Pathfinder Arcane Archer Entry [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

grarrrg

2014-07-01, 09:58 PM

What is the best class combination to enter Arcane archer?

What's your end goal?
An "Archer with some Magic" will be quite a bit different than a "Wizard with a backup plan".

You need 6 Bab, 3 feats, and 1st level Arcane spells to enter, so entry is definitely biased towards the Marital side of things.
Ranger or Fighter are probably best as they both have bonus feats as class features and Full Bab. Throw on a level of Wizard or Sorcerer and you're good to go by level 8.

Although it may be fun to go WIS-MAD with Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer)/Empyreal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) Sorcerer

Snowbluff

2014-07-01, 10:22 PM

You can enter EK at level 3 (2 if you ignore the RHD FAQ). Aasimar (or Diviner Wizard) Wizard1/Fighter1/EK5 is 7 levels as opposed to 9.

avr

2014-07-02, 03:48 AM

Spore

2014-07-02, 04:38 AM

I think ranger 6/wizard 1 was the intended choice. For Pathfinder Magus 8 WOULD work but who would advance magus casting and give up on every other feature of the class.

SiuiS

2014-07-02, 04:42 AM

Worth noting that Arcane Archer can advance non-arcane casting if you choose. Take a race with a SLA which comes out as 1st level arcane (Elf with the Envoy trait works) and you could do Heavens Oracle 8 / Arcane Archer 2 to land your scary color sprays from 1100' away.

Wait, what? Isn't the biggest breaking point of arcane archer that it doesn't advance jack all? DMG p. 176, you get full BaB, good physical saves, enchanted arrows, and Imbuement effects. Unless pathfinder made an actual useful class out of them, this isnt true at all.

E: oop, there it is. I made sure to look for a [Pathfinder] tag before posting, and couldn't find one. Looks like it doesn't appear anywhere convenient on the actual reply formation page. Sorry.

Snowbluff

2014-07-02, 04:49 AM

Eldariel

2014-07-02, 06:22 AM

I think ranger 6/wizard 1 was the intended choice. For Pathfinder Magus 8 WOULD work but who would advance magus casting and give up on every other feature of the class.

This wastes the best part of Arcane Archer, Imbue Arrow though. You want some high level spells for that effect. As such, Ranger 1/Wizard 5/EK 3 would be at least my personal preference.

Psyren

2014-07-02, 08:17 AM

This wastes the best part of Arcane Archer, Imbue Arrow though. You want some high level spells for that effect. As such, Ranger 1/Wizard 5/EK 3 would be at least my personal preference.

Agreed - though I recommend Lore Warden Fighter 1 over Ranger 1 because then you get a much-needed bonus feat. You also get an extra Fighter level to go with EK's diverse training ability; this will make you eligible for Weapon Specialization once you enter AA, which in turn gets you the coveted Point Blank Master.

grarrrg

2014-07-02, 10:46 AM

Worth noting that Arcane Archer can advance non-arcane casting if you choose. Take a race with a SLA which comes out as 1st level arcane (Elf with the Envoy trait works) and you could do Heavens Oracle 8 / Arcane Archer 2 to land your scary color sprays from 1100' away.

Still kind of works, just not the way you think.
Take a 'normal' Arcane Archer build and dip 1 level of Oracle of Heavens.
There's a FAQ that says anything that affects your spellcasting affects ALL of your spellcasting, unless it specifically says otherwise (I'd link the FAQ but don't have time to look it up right now).

The main issue is that you now need good CHA, so Sorcerer becomes the entry method, with delayed spellcasting and all (unless you get great rolls/point-buy).

Eldariel

2014-07-02, 11:12 AM

Agreed - though I recommend Lore Warden Fighter 1 over Ranger 1 because then you get a much-needed bonus feat. You also get an extra Fighter level to go with EK's diverse training ability; this will make you eligible for Weapon Specialization once you enter AA, which in turn gets you the coveted Point Blank Master.

I don't really rate feats as highly in PF as in 3.5; e.g. PBM is nice but in my experience it's unnecessary most of the time; worst comes to worst, you can cast something but often you can maneuver with 5' steps, Tumble and Move Actions (and Quickened spells later) to get where you want to be and cast/shoot freely anyways. I rather prefer the wider skill list, access to e.g. Trapfinding, some other skills (Sense Motive from Witchguard or some such) or the minor bonuses from Guide or Freebooter that can be activated with off-actions, and the access to Ranger wands. Ability to use the Wands of Cure Light Wounds gives you nice self-sufficiency and there are few other useful Ranger-spells that don't appear on Wizard-list as well. But of course, the difference is fairly small and you can argue for either side.

Psyren

2014-07-02, 11:36 AM

Eldariel

2014-07-02, 11:39 AM

Psyren

2014-07-02, 11:46 AM

Oh, there's a trapfinding Trait? It's off-topic, but which one? I've been looking for one for certain PFS-character of mine for a while now.

Here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder)

Be warned though - it's a campaign trait, and I'm not sure on the PFS legality of those.

Eldariel

2014-07-02, 12:18 PM

Here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder)

Be warned though - it's a campaign trait, and I'm not sure on the PFS legality of those.

Ah, pity, it's probably not PFS legal. Well, whatever, at least it's good to know of its existence for generic building purposes.

EDIT: Nope, Mummy's Mask in its entirety is on this list (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources)! Cool. So now I can actually pick up Extra Traits for that thingy and become a decent trapfinder. Being able to do everything yourself sure makes life easier.

EDIT#2: People of the Sands actually seems to carry regional requirements. Hm, I'll have to find someone with the book.

Psyren

2014-07-02, 12:26 PM

Mummy's Mask is on the list but again, I think there are special rules about campaign traits in PFS (e.g. it might only be available if you're actually running Mummy's Mask, or there may be some RP requirement) so I suggest you double check on that before haring off.

Snowbluff

2014-07-02, 12:55 PM

For melee I'd agree, but PF has much better archery feats than 3.5 does - like Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, the aforementioned Point Blank Master, Arcane Strike, Elven Accuracy, plus you will want the normal suite of regular feats like Improved Init, Combat Reflexes, Extra Traits (which can also get you Trapfinding, fyi) etc.

Compare to being a savvy bow user (use cold iron or silvered arrows), Dead eye (doesn't lower accuracy), Arrow Mind (doesn't take your feat slot), Holy Warrior (or Knowledge Devotion), Seeking Weapon (seriously, WTH). I've been doing archery for a while. :smalltongue:

3.5 feats are just better. How you get better at archer in PF is spells. Saddle Surge. Abundant Ammunition + Named bullet. Litany of Righteousness.

Yanisa

2014-07-02, 01:08 PM

Nope, Mummy's Mask in its entirety is on this list (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources)! Cool. So now I can actually pick up Extra Traits for that thingy and become a decent trapfinder. Being able to do everything yourself sure makes life easier.

Where did you get that idea? :smallconfused:

It lists a specific couple of pages that are legal in PFS, and non of those include traits as far as I can see. I also see no mention of it in the "rules for running this Adventure Path". You can play the adventure path PFS style, but I don't think that makes the traits legal. (But I can be wrong, I never ran an adventure path in PFS style.)

Eldariel

2014-07-02, 01:15 PM

Where did you get that idea? :smallconfused:

It lists a specific couple of pages that are legal in PFS, and non of those include traits as far as I can see. I also see no mention of it in the "rules for running this Adventure Path". You can play the adventure path PFS style, but I don't think that makes the traits legal. (But I can be wrong, I never ran an adventure path in PFS style.)

I misread the site; I just took this part:

"Mummy's Mask

Mummy's Mask is sanctioned for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play."

That said, the trait is from Pathfinder Player Companion: People of the Sands anyways, and that has a separate entry. I'd need to get my hands on the book to figure out which limitations this trait falls under but it stands to reason this would be on the listed trait pages (usually all options are allowed from each book listed, except those specifically excluded in the listing).

StreamOfTheSky

2014-07-02, 01:41 PM

I don't really rate feats as highly in PF as in 3.5; e.g. PBM is nice but in my experience it's unnecessary most of the time; worst comes to worst, you can cast something but often you can maneuver with 5' steps, Tumble and Move Actions (and Quickened spells later) to get where you want to be and cast/shoot freely anyways.

I think the existence of the Step Up feat alone makes PBM kind of essential. A level 1 feat that automatically and w/o any sort of counter-ability shuts down being able to 5 ft step away. Casters have concentration and thus don't care (as much), but it hurts archers (every attack provokes!) and reach weapon users (can't even swing at the guy!) real, real bad.

And tumble is a suicide pact in pathfinder.

Psyren

2014-07-02, 01:46 PM

Compare to being a savvy bow user (use cold iron or silvered arrows), Dead eye (doesn't lower accuracy), Arrow Mind (doesn't take your feat slot), Holy Warrior (or Knowledge Devotion), Seeking Weapon (seriously, WTH). I've been doing archery for a while. :smalltongue:

3.5 feats are just better.

Not everything you listed is even a feat. Of the few that are, two lock you into a very specific concept (worshiping a deity who offers Knowledge and War) while the last is from Dragon Magazine and also keeps you firmly in charging distance. One is also a reserve feat which ties down your resources. I'm not buying that these are "better." If you meet all these conditions they may have a numerical advantage, but that won't necessarily translate to more damage in practice when the PF archer has no fluff or range restrictions.

Yanisa

2014-07-02, 02:04 PM

I misread the site; I just took this part:

"Mummy's Mask

Mummy's Mask is sanctioned for use in Pathfinder Society Organized Play."

That said, the trait is from Pathfinder Player Companion: People of the Sands anyways, and that has a separate entry. I'd need to get my hands on the book to figure out which limitations this trait falls under but it stands to reason this would be on the listed trait pages (usually all options are allowed from each book listed, except those specifically excluded in the listing).

Traits: all traits on pages 8-23, are legal as long as the ethnicity or regional requirement is met. The campaign traits on pages 30-31 are not legal for play.

And double checking my copy of people of the sands, the trait is on page 31 and is indeed a campaign trait. Sorry. :smallfrown:

Ugh I keep bringing bad news, and being offtopic here, I be quiet.

Eldariel

2014-07-02, 02:18 PM

I think the existence of the Step Up feat alone makes PBM kind of essential. A level 1 feat that automatically and w/o any sort of counter-ability shuts down being able to 5 ft step away. Casters have concentration and thus don't care (as much), but it hurts archers (every attack provokes!) and reach weapon users (can't even swing at the guy!) real, real bad.

And tumble is a suicide pact in pathfinder.

Tumble works situationally just fine. You can generally get away with it against most Humanoid-sized enemies and some slightly bigger ones; it's just a matter of knowing when to use it and when not to (and again, since you're a caster you can get full contribution from standard action just fine; you don't need full-round action like most archers). There's no reason to rely on it but it's a nice tool to have available.

And yeah, Step Up is annoying but when talking about an Arcane Archer, I'd expect more Imbued Arrows and spells than arrow full attacks so it's not like you're FUBAR'd when you don't want to attack (and it's not like AoO prevents attacking in the first place; it's just little extra damage, though they can of course try Disarm or Trip or whatever).

And double checking my copy of people of the sands, the trait is on page 31 and is indeed a campaign trait. Sorry. :smallfrown:

Ugh I keep bringing bad news, and being offtopic here, I be quiet.

Ah, thanks. That's good to know after all. Alas.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-07-02, 02:27 PM

...though they can of course try Disarm or Trip or whatever).

Using the AoO from you shooting your bow to trip you would be especially bad. Not only would you have to deal with all the usual crap from being prone and needing to get up. You also can't shoot a bow while prone, so since the AoO disrupted your already-begun action of firing the bow....you just lost at best a standard action, at worst a full round (full attack) action, and basically lost your turn. On top of the usual penalties for prone.

I suppose Disarm is nasty for similar reasons, though easier to protect against with weapon cords, and the fact that disarm is so niche that it's just not invested in often.

Snowbluff

2014-07-02, 02:39 PM

Not everything you listed is even a feat.

The things that are a waste of a feat are replaced with things that are not feats. Most DR is avoidable by taking advantage of the bow's natural strengths (arrows can provide bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing varieties, as well as combinations of enchantments and materials) so clustered shots is often useless. Overall, you're better off with a combination of 3.5 feats than PF ones. Spending feats on a bunch of these things is a waste of valuable feat slots.

As for Dead Eye versus Deadly Aim, the range penalties combined with the Deadly Aim Penalties means using it as a range isn't always savvy. Additionally, as many opponents of range fighting styles would be kind to remind us, most fighting takes place within close quarters, anyway.

but that won't necessarily translate to more damage in practice when the PF archer has no fluff or range restrictions.
In short, your inaccurate assertion is based on a flimsy premise with a single feat.

For Devotions and Reserves? The best bow user is a cleric in both editions, and those options provide much larger bonuses to DPR. Deal. :smalltongue:

Psyren

2014-07-02, 02:59 PM

The things that are a waste of a feat are replaced with things that are not feats. Most DR is avoidable by taking advantage of the bow's natural strengths (arrows can provide bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing varieties, as well as combinations of enchantments and materials) so clustered shots is often useless. Overall, you're better off with a combination of 3.5 feats than PF ones. Spending feats on a bunch of these things is a waste of valuable feat slots.

Retraining is a thing that exists. Clustered Shots gets you past DR at the levels where +4 or +5 bows/arrows are out of your budget.

As for Dead Eye versus Deadly Aim, the range penalties combined with the Deadly Aim Penalties means using it as a range isn't always savvy.

You're a gish, raising to-hit is easy as pie. Staying far from attackers and getting more attacks is the important thing.

Additionally, as many opponents of range fighting styles would be kind to remind us, most fighting takes place within close quarters, anyway.

Sure but your archery feats shouldn't encourage you to stand around in walking distance to get the full benefit.

In short, your inaccurate assertion is based on a flimsy premise with a single feat.

See above.

For Devotions and Reserves? The best bow user is a cleric in both editions, and those options provide much larger bonuses to DPR. Deal. :smalltongue:

This is an arcane archer thread. Deal. :smalltongue:

Snowbluff

2014-07-02, 03:13 PM

Retraining is a thing that exists. Clustered Shots gets you past DR at the levels where +4 or +5 bows/arrows are out of your budget.
+4 or +5 bows might as well not exist. Getting around DR is easier than that.

Sure but your archery feats shouldn't encourage you to stand around in walking distance to get the full benefit.
This is a conflict in ideals of design philosophy. As far as I am concerned, you're in good shape hitting foes at a range. When you are in close quarters, this feat helps you compete with melee fighters.

Deadly Aim is the worst feat in PF not for how effective it is (it's good), but because of the situation that birthed it. People were motivated to make this feat a thing, but not motivated enough to find equivalent abilities.

This is an arcane archer thread. Deal. :smalltongue:
Much to my dismay, we have oracle posts. I am not even being sarcastic here. Can someone find that FAQ or whatever that lets AA work with Divine?

Socksy

2014-07-02, 03:48 PM

Much to my dismay, we have oracle posts. I am not even being sarcastic here. Can someone find that FAQ or whatever that lets AA work with Divine?

Basically, while Arcane Archer does only advance Arcane spellcasting classes, you're allowed to stick any spell onto the arrow, it doesn't have to be Arcane. A bit silly given the PrC name, but... I'm guilty of the Oracle/Arcane Archer combo, so I can't really talk about it.:smalltongue::smalltongue::smallwink:

At the indicated levels, an arcane archer gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.

At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow.

Emphasis mine c:

Snowbluff

2014-07-02, 03:59 PM

That I got. I don't know why I expected something less... "lossy?"

Socksy

2014-07-02, 04:15 PM

Loss-y? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

I think some people are also saying Heavens Oracles count as Arcane spellcasters because they can cast Arcane spells (just not very many of them)

Psyren

2014-07-02, 04:19 PM

+4 or +5 bows might as well not exist. Getting around DR is easier than that.

Indeed there's plenty of ways (GMW, adamantine arrows etc.) And once you have access to them is a fine time to retrain.

This is a conflict in ideals of design philosophy. As far as I am concerned, you're in good shape hitting foes at a range. When you are in close quarters, this feat helps you compete with melee fighters.

I'd rather just do higher damage at all ranges. You can use DA within 30 ft. too if you want.

Loss-y? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

You lose a bunch of divine CL because AA doesn't advance it, you probably need a martial class for the BAB requirement and you probably need at least one arcane class for their spell requirements. You can get around the latter with a racial SLA but then you're giving up the 3rd-level SLA for early EK entry.

AvatarVecna

2014-07-02, 04:54 PM

@Snowbluff

The advantage Pathfinder has over 3.5 isn't the options being better: it's the superior resources. Magic weapons/ammunition don't cost more or less in either game, but Pathfinder characters have more money. Spells/item creation in Pathfinder don't cost XP, making mages more willing to spend the resources casting/making them. Pathfinder characters have more feats, more money, more class features, and this superior pool of resources allows more options per character, which can stack up higher than just about any 3.5 broken-ness.

Pathfinder races have higher stats and more racial features than in 3.5; also, the favored class system isn't screwed up in Pathfinder. Alignment restrictions are less restrictive and have more ways around them. Each race has alternate racial features for if something isn't to your liking.

Pathfinder feats don't require you to shoehorn b.s. into your character background (see previous posters complaints about that).

Pathfinder characters gets traits automatically, instead or requiring the DM to allow them.

Let's compare Fighters: in 3.5, a Fighter 20 gets 20 BAB, d10 HD, 7 regular feats, 11 Fighter bonus feats, and 760000 gp. In Pathfinder, a Fighter 20 gets 10 regular feats, 11 Fighter bonus feats, Armor Training, Weapon Training, Weapon Mastery, and 880000 gp. This isn't even getting into ACFs/archetypes.

Let's compare rangers: Ranger 20 in 3.5 gets 20 BAB, d8 HD, 7 regular feats, Track, Endurance, three set bonus feats depending on which of the two fighting styles they chose, and 760000 gp. Pathfinder Ranger 20 gets 20 BAB, d10 HD, 10 regular feats, Endurance, a class ability making the ranger a better tracker than the 3.5 ranger, 5 combat style feats that you choose from the list available to the fighting style you chose from 5 different fighting styles available, the Quarry class feature, the Master Hunter class feature, and 880000 gp. Once again, this doesn't even touch on ACFs or archetypes.

Pathfinder Arcane Archer is better than 3.5 Arcane Archer.

Snowbluff

2014-07-02, 05:16 PM

I don't have to point out how wrong that all it. Quantity != quality. 3.5 is just loaded with options, many of them much more useful or interesting than PF options. They also maintain a much better sense of internal compatibility (See Shadow Pounce versus the PF equivalent). 3.5 is a builder's game. PF is a game built for you. Ranger isn't an optimal archer in any sense, considering Clerics and Samsaran.

As for PF arcane archer, that depends. I consider them equivalent, because the AA is only 2 levels long either way. 3.5 AA, however, only uses a standard action, regardless of the spell you cast. PF AA uses the spell's casting time, but the options for swift/immediate spells are very few. You have emergency force sphere, and that's about it.

avr

2014-07-03, 12:53 PM

It has to be an arcane class.
Check d20pfsrd, the prd, or archivesofnethys - it advances '+1 level of existing class' under spells per day without specifying arcane or divine. Compare to Eldritch Knight.

Snowbluff

2014-07-03, 12:55 PM

Check d20pfsrd, the prd, or archivesofnethys - it advances '+1 level of existing class' under spells per day without specifying arcane or divine. Compare to Eldritch Knight.

Text trumps table, right?

At the indicated levels, an arcane archer gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an arcane archer, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day

I mean, it'd be cool if it worked, I guess.

Psyren

2014-07-03, 12:57 PM

Check d20pfsrd, the prd, or archivesofnethys - it advances '+1 level of existing class' under spells per day without specifying arcane or divine. Compare to Eldritch Knight.

No, the table is just a summary. The text says:

"At the indicated levels, an arcane archer gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class."

EDIT: Ninja'd

avr

2014-07-03, 02:20 PM

You're right, my bad.

AvatarVecna

2014-07-04, 04:15 PM

When you're playing a numbers game, like weapon combat, yes, quantity trumps quality; specifically, PF's higher combat quantities trump the lower 3.5 quantities, no matter how the builds arrived at those numbers.

If Build A gets more feats, more money, and more options than Build B, and Build A's options are only slightly less broken than Build B's (and 3.5 didn't really have super-broken archer options), then Build A is superior; Pathfinder characters tend to have higher attack bonuses, higher damage bonuses, higher HP, higher AC, and (in the case of projectile weapons) more special ammo options.

Also, as I've mentioned in another thread, if you have to use spellcasters to trump a build with no spellcasting, it's safe to say that the build is effective.

3.5 is far more broken, particularly for spellcasters, than PF is; that can't be denied. 3.5 is better for building totally cheesy characters, while Pathfinder gives classes more, and more interesting, options. PF has issues (tons of issues) but archery isn't the thing they're doing worse than 3.5 did, and the Arcane Archer isn't worse than the 3.5 version. 3.5 is better for breaking spellcasting, or epic games, and the wider selection of PrCs/feats/items available means more broken options; for some characters, this makes them super-cheese; for others, it just means they can catch up a little bit. For instance, here we are, arguing about archers and arcane archers, and how effective they are in 3.5 vs. PF, when the 3.5 Hulking Hurler outstrips them both without even trying.\\

Bottom-line: in 3.5, you can make just about anything you can imagine, but getting to your idea is going to take a lot of questionable RAI and cheese for more out-of-the-box concepts. PF, having less support than 3.5, can't quite achieve ANY character concept, but can achieve most, and will take less work to pull off. Both systems have advantages, both systems have disadvantages.