Dwarf vs. Gnome

[huttj509]

First off, this is using Pathfinder.

So, I'm making a Zen Archer Monk for a campaign, and am considering switching from Dwarf to Gnome for [reasons]. Doesn't really matter why. The downside is that, well, pretty much everything Dwarf has going for it in terms of bonuses to Monk, Gnome, well, doesn't.

Looking over things though, it seems that all I'd lose would be 2 points of damage. I'm just wanting to check and see if I'm missing factors.

Stats: Dwarf has 2 wis, 2 con, -2 cha. Gnome has 2 Cha, 2 Con, and -2 str. So I lose 2 Wis, 2 Str, and gain 4 Cha.

This means my to hit (at level 3, when I get Zen archery for wis to hit) goes down by one. But wait, Gnome has a +1 size bonus to hit, for a net no change.

Dex goes down by 1 from less wis...but wait, same thing, +1 bonus to ac from size, so net 0.

Damage goes down by 1 from Str loss, and loses 1 avg damage from size of the weapon. Net loss of 2 damage.

Wis will also affect Stunning Fist DC (not a factor for zen archer until what, level 11? So not really a factor for this campaign)


As far as abilities go, Dwarf -> Gnome has
Darkvision -> Low Light Vision
+4 AC vs Giants -> +4 AC vs Giants (no change)
+2 Appraise in situations -> +4 Stealth, +2 Craft/profession
+1 hit v Orc/Goblinoid -> +1 hit vs reptilian/goblinoid
+2 save v poison/spell -> +2 save vs illusions
+4 resist bull rush/Trip -> -1 CMB/CMD
+2 perception stone stuff -> +2 perception
Autosearch for stone stuff -> Gnome Magic



Huh, less difference than I thought. Definite loss in CMB/CMD (-1), trade the autosearch for stone doors, for the awesome Gnome Magic (prestidigitation means never needing to say "what do you mean we're too muddy to see the King?"), loss in saves vs spells (man, +2 on all saves vs spells? That's kinda awesome, Dwarves), slight gain in skills (perception bonus not limited, stealth from size).

Oh, and I'll need to worry about light sources. Can probably work something out with his Half-Orc "brother" about that if we can't light something up for some reason.



Am I missing anything significant?

[StreamOfTheSky]

You're not missing much. Dwarf is the best core Zen Archer race; gnome is almost hilariously incompatible in terms of things you want vs. things you get. The stats are nearly perfect. Darkvision is huge if lighting ever comes up in your games. Stability protects against just about anything that will make you fall prone, not just tripping. Keep in mind that unlike with a crossbow, you cannot shoot a bow while prone. The +2 save vs. spells is incredible, better than a feat all on its own, also +2 vs. poison is just icing.

Dwarves are already the subject of a lot of "hur hur, you're short" jokes. Can't you just use dwarf stats, racial abilities, and medium size (you really don't want to actually be Small), and fluff yourself as being a "gnome"? Gnome is basically just a mini, more likable, suckier dwarf anyway, it's not a huge stretch.

[huttj509]

Stability protects against just about anything that will make you fall prone, not just tripping.


Stability: Dwarves gain a +4 racial bonus to their Combat Maneuver Defense when resisting a bull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground.

...Seems only to affect bull rush or trip attempts.

Also, not sure about the "(you really don't want to actually be Small)" comment. as I said, it only seems to negatively affect damage by 1 (average roll), and CMB/CMD by 1. If I'm missing something else size factors into, well, that's why I made the thread.

[avr]

Stat changes affect skills too, you lose 1 off perception & a few others, and gain 2 on your (probably unskilled) social skills. Also -1 on will saves, and a total -2 CMD (size and strength).

Stability gets referenced directly by a spell or two (Shifting Sand that I know of for sure).

Dwarves get access to the Steel Soul feat which makes that save bonus even more impressive.

On the plus side sometimes being able to ride a medium size creature like a dire bat does help.

A gnome zen archer is still definitely a viable character - all these little differences won't matter significantly unless there's another full-time archer in the party who you're competing against.

[MightyPirate]

Even still the tripping thing is a really big deal. Every time it happens you go from full attacking to a standard attack at most, that's super painful. The potential for attacks of opportunity is just a side note in comparison. If you do go this route you want to get flying or mounted ASAP. Bonus points you your party has a druid that you can help out with Mounted Combat.

Darkvision is especially important if you want to be stealthy also, maybe useful enough to trade away your perception bonus for it but it hurts cause your perception goes down already with the wisdom loss.

Steel Soul is amazing on any character but especially a monk, get saves high enough and the GM will want to through effects at other characters first just so his/her chances are better of them failing.

Don't forget about Bewildering Koan! It's better on a ninja but if you snag the Convincing Liar trait and are willing to invest in Bluff you could make your ki points go pretty far, really good deal to burn a ki and a swift action for a chance to deny the BBEG an action.

Finally there's always the Adopted trait. Why not be a dwarf who was raised by gnomes? It gives you access to the excellent Excitable trait which on a dwarf is pretty much the most hilarious roleplaying fluff you could dream of.

[StreamOfTheSky]

...Seems only to affect bull rush or trip attempts.

Also, not sure about the "(you really don't want to actually be Small)" comment. as I said, it only seems to negatively affect damage by 1 (average roll), and CMB/CMD by 1. If I'm missing something else size factors into, well, that's why I made the thread.

Hmm, Stability got referenced by spells and effects as getting added in much more in 3E than in PF, I think. I guess in PF it really is just trip, bull rush, and shifting sand. Still, getting knocked prone really does suck for an archer.

As for size...yes, it's -1 damage from the weapon, then another -1 for lower str (it's rare to find a small race w/o a str penalty....though there are some). Then if you ever should use gravity bow spell, you're getting d8 instead of 2d6 and now you're losing out on 2.5 weapon base damage. Being small w/ -2 str is probably more vexing for the -2 to CMD, though. That will definitely hurt you. Oh, and no +2 wis, so a net -3 to CMD even before stability.