Solid Goblin characters

[Spore]

Greetings playground,

as a fellow WoW players some of my favorite races have always been "Greenskins" such as Orcs, Half-Orcs and Goblins. And while I see - narrow - use of the huge Strength bonus for Orcs and the versatility of Half-Orcs I really struggle to make Goblin characters worthwhile.

Main point of this thread is: Any build I do with an Goblin can be done better without an Goblin. But my optimization senses tell me that there HAS to be something that benefits immensely from insane Dex and a small character with still 30 feet movement. Something like special attacks depending on Dex that deal insane amounts of damage if they connect. And Dex/Finesse/Bonus to hit/Reduce Person helps with that.

Full casters "suffer" from not having a bonus on their main stat but are unharmed from being a Goblin either. So they should be ignored (unless it's stuff like Arcane Trickster).

I would love to have some ideas for Goblins characters. My current ideas are:

Goblin Blackblade Magus: Snazzy found an intelligent weapon on the dumpster. Well, not really found, more like pryed it from the still-warm hands of the previous owner. The blade resents its new owner but reluctantly changed its size once for the Goblin to fit.

Playstyle: Finesse combat with Damage mainly coming from spells. Plays also nicely into Dervish Dance.

Goblin Infiltrator Inquisitor: Everyone underestimates Goblins. The Inquisition has made this discovery on themselves and sends out the Inquisitor to purge the enemies of the faith. Still I feel weird playing a pious Goblin.

Playstyle: Damage mainly from Bane and Judgment. Very odd to be played outside of those skills.

Goblin Rogue: It's as iconic as it can get. You can basically call this the "ugly Halfling rogue".

Playstyle: Much subterfuge, damage from sneak attacks, possibly poison. Still, quite poor due to being a rogue.

I could honestly create a Goblin Wizard and "win Pathfinder" but what fun is that? Also I don't know Psionics since it's 3rd party or still in English and thusly not allowed for us. I may create a Psionic villain for my own campaign but it has a quite outlandish feel to it since it would be a snowflake.

[stack]

Gunslingers love the dex and don't mind the size too much.

[Kudaku]

The goblin alchemist is a popular build, they even get their own archetype: The Fire bomber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin/fire-bomber-alchemist-goblin). While it would be nice to have a +2 in Intelligence, the +4 to dex means you can invest a bit more in INT and still have an excellent ranged attack bonus.

Dervish of Dawn bard is a decent option.

Edit: Infiltrator Inquisitor goblin could be interesting. Play him as a goblin troubled by how all the big 'uns are losing their minds coz dey keep readin'! Make him do his utmost to burn books, torch depositories and destroy places of learning to bring glory to his god and better the life of everyone around him.

[Vhaidara]

I've made a few PF goblins...
There was Vralla (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=866985), whose campaign died. Feral Gnasher archetype barbarian. Not powerful, but really funny.
Then I had Luba Firetongue (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=926911), an alchemist using Fire Bomber and Trochbearer (GM let me back the Torchbearer's explosive torch ability back two levels to prevent overlap. Sadly wasn't accepted, but still, a fun little pyromaniac.

[Slipperychicken]

Gunslingers love the dex and don't mind the size too much.

I've been kicking this idea around in my head for a while. Might as well give it stats:

Goblin Musket Master3/Trench Fighter17


ECL Class Feat(s) Other
[td] 1 Musket Master 1 Point Blank Shot Rapid Reload (Musket), Deeds, Gunsmith
[td] 2 Musket Master 2
[td] 3 Musket Master 3 Precise Shot Fast Musket (Reload like a pistol)
[td] 4 Trench Fighter 1 Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim
[td] 5 Trench Fighter 2 Weapon Focus(Musket)
[td] 6 Trench Fighter 3
[td] 7 Trench Fighter 4 Snap Shot, Combat Reflexes
[td] 8 Trench Fighter 5
[td] 9 Trench Fighter 6 Imp. Snap Shot, Imp. Unarmed Strike
[td] 10 Trench Fighter 7
[td] 11 Trench Fighter 8 Snake Style, Deflect Arrows
[td] 12 Trench Fighter 9
[td] 13 Trench Fighter 10 Weapon Specialization line?
[td] 14 Trench Fighter 11
[td] 15 Trench Fighter 12 Roll With It?
[td] 16 Trench Fighter 13
[td] 17 Trench Fighter 14 I don't even know, just make something up
[td] 18 Trench Fighter 15
[td] 19 Trench Fighter 16
[td] 20 Trench Fighter 17 [td]

[AvatarVecna]

You could go Barbarian. Whether you play a scout, a mounted savage, or a whirling berserker, you can build something fairly decent, although hardly easy to optimize. My suggestion: Use your high Dex to make the TWF feats easier to access, and use Rage to pump Str. The usual Barbarian optimization techniques mostly expect a huge starting Str, but still work so long as you can get Power Attack.

Cleric works alright: +4 Dex means you don't really need to spend anything on it (or Int or Cha, due to their limited usefulness to the class), allowing you to pump Wis, Str, and Con. Use buff spells to turn the party into combat machines.

Druid is great: ride your animal mount around, casting spells; the huge Dex bonus will make surviving to Wild Shape easier, at which point you never need your own physical stats again. Combine Spells with Wild Shape and learn why a lot of people thought Druids to be OP.

Fighter allows you to be great at a lot of fighting styles; I suggest you go ranged, as your Str penalty and high Dex won't allow for the best melee armor. Archery is good, but guns are better (for you): pump Dex into the stratosphere, and take Goblin Gunslinger to wield Medium firearms as if they were Small. Go Trench Fighter, max out your gunslinging prowess, and don't look back. Note: this is why gunslinger is another good choice; as with the already suggested build, I suggest mixing Fighter (TF) and Gunslinger; Musket Master makes for a wonderful sniper, while Pistolero and Trench Fighter together can give triple Dex mod to damage (assuming your DM doesn't care how supposedly "OP" a character without spellcasting gets).

Monk can work, but is terrible when you can't have a decent Str. You have a penalty, so unless you feel like optimizing hard to only end up decent, steer clear of this.

Rogue is awesome for you: your +4 Dex and +4 Stealth allow you to be sneakier than just about anyone else. Take advantage of that. I recommend the Knife Master archetype (your base damage will never be impressive anyway), and Weapon Finesse your way to Assassin-hood.

Gunslinger: see the note in the Fighter entry.

Alchemist: don't bother with being Mr. Hyde. Go full mad bomber, raining alchemical destruction on your enemies while cackling madly. It'll be fun, if nothing else.

Witch is decent, since Str is negligible and Dex helps AC. Put Pump Int, Dex, and Con, while dumping Cha and Str; Wis shouldn't be too high or low, but other than that is unimportant for the most part.

[grarrrg]

Feral Gnasher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin/feral-gnasher-barbarian-goblin) Barbarian can be pretty sweet.
It gives you a decent Bite attack with an x3 crit-multiplier (may as well cash in your Skilled trait for the Teeth for a damage boost).
Throw Anything and Improvised Weapon Mastery as bonus feats, and the ability to grab unattended objects as Free Actions.
As you level you gain the ability to Grapple with you teeth without gaining the Grappled condition yourself, and you can Teeth-Grapple creatures up to 3 sizes larger than you.
And starting at level 12 you get a Competence bonus to Natural Attack and Improvised damage, tops out at +5 at level 20.

Goblin Alchemists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-goblin/fire-bomber-alchemist-goblin) aren't too bad either, although a little too focused on FIRE damage.


For Gunslingers there's the Goblin Gunslinger feat, lets you use Medium Firearms without penalty, typically only worth +1 damage per attack, but it has potential.

[Slipperychicken]

For Gunslingers there's the Goblin Gunslinger feat, lets you use Medium Firearms without penalty, typically only worth +1 damage per attack, but it has potential.

Also important is Goblins' size. They can ride medium mounts and take full advantage of the increased mobility. Inside dungeons. While moving 50ft and making ranged full attacks every round. Basically take the build I posted before, stick it on a pony (or a flying mount, such as a giant bee), and kite like a pro.

If you really need a beefy scaling mount, you can take Skill Focus -> Eldritch Heritage (The bloodline which gives you an Animal Companion) Nature Soul (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/nature-soul) -> Animal Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally). I'm kind of torn on it though, considering that it costs a feat tax and gunslingers are already feat-starved for the first few levels. However, once you get the mandatory feats, you have some degree of freedom.

EDIT: Mounted gun-slinging is especially nice for keeping yourself inside the first range increment to consistently score those delicious Touch AC full-attacks.

[Spore]

Monk can work, but is terrible when you can't have a decent Str. You have a penalty, so unless you feel like optimizing hard to only end up decent, steer clear of this.

Actually Monk of the Four Winds combined with Rogue makes for a decent flanking guy. Flurrying sneak attacks (and later on getting a Elemental Amulet of Mighty Fists should amount in decent damage.

(Which is of course, as most fun builds entirely stopped by damage reduction)

[weckar]

Goblins make amazing gunners, due to their naturally high DEX. Go Trench fighter, pick up Goblin Gunslinger (and maybe Roll with It to keep you out of melee), then probably go Ranger with FE(Human) because that never hurts.
Basic? Yes. Overpowered? Nope. Competitive? I'd say so. Pepperbox those mo-fos.

[AnonymousPepper]

In 3.5 and 3.PF, if you have something like a Dragonfire Inspiration bard in the party, to-hit becomes by far the most important part of your attack.

A straight Goblin ToB initiator using Weapon Finesse and an Elven Courtblade - or better yet, TWFing with an Elven Thinblade and an Elven Lightblade - in conjunction with a source of huge on-hit damage like for example the aforementioned DFI bard becomes an absolute monster because of its already high dexterity and small size. Alternatively, pull out a Combat Reflexes + Spiked Chain + Stand Still lockdown build instead.

Anything whose abilities rely on hitting first and foremost and actual damage less would naturally synergize very well with a Goblin.

[Eldariel]

Actually, when I made my team for Afroakuma's Test of Might, I used Goblin Rogue. Why? It's simple: 30' movement speed + 60' darkvision + Dex-bonus and penalty to irrelevant stats. That's all it has going on for it but that's good enough. Of course, that was with restricted books. Whisper Gnome is almost strictly better (extra stat bonus, low-light vision, Silence spell-like, extra Hide/Move Silently bonuses, Gnome combat bonuses, Listen/Spot bonuses, Gnome options). There isn't much Goblin-only support to start with, while there's plenty of Gnome-only.

Goblin's only extra over Whisper Gnome is +4 Ride, but eh... Overall though, Goblin Rogue is quite good - 30' movement speed and Darkvision are both boons compared to standard Halfling. Tho of course, PF Halflings can get those options too through alternative racial alternatives...meh.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I had a lot of fun with my Goblin Alchemist, though it suffers a lot at low levels and I did *not* use the archetype -- I gave up bombs entirely.

It was a Beastmorph Vivisectionist build with Feral Mutagen for claw/claw/bite routine (using undead anatomy I as a backup option for natural attacks; you can just take traits to get a bite if not claws, too) all at highest BAB and with sneak attack. Used weapon finesse and piranha strike with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. You don't need a +1 on the amulet first, so you can actually get one much earlier than a +1 Agile weapon of any other kind, but still the first few levels you have to do w/o it.

Between Beastmorph and Wings discovery, he had plenty of flight. Roll With It (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/roll-with-it-combat-goblin) feat (one of my favorites in PF) meant he could easily escape from harm (I took a trait for tumble as a class skill) and use his wings to bounce *up* safely. Once he hit level 10 he had pounce, so he could partial charge right back into melee with a full attack despite being staggered. Though, before level 10 the fairly cheap Ring of Ferocious Action lets you ignore staggered 5 rounds per day as a free action anyway.

Alchemical Allocation was used heavily to get a high CL potion of Greater Magic Fang on his attacks, among other uses of it. Greater Invisibility and Fluid Form are both also quite incredible.

Other discoveries included a tentacle (could've just as easily been vestigial arm, I liked tentacle better for gross-out factor) to use a darkwood heavy shield and a tumor familiar Compsognathus that later got upgraded (Imp. Familiar) to a Faerie Dragon.

Pretty effective dex-based melee fighter, all in all. Couldn't pump out the damage of a str-based enlarged / monstrous physique (Calikang for 6 arms) melee alchemist, but was much more acrobatic and hard to hurt and still could unleash a lot of pain by mid levels.

[weckar]

A Beguiler in pathfinder? Can someone source that? I want it.

[grarrrg]

A Beguiler in pathfinder? Can someone source that? I want it.

It's called "someone doesn't pay attention to thread tags".
Any Beguiler that may be in PF would be 3rd party.

[Corvino]

There's one character over on the Paizo boards on the "Ladies and Gentlemen, let's make the rogue work" thread dedicated to a stealth goblin. I can't be bothered to leaf through the >1000 posts in that thread right now, but let me tell you it's a bit nasty.

It's not going to remake reality according to its whim like a full caster, but that little fella can hide in plain sight in broad daylight against just about anything. And magical detection doesn't work because it's mundane stealth. It may not kill much alone, but it'll be impossible to find and nigh impossible to kill.

[Synar]

I would like to emphasize the suggestion to make a gunslinger using a medium mount that can actually fit in a dungeon (so mobility, kiting, and bonus to attack from dex and size).

[weckar]

I would like to emphasize the suggestion to make a gunslinger using a medium mount that can actually fit in a dungeon (so mobility, kiting, and bonus to attack from dex and size).Depending on campaign, Gunslinger might oddly be one of the worst classes to with to be good with firearms...

[Slipperychicken]

Depending on campaign, Gunslinger might oddly be one of the worst classes to with to be good with firearms...

What do you mean? If you're using firearms, you generally want at least a one-level dip into the class (or a 3-level dip for Fast Musket, or a 5-level dip for dex to damage). The 1-level dip gets you a number of things which are very handy for gun-users (proficiency, quick-clear deed, free starter gun, gunsmithing feat), which would otherwise cost a lot of feats to get. Even with "Guns Everywhere" tech level, a 1-level dip still gets you dex to damage. If your GM refuses to have NPCs who sell firearms or ammunition, you still have your starter weapon, and can craft your own guns and ammo relatively quickly and cheaply (1 day of downtime +1000gp can get you 1000 normal shots, 833 paper cartridge shots, or 666 metal cartridge shots).

Granted, your GM can theoretically screw you over by having a "guns everywhere" setting (no free Gunsmtih feat), but not having anyone craft or sell firearms or ammo to you. Even in this bizarre scenario (I could see it happening in a zombie apocalypse or something), however, a gunslinger dip gets you dex-to-damage, and you can still take Gunsmithing with one of your normal feats without being too badly inconvenienced by it.


I would like to emphasize the suggestion to make a gunslinger using a medium mount that can actually fit in a dungeon (so mobility, kiting, and bonus to attack from dex and size).

This, because it can't be emphasized enough. I've been saying this for years. Speaking from experience, playing a 'mounted archer' with a medium mount is like spending 110gp to get free-action movement for 50ft every round, while having the option to penalize attack rolls to move even farther (-4 for 100ft, -8 for 200ft). You could potentially move all the way across the map in 1 round, without spending significant resources, while full attacking. It's practically a no-brainer for Small characters. Bonus points if you have a flying mount.

[weckar]

Gun training actually doesn't come online until 5th level, while a Trench fighter could have a similar ability by 3rd. The choice on starting gun is fairly limited, and comes with limitations that a 'real' gun doesn't have. Gunsmithing is nice, but unless your 1st level feat is not a Combat feat, you'd be able to pick it up with a level of Fighter just as easily while building towards better abilities. I'll grant you Quick Clear, but whether that's worth the dip?

[Slipperychicken]

Gun training actually doesn't come online until 5th level, while a Trench fighter could have a similar ability by 3rd. The choice on starting gun is fairly limited, and comes with limitations that a 'real' gun doesn't have. Gunsmithing is nice, but unless your 1st level feat is not a Combat feat, you'd be able to pick it up with a level of Fighter just as easily while building towards better abilities. I'll grant you Quick Clear, but whether that's worth the dip?


Firearms Proficiency. Without Gunslinger, at low tech levels, you'd have to blow a feat on EWP(Firearms), or take a 1-level dip in some other class.


How are you going to have the WBL for a gun at character generation? Even if you took the "Rich Parents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/rich-parents)" trait (not all games allow traits), you'd only be able to afford a coat pistol or sword cane pistol, which are worse than regular pistols (dealing 1d4+0, even at level 1, against Touch AC, you might as well use a crossbow). Gunslinger's free starter gun solves this problem for you. Granted, this isn't much of an issue if you start at level 3 or later, but many games start at level 1, before you can afford a gun.


The starter gun's 'limitation' is that other people have trouble using it, which isn't such a big deal when you realize that, unless someone steals that gun or pries it from your cold dead hands, you're probably the only one who's going to touch it, much less load or fire it. Also, you can upgrade the starter gun all the way to masterwork, removing this 'limitation' and giving a +1 to hit for just 300gp and a day of work (see Gunsmithing feat).

Unless you're starting at mid-levels, feats which go toward things like Gunsmithing, EWP(Firearms), and Amateur Gunslinger are going to delay the feats you need to be good with guns (i.e. PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim). Even starting at higher levels, that's at least three feats you need to cover -a huge opportunity cost to save you a 1-level dip.


Without Quick Clear (or the Gun Scavenger replacement deed), you have no way to reliably remove the broken condition in a fight. One misfire means that you either need to stop using your gun, or risk having your primary weapon explode in your face. Losing your gun can be disastrous, especially at low levels, before it's magic (since magic firearms don't explode -they just become Wrecked and can be repaired) or an advanced firearm (advanced firearms don't explode, but they're costly and unavailable in many campaigns).


If you want to use a musket, you basically need 3 levels in Musket Master (plus paper cartridges) to get free action reloads every round.


You can take Trench Fighter after the gunslinger dip, like I posted earlier in the thread. Similarly, it can be good idea for a Musket Master to go to level 5 before starting Trench Fighter, getting dex to damage a second time in exchange for two levels beyond those required for Fast Musket.

[Synar]

So, I would want to clarify, I did not mean specifically gunslinger the class, but gunslinger hte archetype. In fact any ranged archetype would get nearly the sames benefits from the size and high dex (if not from being goblin specifically [as someone pointed out a goblin gunslinger feat]).

[gomipile]

A goblin caster who specializes in things like ranged touch spells and telekinesis could benefit greatly from the extra dex.

[Slipperychicken]

So, I would want to clarify, I did not mean specifically gunslinger the class, but gunslinger hte archetype. In fact any ranged archetype would get nearly the sames benefits from the size and high dex (if not from being goblin specifically [as someone pointed out a goblin gunslinger feat]).

Agreed. I actually played a Halfling with a Sling Staff on a wolf. While the character was far from optimized, the fighting style's strengths were obvious: Even if you deal negligible damage, you're much faster and more maneuverable: You can cross the whole board in a turn, and melee enemies aren't getting anywhere near you if you're careful.

Now that I think about it, even Small spellcasters can also benefit from being mounted, for the same reasons. Their mounts can take a move before or after the rider casts a spell without triggering a Concentration check.

[Spore]

A goblin caster who specializes in things like ranged touch spells and telekinesis could benefit greatly from the extra dex.

And yet being a fullcaster makes this whole exercise pretty renundant. :smallwink:

[gomipile]

And yet being a fullcaster makes this whole exercise pretty renundant. :smallwink:

The goblin doesn't have to be a tier 1 or 2 caster for my comment to apply. A warmage or warlock would each benefit greatly from dex and small size, for instance.