Druids without spells - Tier me

[JusticeZero]

So I was pondering, and thought I might toss this out.. I'm using PF here, but I guess it applies to 3.x too.
How would one rate the Druid class with spellcasting removed entirely without compensation? It would leave some dead levels, so something should probably be added, but balancewise, how desirable would you say that the class would be with no spellcasting before any other adjustment?

[eggynack]

I dunno about PF, but in 3.5 it seems like a clear cut tier 3. In the first four levels you're a riding dog/fleshraker with a druid friend that shoots sling bullets, and then after that you get wild shape, and you do wild shape stuff. I'm not even sure that a 1-4th level spell-less druid is worse than a wild shape ranger in the same level range, because of the companion, and they're listed as tier three, so it adds up well.

[DeAnno]

Isn't Wild Shape vastly reduced in PF? If so they might drop all the way to 4.

[Undertucker]

I've also pondered this myself, and it seems like a fair enough balance. I'm curious what the thoughts are on the opposite as well though...

Where would a druid without Wild Shape or Animal Companion sit, if all other class features remained as is?

[Taveena]

When Wildshaping in PF, you no longer gain stats. However, you'll still gain most of the extraordinary abilities, so you have a fair bit of versatility. Maybe a low t3?

[eggynack]

I've also pondered this myself, and it seems like a fair enough balance. I'm curious what the thoughts are on the opposite as well though...

Where would a druid without Wild Shape or Animal Companion sit, if all other class features remained as is?
Tier one. They have full casting off of a great list. That's practically tier one by definition.

[Eldaran]

Well, Pathfinder Wildshape is considered much worse since it doesn't replace your stats, it just gives stat bonuses, natural attacks, and some other abilities. Still, if you're focusing on melee and dumping all your mental stats (since you have no spells) you can still tear it up alongside your animal companion. So still maybe tier 3, but on the low side?

[Undertucker]

Tier one. They have full casting off of a great list. That's practically tier one by definition.

This was my assumption, good to have it confirmed. -tips hat-

[sideswipe]

in 3.5 a druid without casting is just worse then a ranger wildshape varient. and a ranger is very low tier. spells give druids power. not features.
features just accent a druids power.

so a wildshape ranger would get a higher bab and a few other benefits. whereas as i understand it the druid would be med bab and a few class features that don't do a lot. and you cant even wear much decent armour as a druid. so i would think that you would be very slightly worse then a wildshape ranger. so high tier 4 at best.

[WhamBamSam]

in 3.5 a druid without casting is just worse then a ranger wildshape varient. and a ranger is very low tier. spells give druids power. not features.
features just accent a druids power.

so a wildshape ranger would get a higher bab and a few other benefits. whereas as i understand it the druid would be med bab and a few class features that don't do a lot. and you cant even wear much decent armour as a druid. so i would think that you would be very slightly worse then a wildshape ranger. so high tier 4 at best.The Wildshape Ranger variant is a solid T3, and it has size restrictions on its Wildshaping. Getting larger sized, higher Str forms should make up the BAB difference easily. The Druid also has a much better Animal Companion.

Ranger casting, skill points, and favored enemy are things though, so the no-spells druid might still come up slightly short. Still, it's easily T3.

[137beth]

I'm going to join the chorus of people saying tier three. Wildshape on its own is versatile enough to get abilities comparable to the ToB classes, and the animal companion helps at levels 1-4.

[Eldan]

I'd say tier 4, though a strong one. I don't see how it's versatile enough for T3, really. Okay, maybe just purely from utility wildshaping for scouting and mobility, but for that, the number of forms is really limited.

[JusticeZero]

Yeah, that's kind've what I figured. It leaves some empty levels, but that looks like it can be replaced by slotting in the Ranger Tricks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/skirmisher) feature, which maps perfectly to the missing levels. Might open up the weapons to include other woodsy stuff too and call it good.

[Inevitability]

Tier 3. I mean, you're a druid, you have special abilities that are more powerful than an entire class! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)

[Eldan]

Except power doesn't make you tier 3. It makes you tier 4, maybe 2.

[Svata]

A solid 3.

[Alent]

Tier 5, if only because of flight. Pathfinder's wildshape has very little going for it after all the rebalancing.

A druid with nothing but wildshape and the animal companion really isn't that different from a Dvati warrior, is it?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tier 5, if only because of flight. Pathfinder's wildshape has very little going for it after all the rebalancing.
I dunno, what can we get?

Assorted boosts to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution
Climb speed
Fly speed
Scent
Grab
Pounce
Trip
Burrow speed
Blindsense
Constrict
Ferocity
Poison
Rake
Trample
Web
Earthglide
Fire resistance
Water breathing
Energy resistance
Damage Reduction
Regeneration

Seems like a pretty solid ability set to me. Might not make T3, but it's certainly better than what a fighter can do.

[eggynack]

Except power doesn't make you tier 3. It makes you tier 4, maybe 2.
Except that wild shape's primary utility is its versatility. It's an ability that grants just about every movement mode and combat style in the game, in some of the better forms out there, along with AC that can run pretty high. And then you take a feat, like dragon or exalted wild shape (aberration is worse without magic), and things become awesome.

[Flickerdart]

Consider that a druid can rotate animal companions in only 24 hours, which greatly adds to their versatility. Need a flying AC? What about a swimming one? A burrower? Something that's really big and can carry stuff or knock people over? Something that's small and sneaky? In 24 hours, the druid has an animal for the job, which comes pre-trained with at least one bonus trick so it's ready to do what you need out of the box.

And then you take Frozen Wild Shape and turn into a cryohydra and wreck infinity faces.

[eggynack]

And then you take Frozen Wild Shape and turn into a cryohydra and wreck infinity faces.
I suppose that would be better on a magic-less druid, as something like dire tortoise does significantly less for them. Still can't say I'm the biggest fan though, as it's just so high level. I think I'd still prefer something like exalted wild shape, because it covers some of the gap left by enhance wild shape, and because blink dog is still a pretty good form, or dragon wild shape, because gaining access to a plethora of random magical abilities is even better when you don't just have those abilities to start with.

[Flickerdart]

Oh sure, hydra isn't the best form. But it's probably one of the most satisfying.

[eggynack]

Oh sure, hydra isn't the best form. But it's probably one of the most satisfying.
I suppose that would make a lot more sense of how often it gets recommended. As is, it's probably something like the second worst form adding feat, above vermin wild shape, and it's tossed around far out of proportion with that ranking.

[Firechanter]

I'll also join the crowd and agree that, in 3.5, a Wildshaping Pet-Master without spells is definitely Tier 3. I don't know enough about that stuff in PF to make an informed statement regarding that, but it's pretty certainly no worse than Tier 4.

FWIW, this is pretty much what I'm gonna do in 3.5, when it's my turn to DM again:
* "Druid" becomes the Simple Druid from UA, who retains spellcasting, but loses Wildshape and associated benefits, also it will get either no pet or just a half-leveled one.
* introduce "Shifter" as a new class, with Wildshape but no spells (not sure about pet);
* Ranger doesn't get Wildshape, but gains additional spell slots (+2 per level), spontaneous casting and a _full_ leveled Pet (and D10 HD).

I have already playtested the pimped Ranger and it worked really well.

[Psyren]

The Wildshape Ranger variant is a solid T3, and it has size restrictions on its Wildshaping. Getting larger sized, higher Str forms should make up the BAB difference easily. The Druid also has a much better Animal Companion.

Ranger casting, skill points, and favored enemy are things though, so the no-spells druid might still come up slightly short. Still, it's easily T3.

Throwing my hat in with this. In PF they would need more physical stats, but since they wouldn't need Wis for spellcasting anymore anyway that would be pretty easy to pull off.

Also, keep in mind that PF Druids get Wildshape a level early, and get access to Huge and Tiny forms much earlier than the 3.5 version.

[Kennisiou]

Druid with no spells is low T3 high T4. Wildshape ranger is high t3, even without the ACFs that give it better spellcasting. They have fewer forms but more spells, skills, and class features than what you describe. Wild monk is mid to high t3 and is basically what you described but with more class features and an arguably superior class skill list.

[eggynack]

Druid with no spells is low T3 high T4. Wildshape ranger is high t3, even without the ACFs that give it better spellcasting. They have fewer forms but more spells, skills, and class features than what you describe. Wild monk is mid to high t3 and is basically what you described but with more class features and an arguably superior class skill list.
The spells and skills are admittedly a factor of some kind, but when forms are your bread and butter, having more of those seems like the path to greater effectiveness. It's also relevant that the animal companion is a thing. Sure, mystic ranger is probably better, but I don't think that's relevant to the tiering of the wild shape ranger. Overall, I completely disagree with the claim that the spell-less druid should be tiered lower.

[Flashy]

Random tangentially related question. Do all of a Druid's feats still apply in wild shape? Could you be a bear with cleave, for example?

[eggynack]

Random tangentially related question. Do all of a Druid's feats still apply in wild shape? Could you be a bear with cleave, for example?
Yes. You explicitly retain the feats of your base form, per the alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) special ability.

[Erik Vale]

*Skips to End*
The druid becomes two teir fours or a teir four and five, unlikely but possibly 5 and 5. Just calling the animal companion as it is.

[Flickerdart]

*Skips to End*
The druid becomes two teir fours or a teir four and five, unlikely but possibly 5 and 5. Just calling the animal companion as it is.
If your animal companion is a T5, you're really not using it properly. If your wildshape is T5, you're really not using it properly.

[Spore]

T3, with dropping to T5 before you get wildshape and after you run out of uses per day.

[eggynack]

If your animal companion is a T5, you're really not using it properly. If your wildshape is T5, you're really not using it properly.
He might be talking about PF on the topic of wild shape. As for the animal companion, I don't know that he's necessarily mistaken. You obviously can't layer on buffs, and the base animal companion is definitely hanging out in that range. I suppose you may be able to hit tier four with feats though, and it's not like you can spend them in all that many ways without casting. Combo together natural bond and exalted companion for VoP, and you've got a pretty effective fighting force.