My character has been gender-bended :(

[atemu1234]

My DM for a few weeks now decided to change the game up, and my PC (Human Fighter 2 / Ranger 8) was cursed to turn into a female. This imposed no real stat penalties RAW, but my DM (being kind of a jerk on this one, not going to sugar coat it) gave him/her -2 Strength +2 Dexterity. Since I'm an archer (I know the jokes. Don't make them) it was kind of a boon, but then he started throwing in a bunch of kind of sexist nonsense out of the blue. (I think he stole them from the webcomic Misfile, but those that read it should get the idea) So... what should I do? I mean, I still enjoy the character (and roleplaying it has been... interesting) but I'd like to stop having bonuses and penalties thrown at me for what equates to misogynistic rubbish. (Also, I'm a friend of the DM. I'd prefer not to have to break the game off).

[Zanos]

Tell him to stop being a misogynist. It's 2014.

[Jeff the Green]

Could you be more specific about the nature of the misogynistic crap? If its roleplaying things (catcalls, male chauvinism, discrimination, etc.) I'd embrace it and turn my character into a feminist crusader even once the curse was removed. If it's OOC misogyny or your DM using this to change your character without your permission, talk to him OOC.

[atemu1234]

Could you be more specific about the nature of the misogynistic crap? If its roles laying things (catcalls, male chauvinism, discrimination, etc.) I'd embrace it and turn my character into a feminist crusader even once the curse was removed. If it's OOC misogyny or your DM using this to change your character without your permission, talk to him OOC.

It's in-character misogyny. Again, he probably stole it from the above webcomic. But the problem is, remove curse doesn't seem to be... working. I'm kind of stuck as-is, for the moment, and the curse is very plot-armourific.

[Spore]

Ingame: Break the curse and stop this.
Out of game:
- Funny route: Tease him back for not having girls react to that crap.
- Serious route: Confront him.

Seriously, breaking a curse is so easy in D&D. If you're so uncomfortable with the situation why is your character still cursed?


It's in-character misogyny. Again, he probably stole it from the above webcomic. But the problem is, remove curse doesn't seem to be... working. I'm kind of stuck as-is, for the moment, and the curse is very plot-armourific.

Uhm...what? Even then, dropping your character to play another one "because your character has to look for a way to cure his ailment" is a solid roleplaying choice.

[atemu1234]

Ingame: Break the curse and stop this.
Out of game:
- Funny route: Tease him back for not having girls react to that crap.
- Serious route: Confront him.

Seriously, breaking a curse is so easy in D&D. If you're so uncomfortable with the situation why is your character still cursed?

I think you may have gotten something akin to sword-saged, my friend.

Again, the fact remains I like this character, and I like the roleplaying perspective of it, even if I can't break the curse. I just don't like the random mysogynistic crap, like the character is somehow negatively affected by having a vagina.

[SiuiS]

It's in-character misogyny. Again, he probably stole it from the above webcomic. But the problem is, remove curse doesn't seem to be... working. I'm kind of stuck as-is, for the moment, and the curse is very plot-armourific.

Get a hat of disguise self! Become your old self. In fact the cost for a hat designed to work specifically for just you and in limited fashion should be about 25% normal.

[atemu1234]

Get a hat of disguise self! Become your old self. In fact the cost for a hat designed to work specifically for just you and in limited fashion should be about 25% normal.

That may work for a time. Knowing my DM, however, he'd probably nullify it somehow.

[icefractal]

Serious way - Talk to him, privately, and explain that the misogyny stuff is coming off as more creepy than funny, and you'd like it to stop. If he starts making excuses that it's "in character" or "realistic", then stop him right there. The NPCs are fictional characters, they don't make their own decisions. He controls how they act, and if he's making them act in a way that screws up your fun, then he's the one who's screwing up your fun. Ask him not to.

Aggressive way (probably you shouldn't actually do this, but maybe if the above fails ...) - He's having fun making you uncomfortable? Turn the tables and make him uncomfortable. One possibility:
The next time he does something like this, raise your eyebrow and say "Um, [name], this isn't FATAL, keep your weird fetishes in the bedroom." He'll probably say that's ridiculous, which is when you act kind of incredulous and imply that obviously making so much effort to bring misogynistic 'comedy' into the game is because he has some strange attraction to it. But hey, you won't mention it if he doesn't. You need to be able to sell this; it probably won't work if the DM is notably more charismatic or articulate than you.

Ok, I am a bad person. :smallamused: But the behavior described is obnoxious enough that it's annoying me by proxy.

[Donny_Green]

It's in-character misogyny. Again, he probably stole it from the above webcomic. But the problem is, remove curse doesn't seem to be... working. I'm kind of stuck as-is, for the moment, and the curse is very plot-armourific.

Cut your hair, hide your boobs, keep a dagger handy for anyone who thinks to peak... and become a lesbian.

[atemu1234]

Cut your hair, hide your boobs, keep a dagger handy for anyone who thinks to peak... and become a lesbian.

So basically the plot of Mulan, minus the lesbianism? Besides, we took a leaf out of PF, all our characters were pretty much bi to begin with.

[137beth]

I know this has become a forum cliche, but it is still true:
Out of character problems must be solved out of character. If he is your friend, talk to him out of character about how it is making you feel. There is no in character solution until you have solved the issue out of character.

[atemu1234]

I know this has become a forum cliche, but it is still true:
Out of character problems must be solved out of character. If he is your friend, talk to him out of character about how it is making you feel. There is no in character solution until you have solved the issue out of character.

I told him to cut the crap. But he's said he's sticking to the rules he's given (he'll stop making more on the spot) and I suppose that's something. Anyone got anything good I should do with this character?

[Zanos]

I told him to cut the crap. But he's said he's sticking to the rules he's given (he'll stop making more on the spot) and I suppose that's something. Anyone got anything good I should do with this character?
I really hope I'm misinterpreting this and your DM hasn't baked misogynism into his houserules.

[Raven777]

I really hope I'm misinterpreting this and your DM hasn't baked misogynism into his houserules.

He'll know for sure next session. Check if his DMG's not in fact the FATAL book.

[SweaterKittens]

You know your DM the best, so in the end, you'll know what he'll respond to better than we do. That being said, if it were me, I would just point out that playing a woman doesn't normally impose penalties in character creation, so having the penalties thrown at you when they wouldn't normally be is a right spot of horse manure. In settings like DnD and PF, women go through the same training and have the same requirements to be warriors as men do, which is why they're given the same stats. I would just call him out on that.

If he comes back with "Well you're an /average/ girl now, instead of a fight/ranger/guardsman etc.", and ignores the fact that females don't have altered stats by default - tell him that he should offer a way for you to train yourself up to the standard stats via weight-training and combat practice.

Hope you get it solved mate, it sounds like your DM's being a bit of an ass, what with the whole stat-change, and then making the swap unremovable. Like the other's have said, if he really is completely immovable on this, then at the very least you could disguise yourself as a guy ala Mulan, so he wouldn't get the pleasure of heckling you IC.

[atemu1234]

I really hope I'm misinterpreting this and your DM hasn't baked misogynism into his houserules.

Apart from the penalties, the only hard and fast rules were basically a couple things:

Periods
Dealing with men trying to get in my pants (why did I ever let myself have 16 charisma?)


Basically it's pure roleplaying, and I decided to go along with it, provided he doesn't do anything else stupid. For those who read Misfile, it's along similar lines. As far as everyone in my universe is concerned, I was always and am still female. And apparently my party is part of the universe, so they can't really do anything about it.

[Uhtred]

If I recall correctly, the gender-swap curse, as imposed by a Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, actually IS very difficult to break, and requires a Wish or Miracle, followed by percentiles to determine whether it worked, didn't work, or left you totally genderless.
If you feel like playing the odds, save for a Wish.
Otherwise, embrace it. And be thankful that your DM, unlike mine, didn't make you roll a d4 for cup size. And then ridicule you for three sessions when you rolled a 1 and got A-cups.

[atemu1234]

If I recall correctly, the gender-swap curse, as imposed by a Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, actually IS very difficult to break, and requires a Wish or Miracle, followed by percentiles to determine whether it worked, didn't work, or left you totally genderless.
If you feel like playing the odds, save for a Wish.
Otherwise, embrace it. And be thankful that your DM, unlike mine, didn't make you roll a d4 for cup size. And then ridicule you for three sessions when you rolled a 1 and got A-cups.

Again, cosmic retcon. Better than when we rolled for certain... other lengths.

[Raven777]

Again, cosmic retcon. Better than when we rolled for certain... other lengths.

What.
/10char

[slaydemons]

Again, cosmic retcon. Better than when we rolled for certain... other lengths.
Seriously though, check to see if his DMG has the words Fatal approved on it. If so take like ten steps away from him before running

[atemu1234]

What.
/10char

My response as well.

[Zanos]

I guess Raven777 called it.



Nitpick: Charisma is your force of personality, not necessarily physical attractiveness. What this means is that your more likely to get people to be able to listen to you, like telling them to go away and stop bothering you. This is starting to sound like a pretty bad OOC issue.

In general I find that when I DM writes a setting that has mirrors of real world issues and then justifies the whatever-ism by saying it's "part of their setting", they should be slapped.

[Spore]

He really seems like the kind of DM/guy who makes up rules on the spot to truly humiliate others. I have friends like that. They're fine. But I will NEVER again play Monopoly with them.

Stupid streets with 4 hotels on them ....


Charisma is your force of personality, not necessarily physical attractiveness. What this means is that your more likely to get people to be able to listen to you, like telling them to go away and stop bothering you.

Agreed. Hugely attractive girls with terrible Charisma are the source of the "didn't see anything but boobs in that picture" meme.

[atemu1234]

I guess Raven777 called it.



Nitpick: Charisma is your force of personality, not necessarily physical attractiveness. What this means is that your more likely to get people to be able to listen to you, like telling them to go away and stop bothering you. This is starting to sound like a pretty bad OOC issue.

In general I find that when I DM writes a setting that has mirrors of real world issues and then justifies the whatever-ism by saying it's "part of their setting", they should be slapped.

More like 'part of the 'retcon'. It's stupid, but as a usual DM myself, I tend to not interrupt campaigns due to personal discomfort, a 'do unto others' thing, if you will.

[vhfforever]

If he likes playing by the rules, then just point out there's no gender penalties listed in the PhB.

And also, he's being a jerkwad.

[Jeff the Green]

Apart from the penalties, the only hard and fast rules were basically a couple things:

Periods
Dealing with men trying to get in my pants (why did I ever let myself have 16 charisma?)


For the first, refer him to the more recent research on PMS. Unless you have PMDD (which sucks, and should probably be removed with remove disease) most symptoms are mild and/or culturally bound (i.e. do not belong in a D&D game). For the second, you're an adventurer. Draw your sword/cast black tentacles/bind Amon/set your fists on fire. Tell him that you do that every time someone hits on you so you don't have to roleplay it out.

Also point out that this is a freaking fantasy game and that if you're not roleplaying testicular torsion or inguinal hernias you shouldn't have to roleplay female-specific complaints either. And that this sort of casual misogyny and bizarre fascination with the female genitourinary tract is one of the reasons that so many girls and women get turned off of the hobby.

[Winthur]

Introduce booze to your games and turn the game into your personal quest for sanitary napkins, since apparently you're running comedy. Embrace the stereotype you were shoehorned into and turn the gloomy grimdark dungeon crawling into Ranma 1/2 with beholders.

It's like you guys hate fun and can't adapt.


And that this sort of casual misogyny and bizarre fascination with the female genitourinary tract is one of the reasons that so many girls and women get turned off of the hobby.

Nothing in any book says that I'm supposed to make jokes about -4 STR on the gaming table for bonus XP points.
I figure what you're saying is mostly due to healthy differences between genders and most neckbeards would do all in the power of their fedoras to make the girl playing with them feel at home, but what do I know.

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly, I must fulfill my natural instinct to assume the position of devil's advocate:

The stat changes, while sexist, were mechanically advantageous, and the RP stuff he's sending your way could make unforeseen challenges in future adventures, which usually give said adventure an extra edge of interesting. You said yourself the roleplaying is kinda neat, despite the misogynistic undertones.

That said, I would like to reiterate the forum cliche: out of character problems should be solved out of character. Talk to your fellow players; find out where they stand on this, and how they feel about this going on. Remind them that this could easily be their character next game, or next session even. Talk to the DM as a group. Ask him his reasoning; while given the RL year, I doubt he's actually a sexist, I know it's a possibility, but it's also possible he thought this would make the game more fun/challenging. If this isn't the case (according to you and the other players), convince him to step it back a bit, or stop all-together.

If he can't give a good explanation for how this improves the game, and refuses to change, that's when you start playing hardball: I know you said you don't want to leave, but that's really the best option; if you can, convince the other players to join you in a new game. If that's not something you're willing to do, I say return the favor: if he's intent on ruining your fun, turn that around.

Have your character leave once you get tired of sexist bull****, saying they're researching ways to undo their curse. Just make a new one; if he tries to pull this stunt on the new one, warn him against it, saying it'll ruin the game for you. If he doesn't want to listen, this is when you pull out all the stops:

Have your new character get so depressed by his gender-bending that he/she commits suicide. At this point, go out of your way to make the game not fun; play a Chaotic Neutral/Evil Pun-Pun, or something similarly broken/overly optimized. Chaotic Neutral/Evil is key; this is the only time I'll ever say this, but it is critical that you play your alignment in the most obnoxious way possible. Go nuts: destroy your DM's railroad, in the name of pure anarchy; pillage your way from one end of the universe to the other, destroying everything in your path if you must. Don't let up.

And the best part? Whenever he asks why, say you were following his example of sexist roleplaying and thought "how would a stereotypical woman solve this problem?", the answer of course being passive aggressive bull****.

IMPORTANT NOTE

I have no negative opinions of women; when I say this is how a stereotypical woman would deal with this situation, I mean that what I've suggested is the methods employed by one-dimensional, fictional characters used by various people to portray their misogynistic idea of women (not the reality, but their idea). I think women are generally just as capable as men in every way, the same way I think men are generally just as capable as women in every way; there are exceptions to both cases, but the majority of skills, talents, and abilities show the two genders to be equal.

[atemu1234]

Firstly, I must fulfill my natural instinct to assume the position of devil's advocate:

The stat changes, while sexist, were mechanically advantageous, and the RP stuff he's sending your way could make unforeseen challenges in future adventures, which usually give said adventure an extra edge of interesting. You said yourself the roleplaying is kinda neat, despite the misogynistic undertones.

That said, I would like to reiterate the forum cliche: out of character problems should be solved out of character. Talk to your fellow players; find out where they stand on this, and how they feel about this going on. Remind them that this could easily be their character next game, or next session even. Talk to the DM as a group. Ask him his reasoning; while given the RL year, I doubt he's actually a sexist, I know it's a possibility, but it's also possible he thought this would make the game more fun/challenging. If this isn't the case (according to you and the other players), convince him to step it back a bit, or stop all-together.

If he can't give a good explanation for how this improves the game, and refuses to change, that's when you start playing hardball: I know you said you don't want to leave, but that's really the best option; if you can, convince the other players to join you in a new game. If that's not something you're willing to do, I say return the favor: if he's intent on ruining your fun, turn that around.

Have your character leave once you get tired of sexist bull****, saying they're researching ways to undo their curse. Just make a new one; if he tries to pull this stunt on the new one, warn him against it, saying it'll ruin the game for you. If he doesn't want to listen, this is when you pull out all the stops:

Have your new character get so depressed by his gender-bending that he/she commits suicide. At this point, go out of your way to make the game not fun; play a Chaotic Neutral/Evil Pun-Pun, or something similarly broken/overly optimized. Chaotic Neutral/Evil is key; this is the only time I'll ever say this, but it is critical that you play your alignment in the most obnoxious way possible. Go nuts: destroy your DM's railroad, in the name of pure anarchy; pillage your way from one end of the universe to the other, destroying everything in your path if you must. Don't let up.

And the best part? Whenever he asks why, say you were following his example of sexist roleplaying and thought "how would a stereotypical woman solve this problem?", the answer of course being passive aggressive bull****.

IMPORTANT NOTE

I have no negative opinions of women; when I say this is how a stereotypical woman would deal with this situation, I mean that what I've suggested is the methods employed by one-dimensional, fictional characters used by various people to portray their misogynistic idea of women (not the reality, but their idea). I think women are generally just as capable as men in every way, the same way I think men are generally just as capable as women in every way; there are exceptions to both cases, but the majority of skills, talents, and abilities show the two genders to be equal.

I never meant to imply I dislike the character or the roleplaying aspects of the situation. I dislike him changing the rules more and more just for a stereotype though.

[Jeff the Green]

Nothing in any book says that I'm supposed to make jokes about -4 STR on the gaming table for bonus XP points.
I figure what you're saying is mostly due to healthy differences between genders and most neckbeards would do all in the power of their fedoras to make the girl playing with them feel at home, but what do I know.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying. (Or at least, how it's at all relevant to what I said.)

[Winthur]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying. (Or at least, how it's at all relevant to what I said.)

Well, I just think that the general consensus as to why RPGs aren't particularly explored by women is simply that they don't, for the most part, feel inclined towards such a hobby.

Most people don't, in fact - the main opinion of dissent seems to be that RPGs are a freak & geek thing for losers, not really a cabal of misogynists that meet up solely to make sexist jokes. At least, in any more capacity than any other male-dominated pastime, like watching football or whatever.

[SiuiS]

So basically the plot of Mulan, minus the lesbianism? Besides, we took a leaf out of PF, all our characters were pretty much bi to begin with.

Get it anyway. Find a way to learn iron heart surge. Get the Item Master epic destiny. Take ten ranks in disguise and ask what the circumstance bonus is for having 20+ years of perfectly 'imitating' masculine fashion, speech patterns, body language, social cues, and other nonverbal tells of gender.

Worst case scenario, find an alchemist, tell them you're transsexual (because now you are) and you want magical therapy/surgery to present as the correct gender.


I told him to cut the crap. But he's said he's sticking to the rules he's given (he'll stop making more on the spot) and I suppose that's something. Anyone got anything good I should do with this character?

Divination to find a cure or an alternate curse or similar; alternately, take a dagger to the heart and get a limited wish designed to replicate Reincarnate except it reincarnated you as a specific race and sex with features identical but sexual-dimorphically appropriate to your old body.

[Zanos]

Well, I just think that the general consensus as to why RPGs aren't particularly explored by women is simply that they don't, for the most part, feel inclined towards such a hobby.

Most people don't, in fact - the main opinion of dissent seems to be that RPGs are a freak & geek thing for losers, not really a cabal of misogynists that meet up solely to make sexist jokes. At least, in any more capacity than any other male-dominated pastime, like watching football or whatever.
Tabletop gaming being male dominated is only somewhat still true. I know plenty of women who play tabletop games, although I will admit that the women I know who like tabletop gaming generally gravitate towards less rule heavy systems.

And creating a setting where misogynism is part of the rules doesn't seem like a particularly healthy exercise.

[Winthur]

And creating a setting where misogynism is part of the rules doesn't seem like a particularly healthy exercise.

Eh, I really think it's just boys being boys. Especially since it's contained to their inner circle, it shouldn't really be some representative of how the people playing such games behave.
Though, of course, atemu has every right to leave the game or whatever if he has a problem.
I personally wouldn't, as long as the DM doesn't actively try to completely screw me over (and the OP seems to still have fun for the most part)/doesn't venture into magical realm to live out his fetishes.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, I just think that the general consensus as to why RPGs aren't particularly explored by women is simply that they don't, for the most part, feel inclined towards such a hobby.

Most people don't, in fact - the main opinion of dissent seems to be that RPGs are a freak & geek thing for losers, not really a cabal of misogynists that meet up solely to make sexist jokes. At least, in any more capacity than any other male-dominated pastime, like watching football or whatever.

"Inclination" isn't an answer. Something causes that inclination, and based on everything we know about human nature, it probably isn't largely due to biological differences. And yeah, it's not just, or even primarily, misogyny or unintentional sexism that drives women away from the hobby. But it definitely is part of it. I have a number of friends who would have been interested (and a couple that eventually became interested) but for the fact that the people who were supposed to be introducing them to roleplaying were instead oggling them.

(Also, football is so bad a metaphor. Have you seen the stuff that goes on in fandom? It's loaded with toxic masculinity and casual sexism.)

[Winthur]

"Inclination" isn't an answer. Something causes that inclination, and based on everything we know about human nature, it probably isn't largely due to biological differences.
Boys play with soldiers, girls play with dolls. Even in video game design men are usually the coders and women take up writing and art. I don't see why biological differences can't make up the bulk of it.

And yeah, it's not just, or even primarily, misogyny or unintentional sexism that drives women away from the hobby. But it definitely is part of it. I have a number of friends who would have been interested (and a couple that eventually became interested) but for the fact that the people who were supposed to be introducing them to roleplaying were instead oggling them.
People, in general, seem to find common interests a decent way to try and put on moves on one another. Too bad your friends had to meet with such offenses, especially from such an unkempt bunch as your typical roleplayer. Sadly, Patrick Swayze's ghost only taught clay shaping and not powergaming a Batman wizard. :smalltongue:


(Also, football is so bad a metaphor. Have you seen the stuff that goes on in fandom? It's loaded with toxic masculinity and casual sexism.)
So is a typical issue of Cosmopolitan, except in reverse. Nobody is trying, however, to market Cosmopolitan towards men.
And yes, things like that do exist, because... uh... men watch it, and football fans of both genders still somehow exist.
Also, kinda meant association football aka soccer, but it's just about as male-oriented.

[atemu1234]

Eh, I really think it's just boys being boys. Especially since it's contained to their inner circle, it shouldn't really be some representative of how the people playing such games behave.
Though, of course, atemu has every right to leave the game or whatever if he has a problem.
I personally wouldn't, as long as the DM doesn't actively try to completely screw me over (and the OP seems to still have fun for the most part)/doesn't venture into magical realm to live out his fetishes.

To tell the truth, I'd now like help roleplaying a character with 19 years of "driving stick" under her belt (that came out far dirtier than I first thought it).

[Jeff the Green]

Boys play with soldiers, girls play with dolls. Even in video game design men are usually the coders and women take up writing and art. I don't see why biological differences can't make up the bulk of it.

Suffice it to say that there is a mountain of research to say that that's utterly wrong. Early-childhood toy preferences exist because kids are exquisitely sensitive to adults' opinions of what is a suitable toy and what isn't, and they internalize it very early on.

But this is getting deraily and I doubt I could convince you without a lot of time and probably a few experts, so let's drop it.

[Winthur]

Suffice it to say that there is a mountain of research to say that that's utterly wrong. Early-childhood toy preferences exist because kids are exquisitely sensitive to adults' opinions of what is a suitable toy and what isn't, and they internalize it very early on.
It was really more of a metaphor about the extremely large differences between genders that don't need a mountain of research to approve; they're rather evident from everyday experience. And then again, I'm not sure how many parents can't get playing with tanks out of their little tomboy's mind, but the amount seems decent.

Hell, I used to sub for Sailor Jupiter in preschool make-believes. :smallbiggrin:


To tell the truth, I'd now like help roleplaying a character with 19 years of "driving stick" under her belt (that came out far dirtier than I first thought it).
If you enjoyed yourself so far and thought you did well, it's all okay.
I mean, if I were to try accurately roleplaying an 18 Charisma diplomat or 18 Wisdom sage, I'd probably limit my options horribly.
Take the game less seriously; even the DM expects you too, it seems.

[atemu1234]

Suffice it to say that there is a mountain of research to say that that's utterly wrong. Early-childhood toy preferences exist because kids are exquisitely sensitive to adults' opinions of what is a suitable toy and what isn't, and they internalize it very early on.

But this is getting deraily and I doubt I could convince you without a lot of time and probably a few experts, so let's drop it.

I don't mind particularly; I'd like to see citations before you end your topic, though. I don't think the game is male-inclined, though. More I feel that the genders form separate groups, all male and all female groups of players.

[Spore]

I never meant to imply I dislike the character or the roleplaying aspects of the situation. I dislike him changing the rules more and more just for a stereotype though.

You're uncomfortable enough to create a post about this on a forum. And if I can be honest: You would've never mentioned his misogynistic behaviour if it didn't bother you at all. I can understand SOME NPCs to behave like immature idiots. But changing rules every second step seems just immature. Maybe your DM is not able to cope with the situation that one of his PCs suddenly changed gender.

For comparison: My half-elf got reincarnated as an goblin. While not as delicate and more spiritualistic of an situation my DM had his fair share of jokes. Still he didn't start and made up rules for my "new" character. He promised me both a way to change it back if I wished and a little side-quest concerning other goblins and (as a charisma caster without the Cha penalty of normal goblins) the most lovable goblin around.

That's what I would expect from your DM as well. While changing gender in a game is a fun little thing to amuse yourself it kind of gets old after a while.

[atemu1234]

You're uncomfortable enough to create a post about this on a forum. And if I can be honest: You would've never mentioned his misogynistic behaviour if it didn't bother you at all. I can understand SOME NPCs to behave like immature idiots. But changing rules every second step seems just immature. Maybe your DM is not able to cope with the situation that one of his PCs suddenly changed gender.

The situation and "throw-it-in" rulemaking bothered me more to be honest.

[Jeff the Green]

I don't mind particularly; I'd like to see citations before you end your topic, though. I don't think the game is male-inclined, though. More I feel that the genders form separate groups, all male and all female groups of players.

My expertise lies in the natural, rather than social sciences, so I'm not the best person to look for primary literature. Google actually seems to be useful here, both Web and Scholar. Search 'parental influence on gender roles' (no quotes) and you'll come up with a lot of stuff. Just be sure to look for .edu domains in the web stuff and recent articles in Scholar. And remember that there's going to be a lot of squishiness in the data; social science research is highly sensitive to experimental design.

The general consensus seems to be that a person's gender (i.e. perception of whether one is a boy or a girl) is fixed once pregnancy is over, but what behaviors a child associates with boys and girls (i.e. gender roles) depends on what they see adults and other kids doing. One exception seems to be an early preference for mechanical toys over dolls in boys. However, this a) assumes that acculturation can't occur in the first several months after birth, which is suspect and b) ignores the fact that boys are more likely to be on the autistic spectrum, which leads to a decreased desire to look at other people.

[atemu1234]

My expertise lies in the natural, rather than social sciences, so I'm not the best person to look for primary literature. Google actually seems to be useful here, both Web and Scholar. Search 'parental influence on gender roles' (no quotes) and you'll come up with a lot of stuff. Just be sure to look for .edu domains in the web stuff and recent articles in Scholar. And remember that there's going to be a lot of squishiness in the data; social science research is highly sensitive to experimental design.

The general consensus seems to be that a person's gender (i.e. perception of whether one is a boy or a girl) is fixed once pregnancy is over, but what behaviors a child associates with boys and girls (i.e. gender roles) depends on what they see adults and other kids doing. One exception seems to be an early preference for mechanical toys over dolls in boys. However, this a) assumes that acculturation can't occur in the first several months after birth, which is suspect and b) ignores the fact that boys are more likely to be on the autistic spectrum, which leads to a decreased desire to look at other people.

By that logic, however, couldn't the argument be made that D&D falls under a similar situation as to the mechanical toys bit? In your attempt to support your argument you undermined it. You supplied differences rather than removing them.

[Zombulian]

>2014
>people enforcing stat changes on genders in an RPG

Tell your DM to get his head out of his ass.

[Winthur]

>2014
>people enforcing stat changes on genders in an RPG.

Greentexting outside of image boards
http://i.imgur.com/sUPZYAt.jpg

[Grod_The_Giant]

Man, this thread is just not going to go anywhere good, is it?


The situation and "throw-it-in" rulemaking bothered me more to be honest.
As everyone is saying, talk to him. Say "I don't mind roleplaying a girl for a bit, but can we stop focusing on it? And seriously, knock it off with the houserules, that's pretty uncool. Also kind of sexist." We really can't give you any other advice.

[Jeff the Green]

By that logic, however, couldn't the argument be made that D&D falls under a similar situation as to the mechanical toys bit? In your attempt to support your argument you undermined it. You supplied differences rather than removing them.

No. What I was saying is that there is a very small population that creates a statistical difference, but there isn't a categorical one. It would be like if you took two kindergarten classes and compared their average weights, but one of the classes had a kid that had been held back a couple years. Similarly, there is a small number of kids who are primarily boys that have a natural inclination for mechanical toys. It doesn't explain anything about why the rest of boys like Tonka over Barbie.

Edit:
For further example, imagine a hypothetical group of children who had no input from adults or each other with regards to toys. Assuming the current hypothesis is correct, there would be more boys that preferred trucks to dolls. However, if you compared non-autistic boys to non-autistic girls and autistic boys to autistic girls, you'd find there's no difference and the apparent sex difference is due only to the fact that autism and maleness are related.

[atemu1234]

For further example, imagine a hypothetical group of children who had no input from adults or each other with regards to toys. Assuming the current hypothesis is correct, there would be more boys that preferred trucks to dolls. However, if you compared non-autistic boys to non-autistic girls and autistic boys to autistic girls, you'd find there's no difference and the apparent sex difference is due only to the fact that autism and maleness are related.

In theory. You haven't backed this with empirical evidence just with a purely hypothetical one. I could say the boys have separate preferences from girls if only slight ones based on the same evidence. Or that the difference could be caused by anything else that may be statistically different between the two with similar logical leaps and bounds.

[Jeff the Green]

In theory. You haven't backed this with empirical evidence just with a purely hypothetical one. I could say the boys have separate preferences from girls if only slight ones based on the same evidence. Or that the difference could be caused by anything else that may be statistically different between the two with similar logical leaps and bounds.

Like I said, I'm not a social scientist. I'm just going off of consensus (generally a good position when one isn't an expert and doesn't have a particuarly good reason to say consensus is wrong) and using what I know of how statistics work to make a decent guess at how they came to the conclusions they did. It's also why I suggested looking on Google Scholar.

[Zombulian]

Greentexting outside of image boards
http://i.imgur.com/sUPZYAt.jpg

Bad habit. Apologies.
My point stands though.

[atemu1234]

Bad habit. Apologies.
My point stands though.

Your point's good. I like the character and welcome new roleplaying opportunities, however. That's more the issue, as I figured already it was sexist, but I can deal with that versus knowing when to quit.

[SiuiS]

Boys play with soldiers, girls play with dolls. Even in video game design men are usually the coders and women take up writing and art. I don't see why biological differences can't make up the bulk of it.

People, in general, seem to find common interests a decent way to try and put on moves on one another. Too bad your friends had to meet with such offenses, especially from such an unkempt bunch as your typical roleplayer. Sadly, Patrick Swayze's ghost only taught clay shaping and not powergaming a Batman wizard. :smalltongue:

So is a typical issue of Cosmopolitan, except in reverse. Nobody is trying, however, to market Cosmopolitan towards men.
And yes, things like that do exist, because... uh... men watch it, and football fans of both genders still somehow exist.
Also, kinda meant association football aka soccer, but it's just about as male-oriented.

Socialization. Babies pick up information about which parent they are supposed to copy as early as a few months.

The same phenomenon occurs on a different scale when children go to school for the first time; suddenly they are told by other children that vegetables are gross, and internalize it. They no longer like vegetables.

This has been documented, up to and including people telling girls that they shouldn't be interested in math and that girls are bad at math so they shouldn't bother practicing math.

It cannot be proven that girls are bad at math intrinsically, but it can be proven that people who don't study or have interest in a topic are bad at a topic.


By that logic, however, couldn't the argument be made that D&D falls under a similar situation as to the mechanical toys bit? In your attempt to support your argument you undermined it. You supplied differences rather than removing them.

No. D&D is as much make believe and tea party and social cues and social maneuvering (things girls are "supposed" to be good at in western civilization) as it is actual engineering. In fact, more so. By this logic, boys should be the minority.

Don't underestimate cultural pressure. We have people who honestly believe that western medicine will kill you because it drives away the spirits who support and protect your clan, despite reams of reputable evidence that medicine saves people and spirits don't cure HIV or Ebola, because that is how they were raised. It shouldn't be hard to think that maybe people will think girls and boys are Just Different despite data (even cherry picking data) because that's how they were raised. It feeds into the change back cycle. Your parents conform because everyone in their generation made them. They make you conform because that is what they see as Normal, and your life quality will indeed improve when you "do what [gender] is supposed to" because people will stop hassling you at that point. It will be ingrained as "life got better when I started being the Right Way" and ignore that life only sucked because everyone else made it suck for no reason.

It's an instance of performing social behaviors to enforce something because it was enforced on you. There are still tribes of people untouched by our social mores, and they don't have our baggage.

[Jeff the Green]

The same phenomenon occurs on a different scale when children go to school for the first time; suddenly they are told by other children that vegetables are gross, and internalize it. They no longer like vegetables.

This, at least, seems not to be primarily socialization. During critical periods of development we're extremely susceptible to toxins, and vegetables have a lot of toxins in them that the plants produce to discourage animals from eating them. At least as far as I recall, kids' bitter receptors are much more sensitive than adults' which is why we tend to grow to like vegetables more as we mature. (It may also be one of the reasons for morning sickness, since pregnancy is one of those critical periods and fetuses can't exactly control what they're getting.)

[Alent]

Your point's good. I like the character and welcome new roleplaying opportunities, however. That's more the issue, as I figured already it was sexist, but I can deal with that versus knowing when to quit.

If he gets too out of line and it's aimed at just your character, you need to pull back and just ask "Dude, are you hitting on me?"

He may not even be conscious of how what he's doing is coming across.

[Winthur]

If he gets too out of line and it's aimed at just your character, you need to pull back and just ask "Dude, are you hitting on me?"

He may not even be conscious of how what he's doing is coming across.

Do look up if the monsters you've been encountering lately don't have suspiciously looking tentacles.

[Spore]

If he gets too out of line and it's aimed at just your character, you need to pull back and just ask "Dude, are you hitting on me?"

He may not even be conscious of how what he's doing is coming across.

Please tell me that's a thing! Proposal through aggressively sexualized roleplaying.

What color is sexually confused hope? Pink? Golden Rod?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Just go form your own kingdom, with knights, and round tables, and blackjack.

...Y'know what? Forget the blackjack.

Joking aside, I've tried twice to play a female character in DnD. The attempts were split apart by about eight years. The first time, I got sexually pursued and assaulted by another woman.

The second time, well... It was a bunch of guys that beat me unconscious.

When the other player and I confronted the DM (after the other player was beaten unconscious by a guy the DM blatantly said had 'infinite HP') about it, he quickly back-pedaled on the issue, claiming he'd never heavily implied in character what the men had planned for my character.

Then again, the DM has very weird and disturbing issues when it comes to women, I've sometimes discovered. You never want to have to ask another person 'you did wash the table after, right?' without joking in the slightest. Stopped that game of Magic cold.

...I still think he was lying when he said he'd cleaned it.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

It was really more of a metaphor about the extremely large differences between genders that don't need a mountain of research to approve; they're rather evident from everyday experience.

Anecdotes are not data. Nor are they particularly useful for looking into why things seem to be the way they are. Furthermore:


Eh, I really think it's just boys being boys.

This is no justification for misogynistic behavior, nor can it excuse such behavior. It drives people away from gaming, serves no purpose but to hurt people for no good reason, and perpetuates a great deal of harmful behaviors generally.

To the OP, as long as you're having fun, playing a character who has been gender-bent can be a lot of fun. Having misogynistic crap thrown at you because of it is not so fun (nor is it particularly useful, unless the expressed purpose of the game is to explore such real-life issues through the medium of roleplaying), and you would be perfectly justified in telling your DM to knock it off. But from the sound of it, you have, so hopefully it can be a learning experience and won't happen again. And if IC issues persist (and an IC solution is called for), then leading a Feminist Revolution could make for an awesome game (you could play a version of La Maupin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_d'Aubigny), which would be a lot of fun).

Finally, I'd like to throw whatever support I can behind everything Jeff the Green has said. He speaks the truth.

[Spore]

Joking aside, I've tried twice to play a female character in DnD. The attempts were split apart by about eight years. The first time, I got sexually pursued and assaulted by another woman.

The second time, well... It was a bunch of guys that beat me unconscious.

Seriously? While I have two characters (Tiefling and Halforc) that would throw some chauvinistic tantrums I also play a Human woman and an Half-Elf. Not even my evil characters would consider that brutal and senseless approach.

Why yes I have two female characters I plan on DMing and I also plan on having their first encounter be with a drunk rapist. But if they don't split up the party on the dark alleys in the worst part of town of a corrupt society they will be fine to get rid of a drunkard. Even if he is as strong as both female characters combined. Besides they have enough ways to deal with drunkards besides actually fighting and killing them.

If I wanted a porno I would watch one and not try to gangrape another character.

[Winthur]

Anecdotes are not data. Nor are they particularly useful for looking into why things seem to be the way they are.
You didn't provide me with evidence to the contrary, and no evidence I know was capable of reaching a consensus to either side of the debate, so I'll go with gut feeling.



This is no justification for misogynistic behavior, nor can it excuse such behavior. It drives people away from gaming, serves no purpose but to hurt people for no good reason, and perpetuates a great deal of harmful behaviors generally.
I just can't see a problem with a bunch of males (I'm assuming OP's group is fully male) indulging in what sounds like rather harmless fun-poking. Not particularly top shelf, but it seems everyone's in on the joke and has fun - apparently OP doesn't. Or does, given that he's rolling with the punches.
Sure, the DM is encroaching into a kind of disturbing territory, and I certainly wouldn't be able to take the plot seriously at that point. He's probably a pretty crappy DM, all things considered.
Had the DM actually got someone leaving his game or actually turned somebody off, I'd probably be displeased myself, but it seems like the group is together and things are worked out, and OP has actually, inadvertently, found a new interesting character to roleplay despite the ordeal.
I had indulged in all sorts of -ist humour myself depending on company and I don't think anyone really meant anything they said. Within social groups rules on certain stuff are relaxed, such as offensive humour.
I just don't see anybody here hurt or driven away.

[Hyena]

I am very, very surprised by moderate reaction of forum feminists.

My advise is directly opposite - you need to turn and run like hell. And most importantly, never look back. Your DM is clearly not mature enough for roleplaying games (or any social interaction in general), so why even bother reasoning? It's simply not going to work.
Also, I remind you that DnD is a form of entertainment, and entertainment is not supposed to make you feel uncomfortable.

[Vizzerdrix]

Should have gotten a Con boost. Women have a higher pain threshold then men.

[icefractal]

Why yes I have two female characters I plan on DMing and I also plan on having their first encounter be with a drunk rapist. But if they don't split up the party on the dark alleys in the worst part of town of a corrupt society they will be fine to get rid of a drunkard. Even if he is as strong as both female characters combined. Besides they have enough ways to deal with drunkards besides actually fighting and killing them.Really? ಠ_ಠ

Even if this was a sure-win, it's a plot device that has seen better days. And if the dice don't behave, what then? Just - no.

[Jeff the Green]

To the OP, as long as you're having fun, playing a character whose been gender-bent can be a lot of fun. Having misogynistic crap thrown at you because of it is not so fun (nor is it particularly useful, unless the expressed purpose of the game is to explore such real-life issues through the medium of roleplaying), and you would be perfectly justified in telling your DM to knock it off.

Seconding this, particularly the first sentence. It's one of the reasons I like changelings so much; there's genderbending and identity issues and stereotyping all rolled into the race. As long as the DM and players are all mature, it can be a blast. But it does require some maturity to handle well.


Finally, I'd like to throw whatever support I can behind everything Jeff the Green has said. He speaks the truth.

If it wouldn't be so egotistical of me, I'd ask to sig this. Thanks. :smallredface:

[Vaz]

Cut your hair, hide your boobs, keep a dagger handy for anyone who thinks to peak... and become a lesbian.

Sounds like my ex-girlfriend that.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Otherwise, embrace it. And be thankful that your DM, unlike mine, didn't make you roll a d4 for cup size. And then ridicule you for three sessions when you rolled a 1 and got A-cups.

I'd totally have made you roll a d8.

Also made it easier to remove since genderbending is the sort of thing that's amusing for one session, if that.

[Socksy]

I'd totally have made you roll a d8.

Also made it easier to remove since genderbending is the sort of thing that's amusing for one session, if that.

Your avatar is so cute!

I'd have gone for a D6, no adventurer needs to lug around bigger than an E.

[Uhtred]

I'd have gone for a D6, no adventurer needs to lug around bigger than an E.

Yeah, once you exceed the first four letters of the alphabet, you're talking expensive custom armor and understandable encumbrance penalties. My sister hauls around L-cups and has the real-life equivalent of the "Fatigued" condition ALL the time.

[Svata]

Again, cosmic retcon. Better than when we rolled for certain... other lengths.

Did he make you roll anal circumference, and were the first ogres you ran into camp?

[Zanos]

(Also, football is so bad a metaphor. Have you seen the stuff that goes on in fandom? It's loaded with toxic masculinity and casual sexism.)
Disclaimer: I don't really like football. I watch it to bond with my father.

Since OP doesn't seem to mind this line of discussion, this doesn't seem correct to me. I agree with some of your other points but I don't think that men having an event they enjoy where women aren't made to feel comfortable is inherently misogynistic. Every event doesn't have to cater to ever type of person, and that includes societal imposed gender roles. Yeah football is made for, played by, and marketed towards men. There's nothing wrong with that.

Some fans are obviously problematic *******s but that is a personality trait that extends beyond the game, and I highly doubt those individuals are personable in other situations.

[A Tad Insane]

Tell your dm that, unlike Ash, you didn't make this character just so you could go through the awkward story of a man mentally stuck in a woman's body, and, like Ash, you really don't like it.

[Segev]

Regarding the "social science" stuff, there's really no way we, on this board, are going to convince anybody of our respective positions. We can quote "studies" all we want, but in this field you can find studies that show whatever you want them to show, because experimental design cannot truly be unbiased without going into ludicrously unethical behaviors involving emotionally abusing and abandoning children.

I will say that it is not likely a coincidence that "cultural" expectations of how men and women will behave, while varied, have certain elements in common, to the point where claiming there's no actual basis for the difference except for culture feels like presuming the conclusion. Particularly given that evidence contrary to the "no difference except expectations" hypothesis is dismisssed as "contaminated experiment." (I won't claim that there are good, solid experiments that prove the contrary, either, which can't be called "contaminated," nor that those who support the opposite hypothesis aren't equally quick to dismiss evidence contrary to their view.) The only laboratory we have with a large enough sample size is all of human history. I think that suggests that boys and girls are, in general, physically, emotionally, and mentally different.

I know my baby brother certainly is a strong anecdotal example: when he was very small, he played with his older sister's Barbie dolls. Mom had a rule against toy guns, so he didn't have those to play with. The WAY my baby brother played with those dolls got that rule lifted: he stripped them naked, bent them over at the waist, and poised the arms as if they were a sort of pull-trigger on top of the "gun," treating the head of the doll as the barrel and the legs as the handle.

But that's anecdotal. I'm sure you could find a similar anecdote proving there exist girls who'd rather play with guns than dolls, too.

Regarding the OP's issue: You're not enjoying this "twist." It isn't somehow balancing anything that you are enjoying but could be overpowered. Talk to the DM about it in terms of you having fun in the game. Not in terms of whether it's "politically correct" or "acceptable," but simply in terms of what you are or are not enjoying and how it is enhancing or detracting from your desire to show up each session.

[Trasilor]

Kindly remind your DM that D&D is a game. If you are not having fun, why should you bother playing? In your OP you said the DM is a friend - tell them you are not having fun and you want it to change.


Otherwise pull a Landfill 2 from Beerfest.

In the movie Beerfest, the character Landfill died only to be replaced by his previously unknown twin brother. The dead character had already told his replacement twin all about his friends, so the replacement felt like he knew them. And in honor of his dead brother, asked that he be called Landfill as well.

[Zale]

I personally would talk to the DM about the misogynistic bullcrap.

If that fails to work, you should probably leave, since there's really no hope then. But if you do stay, you could probably end the annoying unwanted flirting with something along the lines of this:

A woman walks into a bar, steps on a table and starts to talk.

"Hi. I'm an adventurer, which means I am the closest you'll ever see to a socially approved mass murderer. I have waded through seas of blood and trod on the organs of my enemies. I can tell, by sound, the difference between a blade hitting flesh and scraping bone. I have been beaten, stabbed, set on fire and turned to stone. I am here to have a nice quiet drink to unwind, so when I say that I swear to any god you care to name that I will make the first man who bothers me a eunuch, I am not making a joke. I am deadly. ****ing. Serious."

Then roll for intimidate with what I think would be a quite substantial circumstance bonus. If that fails, just make real your promise until everyone's neutered, you get left alone, or the pile of unconscious bodies starts getting in the barmaid/barboy's way.

[atemu1234]

I personally would talk to the DM about the misogynistic bullcrap.

If that fails to work, you should probably leave, since there's really no hope then. But if you do stay, you could probably end the annoying unwanted flirting with something along the lines of this:

A woman walks into a bar, steps on a table and starts to talk.

"Hi. I'm an adventurer, which means I am the closest you'll ever see to a socially approved mass murderer. I have waded through seas of blood and trod on the organs of my enemies. I can tell, by sound, the difference between a blade hitting flesh and scraping bone. I have been beaten, stabbed, set on fire and turned to stone. I am here to have a nice quiet drink to unwind, so when I say that I swear to any god you care to name that I will make the first man who bothers me a eunuch, I am not making a joke. I am deadly. ****ing. Serious."

Then roll for intimidate with what I think would be a quite substantial circumstance bonus. If that fails, just make real your promise until everyone's neutered, you get left alone, or the pile of unconscious bodies starts getting in the barmaid/barboy's way.

I love this plan with complete sincerity.

[Jeff the Green]

Disclaimer: I don't really like football. I watch it to bond with my father.

Since OP doesn't seem to mind this line of discussion, this doesn't seem correct to me. I agree with some of your other points but I don't think that men having an event they enjoy where women aren't made to feel comfortable is inherently misogynistic. Every event doesn't have to cater to ever type of person, and that includes societal imposed gender roles. Yeah football is made for, played by, and marketed towards men. There's nothing wrong with that.

Some fans are obviously problematic *******s but that is a personality trait that extends beyond the game, and I highly doubt those individuals are personable in other situations.

It's not the homosociality that makes it misogynistic. The easiest example that comes to mind are Super Bowl commercials (though those are sort of equal-opportunity sexist). And with a few exceptions fans aren't consciously or overtly sexist. It's just the culture that surrounds it, the assumption that women are there as cooks *** maids, the use of skimpily-dressed cheerleaders as bait (and then paying them a pittance), the idea of a "man cave", and myriad other little things like that.

[atemu1234]

It's not the homosociality that makes it misogynistic. The easiest example that comes to mind are Super Bowl commercials (though those are sort of equal-opportunity sexist). And with a few exceptions fans aren't consciously or overtly sexist. It's just the culture that surrounds it, the assumption that women are there as cooks *** maids, the use of skimpily-dressed cheerleaders as bait (and then paying them a pittance), the idea of a "man cave", and myriad other little things like that.

Ok, now this subtopic is making me a little unhappy. Yes, we get it, we're socialized towards sexism, but under your own admission, you're not an expert, I'm trying to deal with homebrewed in-game consequences, so maybe we should shift back to what we were on this thread for in the first place?

[Jeff the Green]

Ok, now this subtopic is making me a little unhappy. Yes, we get it, we're socialized towards sexism, but under your own admission, you're not an expert, I'm trying to deal with homebrewed in-game consequences, so maybe we should shift back to what we were on this thread for in the first place?

Fine with me; I'm not lucid enough to argue properly right now any way. I was only continuing at your bidding.

[infomatic]

Ok, now this subtopic is making me a little unhappy...maybe we should shift back to what we were on this thread for in the first place?

Why? You've already started another thread asking the same question, and did so nearly 12 hours ago.

[Millennium]

It's not the homosociality that makes it misogynistic. The easiest example that comes to mind are Super Bowl commercials (though those are sort of equal-opportunity sexist). And with a few exceptions fans aren't consciously or overtly sexist. It's just the culture that surrounds it, the assumption that women are there as cooks *** maids, the use of skimpily-dressed cheerleaders as bait (and then paying them a pittance), the idea of a "man cave", and myriad other little things like that.
This is perhaps a bit nitpicky, but I don't understand your comment about the "man cave" in particular. If homosociality doesn't make things misogynistic, then what makes the "man cave" concept misogynistic? I'd always thought that (at least according to theory) homosociality was one of the biggest factors in misogyny, and that this was a very large part of the reason -perhaps the only one- that the "man cave" concept might be considered misogynist. You seem to present a very different model from the one I am familiar with, and I do not understand what else about the concept would make it problematic.

[Segev]

...what makes the "man cave" concept misogynistic?

Because it pertains to men, of course. Men are all inherently sexist and misogynistic.

Now that we've boiled that discussion down to its core, let's get back to the OP's concerns.

[atemu1234]

Why? You've already started another thread asking the same question, and did so nearly 12 hours ago.

The reason I split this into two threads is one for the roleplaying applications (hopefully with less complaints of misogyny) and one for how to react out-of-game to it without making too big a stink over it. If I wanted a thread on the social dynamics of sexism, I would have post this in the science category, not the 3.5 category.

[Zanos]

OP hath spoken. I shall slither back into my cave with the nice widescreen TV, and be at peace.

[neonchameleon]

I am very, very surprised by moderate reaction of forum feminists.

My advise is directly opposite - you need to turn and run like hell. And most importantly, never look back. Your DM is clearly not mature enough for roleplaying games (or any social interaction in general), so why even bother reasoning? It's simply not going to work.
Also, I remind you that DnD is a form of entertainment, and entertainment is not supposed to make you feel uncomfortable.

Seconded. Few hobbies have as much chance to show how downright creepy people are than RPGs. And if you don't like what's going on and creeps you out (and it is fundamentally creepy), this is an out of game problem and no gaming is better than bad gaming.

At the very least there is no polite way to say "Dude, you're being a creepy jerk and seemingly getting off on abusing the DM's almost unlimited power. Stop it" So you need to straight out say it.

[Libertad]

My DM for a few weeks now decided to change the game up, and my PC (Human Fighter 2 / Ranger 8) was cursed to turn into a female. This imposed no real stat penalties RAW, but my DM (being kind of a jerk on this one, not going to sugar coat it) gave him/her -2 Strength +2 Dexterity. Since I'm an archer (I know the jokes. Don't make them) it was kind of a boon, but then he started throwing in a bunch of kind of sexist nonsense out of the blue. (I think he stole them from the webcomic Misfile, but those that read it should get the idea) So... what should I do? I mean, I still enjoy the character (and roleplaying it has been... interesting) but I'd like to stop having bonuses and penalties thrown at me for what equates to misogynistic rubbish. (Also, I'm a friend of the DM. I'd prefer not to have to break the game off).

Link him to my article. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?309646-Sexism-in-Table-Top-Gaming-My-Thoughts-On-It-and-What-We-Can-Do-About-It)



Again, cosmic retcon. Better than when we rolled for certain... other lengths.

Hazarding a guess, but if he's not joking, and in light of having every male NPC hit on you, then he probably has difficulty separating his personal fetishes from group gaming. If he must do this, point him in the direction of an erotic role-playing forum which has D&D gamers, and let him work it out of his system with fellow players who are into that. And make it clear that this is the only acceptable way to do things: get like-minded gamers ahead of time who are expecting this content in a game.

Or I could be wrong and he gets a kick out of being creepy. In which case you should either leave the group or tell him to stop with the BS.

[Seeker1728]

Not sure if the OP is still following this thread and/or dealing with the problem or not, and/or still interested in advice.

IMHO, based upon what you wrote your friend has got other issues. Human behavior is a complex beast to understand, let alone tame and sorry to those who buy into the politically correct thinking but the genders are different and do think differently in part because of their gender. While one can debate societal/cultural reasons for that (and there is some merit to such claims) biology is what it is, and hormones do what they do, and debating this with your friend is a waste of time. I can guarantee you that if you had a couple of girls sitting at your table (playing or not) you'd get a earful of how you're both wrong while being pretty disgusted with your GM's behavior.

People tend to over complicate things, simplifying your problem boils down to two things, the first is your friend is fixated on something that is bugging you enough to publicly ask for advice. Ask yourself is how much does this guy's friendship matter to you? Then, what is it you really want to change? Don't bother trying to "educate" him or getting him to see where he's gone astray because what it boils down to is he has other issues at work here and it will change only if he sees it as something he should do. The simple solution is to remove the vehicle that lets him do this, the more complex one is to get him some therapy :smalltongue:

Assuming his friendship matters, talk to him alone. Don't use peer pressure and don't retaliate in game by acting out because doing either attacks his ego and the ego is extremely adept at defending itself, often to the point of absurdity (ever see someone defend their support for a political candidate regardless of proof of how corrupt or questionable their history is? That's the ego forcing blindness/stupidity on its owner). When you talk to him 1:1 do it someplace quiet and without interruptions and do the following:

1) ask him if he considers you a good friend (I'm assuming if his friendship means something to you then your's mean something to him) This is manipulation to get a yes. I could go into all the psychology of why that's necessary but it'd take tons of text and time, but the short version is by getting a yes, you engage the ego less in defending its position and interest it more in defending its relationship with you.

2) Ask him if he likes having you in his games. He'll likely say yes but he's now on guard, he knows you're going to criticize him about something. Remember the ego is there to defend itself right or wrong, its been softened up a little by your first question but its a 'soft guard' now. You soften this up a little more by saying you enjoy being in his games and in general like how he does things, however you don't like this thing going on with your character. You don't need to go into a long dissertation on it, try to sum up your feelings in a couple of sentences. Ask him to either let you reverse the curse so you don't have to ditch the character, back off on the way he's hammering you, or roll up a new character. My prediction is he'll be more inclined to let the curse get reversed, that ego is a slippery devil, it will choose what threatens it the least. The wiser option is to let you go back to being a guy, and ideally this doesn't come up again. If he continues to hammer you with silly rules, now you know its not just girls that's his problem, its you.

Now if his friendship isn't that important to you, let'em know you don't like how he's handling rules aimed your way and he has the choice of either backing the hell off, let you reverse the curse asap without a bunch of BS or you're walking. You don't have to be in angry mode, in fact its best done utterly calm. You can do it at the table infront of everyone else if you want them to know what your problem is and that you're done with it. Then if he's being stubborn and says no to either, walk. What's the difference? You basically don't care about his feelings and your group knows first hand what your reasons for leaving were, find a new GM/Group and move on.

Finally, let me stress something here, regardless if you value his friendship or not, he's poking you and knows its bugging you, he's enjoying the rise it gets out of you for whatever reason he has (subconsciously or otherwise). Your responsibility isn't to "fix him" but it is your responsibility to let him know you're done with him entertaining himself at your expense. If you let it go on you got no one to blame but yourself for sitting there and taking it. And if he finds new ways to poke you then do yourself a favor and walk, life is short and full of wonder, no need to clutter up your days with people who won't respect your feelings. While its true that people makes mistakes, when they repeat their mistakes its because they chose to, not because the universe is picking on them and giving them no options.

[Trasilor]

Not sure if the OP is still following this thread and/or dealing with the problem or not, and/or still interested in advice.

[snipped]



This is good advice. Honest, non-aggressive/passive-aggressive and concise.

[137beth]

Link him to my article. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?309646-Sexism-in-Table-Top-Gaming-My-Thoughts-On-It-and-What-We-Can-Do-About-It)


Thanks for linking to that article, I hadn't seen it before and it was a good read:smallsmile:

[Arbane]

Boys play with soldiers, girls play with dolls. Even in video game design men are usually the coders and women take up writing and art. I don't see why biological differences can't make up the bulk of it.


Um, because the video-game industry at this point is VERY much an "Old Boys' Club"? Seriously. It's possibly worse than it used to be, back when Roberta Williams was a big name in game development.


Nobody is trying, however, to market Cosmopolitan towards men.

It's called "Maxim".


Please tell me that's a thing! Proposal through aggressively sexualized roleplaying.

I've heard plenty of horror stories from female players who had the GM hitting on them by proxy....

As I complained in another thread, there are a LOT of female players' horror stories that end with "and I didn't play again for ten years". So many that it leaves me gloomily wondering how many stories we're not hearing ended with "and I never played RPGs again."


Seconded. Few hobbies have as much chance to show how downright creepy people are than RPGs. And if you don't like what's going on and creeps you out (and it is fundamentally creepy), this is an out of game problem and no gaming is better than bad gaming.

This is the best advice.

The second best is Zale's. :smallbiggrin:

[Raven777]

"Hi. I'm an adventurer, which means I am the closest you'll ever see to a socially approved mass murderer."

Can I sig this?

[atemu1234]

Link him to my article. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?309646-Sexism-in-Table-Top-Gaming-My-Thoughts-On-It-and-What-We-Can-Do-About-It)




Hazarding a guess, but if he's not joking, and in light of having every male NPC hit on you, then he probably has difficulty separating his personal fetishes from group gaming. If he must do this, point him in the direction of an erotic role-playing forum which has D&D gamers, and let him work it out of his system with fellow players who are into that. And make it clear that this is the only acceptable way to do things: get like-minded gamers ahead of time who are expecting this content in a game.

Or I could be wrong and he gets a kick out of being creepy. In which case you should either leave the group or tell him to stop with the BS.

I've bookmarked that thread. Thanks. It should really help with the situation, as well as him agreeing to stop having EVERY SINGLE GODDAMNED BARD HITTING ON ME. One or two can be expected (he plans on turning this into a story arc) but come on.

[atemu1234]

A woman walks into a bar, steps on a table and starts to talk.

"Hi. I'm an adventurer, which means I am the closest you'll ever see to a socially approved mass murderer. I have waded through seas of blood and trod on the organs of my enemies. I can tell, by sound, the difference between a blade hitting flesh and scraping bone. I have been beaten, stabbed, set on fire and turned to stone. I am here to have a nice quiet drink to unwind, so when I say that I swear to any god you care to name that I will make the first man who bothers me a eunuch, I am not making a joke. I am deadly. ****ing. Serious."

Mind if I sig this?

[Zale]

Mind if I sig this?

Can I sig this?


Go right ahead. :smallsmile:

[Icewraith]

This is still D&D after all. In-game violence solves most problems.

And sometimes, you get XP and treasure.

[atemu1234]

As I complained in another thread, there are a LOT of female players' horror stories that end with "and I didn't play again for ten years". So many that it leaves me gloomily wondering how many stories we're not hearing ended with "and I never played RPGs again."

I agree: I, as a DM, have personally gone out of my way to avoid making PCs (male and female) uncomfortable. The closest I ever got to in-game rape was off-screen (in response to the Cthulhu examples prior), female on male, and was portrayed as literally the darkest moment in the campaign. I try to handle serious content seriously. When players don't, I'm more offended than most.