Unlimited Fireworks: Help with a PF Pyrokineticist Build

[Red Fel]

... Seriously, "I am the Fire of my Whip" sounds like an awesome title for a handbook for the PF Pyro. Somebody get on that. (Not it.)

Okay, so last month, I was toying with some ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358816-Burning-Melee-Combatant) for fire-based combat in Pathfinder. Thanks to some awesome suggestions, I fell in love with the Soulknife/Pyrokineticist combination. Sadly, the optimization guides I found were for the XPH Pyro, not the PF Pyro, and relied on 3.0/3.5 sources. Trying to build a PF-exclusive Pyro is apparently uncommon enough that it doesn't get its own handbook.

So here's the design. The build will be Ifrit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit) Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife)/Pyrokineticist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/pyrokineticist).

The next bits are spoilered for length.

Ifrits get +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis. I have no problems dumping Wis, but I figure I'll want Str, Dex, and Con aplenty for a melee build.

Ifrits also get Fire Resist 5, Burning Hands 1/day, and a bonus to Fire-based spellcasting. My options there: I can see keeping the Fire Resist, or I could trade it out for +4 Initiative, which is actually really solid, particularly since I get Fire Resist from Pyro. Thoughts? I can switch out Burning Hands for Enlarge Person, which is in my mind far more valuable for a melee class. Thoughts? Fire Affinity has to go; it's useless in this build. Fire in the Blood is okay, but it doesn't particularly sing to me (although technically I can use it at later levels for self-healing). Fire-Starter is also nice, but only triggers if I actually set something/someone on fire, and I don't think that Soulknife/Pyro abilities actually set things on fire.
Next, traits. The default assumes two, as will I. For my race trait, I'll be taking Expert Distractor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/expert-distractor-ifrit). Since the damage of Fire Lash is pure fire, that basically means double damage to Concentration DC. What should my other trait be, though?

Okay, so here's the build. Again, a CG Ifrit Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 10/ Soulknife +5. Looks something like this:



Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Features
Feats


1
Soulknife 1
+1
+0
+2
+2
Bonus Feat, Form Mind Blade, Shape Mind Blade, Throw Mind Blade, Wild Talent
Combat Expertise, Power Attack1


2
Soulknife 2
+2
+0
+3
+3
Blade Skill (Alter Blade)



3
Soulknife 3
+3
+1
+3
+3
Enhanced Mind Blade +1, Psychic Strike +1d8
Improved Feint


4
Soulknife 4
+4
+1
+4
+4
Blade Skill (Weapon Special)2



5
Soulknife 5
+5
+1
+4
+4
Enhanced Mind Blade +2, Quick Draw
Blistering Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/blistering-feint-combat-ifrit)


6
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 1
+5
+2
+5
+4
Fire Lash, Manipulate Blaze



7
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 2
+6
+2
+5
+5
Fire Adaptation (+4/10), Hand Afire 2d6
Firesight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/firesight-ifrit)


8
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 3
+7
+3
+6
+5
Bolt of Fire



9
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 4
+8
+3
+6
+5
Weapon Afire 2d6
Greater Feint


10
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 5
+8
+4
+7
+6
Nimbus



11
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 6
+9
+4
+7
+6
Firewalk, Leech Heat (2d6), Penetrating Fire
TBD3


12
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 7
+10
+5
+8
+6
Fire Adaptation (+8/20)



13
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 8
+11
+5
+8
+7
Hand Afire (4d6), Nimbus, Weapon Afire (4d6)
TBD3


14
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 9
+11
+6
+9
+7
Heat Death, Leech Heat (4d6)



15
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 10
+12
+6
+9
+7
Conflagration, Fire Soul
TBD3


16
Soulknife 6/ Pyrokineticist 10
+13
+7
+10
+8
Blade Skill (Fire Blade)



17
Soulknife 7/ Pyrokineticist 10
+14
+7
+10
+8
Enhanced Mind Blade +3, Psychic Strike +2d8
TBD3


18
Soulknife 8/ Pyrokineticist 10
+15
+7
+11
+9
Blade Skill (Firestorm)



19
Soulknife 9/ Pyrokineticist 10
+16
+8
+11
+9
Enhanced Mind Blade +4
TBD3


20
Soulknife 10/ Pyrokineticist 10
+17
+8
+12
+10
Blade Skill (TBD4)




1 Soulknife bonus feat.
2 Grants Trip. What, you thought this build was just about burning things?
3 Additional feats to be determined. Suggestions welcomed. Perhaps Knock Down?
4 This Blade Skill, as well as others, is subject to some consideration. Suggestions welcomed.


So here's where I am. First, as shown above, I'm missing a trait, some feats, at least one Blade Skill, and I could use some advice on alternate racial features and whether I've made good choices here.

Second, I know, fire damage is inferior, everything has resistance, fail forever. I can turn off the Fire Lash and switch back to an ordinary Mind Blade if I have to, which won't be awesome but it will be functional; also, Leech Heat gives me a source of cold damage, and Penetrating Fire helps. So it won't be ideal against fire-resistant enemies, but it can still function.

Lastly, sources. This build is PF-exclusive, no third party, please.

I could really use advice on filling in the holes (and maybe not relying on Trip and Feint quite as much). Part of my issue is that I really don't know PF Psionic feats all that well, and whether they're worthwhile for a Soulknife; again, I could really use the expertise of those more experience than I at PF in general, and PF Psionics in particular.

Any thoughts?

[Anlashok]

no third party, please.
Er... both of those classes are third party already.

[Vhaidara]

DSP is a different style of third party :smalltongue:

Also, very interested in this, since I am a fellow lover of fire damage.

[IAmTehDave]

Er... both of those classes are third party already.

If he's working off the PFSRD, then they're not in the "third party" category. DSP is de-facto First Party PF Psionics.

If you weren't dumping WIS, I'd say to check out the Gifted Blade archetype: give up Psychic Strike (which is really weak) for some not-bad manifesting. You'd be a bit more MAD, but a 12 wisdom gets you your 2nd level powers, and a 13 gets you Psionic Lion's Charge if you go SK 11 / Pyro 9 instead of 10/10. (Although you'd be giving up Conflagrate for that, which isn't a tradeoff to make lightly) Also, if you nab the Focused Offense blade skill, you can dump Str as you use your wis instead for attack/damage with your mind blade.

As far as the psionic feats: if you don't mind giving up your move action here and there to refresh your psionic focus, then Psychic Meditation (basically feat tax for anything that requires spending focus) and Psionic Weapon/Deep impact might be a decent triopair: expend your psionic focus to resolve something as a touch attack(deep impact) or deal an extra 2d6 damage (Psionic weapon), and deal an extra damage with every attack as long as you're psionically focused (Psionic Weapon).
(edit: Double checked, the whip is a touch attack anyway)

Speed of Thought or Up The Walls are both (imo) fun. Speed of thought adds 10 feet to your movement speed (enhancement bonus) or 30 feet for a round if you expend your psionic focus.
Up the walls lets you count wall squares as floor for movement, as long as you end your movement for the round on a horizontal surface.
Another feat or two to consider: Extra Blade Skill - you can get the blade skill that converts your Mind Blade's damage to, say, Lightning. Though RAW the blade skill requires SK 8, you might be able to nudge your DM into allowing you to take it at character level 9, since the whip counts as your Mind Blade. (9 instead of 8, as that's when you'd get the feat slot)

In other news, grab a Crystal Hilt as soon as you can (extra +1-3 to your mind blade's enhancement bonus)
edit: if you go the Wisknife route (using the Focused Offense blade skill) then you can probably still get power attack as your first level Soulknife feat, since it doesn't say you have to qualify for the feat to be able to take it as a bonus feat)

Edit: (Because this post isn't a Frankensteinian abomination of fiddly edits already)
Traits: look at the Psionic Traits on the PFSRD for some goodies:
Expend your Psionic Focus to cast Far Hand with a 10 foot range and 1 foot of force. (If you can't figure out what to do with this I can't help you)
Expend your Psionic Focus to make a 5-foot step as an immediate action.
Psionic Knack will net you +2 manifester levels of Soulknife (see the sidebar of "Soulknives and Prestige Classes")

[Red Fel]

If he's working off the PFSRD, then they're not in the "third party" category. DSP is de-facto First Party PF Psionics.

Yeah, I probably should have clarified that point, but you've pretty much got it.


If you weren't dumping WIS, I'd say to check out the Gifted Blade archetype: give up Psychic Strike (which is really weak) for some not-bad manifesting. You'd be a bit more MAD, but a 12 wisdom gets you your 2nd level powers, and a 13 gets you Psionic Lion's Charge if you go SK 11 / Pyro 9 instead of 10/10. Also, if you nab the Focused Offense blade skill, you can dump Str as you use your wis instead for attack/damage with your mind blade.

Hmm... Interesting thought. And Psychic Strike doesn't impress that much. By Soulknife 5, then, I would have 2 powers known (1st level) and 2 PP/day, by endgame I'd have 4 powers known (2nd level) and 11 PP/day. And some of those are pretty useful.

Two problems. First, most of those powers don't fit the theme. (Hint: It has four letters and burns things.) Weapon of Energy is nice, but that's beyond my levels. Second, Ifrits have a Wis penalty, and while I don't mind offsetting that somewhat, the character will be primarily melee-based - having to add another attribute on which to focus makes the build look a bit MAD.

If I were going for a pure Soulknife, though, and without the fire theme, it's definitely got appeal. Thanks for pointing me at this one.


As far as the psionic feats: if you don't mind giving up your move action here and there to refresh your psionic focus, then Psychic Meditation (basically feat tax for anything that requires spending focus) and Psionic Weapon/Deep impact might be a decent triopair: expend your psionic focus to resolve something as a touch attack(deep impact) or deal an extra 2d6 damage (Psionic weapon), and deal an extra damage with every attack as long as you're psionically focused (Psionic Weapon).
(edit: Double checked, the whip is a touch attack anyway)

Yeah, I don't see Deep Impact as being necessary with the Fire Lash, but Psionic Weapon sounds useful, as does Psionic Meditation.


Speed of Thought or Up The Walls are both (imo) fun. Speed of thought adds 10 feet to your movement speed (enhancement bonus) or 30 feet for a round if you expend your psionic focus.
Up the walls lets you count wall squares as floor for movement, as long as you end your movement for the round on a horizontal surface.

Mobility. Do like!


Another feat or two to consider: Extra Blade Skill - you can get the blade skill that converts your Mind Blade's damage to, say, Lightning. Though RAW the blade skill requires SK 8, you might be able to nudge your DM into allowing you to take it at character level 9, since the whip counts as your Mind Blade. (9 instead of 8, as that's when you'd get the feat slot)

Hmm... Two questions. First, Lightning Blade requires "at least 8th level." Does that mean character levels, or Soulknife levels? (Because if it means SK levels, I think I have to readjust my Blade Skills.) Second, how does Lightning Blade react with Fire Lash? I think Lightning Blade supersedes ("instead of its normal damage"), which makes for some interesting ideas, although it kind of hurts the theme.

Hmm.


In other news, grab a Crystal Hilt as soon as you can (extra +1-3 to your mind blade's enhancement bonus)

Oh. Oh, I just saw that. That's so pretty. Do want. Good call. Thanks!

[IAmTehDave]

Hmm... Interesting thought. And Psychic Strike doesn't impress that much. By Soulknife 5, then, I would have 2 powers known (1st level) and 2 PP/day, by endgame I'd have 4 powers known (2nd level) and 11 PP/day. And some of those are pretty useful.
If I were going for a pure Soulknife, though, and without the fire theme, it's definitely got appeal. Thanks for pointing me at this one.

Was just pointing out some interesting options for you :)
To be honest, you could get away with just an 11 or 12 wis with gifted blade, and treat them as uses/day class abilities. Also of note: The "powers known" is per day. Every day you can swap out which powers you know. As far as theme? Your theme is "Make things burn" (via attacks and then special abilities, it seems) and some of those powers are either "be better at making things burn" or "get myself into the right positions to make things burn".


Yeah, I don't see Deep Impact as being necessary with the Fire Lash, but Psionic Weapon sounds useful, as does Psionic Meditation.

Yeah, I put Deep Impact in there before re-reading Pyrokineticist. Psionic Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon are both straight damage increases on a single attack, at the cost of a Full Round Action (or move action, after feat tax) before and/or after.


Hmm... Two questions. First, Lightning Blade requires "at least 8th level." Does that mean character levels, or Soulknife levels? (Because if it means SK levels, I think I have to readjust my Blade Skills.) Second, how does Lightning Blade react with Fire Lash? I think Lightning Blade supersedes ("instead of its normal damage"), which makes for some interesting ideas, although it kind of hurts the theme.
Lightning is just compressed fire, what are you talking about? :smallwink: (Think Azula from Avatar)

As far as required levels...I think in PF there's an implicit "At least X level means class level" but it's up to the DM.
As to Lightning Blade interacting with Fire Lash? IMO it does its damage replacement just fine: the fire lash is treated as mechanically identical to your mind blade for all interactions.


Oh. Oh, I just saw that. That's so pretty. Do want. Good call. Thanks!
Best part of them: They explicitly add you your existing enhancement bonus.


Also: Check out the Psionic Traits (I listed some of the jucier effects available)
Also also: the alter blade bladeskill is probably not worth it for your build. If you're going to be feinting, there's a bladeskill that lets you feint + manifest your blade in the same action.

[Red Fel]

Edit: (Because this post isn't a Frankensteinian abomination of fiddly edits already)
Traits: look at the Psionic Traits on the PFSRD for some goodies:
Expend your Psionic Focus to cast Far Hand with a 10 foot range and 1 foot of force. (If you can't figure out what to do with this I can't help you)
Expend your Psionic Focus to make a 5-foot step as an immediate action.
Psionic Knack will net you +2 manifester levels of Soulknife (see the sidebar of "Soulknives and Prestige Classes")

Alright, let's see. Psychokinetic Talent (the Far Hand one) does sound nice. Very useful. As are Perceptive Talent (+1 to initiative and Sense Motive while focused), Psychoportive Talent (five-foot step) and Psionic Item Familiarity (UMD as a class skill and +1). All definitely useful. That said, I'd like to see if any other traits are more thematic for me. But these are definitely on the list.


Was just pointing out some interesting options for you :)
To be honest, you could get away with just an 11 or 12 wis with gifted blade, and treat them as uses/day class abilities. Also of note: The "powers known" is per day. Every day you can swap out which powers you know. As far as theme? Your theme is "Make things burn" (via attacks and then special abilities, it seems) and some of those powers are either "be better at making things burn" or "get myself into the right positions to make things burn".

Valid point, yeah. And it's not like Wis is useless - a Will save is a Will save, and several skills key off of Wis. So fair point.


Lightning is just compressed fire, what are you talking about? :smallwink: (Think Azula from Avatar)

... If I ever have a character who plays the "My own mother called me a monster" card, you are all hereby authorized to murder the crap out of that character. Twice. Apiece.


As far as required levels...I think in PF there's an implicit "At least X level means class level" but it's up to the DM.

Yeah. Dang, means I have to reshuffle, then. Because... Yup, I took Fire Blade at SK 6. Dangit.


As to Lightning Blade interacting with Fire Lash? IMO it does its damage replacement just fine: the fire lash is treated as mechanically identical to your mind blade for all interactions.

Pretty much as I figured. Also, awesome. Means I get to use "Shocking!" at least once.


Also: Check out the Psionic Traits (I listed some of the jucier effects available)
Also also: the alter blade bladeskill is probably not worth it for your build. If you're going to be feinting, there's a bladeskill that lets you feint + manifest your blade in the same action.

Alter Blade allows the Fire Lash to count as my Mind Blade. Express language (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/pyrokineticist#TOC-Fire-Lash-Ps-):
If the character has the ability to fashion a mind blade and has the Altered Blade blade skill, her fire lash may be treated as her mind blade for mechanical purposes such as enhanced mind blade and other class abilities.(Emphasis added.)

So, yeah. Otherwise, you're right, I probably wouldn't take it. And looking at Deceptive Blade, it's so-so. Yes, I can form my mind blade while feinting, which is okay - but why would I have it not-formed while in combat, and why would I be feinting unarmed? (Hold up, thanks to Hand Afire, I'm always armed. Huh. Keep calm and carry on.) And yes, with Improved Feint it lets me use Psychic Strike, but as previously stated that's kind of weak, and it's a once-a-day thing. By contrast, Weapon Special lets me make trip attacks, and a whip is a great trip weapon, particularly when I can simply recreate it as a move-equivalent action if I have to drop it.

[Red Fel]

Okay. So going over the past few comments, here's where I am now.

Here we go again. CG Ifrit Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 10/ Soulknife +5, this time using the Gifted Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/gifted-blade) archetype (lose Psychic Strike, gain PP and powers). Looks something like this:



Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Features
Feats
PP/day
Powers Known


1
Soulknife 1
+1
+0
+2
+2
Bonus Feat, Form Mind Blade, Shape Mind Blade, Throw Mind Blade, Wild Talent
Combat Expertise, Power Attack1, Wild Talent1
22
0


2
Soulknife 2
+2
+0
+3
+3
Blade Skill (Alter Blade)

2
0


3
Soulknife 3
+3
+1
+3
+3
Enhanced Mind Blade +1
Improved Feint
2
1


4
Soulknife 4
+4
+1
+4
+4
Blade Skill (Weapon Special)3

3
1


5
Soulknife 5
+5
+1
+4
+4
Enhanced Mind Blade +2, Quick Draw
Blistering Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/blistering-feint-combat-ifrit)
4
2


6
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 1
+5
+2
+5
+4
Fire Lash, Manipulate Blaze

4
2


7
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 2
+6
+2
+5
+5
Fire Adaptation (+4/10), Hand Afire 2d6
Firesight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/firesight-ifrit)
4
2


8
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 3
+7
+3
+6
+5
Bolt of Fire

4
2


9
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 4
+8
+3
+6
+5
Weapon Afire 2d6
Greater Feint
4
2


10
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 5
+8
+4
+7
+6
Nimbus

4
2


11
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 6
+9
+4
+7
+6
Firewalk, Leech Heat (2d6), Penetrating Fire
Psionic Meditation
4
2


12
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 7
+10
+5
+8
+6
Fire Adaptation (+8/20)

4
2


13
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 8
+11
+5
+8
+7
Hand Afire (4d6), Nimbus, Weapon Afire (4d6)
Psionic Weapon
4
2


14
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 9
+11
+6
+9
+7
Heat Death, Leech Heat (4d6)

4
2


15
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 10
+12
+6
+9
+7
Conflagration, Fire Soul
Greater Psionic Weapon
4
2


16
Soulknife 6/ Pyrokineticist 10
+13
+7
+10
+8
Blade Skill (Mind Shield)

5
2


17
Soulknife 7/ Pyrokineticist 10
+14
+7
+10
+8
Enhanced Mind Blade +3
Speed of Thought
7
3


18
Soulknife 8/ Pyrokineticist 10
+15
+7
+11
+9
Blade Skill (Fire Blade)

9
3


19
Soulknife 9/ Pyrokineticist 10
+16
+8
+11
+9
Enhanced Mind Blade +4
Extra Blade Skill (Thunder Blade)4
11
4


20
Soulknife 10/ Pyrokineticist 10
+17
+8
+12
+10
Blade Skill (Firestorm)

13
4



1 Soulknife bonus feat.
2 Wild Talent grants 2 PP. All subsequent increases in PP come from the Gifted Blade archetype.
3 Grants Trip. What, you thought this build was just about burning things?
4 Surprised? Thunder blade. Sonic damage, chance to stagger. Booyah.

Thoughts?

[Psyren]

If he's working off the PFSRD, then they're not in the "third party" category. DSP is de-facto First Party PF Psionics.

There are no "first party PF Psionics." DSP is third party. It's in a different category of the PFSRD because (a) it was among the first (if not the first) 3rd-party material to be added to the PFSRD way back when, and (b) it eclipses all the others in popularity by a pretty heavy margin, so it got its own section.

There's nothing wrong with this - third-party isn't a dirty word by any means - but Paizo neither created nor officially sanctioned these rules for Pathfinder.




Ifrits get +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis. I have no problems dumping Wis, but I figure I'll want Str, Dex, and Con aplenty for a melee build.

Ifrits also get Fire Resist 5, Burning Hands 1/day, and a bonus to Fire-based spellcasting. My options there: I can see keeping the Fire Resist, or I could trade it out for +4 Initiative, which is actually really solid, particularly since I get Fire Resist from Pyro. Thoughts? I can switch out Burning Hands for Enlarge Person, which is in my mind far more valuable for a melee class. Thoughts? Fire Affinity has to go; it's useless in this build. Fire in the Blood is okay, but it doesn't particularly sing to me (although technically I can use it at later levels for self-healing). Fire-Starter is also nice, but only triggers if I actually set something/someone on fire, and I don't think that Soulknife/Pyro abilities actually set things on fire.
Next, traits. The default assumes two, as will I. For my race trait, I'll be taking Expert Distractor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/expert-distractor-ifrit). Since the damage of Fire Lash is pure fire, that basically means double damage to Concentration DC. What should my other trait be, though?

Yes, go with the initiative and the enlarge.

Catching on fire I agree will be tough for you because most of your fire effects are instantaneous and none of them are technically magic. I would personally go with the healing one.

I believe there's a Traits handbook you can dig through.

[Red Fel]

There are no "first party PF Psionics." DSP is third party. It's in a different category of the PFSRD because (a) it was among the first (if not the first) 3rd-party material to be added to the PFSRD way back when, and (b) it eclipses all the others in popularity by a pretty heavy margin, so it got its own section.

There's nothing wrong with this - third-party isn't a dirty word by any means - but Paizo neither created nor officially sanctioned these rules for Pathfinder.

Yeah, I don't have as much of an issue with third party in PF as I might in 3.5. Part of my reluctance is that I have less experience with PF, and thus would prefer to limit myself to sources I can grasp reasonably; part of it is my limited access to relevant materials.

Fortunately, I have some access to DSP's psionics, so I'm good there, but I'm also lacking access to other materials. For my own convenience, I limit myself primarily to what I can find on the PFSRD, and then I can check the books to shore up any gaps.


Yes, go with the initiative and the enlarge.

Catching on fire I agree will be tough for you because most of your fire effects are instantaneous and none of them are technically magic. I would personally go with the healing one.

I was leaning in that direction, yeah. Thanks.


I believe there's a Traits handbook you can dig through.

I think I found a few... And it's honestly a bit overwhelming. This one reduces my ACP! This one boosts my initiative! This one gives me UMD! All of these give a bonus on Fort saves!

I think I'm pretty set with regard to my racial trait, but narrowing it down to just one on the others is a bit of a fiend. Suppose I could just pick Reactionary and call it a day.

[IAmTehDave]

Suppose I could just pick Reactionary and call it a day.

Now THAT's sticking to theme... Fire character with the "reactionary" trait...
:smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

Now THAT's sticking to theme... Fire character with the "reactionary" trait...
:smallbiggrin:

Ouch. I was just going with it because "Ug, initiative good," and I figured being quick to act was a fire thing, but... Dang it, I didn't even intend that pun. It hurts!

Out of curiosity, what did you think of my using Thunder Blade instead of Lightning Blade? I figure Sonic isn't a heavily-resisted damage type, and staggered is a great debuff, but I can't really think of why I'd choose it thematically over something like Lightning (or even Ice Blade, at least that I could fluff the same way Leech Heat is fluffed).

In any event, I may end up reshuffling feats when all is said and done, but I think it looks decent. Certainly not optimized, but solid. Decent powers from which to choose; expend focus to deal some vicious snap damage; switch my Fire Lash to a different damage type in a pinch. I particularly like Firesight, how it mixes nicely with the smoke function of Manipulate Blaze. Basically, it's a functional melee build. Two-hand the Lash for PA; switch to one hand for a free +1 AC (Mind Shield); Hand Afire to be armed and dangerous while within melee (should I have taken IUS?); solid tripping ability and nastiness while feinting; great anticaster abilities thanks to Expert Distractor; powers to augment, atomic batteries to power, turbines to speed... It fits together with just enough variety to be useful.

EDIT: And I just noticed Psy's SK Guide (stupid me, read the guide first!). Psy, you're clearly in the know about this stuff - how do my Blade Skills look, both from a thematic and from an optimization perspective?

[IAmTehDave]

There's nothing wrong with this - third-party isn't a dirty word by any means - but Paizo neither created nor officially sanctioned these rules for Pathfinder.
I was being half sarcastic. I'm not averse to third party, as I think PF has attracted some really well-done third party material, esp. what's on the PFSRD. And I never said DSP was actually first party, just the de-facto Psionics for Pathfinder, since they did such a good job. (And hopefully will do good work with the ToB and MoI inspired stuff)


Yes, go with the initiative and the enlarge.
Note that the enlarge can also come from his Gifted blade manifesting in the form of Expansion. But having another source of it couldn't hurt.


Ouch. I was just going with it because "Ug, initiative good," and I figured being quick to act was a fire thing, but... Dang it, I didn't even intend that pun. It hurts!
Sorry, as somewhat of a gifted amateur punster I always assume people are going for it. Would you, perhaps, say that it...ah...burns? :smallcool:


Out of curiosity, what did you think of my using Thunder Blade instead of Lightning Blade? I figure Sonic isn't a heavily-resisted damage type, and staggered is a great debuff, but I can't really think of why I'd choose it thematically over something like Lightning (or even Ice Blade, at least that I could fluff the same way Leech Heat is fluffed).
IMO it's fairly solid, and thematically...eh, explosion shockwave? can't help you there. Just remember that sonic is half damage.


Other stuff
Honestly, I don't think the +1 shield bonus is worth a (precious) blade skill. You can get better in a relatively cheap ring, (Which is active even when 2Hing your whip) and soulknives are proficient with shields so you could just slap on a buckler or light shield if you're worried about your sub-6 AC

[Red Fel]

Honestly, I don't think the +1 shield bonus is worth a (precious) blade skill. You can get better in a relatively cheap ring, (Which is active even when 2Hing your whip) and soulknives are proficient with shields so you could just slap on a buckler or light shield if you're worried about your sub-6 AC

First, I got that wrong, Mind Shield is +2. Woo. Yeah, I'm not feeling it either.

Yeah. Honestly, it was a bit of a grab in the dark. But mostly I took it because, well... The other pre-8 Blade Skills weren't impressing me, either because the bonus didn't help my build, or because they had prereqs, or because I just plain didn't understand them. Although looking back at it, Combat Slide is a bit insane. Does that seem like a better choice? Maybe Mental Power? Rending Blades would certainly be funny. (A whip that gives a Climb bonus? Who'da thunk?)

[IAmTehDave]

First, I got that wrong, Mind Shield is +2. Woo. Yeah, I'm not feeling it either.

Yeah. Honestly, it was a bit of a grab in the dark. But mostly I took it because, well... The other pre-8 Blade Skills weren't impressing me, either because the bonus didn't help my build, or because they had prereqs, or because I just plain didn't understand them. Although looking back at it, Combat Slide is a bit insane. Does that seem like a better choice? Maybe Mental Power? Rending Blades would certainly be funny. (A whip that gives a Climb bonus? Who'da thunk?)

Combat Slide is a fun-looking one. IMO Mental Power is really good to help shore up some of the manifesting weakness you're going to have with a limited wis score (namely, limited PP/day.)

Additional Configurations is another one worthy of a look. Since you don't have Psychic Strike, you can't do Fluid Form. Alternate form lets you essentially carry a second weapon around with you with different enhancements. (It's what I picked for the one bladeskill my DM let me pick in the not-really-3.P game I'm in right now. Lets me fire +1 shock frost arrows or +1 Ghost Touch Undead Bane arrows without spending actions. (I'm allowed, in that game, to use any weapon enhancements out of the DMG, but not the MiC :smallfrown: ) Also: it means that your base Mind Blade can be different in each form: one is a 1H slashing, the other is a 2H bludgeoning, for instance. Less important with Alter Form.

If you feel lacking in ranged options, Mind Daggers is a thing. Throw with iteratives/haste from level 1.

Rending blades is funny, but remember the enhancement bonus to climb is only equal to the numerical enhancement bonus. (amplified however by your crystal hilt, hopefully)

[Psyren]

First, I got that wrong, Mind Shield is +2. Woo. Yeah, I'm not feeling it either.

Yeah. Honestly, it was a bit of a grab in the dark. But mostly I took it because, well... The other pre-8 Blade Skills weren't impressing me, either because the bonus didn't help my build, or because they had prereqs, or because I just plain didn't understand them. Although looking back at it, Combat Slide is a bit insane. Does that seem like a better choice? Maybe Mental Power? Rending Blades would certainly be funny. (A whip that gives a Climb bonus? Who'da thunk?)

I rated them in my handbook if that helps. Combat Slide is very useful.

[Red Fel]

Combat Slide is a fun-looking one. IMO Mental Power is really good to help shore up some of the manifesting weakness you're going to have with a limited wis score (namely, limited PP/day.)

Yeah, s'what I was thinking.


Additional Configurations is another one worthy of a look. Since you don't have Psychic Strike, you can't do Fluid Form. Alternate form lets you essentially carry a second weapon around with you with different enhancements. (It's what I picked for the one bladeskill my DM let me pick in the not-really-3.P game I'm in right now. Lets me fire +1 shock frost arrows or +1 Ghost Touch Undead Bane arrows without spending actions. (I'm allowed, in that game, to use any weapon enhancements out of the DMG, but not the MiC :smallfrown: ) Also: it means that your base Mind Blade can be different in each form: one is a 1H slashing, the other is a 2H bludgeoning, for instance. Less important with Alter Form.

I'll be honest, I dunno. Apart from swapping out damage types, I don't see myself switching configurations all that often. Further, given the fact that it will primarily be a Fire Lash, I don't see much point to it.


If you feel lacking in ranged options, Mind Daggers is a thing. Throw with iteratives/haste from level 1.

Tempting. But technically, I do have some ranged options thanks to Pyro - they're not iteratives (I don't think), but they function well enough.


Rending blades is funny, but remember the enhancement bonus to climb is only equal to the numerical enhancement bonus. (amplified however by your crystal hilt, hopefully)

True. Admittedly, it was mostly funny for the Indiana Jones-slash-Batman antics. Me climbing a wall with a whip made of fire, that has a grappling hook also made of fire on the end. Just amusing, I dunno.


I rated them in my handbook if that helps. Combat Slide is very useful.

Aye, your guide is what made me realize how useful Combat Slide is!

I'd love to know what your guide thinks of the Mental Power Blade Skill, but unfortunately, you haven't yet put in a section on the Gifted Blade archetype. (Your guide is awesome! Keep it up!)

I notice that you break down the SK generally between the Strknife, Dexknife and Wisknife; given that this chassis primarily functions on Dex and Cha, do you think I'm choosing foolishly with my feats and features?

[Psyren]

Yeah, I know I've been lazy and haven't finished it :smalltongue:

Mental Power is great, yes. Purple for any GB.

My personal suggestion would be that you take the Nimble Blade archetype, which will get you dex to damage with your fire whip.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, I know I've been lazy and haven't finished it :smalltongue:

Mental Power is great, yes. Purple for any GB.

My personal suggestion would be that you take the Nimble Blade archetype, which will get you dex to damage with your fire whip.

Hmm...

Looking at the archetype now. Basically, I would lose PA (but gain WF, which is better for a Dex-oriented build); I would lose shields and medium armor, but gain Mind Blade Finesse (which is pointless on a whip); I would gain Piranha Strike, which is basically just a non-PA PA, but lose one of my Blade Skills; I would lose one Mind Blade Enhancement, but gain the Agile ability, so now I get Dex-to-attack and Dex-to-damage (although I could have chosen that enhancement anyway); and I lose another Blade Skill, but gain the ability to switch out a temporary Blade Skill as I like.

Net loss: shields and medium armor, PA, two Blade Skills, one Mind Blade Enhancement. Net gain, WF, non-PA PA, Mind Blade Finesse, forced Agile, and a slottable Blade Skill. All-in-all, I'd call that a win. Nice!

It also occurs to me that I could take the Agile Maneuvers feat to sub Dex for Str in my CMB. As a plus, that's great for tripping. That said, it feels like a waste; my only two tricks in melee, really, would be Trip and Feint, and Feint isn't a Combat Maneuver in the traditional sense. Is it worth it to take Agile Maneuvers for Trip alone?

[Psyren]

Hmm...

Looking at the archetype now. Basically, I would lose PA (but gain WF, which is better for a Dex-oriented build); I would lose shields and medium armor, but gain Mind Blade Finesse (which is pointless on a whip); I would gain Piranha Strike, which is basically just a non-PA PA, but lose one of my Blade Skills; I would lose one Mind Blade Enhancement, but gain the Agile ability, so now I get Dex-to-attack and Dex-to-damage (although I could have chosen that enhancement anyway); and I lose another Blade Skill, but gain the ability to switch out a temporary Blade Skill as I like.

Nimble Blade gets you agile for free, i.e. not part of the whip's enhancement. (Plus agile is not on the list anyway.) You also get free Finesse to use with it.

The one downside is Piranha Strike is wasted on your whip (not a light weapon.)



It also occurs to me that I could take the Agile Maneuvers feat to sub Dex for Str in my CMB. As a plus, that's great for tripping. That said, it feels like a waste; my only two tricks in melee, really, would be Trip and Feint, and Feint isn't a Combat Maneuver in the traditional sense. Is it worth it to take Agile Maneuvers for Trip alone?

You already get Dex to CMB on a trip because you're using a whip. Agile Maneuvers is for the maneuvers that don't use your weapon like grapple.

[Red Fel]

Nimble Blade gets you agile for free, i.e. not part of the whip's enhancement. (Plus agile is not on the list anyway.) You also get free Finesse to use with it.

I'm confused. According to the list here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife#TOC-Enhanced-Mind-Blade), Agile is an option. (Scroll up a bit. It's listed there.)


The one downside is Piranha Strike is wasted on your whip (not a light weapon.)

Yeah, bit of a stinker.


You already get Dex to CMB on a trip because you're using a whip. Agile Maneuvers is for the maneuvers that don't use your weapon like grapple.

I... I don't see where that comes from. I thought that Whips, being a Trip weapon, simply meant that if you lose the Trip attempt you can drop it to avoid being tripped yourself. Then again, I'm still wrapping my head around the CMB system.

That said, seeing as Trip is the only Combat Maneuver I'll really be doing (again, Feint doesn't count) I'm not all that convinced that Agile Maneuvers is worthwhile. Unless I'm likely to fail most of those trip attempts as-is.

[Psyren]

I'm confused. According to the list here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife#TOC-Enhanced-Mind-Blade), Agile is an option. (Scroll up a bit. It's listed there.)

My bad - I started the guide prior to UPsi and some of the additions occasionally get by me when I work off memory.



I... I don't see where that comes from. I thought that Whips, being a Trip weapon, simply meant that if you lose the Trip attempt you can drop it to avoid being tripped yourself. Then again, I'm still wrapping my head around the CMB system.

Disarm, sunder and trip (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9ojt) are performed with your weapon, and so they get to use Dex for CMB if you have Weapon Finesse.

Others may apply if you can convince your DM you're using your weapon to do them. As an added boon, you get to add your weapon's enhancement bonus to the CMB check.

[Red Fel]

Disarm, sunder and trip (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9ojt) are performed with your weapon, and so they get to use Dex for CMB if you have Weapon Finesse.

Others may apply if you can convince your DM you're using your weapon to do them. As an added boon, you get to add your weapon's enhancement bonus to the CMB check.

Ahh... See, this was something I did not get. Like I said, I'm still familiarizing myself with the CMB system. So, basically, Weapon Finesse allows me to use Dex not only in place of Str on attacks, but also in place of Str on weapon-based CMB checks. Good to know!

Okay, here's where I am now.

Once more, with feeling.

CG Ifrit Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 10/ Soulknife +5, using the Gifted Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/gifted-blade) (lose Psychic Strike, gain PP and powers), and the Nimble Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/nimble-blade) (gain various Dex boosts, lose PA, two Blade Skills and a Blade Enhancement) archetypes.



Level
Class
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Features
Feats
PP/day
Powers Known


1
Soulknife 1
+1
+0
+2
+2
Weapon Finesse1, Blade Skill (Mind Blade Finesse)1, Form Mind Blade, Shape Mind Blade, Throw Mind Blade, Wild Talent
Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse1, Wild Talent2
22
0


2
Soulknife 2
+2
+0
+3
+3
Piranha Strike1

2
0


3
Soulknife 3
+3
+1
+3
+3
Enhanced Mind Blade +1
Improved Feint
2
1


4
Soulknife 4
+4
+1
+4
+4
Blade Skill (Alter Blade)

3
1


5
Soulknife 5
+5
+1
+4
+4
Enhanced Mind Blade +2, Quick Draw
Blistering Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/blistering-feint-combat-ifrit)
4
2


6
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 1
+5
+2
+5
+4
Fire Lash, Manipulate Blaze

4
2


7
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 2
+6
+2
+5
+5
Fire Adaptation (+4/10), Hand Afire 2d6
Firesight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/firesight-ifrit)
4
2


8
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 3
+7
+3
+6
+5
Bolt of Fire

4
2


9
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 4
+8
+3
+6
+5
Weapon Afire 2d6
Greater Feint
4
2


10
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 5
+8
+4
+7
+6
Nimbus

4
2


11
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 6
+9
+4
+7
+6
Firewalk, Leech Heat (2d6), Penetrating Fire
Psionic Meditation
4
2


12
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 7
+10
+5
+8
+6
Fire Adaptation (+8/20)

4
2


13
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 8
+11
+5
+8
+7
Hand Afire (4d6), Nimbus, Weapon Afire (4d6)
Psionic Weapon
4
2


14
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 9
+11
+6
+9
+7
Heat Death, Leech Heat (4d6)

4
2


15
Soulknife 5/ Pyrokineticist 10
+12
+6
+9
+7
Conflagration, Fire Soul
Greater Psionic Weapon
4
2


16
Soulknife 6/ Pyrokineticist 10
+13
+7
+10
+8
Blade Skill (Weapon Special)3

5
2


17
Soulknife 7/ Pyrokineticist 10
+14
+7
+10
+8
Agile Blade1
Speed of Thought
7
3


18
Soulknife 8/ Pyrokineticist 10
+15
+7
+11
+9
Combat Slide

9
3


19
Soulknife 9/ Pyrokineticist 10
+16
+8
+11
+9
Enhanced Mind Blade +3
Extra Blade Skill (Mental Power)
11
4


20
Soulknife 10/ Pyrokineticist 10
+17
+8
+12
+10
Adaptive Form1

13
4



1 Nimble Blade bonus feat or feature. Weapon Finesse replaces the class bonus feat, Mind Blade Finesse replaces medium armor and shield proficiency, Piranha Strike replaces a Blade Skill, Agile Blade replaces a Mind Blade Enhancement, and Adaptive Form replaces a Blade Skill.
2 Wild Talent is a Soulknife bonus feat that grants 2 PP. All subsequent increases in PP come from the Gifted Blade archetype.
3 Grants Trip. What, you thought this build was just about burning things?


Basically, I removed the Elemental Types because, with Adaptive Form, I can slot those in freely. Instead, I kept the stuff I knew I'd want on a regular basis - Combat Slide, Mental Power, etc.

Thoughts?

And as an aside, is Greater Feint worth it? Basically, where I am right now is that, thanks to Improved Feint + Blistering Feint, as a move action, I can feint someone in combat and deal my weapon's fire damage (which, by default, is all of it), rob them of their Dex against my next attack. With Greater Feint, they're robbed of Dex against everything until my next turn. Is that worth the feat?

[Psyren]

Be sure to get the Psionic Knack trait to boost your ML. Don't forget too that Gifted Blades can rotate their powers known every morning.

Feinting is meh. Yeah the free weapon damage thing sounds nice, and you'll eventually have Hustle to feint as a swift action, but without sneak attack or similar you're not really getting much benefit out of fooling them. Since you were targeting touch AC anyway you should have little trouble hitting them. Personally I would put the feats elsewhere.

[Red Fel]

Be sure to get the Psionic Knack trait to boost your ML. Don't forget too that Gifted Blades can rotate their powers known every morning.

Should I replace Reactionary or Expert Distractor? The added initiative is nice, but Expert Distractor is really quite helpful for locking down spellcasters, I think.


Feinting is meh. Yeah the free weapon damage thing sounds nice, and you'll eventually have Hustle to feint as a swift action, but without sneak attack or similar you're not really getting much benefit out of fooling them. Since you were targeting touch AC anyway you should have little trouble hitting them. Personally I would put the feats elsewhere.

The only real reason I went towards feinting in the first place was for Blistering Feint. Being able to feint while still dealing damage is pretty nice. But if you're saying that's not that great, it's actually a really good thing, because that frees up a whole lot of feats.

So, your position is that Blazing Feint isn't all that and a bag of crisps?

[Psyren]

So, your position is that Blazing Feint isn't all that and a bag of crisps?

It's more that weapon damage isn't all that and a bag of crisps. It's the Vital Strike problem all over again. In melee combat, most of your damage comes from a stat (generally Str or Dex) not from the weapon itself. The 1d8 + 8 (fully enhanced whip with +3 hilt), or 1d8 + (<8) + whatever other property (bane, vicious etc.) is not going to break the bank damage-wise at all, and it's worse since you only get it once per feint and most feints will be 1/turn.

So yeah - not particularly moist over feinting. Now, if you wanted to put in Cutthroat instead of GB and get some sneak attack, that might work well with a feinting strategy... of course, you lose Hustle at that point which hurts your ability to feint and then full attack.

[Red Fel]

It's more that weapon damage isn't all that and a bag of crisps. It's the Vital Strike problem all over again. In melee combat, most of your damage comes from a stat (generally Str or Dex) not from the weapon itself. The 1d8 + 8 (fully enhanced whip with +3 hilt), or 1d8 + (<8) + whatever other property (bane, vicious etc.) is not going to break the bank damage-wise at all, and it's worse since you only get it once per feint and most feints will be 1/turn.

So yeah - not particularly moist over feinting. Now, if you wanted to put in Cutthroat instead of GB and get some sneak attack, that might work well with a feinting strategy... of course, you lose Hustle at that point which hurts your ability to feint and then full attack.

Okay. So let's say I remove the Feint-focus altogether. That frees up four feats (Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Blistering Feint, Greater Feint). What should I do with them? I mean, I could just drop Extra Blade Skill into all of them, but that seems a bit narrow-focused. What would you suggest?

[Shinken]

Man, if you could get Smoking (+1 enhancement from Lords of Darkness, 3.0 FR book) on your flame whip...

[Psyren]

For your whip I would get Whip Mastery and (Greater) Serpent Lash, Split-Headed Lash is nice too but has are a lot of prereqs that may not be useful.

Aside from those, some metapsionics would be nice (particularly Extend, Hustle and Quicken Power) which means you'll probably want a Psicrystal and Psicrystal Containment, or at least Deep Focus.

[Red Fel]

For your whip I would get Whip Mastery and (Greater) Serpent Lash, Split-Headed Lash is nice too but has are a lot of prereqs that may not be useful.

Aside from those, some metapsionics would be nice (particularly Extend, Hustle and Quicken Power) which means you'll probably want a Psicrystal and Psicrystal Containment, or at least Deep Focus.

Okay, let's see.

1. Hustle is a 3rd-level Gifted Blade power; I only get up to 2nd-level powers. Or do I count as a higher-level Gifted Blade thanks to Psionic Knack? I thought that only increased ML, not actual class level.

2. Extend is... Useful, but hazardous. Even at 20, I'm going to have a very small pool of PP. Extend requires me to increase PP spent by two, and I'm not sure I can spare that.

3. Same problem with Quicken. Quickening a power will take up half of my daily PP, before adding in the cost of the power itself. (Although, I think that since I took Mental Power, I get 2 more PP... I should make sure that's correct in the next build iteration.)

4. Whip Mastery also requires Weapon Focus (Whip), but that's not terrible; I get +1 to attacks with the Lash and no longer provoke AoOs. (Does the Lash provoke AoOs? It doesn't say it doesn't, so I assume it does.)

5. Serpent Lash requires Finesse, which I have, good. And I'm proficient with my Lash, maybe that counts as "proficient in whip"? And that... Basically gets me Disarm/Trip Cleave and the ability to Reposition (which is something I still don't quite grasp). I guess it looks useful, I just... Don't know that I'll be swarmed by enemies and need to trip them all, I dunno. Seems situational.

6. Split-Headed Lash... Wow, that's actually pretty nice, but those prereqs are murder. But that raises an interesting question: The Fire Lash is a ranged touch attack. Emphasis on the ranged. Would I benefit from anything in the Point Blank Shot tree?

[Vhaidara]

IIRC, reposition is like a mini bull rush. You can only move them 5ft, but you don't have to charge and it can be in any direction (subject to specifics). Basically, you grab someone and move them, but without a grapple.

[IAmTehDave]

Okay, let's see.

1. Hustle is a 3rd-level Gifted Blade power; I only get up to 2nd-level powers. Or do I count as a higher-level Gifted Blade thanks to Psionic Knack? I thought that only increased ML, not actual class level.

2. Extend is... Useful, but hazardous. Even at 20, I'm going to have a very small pool of PP. Extend requires me to increase PP spent by two, and I'm not sure I can spare that.

3. Same problem with Quicken. Quickening a power will take up half of my daily PP, before adding in the cost of the power itself. (Although, I think that since I took Mental Power, I get 2 more PP... I should make sure that's correct in the next build iteration.)

4. Whip Mastery also requires Weapon Focus (Whip), but that's not terrible; I get +1 to attacks with the Lash and no longer provoke AoOs. (Does the Lash provoke AoOs? It doesn't say it doesn't, so I assume it does.)

5. Serpent Lash requires Finesse, which I have, good. And I'm proficient with my Lash, maybe that counts as "proficient in whip"? And that... Basically gets me Disarm/Trip Cleave and the ability to Reposition (which is something I still don't quite grasp). I guess it looks useful, I just... Don't know that I'll be swarmed by enemies and need to trip them all, I dunno. Seems situational.

6. Split-Headed Lash... Wow, that's actually pretty nice, but those prereqs are murder. But that raises an interesting question: The Fire Lash is a ranged touch attack. Emphasis on the ranged. Would I benefit from anything in the Point Blank Shot tree?

1: Unless you took 11 SK/9 PK. But then you wouldn't get Conflagrate. Which would make King Arthur sad.
2-3: Yeah metapsionics might not be in your cards here with a gifted blade. The Psionic Knack would allow you to be considered 2 ML higher for bonus power points, but you're still stuck with a limited pool.
4: Your lash is treated for all mechanical intents and purposes as a whip. Including proficiency, and that you provoke AoOs with it.
5: Again, the lash is a whip. Reposition is a weird combat maneuver that PF added, but basically you can use the whip to pull enemies closer to you a la Scorpion "Get Over Here!". (And if you don't yell that every time you use it, I will be disappointed)
6: I can only find the feat on a DSP alpha testing post thing, but from that Ithink the pre-reqs are too wonky. No ranged combat feat works with the Whip because they all explicitly call out "ranged weapons" and the whip is a Melee Weapon. The Lash is (mechanically) mostly a whip, so it's a melee weapon that makes ranged touch attacks. Hooray for rules dysfunction!

[Psyren]

Okay, let's see.

1. Hustle is a 3rd-level Gifted Blade power; I only get up to 2nd-level powers. Or do I count as a higher-level Gifted Blade thanks to Psionic Knack? I thought that only increased ML, not actual class level.

That's what EK is for. Get the Psywar version; it's too useful for a gish to skip.



2. Extend is... Useful, but hazardous. Even at 20, I'm going to have a very small pool of PP. Extend requires me to increase PP spent by two, and I'm not sure I can spare that.

Long-lasting buffs are important. , Detect Hostile Intent, Thicken Skin, Defy Gravity, Synesthete - all are good candidates for extension. If you can't afford it, get more PP (cognizance crystals, torc of PP etc.)



3. Same problem with Quicken. Quickening a power will take up half of my daily PP, before adding in the cost of the power itself. (Although, I think that since I took Mental Power, I get 2 more PP... I should make sure that's correct in the next build iteration.)

You can always just focus on swift action powers instead of quickening but quicken is useful all the same, as is hustling.



4. Whip Mastery also requires Weapon Focus (Whip), but that's not terrible; I get +1 to attacks with the Lash and no longer provoke AoOs. (Does the Lash provoke AoOs? It doesn't say it doesn't, so I assume it does.)

Yes, and forming it does too (PLA.) It won't matter most of the time due to your reach, but if you get into melee with something that has Step Up, or you get surrounded/cornered, you may be glad you have it.



5. Serpent Lash requires Finesse, which I have, good. And I'm proficient with my Lash, maybe that counts as "proficient in whip"? And that... Basically gets me Disarm/Trip Cleave and the ability to Reposition (which is something I still don't quite grasp). I guess it looks useful, I just... Don't know that I'll be swarmed by enemies and need to trip them all, I dunno. Seems situational.

You get to trip two enemies with one standard action, what do you mean "situational?" :smallconfused: Do you plan on all your fights being one-on-one?

Pyros get free whip proficiency.



6. Split-Headed Lash... Wow, that's actually pretty nice, but those prereqs are murder. But that raises an interesting question: The Fire Lash is a ranged touch attack. Emphasis on the ranged. Would I benefit from anything in the Point Blank Shot tree?

I'd assume so or they wouldn't have put those feats as prereqs.

[Red Fel]

IIRC, reposition is like a mini bull rush. You can only move them 5ft, but you don't have to charge and it can be in any direction (subject to specifics). Basically, you grab someone and move them, but without a grapple.

Yeah, that makes sense. Still, it doesn't sound like a mechanic I'd use much. Although, by combining Manipulate Blaze with Firesight, I could attack an enemy through a cloud of obscuring smoke and fire, pull them through said cloud a la Scorpion while their allies mull about blindly on the other side, and let the party gang up on them on this side.

That could be fun.


1: Unless you took 11 SK/9 PK. But then you wouldn't get Conflagrate. Which would make King Arthur sad.
2-3: Yeah metapsionics might not be in your cards here with a gifted blade. The Psionic Knack would allow you to be considered 2 ML higher for bonus power points, but you're still stuck with a limited pool.
4: Your lash is treated for all mechanical intents and purposes as a whip. Including proficiency, and that you provoke AoOs with it.
5: Again, the lash is a whip. Reposition is a weird combat maneuver that PF added, but basically you can use the whip to pull enemies closer to you a la Scorpion "Get Over Here!". (And if you don't yell that every time you use it, I will be disappointed)
6: I can only find the feat on a DSP alpha testing post thing, but from that Ithink the pre-reqs are too wonky. No ranged combat feat works with the Whip because they all explicitly call out "ranged weapons" and the whip is a Melee Weapon. The Lash is (mechanically) mostly a whip, so it's a melee weapon that makes ranged touch attacks. Hooray for rules dysfunction!

1. Yes it would.

2-4. Yup, and see below.

5. Hey, I just said that! :smallbiggrin:

6. Yeah, oddly enough, it's a melee weapon that deals damage as a ranged touch attack. I don't argue, I say thank you for having to target touch AC, and then I burninate.


That's what EK is for. Get the Psywar version; it's too useful for a gish to skip.

Huh. Okay, Expanded Knowledge, there's one of my four feats right there, but it gets me Hustle, which I acknowledge is sweet. And... Wait a minute.

Hustle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/h/hustle) has a duration of Instantaneous. And Extend Power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/extend-power-metapsionic) has this rather unfortunate language:

A power with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat.
So, and Extended Hustle is... Nothing, actually. Expanded Knowledge is certainly awesome, and Hustle is great (although it costs 5 PP, which is basically 1/3 of my day right there), but I'm not sure that I can, by RAW, Extend a Hustle.


Long-lasting buffs are important. , Detect Hostile Intent, Thicken Skin, Defy Gravity, Synesthete - all are good candidates for extension. If you can't afford it, get more PP (cognizance crystals, torc of PP etc.)

On the other hand, some of these buffs I can extend. The four you mention are all Gifted Blade powers, all with duration 10 min/level, increased by that Knack trait, and doubled by Extend. Thicken Skin and Synesthete can be Extended for a total of 3 PP each, DHI and Defy Gravity (no Wicked jokes) for 5 PP. Not bad.


You can always just focus on swift action powers instead of quickening but quicken is useful all the same, as is hustling.

True. But it's just a bit too expensive. This build starts at a Wis penalty. I can make do with powers that don't require saves, if I treat them as slottable per-day abilities instead of an actual arsenal of powers. When I start leaning on them too hard, they'll collapse beneath me; I just don't have the stats to back them up.


Yes, and forming it does too (PLA.) It won't matter most of the time due to your reach, but if you get into melee with something that has Step Up, or you get surrounded/cornered, you may be glad you have it.

Yeah, Whip Mastery sounds like a potentially Very Good Idea.


You get to trip two enemies with one standard action, what do you mean "situational?" :smallconfused: Do you plan on all your fights being one-on-one?

It'd be nice. :smallbiggrin: But yeah, I could see tripping two enemies as useful, assuming I allowed myself to get ganged-up-on.


Pyros get free whip proficiency.

Gah! You're right, I forgot that bit. Good call!


I'd assume so or they wouldn't have put those feats as prereqs.

Okay. So let's see where we are.

1. I might want Expanded Knowledge. Hustle is great.

2. I don't see myself taking Quicken Power, but Extend Power is a distinct possibility.

3. Whip Mastery is great.

4. Serpent Lash is really great.

5. I don't see myself taking Split-Headed Lash, unless I really wanted to focus on it - and I don't think that I do. And since I'm not going that direction, I'm probably not going to delve into Point-Blank Shot either.

I meet all the prereqs of EK, Extend and Serpent upfront, awesome. (Well, EK once I have the right ML, and Serpent once I hit Pyro, but still.) Whip Mastery, however, requires Weapon Focus (whip). So that's five feats, and I have four slots.

Of the five of them, I'll be honest, EK has the least appeal for me. Extend can benefit any of my buffs. Whip Mastery means I'm never subjecting myself to an AoO by just attacking. And Serpent Lash means I can trip like crazy. But EK just means I can add Hustle to my powers known, assuming I want it to occupy one of my precious slots/day, and want to spend my rare PP/day on it. It converts a swift action into a move action, and while extra actions are useful, what do I do with a move action? Other than move (and provoke AoOs), I mean.

[Psyren]

What? I never said you should Extend Hustle, where are you getting that from? :smallconfused:

Extend is for the 10 min./level buffs, like the 4 I listed (to stretch them across at least two fights) and the hour/level buffs (to keep them up all day before you hit ML 8 or so.)


It converts a swift action into a move action, and while extra actions are useful, what do I do with a move action?

You're kidding right? What can't you do with more actions?

1) "Pounce" (i.e. move up to your speed and full attack.)
2) Move and Coup-de-grace.
3) Move around obstacle (e.g. allies or terrain) and charge.
4) Regain focus as a swift action.
5) Triple-move or Withdraw-move.
6) Stand from prone and full-attack.

[Red Fel]

What? I never said you should Extend Hustle, where are you getting that from? :smallconfused:

Extend is for the 10 min./level buffs, like the 4 I listed (to stretch them across at least two fights) and the hour/level buffs (to keep them up all day before you hit ML 8 or so.)

... Yeeeeeah, that would be me misreading a post again. (You were talking about "Extend, Hustle, and Quicken," and I read it as "Extended Hustle, and Quicken." Because eyes.) My bad.


You're kidding right? What can't you do with more actions?

1) "Pounce" (i.e. move up to your speed and full attack.)
2) Move and Coup-de-grace.
3) Move around obstacle (e.g. allies or terrain) and charge.
4) Regain focus as a swift action.
5) Triple-move or Withdraw-move.
6) Stand from prone and full-attack.

See, this is why I ask the question - because, off of the top of my head, I don't tend to think of these things. This is why this is helpful for me.

Okay, so clearly, Hustle is an awesome use of a power, possibly an awesome use of a feat. That still leaves me with five feats supposed to occupy four slots.

I suppose, in theory, I could drop Firesight to open a fifth slot, but I can't help but feel it'd be useful (particularly for that Scorpion-style combo mentioned above).

[Red Fel]

Alright. I've been looking back over feat selections, to see if I can't shuffle things around a bit and get some better results.

If I were to drop the Feint chain, and take Expanded Knowledge, Extend Power, Serpent Lash, Weapon Focus (Whip), and Whip Mastery, I'd need five slots. I have four.

Psionic Meditation has to stay. It's practically a feat tax. I could drop Firesight, it's more style than substance. I could even drop Speed of Thought.

And then I look at Psionic Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon. +1 damage, expend for +2d6, or +2/+4d6. The latter is definitely nice. So I look over the rest of my abilities to see what I can get out of expending my focus. Well, Psychic Strike got traded away. Various Blade Skills can be slotted in; Fire Blade deals bonus damage, Ice Blade has its little slow effect, Thunder Blade staggers, and so forth. Situational but effective. Pyro gets me that disappointing Heat Death ability. (Disappointing because Fort save.) I'm not sure if PW/GPW are worth the effort, although the added damage of GPW is definitely appealing.

So let's take a step back. Let's assume I haven't put in any feats except the following, in no particular order: Expanded Knowledge, Extend Power, Psychic Meditation, Serpent Lash, Weapon Focus (Whip), and Whip Mastery. That's six feats; I get a four more. Any suggestions? Is Greater Serpent Lash worth the extra look? Should I stay with PW/GPW? Keep Firesight or Extra Blade Skill? Or just dive into something new entirely?