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Dausuul
2007-02-26, 01:50 PM
I was curious to see what people did to help visualize/track the combat map, and what they thought of the options.

1. The combat map exists purely in the DM's head. The players announce what they're doing and the DM tracks the results in classic quick-and-dirty fashion.
2. The combat map is sketched roughly at the start of the fight so the players have an idea of the layout, but there is no effort to keep careful track of exactly where everyone is.
3. The combat map is sketched in detail at the start of the combat, and the DM tracks everyone's location fairly carefully.
4. We use a grid and minis.

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-26, 01:53 PM
number 4. We all played Warhammer and such before D&D, so it seemed natural

Thomas
2007-02-26, 01:53 PM
Grid and minis. Much easier than any of the other options.

We only really use it for D&D, though; it's the only game we play with combat mechanics where precise positioning really counts.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-26, 01:54 PM
back in 2nd ed we did a rough sketch but starting with 3rd ed. we moved to a grid with minis. I prefer this a lot more because we have had players in the past who would always argue and whine when a AoE spell would go ooff and try to get out of damage now they can't get away with it.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-26, 02:36 PM
number 4. We all played Warhammer and such before D&D, so it seemed natural

Same.

For my d20 Modern Campaign I got some old Mordhiem models and converted everyone a specialised PC model. Except for the one person who wanted to play a female character so I had to buy a lead blister pack. Pity Citadel Minatures are so gender (I think eldar and Elf standard regiments might have a better mix) limited even if it is realistic. Witch Elves and Escher Gangers sadly don't represent every person's idea of a female warrior.

Matthew
2007-02-26, 02:43 PM
Sometimes one and sometimes another. Depends on how compicated the combat is and the distance between combatants. I prefer not to use models and counters, but it is often unavoidable. Given the option, I use Hexes or even just plain measurements...

Rabiesbunny
2007-02-26, 02:44 PM
Heh, for us, battle is ALWAYS a loose thing. The DM doesn't really make us roll dice for familiar/animal companions, and lets us BS out way out of some situations. As long as the roleplay makes sense. He just describes the scene to us, and lets us go, and imagine it. Sometimes we have a map, but that's so rare...

Chris_Chandler
2007-02-26, 02:47 PM
Really, at this point, it's a monetary issue. I sketch out initial positions when it's really necessary (life and death, or potential for escape), but otherwise it's all pretty finessed. That's not the way I like it, though. I'd rather have a detailed battle-map with all the trimmings. That's not cheap, though, but I'm working on some solutions for my group.

Oeryn
2007-02-26, 02:56 PM
Most of the time, in real life games, I just use a big dry erase board, and have everyone put a token (mini, dice, penny, whatever) where they are. It seems to work, most of the time, if the combat's fairly simple.

Once the spells start flying and such, it's helpful to have a grid, for the above reason that deciding who's close enough to get burnt can quickly devolve into the highly intellectual "Nuh-uh/Yeah-huh" argument. The grids can be quite expensive, though. A cheap alternative I found was a cardboard deal that's used to cut patterns. I found it at a fabric store for about 3 bucks, and it's worked great. It has some weird lines in it, but it's huge (about 4 ft x 6 ft), and it's worked for every major combat I've tried it with.

So basically, the short answer is "It depends". I tend to go with the quick and easy route, if the combat's simple. But if the encounter is huge, and likely to feature the words "area of effect" more than a couple times, I go ahead and break out the grid.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-26, 03:16 PM
for our grid I just used the free one that comes with the minis starter sets (may be available very cheap online) and had it laminated for about 7 or 8 bucks it was very cheap. plus you can use dry erase on the lamination.

Kantolin
2007-02-26, 03:20 PM
Solid grid for us, although usually our grids are featureless, mostly featureless, or have dice to represent walls/trees/etc.

A couple of my friends collect miniatures, so we use miniatures to represent people. Of course, the miniatures for the monsters tend to not be accurate in the slightest in comical order of the stick fashion. ^_^

I just like da grids.

IncredibleGeek
2007-02-26, 03:21 PM
I don't get to play very often, but when I do it's usually with me DMing a group of newbies. So I basically sketch the area and use little pieces of paper to mark players and enemies.

I tend to like fast, violent combat (FEAR + Extreme Difficulty + No Slo-Mo = WIN.), so I like to keep things moving, mostly by making a lot of assumptions about what's actually happening "on the ground."

Then again, I don't get to play "serious" DnD, so maybe I'm just skewed. ;)

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-26, 03:23 PM
Rough sketches that only I can see (kept behind my screen). I refuse to shell out money for expensive miniatures and battle-mats---dammit, if I wanted all that I'd just play Warhammer!

Lòkki Gallansbayne
2007-02-26, 03:29 PM
Grid and minis, only the 'minis' are usually in fact counters or bits of paper, although last session one of the players did bring along a bunch of minis which were used for the PCs. Also, at one point it transpired that we were fighting oozes so we used Haribo sweets and jelly babies to represent those. :D

The grid is usually hand-drawn onto a white board that we just place face up on the table. A while back we used to use a grid printed onto a clear plastic sheet and initial our positions with marker pens, but that was kind of a hassle.

PnP Fan
2007-02-26, 03:52 PM
Yes, well, I generally find that wizards kick much butt, and fighters generally lose out at higher levels. . ..

oh, sorry wrong thread. ;-)

Grid and mini's, especially if there's more than one villain, but just generally grid and mini's anyway.

Stevenson
2007-02-26, 04:00 PM
We use a rough sketch and minis. Whiteboards are our DM's best friend. He can draw it up, we place the minis, move 'em around, etc. And we all found it such a grand scheme that we all started doing it when we had our own campaigns.

And after we move, no need to waste anything, either. Just erase and re-draw something else.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-26, 04:35 PM
Mix of one and two for me, due to monetary issues and the DM (me) not being very good at pr inclined to drawing maps.

Krellen
2007-02-26, 04:37 PM
At a tabletop, grid and minis.

On a forum, in the GM's head.

LotharBot
2007-02-26, 04:59 PM
I went so far as to buy two large magnetic dry-erase boards with 1" grid dots. I took off the backing and glued the dry-erase surface to my gaming table. Each character is represented by a miniature, and monsters are represented by miniatures, dice, small paper squares, or candy depending on the group and number of enemies.

The very first day I had both boards on the table, the module just happened to have a 300'x100' room that took up all but a few rows along the edges of the board. It was kinda cool...

Bouldering Jove
2007-02-26, 05:03 PM
We use a Go board with tokens for the enemies and folded paper scraps with names on them to represent significant figures. It's cheap, if you already have the board and tokens, and I think it's nicer to have a purely abstract representation than mismatched miniatures.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-26, 05:09 PM
In my current game, we use a grid and minis, although usually it's just a blackboard.

Lemur
2007-02-26, 05:13 PM
Back when I was playing 2nd edition, most of the fights were just from the DM's head. It's been a bit of a mixture in 3rd ed, but usually it's with a grid and either minatures or other various tokens.

Zincorium
2007-02-26, 05:29 PM
DM's head, when I'm not the DM. We shift around a bit, although we do have another main DM.

Apparently, using mini's (which we have) and a battle map 'causes arguments' about positioning. The only reason we don't argue about positioning in his head is because we have no idea what's going on and any tactical planning is completely useless. The only time we've come close to a TPK is because somehow we decided to get into the worst imaginable positions, which we had no idea we were doing because we couldn't get a clear description.

When I DM for the group, the battle mat comes out. Period. I don't care if we're using dice to represent characters, I feel it's the only way to fairly adjudicate things like AoOs and area effect attacks.

Dhavaer
2007-02-26, 05:32 PM
My head, or a drawn map. If I wasn't so lazy, I might bother to update and upload the map after every round, but I'm not sure that would be worthwhile. I might try it sometime, though.

The J Pizzel
2007-02-26, 05:42 PM
I did the same as the guy a few posts up. I took the battle grid out of the DMG and had it laminated. I then have several different color markers for trees, doors, desks, etc. and the battles go smooth as can be. I can't imagine how I used to play without a battle map. AoE spells, flanking, line attacks, there all soooo much easier now.

pizzel

Roethke
2007-02-26, 05:44 PM
Hmm,

I grew up on 2nd Ed, when all combats were pretty rough, or just description. Moving to 3rd & 3.5, we tried World's Largest Dungeon with a battle-mat and minis (man, that was a disaster), but in general keep with the rough sketch. If there's a big battle, though, we break out the minis. adds to the drama.

Ravyn
2007-02-26, 06:08 PM
I've actually done all of the above at some point or another. The most common means for me, however, has been in the head of whoever's running, with the occasional sketch when nobody gets where everyone is--probably mostly because of the online component to our games. Sure, I've used ways of modeling locations, but hardly anyone asks. (Then again, the group I fell in with last winter uses Legos. Lots and lots of Legos. It's rather staggering--and amusingly enough, very good for fighting in three dimensions. Particularly when you do run out of space, have just eaten dinner, and the guy on the gryphon falls, dumping his figure into... the cantaloupe rinds.)

YPU
2007-02-27, 11:19 AM
We used to play with sketches, but that dident work. So we moved to the standard batlegrid with paper for walls and stuff, then we had a plastified batlegrid and whiteboard markers, that did work but the markers started to well, leave a mark. Now we have the steelsquire flipmats, two of them and they do work. Man, you can wipe them clean with the underside of a mini.

Indon
2007-02-27, 11:26 AM
For my campaigns, this depends largely on the complexity of the fight. If the party's fighting 6 archers, out comes the map and miniatures; I can't track cover in my head, and it's a precise thing. If the most pressing concern is AoE, we may just use miniatures and I'll say, "Yeah, you can move about that far" or the like, and I'll point out AoE radii and such to the party on request. If there are few enemies, and ranged attacks are not very critical, (or if I'm running most fights in my Mutants and Masterminds game, which I play very freeform) then it'll all be in my head.

Galathir
2007-02-27, 01:56 PM
I voted for rough sketch, but our gaming group has used pretty much all of the choices at one time or another. Generally we play on a grid with minis but terrain and features are generally just roughed out. The DM details things only if they are important.

At times, particularly if I DM, we will do whole combats just in our heads. I might sketch out the area so the players know what the terrain is like but character placement and actions are purely mental. While it can get confusing, good description by both players and DM can make it quite fun.

ShadowYRM
2007-02-27, 02:37 PM
Yeah, we are 100% accurate with combat. None of us likes "hack-n-slash" but we love tactical combat. We have the sessions running very smoothly now where role-play and combat are pretty seamless.

Sometimes, we'll set the party minis in, say, the magic shop on my tabletop town... it took two seconds, and doesn't lead to anything. Other times, I might say "roll initiative" if combat breaks out in the middle of shopping (perhaps the golem guarding the shop goes berserk due to tampering... or perhaps thugs are starting trouble in the street... or perhaps the shop is fireballed by a cult group starting trouble in the town...).

So yeah, we represent just about everything... we even have little plastic things for representing flight heights.

It's taken a long time to build the collection to this point though.

okpokalypse
2007-02-27, 04:35 PM
Really, at this point, it's a monetary issue. I sketch out initial positions when it's really necessary (life and death, or potential for escape), but otherwise it's all pretty finessed. That's not the way I like it, though. I'd rather have a detailed battle-map with all the trimmings. That's not cheap, though, but I'm working on some solutions for my group.

If you want, I can give you a schematic that will allow you to put a full gaming table together for under $100. I did it myself and it took about 2 Days total after I got all the material. The one I have is a 4' x 8' MDF Table-Top ($23) that has 4 2"x2" pressure treated outer legs & 2 2"x2" inner supports. They're mounted with under-table mounts & screws for quick removal when transport is needed, or for storage. ($15 for Legs, Supports, Mounts & Nubs). Putting all this together took like 2 hours, and the Home Depot, or Lowes, or whatever you use will cut it all for you to dimension spec.

Then, I spray painted the top to give it a sandy/grainy look and overlayed that with a grid. After that was set, I clear-coated it. The total cost of all that was like $8, but the time was considerable for drying and precision.

Lastly, I bought two 4'x4' sheets of acrylic glass. They were $22 each. The key in getting these is to MAKE SURE that it's as non-porous as possible. The more porous, the more the dry-erase has a tendency to stain. Another $4 on Corner and Side Mounts for the acrylic glass, and Booya! Gaming Table Ready!

My groups been using it for about 2 years now and we love it. My next step at some point is going to build in cubby holes on the long sides for people to store stuff instead of eating grid real-estate, as well as get a projector mounted overhead to allow the DM's PC to control the map.

okpokalypse
2007-02-27, 04:37 PM
Similarly, if anyone's looking for realtively cheap game-sheets (grid or hex) - look up this guy (http://hometown.aol.com/geoharpst/myhomepage/GameSheets.htm). I got one from him about 4 years ago, and it showed no wear for the two years I used it before the table was made.

LotharBot
2007-02-27, 04:55 PM
If you want, I can give you a schematic that will allow you to put a full gaming table together for under $100.

Yes please... make a webpage or something, so I can bookmark it for later.

darkzucchini
2007-02-27, 07:39 PM
Mostly go with the rough sketch on the dry erase board and use those little, half-marble counter thingamajigs to mark the players and NPCs. You know what I mean.

Lord Tataraus
2007-02-27, 08:18 PM
We use grid and minis because I use a lot of facing rules and other variants, plus one of the players is a mins fanatic and he would be pissed if we didn't use his minis.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-02-27, 08:20 PM
I refuse to use anything but a grid and miniatures to represent my battles.

okpokalypse
2007-02-27, 08:29 PM
Here's a Quick Breakdown of Materials one could use to do this:

- Lowe's MDF Panel - 3/4" x 49" x 97" - $22.88 (Item # 37461)

I like using MDF because it's not very prone to warping in a decent moisture environment (like a basement).

After getting this you need to make a choice or two:
1. Permanent Strong Support
2. Adequate Support w/ Storage Ease

Basically, if you like the 1st Option (recommended for 4' x 8' tables) you can't just take the legs off all that easily. Storage is kinda a pain, as you'd have to remove the legs which would later require getting under the acrylic glass to unscrew them. However, this is much better if you plan on playing weekly, and want a permanent table.

If you need to be able to fold up your table and put it away when done, or have a pickup and want to bring it where you game, then you will have lesser support (and I'd recommend a 3'x6' table instead).

Strong Support:

- Home Depot Millstead 4"x4"x12' Post (http://homedepot.bighammersoftware.com/ProductInfo.aspx?cid=871518&pid=036f97c7-4db0-45a5-9ae4-bf9beec2cbf8) $13.97

Have this cut into five (5) 4"x4"x28" Sections. You should then mark an area of 4"x4" exactly 6" in from each edge at the corners. These will be your outer legs. I recommend four (4) 3" Particle/Combo Wood Screws to mount each leg. Each should be in at 1" from the edges at the corners, leaving a 2" gap between neighboring screws on each leg.

Do the same for the middle support. It should be at the true middle - not hard to figure that out with a tape-measure :). Use the same securing practice. You only need one support because of the strength and width of the wood used.

Also get two (2) 4-packs of the nubs you fasten to the bottom of your legs. In the end, the table top (before additional mods) should be at about 29 1/4".

Side Note: Now, my friend has conjectured that one could mount 4"x4"x4" leg-stubs, drill out a 1 1/4"d x 2" hole and insert a fastener into these to mount 2' Legs beneath those. I think it's doable, and a nice addition if you want sturdiness and movability, but overall I think it's a hell of a lot of extra work, and requires more than a basic toolset I'm operating under.
Adequate Support w/ Storage:

Here you can do 2 things... Look to save cash and cut/fasten your own table-legs, or buy two (2) sets of table legs that come with screw-in fasteners. I'd recommend the latter unless you really like a project :).

If you're buying the legs ready w/ mounts & fastener, it's easy. Just make sure that you mount the legs in 6" from the edges on the outside, and put 2 braces (for a 4'x8' table) or 1 brace (for a 3'x6' table) as appropriate. These will run you anywhere from $12 to $20 - reasonably.

If you want a project to save some $$...

- Home Depot Millstead 2"x4"x10' Douglas Fir Board (http://homedepot.bighammersoftware.com/ProductInfo.aspx?cid=834148&pid=be8963cf-06e2-4ee3-92e8-efee3be49663) - $3.39

I like Douglas Fir because it's got great Strength / Weight ratio, and MDF is pretty dern heavy. For this Board, have the Depot cut it into four (6) 2"x2"x28" Sections. This will leave you with a 2"x4"x34" (2" loss from cutting) section left over, which you can keep for whatever ya want - like a player whapping stick when they get too power-gamery ;).

- Table-Leg Mounts (I can't find a website reference).

This uses 1/2" wood screws (8) to secure a metal mount to each underside corner of your MDF Board. I recommend mounting them about 6" in from each side. The vertical rise of the Mount should be about 1 1/2", and should slot to accept a 1" fastener. The Fastener is then secured in the 2"x2"x28" "leg" top, creating nice screw-on legs.

Be forewarned, with any of these thinner legs (2"x2") that you'll need two people to turn the table over after you've fastened them. The legs may not be strong enough to support an odd-angled lift and turn. They won't just snap off, but you're likely to bend your mounts for the legs, and create a table wobble. It's not good :).
Both of the above examples specify outer legs be 6" in from the edge of the table. This is an ABSOLUTE must if you don't want your table, or central brace to warp, as the weight outside the legs serves to distribute the table mass across all legs/supports, and not put too much stress on the central support. Once you pick up a sheet of MDF, you'll understand why I say this. If you're smallish, bring a friend when you pick it up :).

Ok, so now you've got the basic table together.

Now you'll want to get a paint that suits you. I recommend lighter colors personally. I used Rust-Oleum's American Accents, Stone (http://www.rustoleum.com/product.asp?frm_product_id=16&SBL=1) line, and used the "Bleached Stone" color. It looks awesome.

Once I applied that and let it set (I just let it set overnight), I took a fine grain sandpaper and smoothed it out. Not too much mind you - as you'll expose the board underneath - but enough so that you can do the next step...

The Gridlines. Now, again, there's pricy and easy or hard and free ways to do this. If you're looking for easy and spending a few bucks, go get a grid printed out on a clear sheet for the appropriate table size, and just lay it over top (under the Acrylic Sheets to come). If you've got access to a printer capable of doing this - great! If not, it can get pricy.

If you're doing it yourself, you've got a variety of ways to do it, and it's really just up to your own personal tastes.

Some will just take the old permanent marker and go to town. Be careful - you don't want to mess it up - as you can only sand away the marker spots so much before you need to reapply paint.

In my case, I went a little more extravagant. I etched out furrows so that the natural dark-brown of the MDF came out. When I was done, to preserve it, I poly-euothane'd the whole thing. It has a cool 3D'ish look.

Next Step...

Acrylic Top

I'd recommend a .125" sheet. It's often cheaper to get two (2) 48"x48" sheet than one single 48"x96" sheet. Here's a link to a site with what you're looking for: https://secure1.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=plastiweb&BusType=BtoC&Count1=449428737&Count2=366569161

Don't be dissuaded by the price - as this sheet in particular is industry top-of-the-line and the price reflects that. You can get similar sheets to these in such place as Home Depot and Lowes (where I got mine - though I don't see it on the website) for MUCH less. Mine, 2 years ago, were $22 each.

Then you just need to get corner and side table mounts to hold the acrylic sheets into place, and BAM! You've got a pretty kick-ass gaming table. It's nothing fancy, but it's relatively inexpensive compared to what some places charge for much smaller tables.

And lastly, again, make sure you're testing the acrylic sheet's with a dry erase and paper towel before you purchase. These places often have samples hanging, so test out how porous they are until you find one that you feel is ok. The more Porous, the more it'll stain from the dry-erase, and the more you'll have to scrub down the acrylic sheets to get the stain off.

I hope this is good enough for those of you with the basic handiwork to go from here... If you need more specifics, let me know. I'll have to dig out my "blueprints" for it (which are admittedly rough) and scan em if anyone needs dimension specific distances beyond what I've given.

PS. If we think this is potentially something a lot of people might like to try out, I can move it to another thread and let it live there... Maybe even have a Mod Sticky it ;).

PPS. I'll take some pics of my gaming table soon and post em up so you can see how the finished product looks.

Matthew
2007-02-28, 12:21 PM
I refuse to use anything but a grid and miniatures to represent my battles.

Um, why? What happens when you don't have the right models?

Diggorian
2007-02-28, 01:08 PM
We use a coffeetable-length battlemat with square grid on one side hexes on the back and wet erase markers. Our minis arent exact but resemble our PC's close enough; I did once forget an orc mini stood for a dueregar and tried to trip it :smallamused: .

We use this set up for every game we play that has defined rules on movement (all). The DM redrawing maps gives us nice smoke/snack/joke breaks.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-28, 01:44 PM
The majority of times we let the DM decide who is where, but we always try at least to get a basic sketch down. We've been trying to use minis more lately.

Baalzebub
2007-02-28, 01:48 PM
Mostly DM's Head. We are old players since 2nd edition, so we rarely use battlegrid or figures.

Nahal
2007-02-28, 04:29 PM
I don't think I've every seen a grid for combat purposes. A rough drawing has been used occasionally (usually to establish our locations in reference to each-other or some large, flammable object) but by and large combat is both loose and uncommon in the campaigns I've played.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-02-28, 05:12 PM
Um, why? What happens when you don't have the right models?

It's called proxying - using one model in the place of another. And trust me, I have a LOT of models, and so do the people I (used to) play with. Lack of miniatures has never been a problem for me, regardless of whether it is for you or others on this forum.

Matthew
2007-02-28, 05:17 PM
I see. What happens if you find yourself without any models? Such as on holiday or otherwise away from home, but playing D&D?

Saithis Bladewing
2007-02-28, 05:18 PM
I see. What happens if you find yourself without any models? Such as on holiday or otherwise away from home, but playing D&D?

If for some reason that happened, then we'd play a mostly roleplaying game. If it really hit the fan and we HAD to do some fighting, I'd be willing to drop to grid paper and pencil, but not much else.

Zincorium
2007-02-28, 05:49 PM
I see. What happens if you find yourself without any models? Such as on holiday or otherwise away from home, but playing D&D?

Dice, legos, action figures, folded wedges of paper with the character printed on them. Really as long as people can remember which proxy is which and you pick ones which fit into the appropriate space on a (hastily hand drawn if neccessary) battle grid, then you should be good to go.

talsine
2007-02-28, 06:04 PM
We use a coffeetable-length battlemat with square grid on one side hexes on the back and wet erase markers. Our minis arent exact but resemble our PC's close enough; I did once forget an orc mini stood for a dueregar and tried to trip it :smallamused: .

We use this set up for every game we play that has defined rules on movement (all). The DM redrawing maps gives us nice smoke/snack/joke breaks.

This is pretty much how we play, though what side we use varies as we go from GURPS to d20 to d6 Star Wars, to Rifts, etc. Right now its just GURPS as i'm digesting all the Iron Kingdoms books for my game, but they've gotten a lot of use in the past. Still, building a table liek the ones describe above, that sounds like a plan...

ajkkjjk52
2007-02-28, 08:16 PM
Most groups I play in just use rough sketches on a whiteboard, but I'm anal-retentive about maps on a grid when I DM.