell, which is why Vaarsuvius was unable to cast it without the soul splice.

[Yendor]

Given that V used a Disjunction against an AMF without any apparent concern that it would work, I think it's safe to assume her CL was near 100 with Hearta. Which suggests that the CLs do stack.

Incidentally, if that's true, it means her Shapechange was garuenteed to survive the Superb Dispelling, meaning that she could have still used it at the end of the fight. Maybe bash Xykon in with a boulder just for irony points.

"Concern"? From power-tripping Vaarsuvius? V just blasted away and assumed it would work.

Why would Shapechange be any different from the other spells Xykon nixed?

[Skorj]

.... he doesn't cast any of his spells all that often, but when he does, he reaches for his highest-level ones first ...

I like what you did there.


because blah blah Batman.

I think the often-overlooked point of the "Batman wizard" is that it's an advanced play style: rather than being "easy mode," as often described, it requires more skill from the player to actually be better in play than more obvious styles (as you're unlikely to have just the right non-damage spell memorized by accident, it takes a lot of research both OOC and IC to get that outcome). Batman's style works great because it's his name on the comic, after all, where in an RPG you have to actually do that prep work yourself. In-comic, the point was quite well made. V wasn't planning, or even really thinking, so even though she had a fistful of spells that could defeat Xy, nothing beyond blunt force occurred to her.

Meanwhile, Xy being a sorcerer and all, is built for the "no-planning" playstyle from the beginning, has lots of experience with the tools he has to work with, and most importantly, for all his arrogance, he actually listened to Redcloak in the fight. I always took the point of that battle to be "real power is using everything available to you, from allies to spells to a simple melee attack, as the goal is to win, not to make some point about what playstyle is better." At least, that's my thought on the "Batman wizard" meme: sure, it can be powerful, but power is doing whatever wins, and there's more to that than just building a character around having lot of options (soul splice or no). The Batman wizard is only good if it matches your playstyle (or chosen IC personality), which is true of a lot of builds in any RPG.

[Psyren]

Would Xykon have been able to overcome V's CL? Even with losing the strongest soul, V was still a level 15 wizard with two other Epic magic users attached to them. Would their CL's stack, or would it be individual based on whose spell it was? Or is that in the realm of 'Whatever the plot needs to happen'?

(I'm assuming this is before Xykon smacked V with the Energy Drains, afterwards, it did work obviously.)

Epic Spells are funny. They are little more than sanctioned homebrew with some suggested guidelines. What it boils down to is that we have no way of proving definitively that the "Superb Dispelling" Xykon used in that fight is word for word identical with the "Superb Dispelling" in the SRD.

It's not actually possible to create the SRD version of Superb Dispelling using the epic spell rules. The SRD version says merely says "as greater dispel magic" - but the dispel seed used to create it actually goes far beyond what GDM is capable of, such as being able to dispel supernatural abilities, suppress artifacts and dispel the protections of gods themselves.

To learn an epic spell you must research it, so Xykon must have done so. It is impossible to know what is in his version, and he was free to call it "Superb Dispelling" even so.


In addition to all of that, even if he was using the SRD version, each of the splices would have to be level 50 to be out of reach of that version's effects - and even if they were, there's always the chance he simply rolled a natural 20.

[Darth Paul]

Batman's style works great because it's his name on the comic, after all, where in an RPG you have to actually do that prep work yourself.

Batman also lives in a comic book, with writers who make the plot happen in exactly the way they predetermined it would, so that his Bat-Shark-Repellent was guaranteed to be ready today. That's why he's (I believe) a Trope Codifier for "Crazy Prepared" over on TV Tropes.

Trouble is, there is a lot of friction in real life or real RPGs when opposing forces meet your well-laid plans. The monsters turn left instead of right; make the saving throw; have an ally that attacks you unexpectedly, forcing you to deal with them instead of pulling off your intricate booby trap scheme.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching the Batman work. But it's all fiction. Most people who try to copy him just end up hurting themselves.

[Nilehus]

To learn an epic spell you must research it, so Xykon must have done so. It is impossible to know what is in his version, and he was free to call it "Superb Dispelling" even so.


In addition to all of that, even if he was using the SRD version, each of the splices would have to be level 50 to be out of reach of that version's effects - and even if they were, there's always the chance he simply rolled a natural 20.

I'm going to go with that it's the SRD version of Superb Dispelling, since there's actually a spell called that. If he had said "Xykon's Superb Dispelling", yeah, that's a whole different story.

V was level 15 at the time, I believe? 14 or 15? Going with a CL of 14 for V, two CL's of minimum 21 for the two souls attached, if they stacked, they'd be looking at a CL of 55. Unless Xykon's level 36, he would not have been able to break it, even with a natural 20. But if the spell was cast with the CL of the specific soul that cast it, or ~21 in this case, Xykon would very likely be able to dispel it. That's what I meant. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

I'm going to go with that it's the SRD version of Superb Dispelling, since there's actually a spell called that. If he had said "Xykon's Superb Dispelling", yeah, that's a whole different story.

Again, the SRD version of Superb Dispelling can't actually exist as written. Or rather, it can, but only due to WotC failing to understand their own rules (which is not outside the realm of possibility.) So pointing at that one and saying "it is clearly this version, so what happened in the comic doesn't make sense" is itself a nonsensical argument.

Also, your own calculation is wrong because you do not stack caster level for all your classes in gestalt. They are counted separately. A wizard 20//sorcerer 20 does not have CL 40.

[Nilehus]

Again, the SRD version of Superb Dispelling can't actually exist as written. Or rather, it can, but only due to WotC failing to understand their own rules (which is not outside the realm of possibility.) So pointing at that one and saying "it is clearly this version, so what happened in the comic doesn't make sense" is itself a nonsensical argument.

Contradictory to the Dispel seed, yes. However, there is still a spell that WotC made for 3.5 called Superb Dispelling. If V casts Disintegrate, we don't assume that they researched a custom spell that's also named Disintegrate.


Also, your own calculation is wrong because you do not stack caster level for all your classes in gestalt. They are counted separately. A wizard 20//sorcerer 20 does not have CL 40.

Under normal circumstances? Yes. A soul splice falls a bit outside that, however.

Hm... Come to think of it, V lost their buffs that they had cast when they still had all three souls. So most likely it's by each caster. Well, that answers that for me.

[137beth]

Contradictory to the Dispel seed, yes. However, there is still a spell that WotC made for 3.5 called Superb Dispelling. If V casts Disintegrate, we don't assume that they researched a custom spell that's also named Disintegrate.


That's because it's actually possible to learn "by-the-book" nonepic spells without specifically researching them as custom spells. It isn't possible to do that with epic spells. The ELH makes it very clear that all epic spells are custom spells. V could have learned a by-the-book disintegrate from leveling up, or from a scroll, or from another wizard. On the other hand, Xykon had to have personally researched his own custom epic dispel spell, because that is how epic spells work.

[Nilehus]

That's because it's actually possible to learn "by-the-book" nonepic spells without specifically researching them as custom spells. It isn't possible to do that with epic spells. The ELH makes it very clear that all epic spells are custom spells. V could have learned a by-the-book disintegrate from leveling up, or from a scroll, or from another wizard. On the other hand, Xykon had to have personally researched his own custom epic dispel spell, because that is how epic spells work.

Ah. Thanks for the explanation! (I do not play Epic campaigns, and I typically don't do magic. Last one I ran was Mask of the Betrayer, and I don't think anyone actually counts that. :smalltongue:)

So.. WotC actually went out of their way to provide an example to 'help' people, and it's completely wrong. Man, I thought they were better than that. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

So.. WotC actually went out of their way to provide an example to 'help' people, and it's completely wrong. Man, I thought they were better than that. :smallwink:

If they actually understood the epic rules they printed, they would likely have scrapped them all and started over, so this is no surprise :smalltongue:

[Nilehus]

That's why I like the 9-13 range for my games. Strong enough to take on even a whole pack of housecats, but low-level enough that martial types like my favorite, the Paladin, don't get completely overshadowed.

And looking at the rules for Epic spells... Yeah, I'm going to keep it that way. These are just... Well, stupid.

[Story]

"Concern"? From power-tripping Vaarsuvius? V just blasted away and assumed it would work.


I assumed Vaarsuvius would be very careful when her children are on the line. She specifically prepared for the Black Dragon fight.

It wasn't until Xykon that she started getting careless and impatient (plus she hadn't prepared for it).

In addition to all of that, even if he was using the SRD version, each of the splices would have to be level 50 to be out of reach of that version's effects - and even if they were, there's always the chance he simply rolled a natural 20.

Natural 20s only auto succeed on attack rolls and saving throws. And they wouldn't have to be level 50 if the CLs stacked. We have no way to know whether they did or not, but it's plausible.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching the Batman work. But it's all fiction. Most people who try to copy him just end up hurting themselves.

The reason Batman Wizard works so well in practice is that you don't have to prepare overly specific and elaborate measures ahead of time. D&D Wizards are more like Batman with a Green Lantern Ring.

First off, there are tons of powerful spells that are useful in a wide variety of circumstances (there have been sessions where I've prepared Polymorph in every single slot and not regretted it).

Second, there are ways to get spontaneous casting, meaning you can call on the overly specific spells when necessary with little loss of power.

Third, there's lots of cheap magical trinkets and scrolls you can collect to fill in the gaps.


In my admittedly limited experience playing Wizards, the only time I've been caught unprepared is one time when I made a really stupid decision preparing my spell slots due to OOC inexperience*. And even then, it's more like "Oh no, all of my instant win buttons are 8 hours away so we'll have to use a suboptimal solution instead if we want to finish this quest today".

* Specifically preparing Shrink Item three times even though the planned usage was out of combat and hence I could have just left the slots unfilled and used the 15 minute rule at no cost. And then not buying any scrolls either due to laziness. And also misunderstanding what we were going to be doing due to confusion about what happened in the previous session.

[137beth]

Ah. Thanks for the explanation! (I do not play Epic campaigns, and I typically don't do magic. Last one I ran was Mask of the Betrayer, and I don't think anyone actually counts that. :smalltongue:)

So.. WotC actually went out of their way to provide an example to 'help' people, and it's completely wrong. Man, I thought they were better than that. :smallwink:

They also had a trend where a big portion of printed NPC stat-blocks have mistakes (illegal combinations, too few feats, etc.) :smalltongue:

[Kish]

I assumed Vaarsuvius would be very careful when her children are on the line.
And yet, s/he started off with a mere sixth-level spell which (one of) wasn't even enough to kill the young black dragon, followed by taunting the ancient black dragon about how much her son suffered. S/he made no efforts at all to impede the ancient black dragon from turning and blasting her/his entire family into a puddle of acidic goo; s/he is only lucky she never chose to do so.

[137beth]

And yet, s/he started off with a mere sixth-level spell which (one of) wasn't even enough to kill the young black dragon, followed by taunting the ancient black dragon about how much her son suffered. S/he made no efforts at all to impede the ancient black dragon from turning and blasting her/his entire family into a puddle of acidic goo; s/he is only lucky she never chose to do so.

Care and caution never seemed like a priority for Soul-spliced V, even when his/her family was in immediate danger.
Heck, it wasn't even V's top priority before the soul splice, since there was another (perceived) plan V could have taken.

[Story]

The Soul Splice plan had better odds of success though.

[Kish]

...Okay, you now seem to be arguing that Vaarsuvius' actions when s/he was at the height of irrationality were actually based on careful thought.

Whether the alternate plan had worse "odds of success" is immaterial. Vaarsuvius...Vaarsuvius must succeed.

[zimmerwald1915]

Indeed. Elan might technically qualify in that he doesn't cast any of his spells all that often, but when he does, he reaches for his highest-level ones first like every other character in the comic, not for lower-level ones because blah blah Batman.
This, like the statement by 137ben that it quotes, is a claim without a foundation. Elan used mass cure light wounds exactly twice: once during the denouement of Don't Split the Party, where it was explicitly the only (and thus both highest-level and lowest-level) healing spell he knew at the time, and once in the fight with Redcloak's sand elemental, where it was also the only healing spell he knew at the time. He's used mending, a cantrip, as many times as he's used mass cure light wounds. He's used lesser confusion as many times. He's used silent image many more times; during Blood Runs in the Family he used it as many times as he used mass cure light wounds (that is, once).

Also, going by Elan's statements at the end of Don't Split the Party, he only just attained Bard 14 after the end of Blood Runs in the Family, and his remaining levels are in Dashing Swordsman.

(This post is in no way an excuse to get a checkmark to appear by the thread.)

[Kish]

I concede; clearly Elan is Batman.

[137beth]

I concede; clearly Elan is Batman.

Therkla agrees. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Therkla agrees. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html)

Well, not entirely. Therkla isn't really much of a Batman wizard, though

[evileeyore]

I concede; clearly Elan is Batman.
Dun-nu-nu-nu-nu-nu-nu! BARDMAN! Bardman!

[martianmister]

Therkla agrees. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html)

Robin =/= Batman.

[Reddish Mage]

I concede; clearly Elan is Batman.

You realize playing that concept out to the fullest makes Elan the most powerful member of the OOTS!?

[Keltest]

You realize playing that concept out to the fullest makes Elan the most powerful member of the OOTS!?

Well, he is the most optimized member (as far as we can tell)

[Reddish Mage]

That's why I like the 9-13 range for my games. Strong enough to take on even a whole pack of housecats, but low-level enough that martial types like my favorite, the Paladin, don't get completely overshadowed.

And looking at the rules for Epic spells... Yeah, I'm going to keep it that way. These are just... Well, stupid.

Incidentally, I think these are the levels where the spellcasters start to overshadow the other players if people are putting in a little effort (I've seen it done earlier).

[orrion]

Well, he is the most optimized member (as far as we can tell)

Huh, I thought optimized bards chose a ranged setup instead of melee.

[Keltest]

Huh, I thought optimized bards chose a ranged setup instead of melee.

Keep in mine, were comparing him against the rest of the Order...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Keep in mine, were comparing him against the rest of the Order...

What!? Clearly the pure fighter, the blaster mage, and the ranger who uses almost none of his class abilities are paragons of optimization!

[Story]

Pure Fighter with high INT.

[Nilehus]

Pure Fighter with high INT.

To be fair, his STR and CON didn't suffer for it.

... But still...

Single-classed Fighter.

Almost as much of a waste as a Cleric that spends most of his spells on Cure X Wounds.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To be fair, his STR and CON didn't suffer for it.

... But still...

Single-classed Fighter.

Almost as much of a waste as a Cleric that spends most of his spells on Cure X Wounds.

Yep, like I said, paragons of optimization. :smalltongue:

[137beth]

To be fair, his STR and CON didn't suffer for it.

... But still...

Single-classed Fighter.

Almost as much of a waste as a Cleric that spends most of his spells on Cure X Wounds.

And with a high INT, Str, and CON, he would be perfect as a warblade...

[Psyren]

Pure Fighter with high INT.


And with a high INT, Str, and CON, he would be perfect as a warblade...

Funny joke here about Roy's class. SSDT spoiler:

During their fight, 4e Roy remarks on how smart Roy is and asks why he didn't go with Warblade instead of Fighter. Roy snaps "You know as well as I do that dad wouldn't have paid for a PhD program!"

So at least in that continuity, Warblade was something Roy considered to make use of his mental stats.