Dragon Encounter Fairness

[prufock]

Reading this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358962-quot-This-encounter-is-dumb-quot-apparently-one-player-didn-t-like-my-Dragons-venting) thread got me thinking about my own upcoming dragon encounter, and how fair it will be to my party. If you have a moment, I'd like thoughts on how brutal this will be.

The party level is currently 11, but they will be reaching 12 before the dragon encounter. The party consists of:
Ser Leon: Human Knight 12. He has a few extra bonus feats including Wild Cohort, though that will be useless here. Also has Leadership and a halfling healer 9 for support. He's quite tank-y, usually draws the majority of the damage and keeps kicking.
Ser Maleera: Human Warlock 3/Wizard 3/Eldritch Theurge 6. She's playing a more "blasty" wizard rather than "batman/god" wizard. Great at clearing mooks, not so great against anything with SR and high saves, though she has a few backup options. Fragile, though.
Whitebranch: Elven Druid 12. Versatile with wild shape, prefers cave T-rex form for combat. Has a fleshraker companion and usually selects pretty good spells.
Nom: Lesser Earth Genasi Warblade 12. The party's heaviest hitter, capable of dishing out quite a bit of damage per round using Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack along with his maneuvers.
Optimization level varies, and the party doesn't always think the most tactically. The druid player is the least experienced, but has the most potentially powerful character. I have warned them that a dragon is powerful for its CR, that it can fly, that it has terrain advantage, etc; I want them to be sure they know what they're getting into here.

Huge Mature Adult Spellhoarding White Dragon
Defense: 240 hp; AC 34, touch 28, FF 34; FORT +18, REF +13, WILL +13; Immune to Cold, Sleep and Paralysis; Resist Fire 10; DR 10/magic; SR 22; Blindsense 60'
Offense: Bite +27 (2d6+8), Claws +22 (1d8+4), Wings +22 (1d6+4), Tail +22 (1d8+12); Breath 40' cone of cold 7d6 (Ref DC 25 half); Frightful Presence DC 21 vs shake 4d6 rounds; Grapple +37
Spells/SLAs: Gust of Wind, Fog Cloud, Scintillating Scales, Resist Energy, Mage Armor, Instant Diversion, Resistance, Detect Magic, True Strike, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Expeditious Retreat, Invisibility (last 5 are in spellhoard)
Feats: Wingover, Snatch, Flyby Attack
Skills: Climb +25, Notice +25 (houserule combined skill), Intimidate +25
She's fairly brutal. The full BAB characters should be able to hit her on a 14 or so, if they can get to her. The theurge will have trouble hitting her touch AC, but has area affect spells and other options like party buffs and summons. The dragon reserves her spellhoard, focusing on the buffs she has active (which don't apply if the PCs miraculously surprise her).

The dragon is at a big advantage here. First, its den is on a mountain, about a day's climb. By level 12, the eldritch theurge should have teleport; however, that will only get them on the mountain near the den, not inside (since it has never been viewed). The dragon does patrols, and will have a pretty good chance of knowing they're nearby. The mountain is icy and snowy, and while some members of the party have ways to fly, others will be climbing.
The dragon's basic tactic will be flyby breath weapon; fly away to cool down, then do another pass. If breath weapons don't work (the party may have their own cold protection spells), she can snatch and drop the poor suckers down the mountain if they don't have flight or some other way to save themselves. I'll probably rule that they hit the mountain 1d20x10 feet down, so they have a chance of surviving and returning to the fight (no falls from a mile high). Two of the party can outright fly, and two probably have the HP to deal with the fall. She'll only stand and fight if she can get one alone.

If reduced below half HP, the dragon will retreat to her den to lie in wait and hopefully pop off a quick breath weapon as the party enters. In this more confined space, she'll focus on ground attacks to stand and fight, probably spreading out her attacks so I don't massacre one of the PCs. If reduced below 1/4 HP, she will retreat again, this time to a smaller den where her eggs and small hoard are located, and collapse the entrance. The PCs will have to dig or melt their way inside. Here she makes her last stand, going all out.
The mountain itself may be their biggest enemy in this. While there are trails on the lower portion, the upper area is pretty bleak, and they will basically be hugging the rock face for a while if they are limited to climbing the old fashioned way. They have the equipment for it, and if they're smart enough to tie off their ropes, they won't fall unless the ropes break (though that's easy for a dragon). The dragon's retreats will give them a chance for a bit of healing, re-applying buffs, and perhaps re-evaluating tactics.

The party won't necessarily be alone, nor will the dragon. There are NPCs nearby that can be of some assistance (another adventuring party, a band of stone giants) if the party seeks the help. This would give them greater access to flight and more bodies to take on the dragon. However, there are also a succubus (without teleportation) and a kobold trapsmith - both of which are ECL 12 - attempting to reach the dragon first. This is almost a 0-sum situation - to get the help, they have to waste time during which the succubus and kobold can get a head start. If they go on they can intercept the succubus and kobold first, but will be on their own. The EL could therefore vary, but I'm specifically looking at the dragon itself.
What do you think? Is this going to wipe my party?

[Valluman]

I'd say this has a good chance of wiping the party. If the primary form of attack the dragon has is to fly-by-attack and use her breath weapon, this leaves the druid and the blaster as your primary, if only, forms of damage to harm the dragon. That leaves your knight and kensai to defend the casters from the succubus and the kobold, who both have more utility than the knight, and the succubus can summon in more demons if the need calls for it. If she snatches a character, especially a caster, there's not much the others can do to stop her.

The party can play it smart; they really should consider the NPC assistance. They should also try and figure out how to ground the dragon before committing to combat with her. If they play it smart, it could be a fairly even and interesting fight. If they just go up there without any assistance or plan, though, there's a high chance of death.

[prufock]

I'd say this has a good chance of wiping the party. If the primary form of attack the dragon has is to fly-by-attack and use her breath weapon, this leaves the druid and the blaster as your primary, if only, forms of damage to harm the dragon. That leaves your knight and kensai to defend the casters from the succubus and the kobold, who both have more utility than the knight, and the succubus can summon in more demons if the need calls for it. If she snatches a character, especially a caster, there's not much the others can do to stop her.
I'll clarify a couple points. First, the succubus doesn't have summoning or teleportation. She is still able to become ethereal, though, and will use it as a "get outta Dodge" plan. She has a few monk levels. I've been playing the kobold carefully, because he would otherwise be an easy kill for the PCs. He will lay traps and such, staying away from melee at all costs (though the Knight's test of mettle can change that).

Also, the kobold and succubus are currently separated. If the party pursues, they will likely catch at least one of them (they just escaped from the PCs) before tackling the mountain. If they wait, they will almost guaranteed have assistance. The party can also beg or borrow some equipment from the stone giants (I can customize what's available).

The mountain really presents a challenge, particularly for the warblade and knight. The knight can still do Test of Mettle on the dragon, but it can pass a save on a 5, I think. The warblade has a wicked jump check, but then what?


The party can play it smart; they really should consider the NPC assistance. They should also try and figure out how to ground the dragon before committing to combat with her. If they play it smart, it could be a fairly even and interesting fight. If they just go up there without any assistance or plan, though, there's a high chance of death.
I agree. I'm trying to coax them to think tactically on this one, which may come in the form of NPC advice, but I'm not going to lead them by the nose or hold their hands. They will have access to teleport, which could mean a getaway plan if things go south.

The party has a history of success against enemies with CR up to 5 higher than their average level, despite things like the eldritch theurge wading into melee for no reason. We've had a couple character deaths over the last 10 levels - one through shadow strength drain, one to a save or die - so they know I'm not going to pull my punches much. We do have a house rule of the "death save" - you can fall into negatives up to your con mod, after which you make saves with DC = the absolute value of hit point total. My largest concern is them thinking they can ground and pound on this one, which is often their "shoot first, ask questions later" tactic.

Any suggestions for further assistance to the PCs? I could certainly edit the mountain terrain to give them opportunities for cover and such, but the mountain is established.

Another tactic they could take is to bait it. It is known for picking off the occasional meal of stone giant.

[prufock]

Apologies for the double post, but given the terrain features and the dragon's tactics, what CR do you think would be a tough fight, but winnable, for the party? A CR 10 is Large instead of Huge, so it loses Snatch as a tactic at least. It also loses Scintillating Scales since its CL is only 1 (I might change it from Spellhoarding to standard if that's the case).

Alternately, how could I boost the party to make them capable of meeting this challenge. Giving them all some better way to deal with the mountain (like flight, spider-climbing, or what have you) would certainly help.

Any assistance is appreciated. I want to make this a brutal fight for the party, but I'd rather not kill any of them, and certainly don't want a TPK.

[Slipperychicken]

Do the PCs know they're going up against a dragon? If that's the case, they shouldn't have too much of a problem prepping the right spells to fight it. The wizard's spells affect the dragon 50% of the time, which should be fine if he's smart.

If they get the Warblade up to it, it'll probably go down quickly.

[Vogonjeltz]

Reading this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358962-quot-This-encounter-is-dumb-quot-apparently-one-player-didn-t-like-my-Dragons-venting) thread got me thinking about my own upcoming dragon encounter, and how fair it will be to my party. If you have a moment, I'd like thoughts on how brutal this will be.

The party level is currently 11, but they will be reaching 12 before the dragon encounter. The party consists of:
Ser Leon: Human Knight 12. He has a few extra bonus feats including Wild Cohort, though that will be useless here. Also has Leadership and a halfling healer 9 for support. He's quite tank-y, usually draws the majority of the damage and keeps kicking.
Ser Maleera: Human Warlock 3/Wizard 3/Eldritch Theurge 6. She's playing a more "blasty" wizard rather than "batman/god" wizard. Great at clearing mooks, not so great against anything with SR and high saves, though she has a few backup options. Fragile, though.
Whitebranch: Elven Druid 12. Versatile with wild shape, prefers cave T-rex form for combat. Has a fleshraker companion and usually selects pretty good spells.
Nom: Lesser Earth Genasi Warblade 12. The party's heaviest hitter, capable of dishing out quite a bit of damage per round using Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack along with his maneuvers.
Optimization level varies, and the party doesn't always think the most tactically. The druid player is the least experienced, but has the most potentially powerful character. I have warned them that a dragon is powerful for its CR, that it can fly, that it has terrain advantage, etc; I want them to be sure they know what they're getting into here.

Huge Mature Adult Spellhoarding White Dragon
Defense: 240 hp; AC 34, touch 28, FF 34; FORT +18, REF +13, WILL +13; Immune to Cold, Sleep and Paralysis; Resist Fire 10; DR 10/magic; SR 22; Blindsense 60'
Offense: Bite +27 (2d6+8), Claws +22 (1d8+4), Wings +22 (1d6+4), Tail +22 (1d8+12); Breath 40' cone of cold 7d6 (Ref DC 25 half); Frightful Presence DC 21 vs shake 4d6 rounds; Grapple +37
Spells/SLAs: Gust of Wind, Fog Cloud, Scintillating Scales, Resist Energy, Mage Armor, Instant Diversion, Resistance, Detect Magic, True Strike, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Expeditious Retreat, Invisibility (last 5 are in spellhoard)
Feats: Wingover, Snatch, Flyby Attack
Skills: Climb +25, Notice +25 (houserule combined skill), Intimidate +25
She's fairly brutal. The full BAB characters should be able to hit her on a 14 or so, if they can get to her. The theurge will have trouble hitting her touch AC, but has area affect spells and other options like party buffs and summons. The dragon reserves her spellhoard, focusing on the buffs she has active (which don't apply if the PCs miraculously surprise her).

The dragon is at a big advantage here. First, its den is on a mountain, about a day's climb. By level 12, the eldritch theurge should have teleport; however, that will only get them on the mountain near the den, not inside (since it has never been viewed). The dragon does patrols, and will have a pretty good chance of knowing they're nearby. The mountain is icy and snowy, and while some members of the party have ways to fly, others will be climbing.
The dragon's basic tactic will be flyby breath weapon; fly away to cool down, then do another pass. If breath weapons don't work (the party may have their own cold protection spells), she can snatch and drop the poor suckers down the mountain if they don't have flight or some other way to save themselves. I'll probably rule that they hit the mountain 1d20x10 feet down, so they have a chance of surviving and returning to the fight (no falls from a mile high). Two of the party can outright fly, and two probably have the HP to deal with the fall. She'll only stand and fight if she can get one alone.

If reduced below half HP, the dragon will retreat to her den to lie in wait and hopefully pop off a quick breath weapon as the party enters. In this more confined space, she'll focus on ground attacks to stand and fight, probably spreading out her attacks so I don't massacre one of the PCs. If reduced below 1/4 HP, she will retreat again, this time to a smaller den where her eggs and small hoard are located, and collapse the entrance. The PCs will have to dig or melt their way inside. Here she makes her last stand, going all out.
The mountain itself may be their biggest enemy in this. While there are trails on the lower portion, the upper area is pretty bleak, and they will basically be hugging the rock face for a while if they are limited to climbing the old fashioned way. They have the equipment for it, and if they're smart enough to tie off their ropes, they won't fall unless the ropes break (though that's easy for a dragon). The dragon's retreats will give them a chance for a bit of healing, re-applying buffs, and perhaps re-evaluating tactics.

The party won't necessarily be alone, nor will the dragon. There are NPCs nearby that can be of some assistance (another adventuring party, a band of stone giants) if the party seeks the help. This would give them greater access to flight and more bodies to take on the dragon. However, there are also a succubus (without teleportation) and a kobold trapsmith - both of which are ECL 12 - attempting to reach the dragon first. This is almost a 0-sum situation - to get the help, they have to waste time during which the succubus and kobold can get a head start. If they go on they can intercept the succubus and kobold first, but will be on their own. The EL could therefore vary, but I'm specifically looking at the dragon itself.
What do you think? Is this going to wipe my party?

Probably. Look at those characters. Where are their ranged weapons? The white dragons are depicted as by far the stupidest, but that doesn't mean it won't utterly ruin them if it takes to winging it.

[prufock]

Do the PCs know they're going up against a dragon? If that's the case, they shouldn't have too much of a problem prepping the right spells to fight it. The wizard's spells affect the dragon 50% of the time, which should be fine if he's smart.
CL 9 vs SR 22 = 40% of the time. Not bad, really, if she thinks to use Save:None spells. Plus there are a bunch of SR:No spells she could use. As long as she isn't trying to hit its AC (any type) she should be able to contribute, as should the druid. I'm more worried about the knight sitting there on the mountain face.


If they get the Warblade up to it, it'll probably go down quickly.
Yeah, this is a possibility. Getting the warblade to it may be a challenge, but I guess I'll just trust them to work together on it.


Probably. Look at those characters. Where are their ranged weapons?
Druid spells, warlock eldritch blast, wizard spells, and a longbow. The warblade has NO ranged option (but may be able to acquire some at the giant camp).

I think I will leave the encounter as is. The dragon will retreat at half hit points, and again at quarter, giving the party a respite to heal themselves up. They should know by now that flight is a requirement if they want to take on a dragon, and I've warned them that they'll need to think tactically. They know it's a white, which means they should be loading up on cold protection, and they know it's huge, which means they have an idea of its age and CR. And they have options for assistance.

Let the chips fall.