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Calin
2007-02-26, 03:33 PM
Ok, my little gaming group (a former 2.0 group with a lot of those old prejudices) has decided to make a new campaign, new DM, cleaning up a lot of the old "house" rules and going "strict" 3.5 (at least initially). Of course, collectively having at least average intelligence (complete with the -1 penalty) a lower than average charisma (made worse by imbibing various spirits) we've renewed some old...discussions. Thus, I think I'll be appealing to the collective wisdom of this board for a little sage guidance (Bears with Lasers, please step up).

Here's a current one. A magic domain cleric, use magic device, arcane scrolls and wands. Can anyone explain to us how/when/why this cleric can use something like a 1st level (spell) wizard scroll or a 3rd level (spell) wand? The inconsistent terminology in the books has our group of "experts" (*ahem*...our two "rules lawyers") deadlocked.

(Note: I'm not including the framework of their debates on purpose so as to not unduly influence the responses)

Thanks in advance.

Dragonmuncher
2007-02-26, 03:44 PM
Granted Power

Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion) or spell trigger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger) activation as a wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) of one-half your cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.

Seems simple enough- you treat the cleric as a wizard of half the level when he uses these objects. So arcane wands (which are spell trigger) are no problem- wizards have all arcane spells on their spell list already.

Spell completion is the same, except for

To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake.

So the half-level thing might be a problem, although I can't for the life of me remember the mechanics for "making a mistake."

(to clarify: a 1st level cleric with Magic Domain would have no trouble using a 1st level scroll, or a wand)

Zherog
2007-02-26, 03:47 PM
Magic Domain

Let's start with a quick quote of the ability of the domain, so we're all sure we're on the same page.


Granted powers: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.

Our example character is a first level cleric; one of his domains is Magic. We don't care what the other one is.

Wand: If the spell in the wand is on either the cleric list or the wizard list, our cleric can activate it. No check is necessary.

Scroll: If the caster level of the scroll is 1 (and the spell is a cleric or wizard spell, and also assuming our cleric has already deciphered the scroll), our cleric can activate it without a problem. Otherwise, we need to check out the rules for activating a scroll to see exactly what to do:


To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
* The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.

If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

So - the Magic domain helps us meet the first two; assuming our cleric has an Int of at least 11, he'll have no problems activating a scroll with a caster level of 1.

If the scroll's caster level is higher, however, our cleric needs to make a caster level check: d20 plus his caster level (1 in our example). The DC is the caster level of the scroll + 1. If he makes that check, he's fine and dandy.

(If you need assistance understanding how to decipher a scroll (mentioned above) say the word, and we can discuss that too)

Use Magic Device

Again, some rules quotes to start off:



[code]
Use a scroll 20 + caster level
Use a wand 20

So, taking each of them:

Wand: Anybody with at least one rank in Use Magic Device can attempt to activate a wand; doing so is a DC of 20.

Scroll: Similarly, anybody with at least one rank can attempt to activate a scroll. The DC is 20 + the caster level of the scroll.

Hope that helps...

MrNexx
2007-02-26, 03:48 PM
Ok, essentially, the Cleric can use ANY wizard/sorcerer wand at ANY time, without restriction. Even if he only gets 1 level in cleric. If it is on your spell list, you can use a wand or staff of the spell. It is spell trigger. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger)

Scrolls are a little more complicated. Your wizard level for casting from a scroll is one-half your cleric level (minimum 1)... not your cleric spellcasting level, but your cleric level, so PrCs can impact this. You will also need the appropriate attribute to cast with... either intelligence or charisma, depending on whether this is a sorcerer or wizard scroll. You can try to use any wizard scroll at any time, but if your spellcasting level is less than is required, you might have a problem. If your caster level is less than the caster level of the scroll, you make a caster level check. Roll d20+half cleric level against (caster level of scroll + one). The caster level check will fail on a natural 1. If you succeed, you cast the spell. If you fail, a DC 5 Wisdom check is necessary to avoid a mishap. The Wisdom check will fail on a natural 1. These items are Spell Completion. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell)

Zherog
2007-02-26, 03:50 PM
wizards have all arcane spells on their spell list already.

That's not true.

lullaby, summon instrument, Cure light wounds, and remove fear are all arcane spells that are not on the wizard's spell list (they're on the bard's).

TheOOB
2007-02-26, 03:50 PM
A cleric with the magic domain can use all spell trigger items (staves and wands) at level one with no problums.

Clerics can use wizard scrolls just like a wizard of half their character level. That means that they can use a level 1 scroll at level 1, a level 1 scroll safely at level 6, a level 3 scroll safely at level 10, and so on. Keep in mind that the magic domain doesn't increae your int for the purposes of using wizard magic items.

Zherog
2007-02-26, 03:53 PM
Clerics can use wizard scrolls just like a wizard of half their character level.

Nope. One half their cleric level. If you don't multiclass, it's the same thing. But multiclassing (including a prestige class) will not increase this ability - as MrNexx said earlier.

Calin
2007-02-26, 03:58 PM
Wow, thanks for the quick and competent responses. Just to be clear on one point, though, that was the most problematic for us -- assuming you meet the level requirements, spell list requirements, deciphered the scroll in advance and the requisite ability score...do you just "use" the (scroll/wand/rod/ect) or must you make a Use Magic Device Check everytime?

TheOOB
2007-02-26, 04:00 PM
No, a cleric with the magic domain never needs to make a Use Magic Device check to use a wizard spell completion/spell trigger item unless they are trying to mimic a wizard caster level over half their cleric level or they are trying to mimic some other quality the item needs (like a high int score for example).

Clerics with the magic domain get limited use out of the UMD skill, as it's primary use would be to use bard and druid exclusive spells.

Calin
2007-02-26, 04:07 PM
Thanks all, that final point about UMD was the major sticking point, as there was a disagreement about the text. One person tried to argue that this type of cleric was going to have to make a UMD check every time he tried to use any level of arcane (scroll/wand/ect). Obviously, that interpretation would have made that domain less than useful. Thanks to all for clearing it up to his satisfaction.

Zherog
2007-02-26, 04:08 PM
Wow, thanks for the quick and competent responses. Just to be clear on one point, though, that was the most problematic for us -- assuming you meet the level requirements, spell list requirements, deciphered the scroll in advance and the requisite ability score...do you just "use" the (scroll/wand/rod/ect) or must you make a Use Magic Device Check everytime?

The Magic domain does not involve any Use Magic Device checks, regardless of the level of the cleric or the item.

Similarly (just to be sure it's clear), a cleric can - without resorting to the UMD skill - use a wand or scroll of a cleric spell. A wizard or sorcerer never needs a UMD check to activate a wand or scroll of one of their spells, either.

UMD's purpose is for somebody without access to the magic (a rogue, for example) to be able to use an item.

Dragonmuncher
2007-02-26, 11:21 PM
That's not true.

lullaby, summon instrument, Cure light wounds, and remove fear are all arcane spells that are not on the wizard's spell list (they're on the bard's).


Whoops- good catch.

TheOOB
2007-02-26, 11:27 PM
Whoops- good catch.

Plus you got Wu Jen spells, hexblade spells, assassin spells, duskblade spells, and so on.

EDIT: Beguiler spells, warmage spells, dread necro spells...