Talk to me about Intelligence.

[Yael]

So this guy here (call him Wacho) is trying to kill his character (a druid) to play a Barbarian (he told us that he didn't like the druid and it's boring as hell, well, what can I do? He's level 5th tho), but this barbarian would be somewhat special... Like with 6 templates... Yes, he wants to do that Incarnate Construct thingy that allows you to free add at least a +2 on templates, and yes, he went Warforged (ex?) and he added the following: Abomination (http://guilesworld.com/role-playing-games-stuff/dragonlance/dragonspawn-abomination/) Blue Dragonspawn, Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Incarnate Construct, Lolth Touched, and Mineral Warrior. What do all this templates have in common? +STR/CON. So, with a total of 48 STR (18 at pb), and 38 CON (16 at pb) at level 1st (ECL 5) he is trading his Druid... Oh...

Now, here's the cake, from all those templates mentioned above, four include a penalty on Intelligence, to a total penalty of -10; SO, even if he invested a 10 points on his Int score (to end on a 16), he would end up with a score of 6, but *spoiler alert* he won't. Now, what happens here, I know that a creature cannot have a mental stat of 0, so the minimum is 1, AND I know that a dog is like 2 on INT... Is 1 Int roleplayable? Furthermore, is 6 Int an acceptable score for talking? Or just finishing sentences (ME... SMASH... THY...)?

[Zanos]

Most intelligence reducing templates of a stipulation that they cannot reduce intelligence below 3.

You could technically roll a 3 in a 4d6b3 array, it would just be uncommon, but I'm sure it's happened. It's a valid character, certainly.

Also having 1 HD at ECL 5 is generally not good for a character who's role revolves around putting their face where their enemies weapons are.

[Harbinger]

Minimum INT for a non-animal is 3. The way I've always thought of it is 8 INT=slightly dull, 6 INT=very stupid, 3-4 INT= highly mentally disabled. A character with 6 INT would be able to talk and articulate normally, they'd just be very thick.

[Der_DWSage]

Indeed. The way I've seen it, you subtract 5 IQ points from 100 for every point you go below 10. So a 6 Int = 80 IQ. Fairly thick, more than a little slow, but nowhere near 'Grog not know what blue is' level. Grog might have trouble counting past 20, but he would still be able to speak.

For the record, more than a few modules and adventure paths have involved characters with an Int of 3, and while they were incredibly dumb, they were still capable of speech.

[Yael]

Most intelligence reducing templates of a stipulation that they cannot reduce intelligence below 3.

You could technically roll a 3 in a 4d6b3 array, it would just be uncommon, but I'm sure it's happened. It's a valid character, certainly.

Also having 1 HD at ECL 5 is generally not good for a character who's role revolves around putting their face where their enemies weapons are.

Yeah, I am not up to the idea, but he's doing it anyway.



Minimum INT for a non-animal is 3. The way I've always thought of it is 8 INT=slightly dull, 6 INT=very stupid, 3-4 INT= highly mentally disabled. A character with 6 INT would be able to talk and articulate normally, they'd just be very thick.


Indeed. The way I've seen it, you subtract 5 IQ points from 100 for every point you go below 10. So a 6 Int = 80 IQ. Fairly thick, more than a little slow, but nowhere near 'Grog not know what blue is' level. Grog might have trouble counting past 20, but he would still be able to speak.

For the record, more than a few modules and adventure paths have involved characters with an Int of 3, and while they were incredibly dumb, they were still capable of speech.

Ok, so maybe some sentences would be finished?

[Doc_Maynot]

You do know incarnate construct is only done via the Incarnate Construct Spell, which is a 9th level spell from Savage Species that costs the caster 5,000XP? I also don't see how a warforged could gain Minotaur and Ogre blood, be blessed parented by Lolth AND be transformed into a Mineral Warrior after the casting of that spell.

[Zombimode]

Well, just ask yourself (and then the player): Is this a character that would fit the tone and style of the campaign you are doing? Getting an answer will provide a very easy solution.

If the answer is "yes" then there is no problem. The player makes his character and everyone is happy (provided that his build is legal by the rules).

If the answer is "no", you can just tell him that this character won't fit your campaign.

[Flickerdart]

In special education, IQ 50-75 is considered "trainable" and sufficient to attain an elementary school level of cognitive development. 80 is rated as "low average" for IQs, only 5 points below the lower bound of normal. So the barbarian, at adulthood, would have the intelligence of a grade 8 or 9 student - not very smart or skilled, and kind of obnoxious, but perfectly capable of sentences and grammar.

[Kaeso]

The character is a warforged, right? Couldn't low INT be roleplayed through giving the character a really low sense of autonomy (making him very impressionable to suggestions from the outside) and very much incapable of understanding tasks outside of what his programmming dictates?

It would be less "Grog smash puny puppies" and more "T-34 does not understand your Hu-Man logic"

[Yael]

You do know incarnate construct is only done via the Incarnate Construct Spell, which is a 9th level spell from Savage Species that costs the caster 5,000XP? I also don't see how a warforged could gain Minotaur and Ogre blood, be blessed parented by Lolth AND be transformed into a Mineral Warrior after the casting of that spell.

Gotta tell him that, seems very important for our level 5 average party, and our soul system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358984-What-to-do-when-your-game-becomes-a-videogame).


Well, just ask yourself (and then the player): Is this a character that would fit the tone and style of the campaign you are doing? Getting an answer will provide a very easy solution.

If the answer is "yes" then there is no problem. The player makes his character and everyone is happy (provided that his build is legal by the rules).

If the answer is "no", you can just tell him that this character won't fit your campaign.

Seems legit; however he seems pretty attached to his character, that HE made (out of suggestions of us, his fellow players.)


In special education, IQ 50-75 is considered "trainable" and sufficient to attain an elementary school level of cognitive development. 80 is rated as "low average" for IQs, only 5 points below the lower bound of normal. So the barbarian, at adulthood, would have the intelligence of a grade 8 or 9 student - not very smart or skilled, and kind of obnoxious, but perfectly capable of sentences and grammar.

Well, we will expect some confusions, but I guess he could roleplay a grade 7 student.


Personally, I'd rule that a character can no longer be played as a PC if any template would take the character below 3 Int.

Our DM is a newbie and is not accepting that much help.


The character is a warforged, right? Couldn't low INT be roleplayed through giving the character a really low sense of autonomy (making him very impressionable to suggestions from the outside) and very much incapable of understanding tasks outside of what his programmming dictates?

It would be less "Grog smash puny puppies" and more "T-34 does not understand your Hu-Man logic"

That should do it, he played a Warforged before and he spoke just like HK-47 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CqpGfWrmc4) does, everytime... Silly, yes, pretty decent, though.

[Flickerdart]

The character is a warforged, right? Couldn't low INT be roleplayed through giving the character a really low sense of autonomy (making him very impressionable to suggestions from the outside) and very much incapable of understanding tasks outside of what his programmming dictates?

It would be less "Grog smash puny puppies" and more "T-34 does not understand your Hu-Man logic"
That's all handled by Wisdom. Willower? Wisdom. Resisting suggestions? Wisdom. In fact, given that his analytic abilities (Intelligence) are very poor, he would be the opposite of a robot. I would recommend going with the ol' "you wot mate, I'll wreck ya, swear on me mum" archetype.

[hewhosaysfish]

Most intelligence reducing templates of a stipulation that they cannot reduce intelligence below 3.

First thing that came to my mind is half-orcs.

From the PHB, page 11 (first page of the chapter on races)

Ability Adjustments
Find your character's race on Table 2-1: Racial Ability Adjustments (see next page) and apply the adjustments you see there to your character's ability scores. If these changes put your score above 18 or below 3, that's okay, except in the case of Intelligence, which does not go below 3 for characters. (If your half-orc character would have an adjusted Intelligence of 1 or 2, make it 3 instead.)
Emphasis mine.

Maybe this is just the game's designers taking pity on the poor half orc but I would see it as setting a precedent for other races with an Int penalty.

[Vaz]

Talk to me about Intelligence.

Sorry, was annoying me.

[Dornith]

The minimum int is 3, but I'm surprised he hasn't come into a problem with level adjustment. With so many templates are you sure the level-adjustment isn't +5 or higher?

Also, if your worried that he'll be overpowered, tell him that such a creature is too unlikely to exist in this world, or, "You can't be half-Minotaur, half-ogre, and half human," or something like that. A lot of D&D can get silly if the DM doesn't decide to put boundaries on things.

[Flickerdart]

"You can't be half-Minotaur, half-ogre, and half human,"
Why not? A half-ogre and half-minotaur are both freaks and outcasts from both of their societies - humans think they are brutish and monstrous, and the monsters think they are weak and underhanded. It's not at all unbelievable that a half-minotaur and a half-ogre got to know each other in the Biblical sense. Hell, they might have even adventured together, and that's how their son got started on the profession.

Certainly makes more sense than a half-dragon ooze.

[Captnq]

Okay, how about this..

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo...

This is part of being a DM where you say, "I have a rule. The rule of cool. Your character gives me a headache just looking at him. Make him cool, or the answer is NOOOOOOooooooooooo..."

If he continues to argue with you state, "What part of 'No' don't you understand? The 'N' or the 'O'?"

Let me give you an example:

There's a wizard. You love screwing with wizard's spellbooks. He wants that ACF from Dragon Magazine that lets him burn a spellbook into his brain. You HATE dragon magazine. The player just wants it for the optimization. The answer is NO.

There is another wizard, his concept is a fire mage. Everything he does is related to FIRE. He refuses to make any sort of energy spell that isn't fire related. He sleeps in an Leomund's Tiny Igloo that is converted to FIRE using energy substitution. He tells you he wants to use his fire related abilities to "burn" spells directly into his mind. Well gosh darn if that isn't "cool". The answer is Yes.

See? One guy is just being a munchkin, the other a Roleplaying Munchkin. They are both munchkins, but one guy has a theme and a concept and he takes it to the limit. He plays it to the hilt. For him, burning spells into his brain makes sense. The other guy is just trying to break the game.

This new PC your player is making sounds LAME. K-Lame. A thousand points of Lame. He's so lame that he collapsed into a lame singularity. He now has a lame horizon from which nothing cool can ever escape. Disney made a movie about him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzUJJKDa558).

So, try just saying NO.

But if you insist on letting him play it, then go by RAI. The point buy system starts at 8. You can go down to 6 with any of the base races. Do not allow him to go under 6 or he is breaking the intentions of the point buy system.

[Red Fel]

Certainly makes more sense than a half-dragon ooze.

Never try to apply "sense" to dragon mating habits.

Next you'll be telling me what humans can or cannot breed with. And if you have any doubts about the depravity of those pink apes, keep one thing in mind: the Lichloved feat.

/mic-drop

Back on point, I would agree that sub-3 Int makes the character unplayable. In much the same way that, when many players discuss the possibility of playing some kind of animal, it is either a Magical Beast or an Awakened Animal (and therefore has the higher Int), a PC with Int of 1-2 is no smarter than a middling animal, and can't be expected to contribute meaningfully in any manner except when it comes to begging for table scraps. I would therefore consider it unplayable.

Now, on to the problem of those templates - they don't work. Templates can be inherited or acquired. Acquired templates, such as Incarnate Construct, can be applied more or less at any time, but inherited templates - such as half-whatever - are quirks of birth, and must be taken at character generation.

A creature that is not born - such as a Warforged - cannot inherit an inherited template. It has no parents. (Sad little orphan Warforged.) Nor can we apply half-whatever templates after we apply Incarnate Construct - again, those are inherited, and must be applied first. So Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre? Gone. As for Abomination Blue Dragonspawn, Lolth-Touched, and Mineral Warrior, those are acquired, so they can stay, although there'd be absolute havoc with all the different influences (note, for example, that if he takes Dragonspawn and then Mineral Warrior, he loses his flight).

My advice? Let him generate the character. Lay it all out. And when he's done, look at the Int score. If it's below 3, inform him that the character is unplayable, and tell him to reroll. Hopefully he'll get the hint and drop some or all of his templates. If he attempts to min-max, and drop only enough of his templates that he gets to 3 Int and no higher, let him. He'll still be a higher ECL than the rest of the party, and he'll have plenty of time to suffer for it. He'll be behind the party in terms of class features and development, he'll get only 1 skill point per level, and he'll probably run into alignment problems. (Lolth-touched means CE. Sure, you can shift away from it, but until you do every Paladin will be pinging off of you like crazy.) Oh, and despite having massive physical stats, he won't have any real competencies to speak of.

When a Monk outperforms him, then he has your permission to cry.

[Yael]

Sorry, was annoying me.

Sorry, my mother language is not English, so... Yeah... :smalleek:


The minimum int is 3, but I'm surprised he hasn't come into a problem with level adjustment. With so many templates are you sure the level-adjustment isn't +5 or higher?

Also, if your worried that he'll be overpowered, tell him that such a creature is too unlikely to exist in this world, or, "You can't be half-Minotaur, half-ogre, and half human," or something like that. A lot of
D&D can get silly if the DM doesn't decide to put boundaries on things.

Thing is that you CAN be half-something, half-something, and half-something, because templates exist, and a half-orc taking half-minotaur would end up being a half-human, half-orc, half-minotaur, so maybe that argument wouldn't be enough. However, the DM sure has the last word.


Okay, how about this..

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo...

This is part of being a DM where you say, "I have a rule. The rule of cool. Your character gives me a headache just looking at him. Make him cool, or the answer is NOOOOOOooooooooooo..."

If he continues to argue with you state, "What part of 'No' don't you understand? The 'N' or the 'O'?"

Let me give you an example:

There's a wizard. You love screwing with wizard's spellbooks. He wants that ACF from Dragon Magazine that lets him burn a spellbook into his brain. You HATE dragon magazine. The player just wants it for the optimization. The answer is NO.

There is another wizard, his concept is a fire mage. Everything he does is related to FIRE. He refuses to make any sort of energy spell that isn't fire related. He sleeps in an Leomund's Tiny Igloo that is converted to FIRE using energy substitution. He tells you he wants to use his fire related abilities to "burn" spells directly into his mind. Well gosh darn if that isn't "cool". The answer is Yes.

See? One guy is just being a munchkin, the other a Roleplaying Munchkin. They are both munchkins, but one guy has a theme and a concept and he takes it to the limit. He plays it to the hilt. For him, burning spells into his brain makes sense. The other guy is just trying to break the game.

This new PC your player is making sounds LAME. K-Lame. A thousand points of Lame. He's so lame that he collapsed into a lame singularity. He now has a lame horizon from which nothing cool can ever escape. Disney made a movie about him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzUJJKDa558).

So, try just saying NO.

But if you insist on letting him play it, then go by RAI. The point buy system starts at 8. You can go down to 6 with any of the base races. Do not allow him to go under 6 or he is breaking the intentions of the point buy system.

Yeah, it's lame as the layer of the hell... what was it called, again? "Dat Layer of Hell: Lame."
Not funny, I know.

He's going with (talking about 32pb), 18 STR, 16 CON, 8 DEX, 10 INT, 10 WIS, and 10 CHA, which leaves him at the end of EVERY adjustment at: STR 48, DEX 6, CON 38, INT 0>1>3 (which can't be 0, so let's have it as 1, refering to the minimum Int that you may have as explained in the Half-Minotaur entry, and let's change it again for it to be a PC), WIS 6, CHA 10 (yes, that charisma score, tho.)


Never try to apply "sense" to dragon mating habits.

Next you'll be telling me what humans can or cannot breed with. And if you have any doubts about the depravity of those pink apes, keep one thing in mind: the Lichloved feat.

/mic-drop

Back on point, I would agree that sub-3 Int makes the character unplayable. In much the same way that, when many players discuss the possibility of playing some kind of animal, it is either a Magical Beast or an Awakened Animal (and therefore has the higher Int), a PC with Int of 1-2 is no smarter than a middling animal, and can't be expected to contribute meaningfully in any manner except when it comes to begging for table scraps. I would therefore consider it unplayable.

Now, on to the problem of those templates - they don't work. Templates can be inherited or acquired. Acquired templates, such as Incarnate Construct, can be applied more or less at any time, but inherited templates - such as half-whatever - are quirks of birth, and must be taken at character generation.

A creature that is not born - such as a Warforged - cannot inherit an inherited template. It has no parents. (Sad little orphan Warforged.) Nor can we apply half-whatever templates after we apply Incarnate Construct - again, those are inherited, and must be applied first. So Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre? Gone. As for Abomination Blue Dragonspawn, Lolth-Touched, and Mineral Warrior, those are acquired, so they can stay, although there'd be absolute havoc with all the different influences (note, for example, that if he takes Dragonspawn and then Mineral Warrior, he loses his flight).

My advice? Let him generate the character. Lay it all out. And when he's done, look at the Int score. If it's below 3, inform him that the character is unplayable, and tell him to reroll. Hopefully he'll get the hint and drop some or all of his templates. If he attempts to min-max, and drop only enough of his templates that he gets to 3 Int and no higher, let him. He'll still be a higher ECL than the rest of the party, and he'll have plenty of time to suffer for it. He'll be behind the party in terms of class features and development, he'll get only 1 skill point per level, and he'll probably run into alignment problems. (Lolth-touched means CE. Sure, you can shift away from it, but until you do every Paladin will be pinging off of you like crazy.) Oh, and despite having massive physical stats, he won't have any real competencies to speak of.

When a Monk outperforms him, then he has your permission to cry.

That last part hurts, but yeah. We are currently facing 7-9 headed hidras, which damage isn't less than 30/hit, with a hp of around 300 (don't know why...), he'll die fast, I know.

[Vhaidara]

Abomination (http://guilesworld.com/role-playing-games-stuff/dragonlance/dragonspawn-abomination/) Blue Dragonspawn, Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Incarnate Construct, Lolth Touched, and Mineral Warrior. What do all this templates have in common? +STR/CON. So, with a total of 48 STR (18 at pb), and 38 CON (16 at pb) at level 1st (ECL 5) he is trading his Druid... Oh...

Point of order: Illegal template stacking. The Abomination and Blue Dragonspawn can technically be added (post-Incarnate Construct), but the Half-Minotaur/Half-Ogre are inherited templates, which cannot be applied to WF. And they cannot be applied after Incarnate Construct, which specifically cannot reduce LA below 0. So, you have a Lolth-Touched WF (this is legal) with +1 LA. You apply IC, the LA drops to 0. Then you can add Mineral Warrior, Dragonspawn, and Abomination, adding their LA to 0, not -1.

Another thing to consider: He's playing a barbarian, so d12 HD. That's 12+19 = 31hp at level 5. A wizard who rolled average (2.5) and has a +2 con modifier has 24. His health is awful. his Reflex and Will Saves are going to suck. He has weaknesses.

Oh, and, as you pointed out, he is actually playing someone who is little more than an animal. He will be unable to form complete sentences, unable to do basic math, and probably be unable to understand words with more than 2 syllables.

[Flickerdart]

A creature that is not born - such as a Warforged - cannot inherit an inherited template. It has no parents. (Sad little orphan Warforged.) Nor can we apply half-whatever templates after we apply Incarnate Construct - again, those are inherited, and must be applied first. So Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre? Gone.
That's not exactly true. There are ways of acquiring some half-X templates, and other ways for normally infertile creatures to procreate. Since Warforged are living creatures, it would be easier for them to get this to work than a proper Construct.

Also, what happens when two Incarnate Constructs have a baby? Can they? Do they have the proper parts? This is just raising more and more questions, and I bet you could have a totally awesome campaign based around these issues with the right set of players.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, Flicker, Half-Mino and Half-Ogre specify humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants as the legal types to apply it to. So no, there isn't a way to apply them to a WF.

Unlike half dragon, which just says living. Yep, half-dragon WF is 100% legal.

[Captnq]

OH GOD! THIS IS SO FUNNY!!!

TRAIN ANIMAL
- COMPLETE ADVENTURER (3.5)
- SPELL COMPENDIUM (3.5)
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Druid 2, Ranger 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Animal touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
At last, you near the end of the spell’s complicated procedure. As the final act of the ritual, you call out the tricks you wish to teach the animal you are touching. Your hand tingles for a moment as the spell takes effect.
While this spell is in effect, the affected animal gains a number of additional tricks equal to half your caster level (maximum five). This spell does not modify an animal’s attitude toward you, nor does it guarantee that an animal will cooperate when instructed to perform the newly learned tricks


Have a druid come along and teach him to do back flips! With an Int of 2, he is subject to any spell that effects animals!

[Flickerdart]

Actually, Flicker, Half-Mino and Half-Ogre specify humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants as the legal types to apply it to. So no, there isn't a way to apply them to a WF.
I didn't say Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre. I said some Half-X.

Though one could start a breeding program, get some Incarnate Warforged, make them bump uglies with some Minotaurs and Ogres, then template them with something else that makes them a Construct (Dustform?) and then Incarnate that.

[georgie_leech]

OH GOD! THIS IS SO FUNNY!!!

TRAIN ANIMAL
- COMPLETE ADVENTURER (3.5)
- SPELL COMPENDIUM (3.5)
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Druid 2, Ranger 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Animal touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
At last, you near the end of the spell’s complicated procedure. As the final act of the ritual, you call out the tricks you wish to teach the animal you are touching. Your hand tingles for a moment as the spell takes effect.
While this spell is in effect, the affected animal gains a number of additional tricks equal to half your caster level (maximum five). This spell does not modify an animal’s attitude toward you, nor does it guarantee that an animal will cooperate when instructed to perform the newly learned tricks


Have a druid come along and teach him to do back flips! With an Int of 2, he is subject to any spell that effects animals!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NkGZBBbBRLA/Uu5LAV4jJFI/AAAAAAAAVCA/AcK-yi3HRuE/s1600/4703968cb04056c41283dd6b494b86b3.jpg

Having an INT < 3 may be a quality that all Animals share, but I'm unaware of any rule that says having an INT < 3 makes you an animal.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Why not? A half-ogre and half-minotaur are both freaks and outcasts from both of their societies - humans think they are brutish and monstrous, and the monsters think they are weak and underhanded. It's not at all unbelievable that a half-minotaur and a half-ogre got to know each other in the Biblical sense. Hell, they might have even adventured together, and that's how their son got started on the profession.

Make him take this as his back story but work the genetics. He'd be half-human quarter-orc quarter-minotaur.
Give him half bonus/penalty of both the half- templates but at full LA.

[Yael]

Make him take this as his back story but work the genetics. He'd be half-human quarter-orc quarter-minotaur.
Give him half bonus/penalty of both the half- templates but at full LA.

Thing is that he is annoyingly attached to having a Warforged Incarnate, so yeah... No human here.

[Pan151]

Actually, Flicker, Half-Mino and Half-Ogre specify humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants as the legal types to apply it to. So no, there isn't a way to apply them to a WF.

Unlike half dragon, which just says living. Yep, half-dragon WF is 100% legal.

An Incarnate Warforged is a humanoid, and as such qualifies anyway.

BTW, any crazy combination of templates makes perfect sense, so long as you make a backstory about how you were experimented at by some half-crazy wizard. Instead of trying to justify a love triangle between a gnome, a kobold and an anthropomorphic octapus...

[Regissoma]

I would just advise him to keep playing his Druid until his other character can actually do something in the party even if its behind. Maybe around level 9 though its a ways away.

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm just going to point out that such a character is probably going to die almost instantly to a Ray of Stupidity and leave it at that.

Just because you CAN play a character with an INT that low, doesn't mean you should.

[Yael]

I'm just going to point out that such a character is probably going to die almost instantly to a Ray of Stupidity and leave it at that.

Just because you CAN play a character with an INT that low, doesn't mean you should.

This, just this.

[Flickerdart]

An Incarnate Warforged is a humanoid, and as such qualifies anyway.
The problem is that Incarnate Construct only helps with LA incurred before it's added. So you have to Incarnate, add the templates, become a Construct (through Renegade Mastermaker?), and then Incarnate again and retrain Renegade Mastermaker levels.

[Zanos]

I'm just going to point out that such a character is probably going to die almost instantly to a Ray of Stupidity and leave it at that.

Just because you CAN play a character with an INT that low, doesn't mean you should.
Most hit point damage would drop him immediately too, having only one hit die to work with.

[Vogonjeltz]

Indeed. The way I've seen it, you subtract 5 IQ points from 100 for every point you go below 10. So a 6 Int = 80 IQ. Fairly thick, more than a little slow, but nowhere near 'Grog not know what blue is' level. Grog might have trouble counting past 20, but he would still be able to speak.

For the record, more than a few modules and adventure paths have involved characters with an Int of 3, and while they were incredibly dumb, they were still capable of speech.

FAQ states the IQ equivalent would be 30.

[Pan151]

The problem is that Incarnate Construct only helps with LA incurred before it's added. So you have to Incarnate, add the templates, become a Construct (through Renegade Mastermaker?), and then Incarnate again and retrain Renegade Mastermaker levels.

Who says that?

The LA of the template is -2 (minimum 0). From that, we can assume one of two things:

a) When applying further templates, the LA of the new base creature is 0, so a further +2 LA template results in a 0+2 = +2 overall LA.

b) When applying further templates, the LA of the new base creature is -2 (minimum 0), so a further +2 template results in a -2+2 (minimum 0) = 0 overall LA.

I do not believe that there is some official rule for how negative LAs stack (incarnate construct being the only one in the entirety of 3.5) or at least I have not personally seen one anywhere.

Besides, what if the templates are applied simultaneously as part of the same ritual?

[Der_DWSage]

FAQ states the IQ equivalent would be 30.

Please link this FAQ to me. It sounds amusingly incorrect, but I want to see if there's logic behind it.

[Vogonjeltz]

Please link this FAQ to me. It sounds amusingly incorrect, but I want to see if there's logic behind it.

It's the 3.5 D&D FAQ on the Wizards of the Coast Web site.