Tripping Swordsage

[m149307]

Ok, so I am going to make a tripping character. I might go Human Fighter 1/Swordsage 19 for that extra bonus feat. (Or go Human Swordsage 1/Fighter 1/SS+17 because more skill points). I would like to use the Spiked Chain to trip with, and now all I need help with is the feat selection. I am level 2 as of right now... so any suggestions for feats I can take at this current level are greatly appreciated.

[Eldaran]

Don't dip an odd number of levels on a martial adept. 1/2 of your non-swordsage levels will add to your initiator level (rounded down as usual) so fighter 2 is much better than fighter 1.

[heavyfuel]

My suggestion suggestion is 2 levels in fighter instead of 1. That extra feat will basically make your build start to work 3 levels earlier. If you can, take the exoticist fighter from Dragon 310. It's like the regular fighter with worse feat selection but 4 exotic weapon proficiencies for free and tumble as class skill. If you go for the exoticist, there's a new feat exclusive to him that gives you +2 for tripping as well.

If your DM allows Jotunbrud to stack with enlarge person, then that's a good feat as well.

Try to get a level in exotic weapon master eventually for another +2

And of course, Combat Expertise into Improved Trip is a must.

There's a handbook for tripping too. It's pretty good: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8774.0

[m149307]

How would I get enlarge person if I am not a caster (unless there is a wand for it?)

[Kaeso]

Call me a noob, but why does a tripping swordsage need a specific build? :smallconfused: Isn't the Mighty Throw line that's available to swordsages an improved version of trip? It trips an opponent, gives you the option to move him 10 ft. in any direction (which includes right in front of the feat of the big bad fighter, or into a river, or down a cliff), has unlimited uses (if you take the time to refresh your manouvers in battle), can be used with any weapon/unarmed and has no feat cost whatsoever.

Wouldn't making a trip build for a swordsage be redundant and a waste of resources as well as good feats?

[m149307]

I think it actually improves tripping builds greatly. +8 (with out mod) to trip and throw them 10"

[Kennisiou]

Kaseo: the reason is because tripping is hard. You want to stack numeric bonuses and size increases otherwise you'll have trouble overcoming the upwards of +60 modifiers against tripping attacks that opponents have at cr 15+. Improved trip at a bare minimum for that +4 and free attack on every successful trip. The more feats, gear, and ways to improve size you can get the better.

OP: you honestly don't just want to have a single size enhancer. Generally you want multiple things pushing you past medium size. A biggie would be choosing a race that is large size naturally, a template that makes you bigger, or a race with powerful build. Goliath is a LA +1 race with powerful build and probably not a bad choice. Goliath LA 1/Swordsage 1/Fighter1/SS 17. Eventually buy off the LA if allowed and nab another swordsage level. There are a ton of other options for this as well.

[m149307]

I unfortunately need to be human, as my group wants me to take mercantile background. So any other race is a no go.

[ben-zayb]

Kaseo: the reason is because tripping is hard. You want to stack numeric bonuses and size increases otherwise you'll have trouble overcoming the upwards of +60 modifiers against tripping attacks that opponents have at cr 15+. Improved trip at a bare minimum for that +4 and free attack on every successful trip. The more feats, gear, and ways to improve size you can get the better.

OP: you honestly don't just want to have a single size enhancer. Generally you want multiple things pushing you past medium size. A biggie would be choosing a race that is large size naturally, a template that makes you bigger, or a race with powerful build. Goliath is a LA +1 race with powerful build and probably not a bad choice. Goliath LA 1/Swordsage 1/Fighter1/SS 17. Eventually buy off the LA if allowed and nab another swordsage level. There are a ton of other options for this as well.Not to mention that you can't trip someone 2+ size categories larger than you.

As for feats... Knockdown maybe?

[Azoth]

Human Barb2( Wolf Totem, whirling frenzy, pounce)/ss18

Feats
Flaw: Mercantile Background
Flaw: Jotunbrud
H: EWP: Spiked Chain
1: Wolf Lodge Berserker
Barb2: Imp Trip

Enjoy a +12 Trip mod at ECL2, not counting Str/Dex.

Jotunbrude +4(treated as large)
Wolf Lodge Berserker +4
Imp Trip +4

[Rebel7284]

Factotum 3/x1/Swordsage 16

[HammeredWharf]

Human Fighter 1 / Knight 3 / Swordsage 1

Feats:
Jotunbrud
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Standstill

Stance:
Step of the Wind

You lose two initiator levels, but that's not a huge deal and you get the nice synergy between Bulwark of Defense and Step of the Wind. Standstill is for things you can't trip. People love spiked chains, but I'd just use a glaive as a Swordsage, because they've got better things to spend feats on.

[WhamBamSam]

I unfortunately need to be human, as my group wants me to take mercantile background. So any other race is a no go.Do you have to be human, or just humanoid (human)? Going Azurin and nabbing Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets) and Bonus Essentia is a decent means of boosting your trip check.

The Factotum 3 suggestion is also not a bad one. Factotum 3/Swordsage 2/Trapsmith 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 3/Swordsage +9 is a build I'm rather fond of.

If you want to keep it simple, then Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 is a better dip than Fighter, because it gets you the equivalent of two feats (Combat Expertise/Improved Trip) without the need for Int, unless you can use Exorcist Fighter for the Spiked Chain proficiency and can still get Combat Expertise/Improved Trip with its bonus feats (I don't actually remember if they're dropped from the Exorcist's bonus feat list offhand, but I suspect they're still there).

[heavyfuel]

How would I get enlarge person if I am not a caster (unless there is a wand for it?)

By asking the party caster to buff you, by getting some potions, by getting a wand if anyone in the group has UMD, or by getting a continuous item of it

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, the really wonderful thing about multiclassing ToB, as others have already pointed out, is that 1/2 of your non-class levels still count towards your initiator level.... and that effects what maneuvers you qualify for.

"Thicket of Blades" is a really lovely little Crusader-only stance that lets you make AoOs against 5-foot steps. With a dip of a couple levels of crusader, that can be yours, so long as you put that dip a little ways up your swordsage build. This also gives you access to a handful of low-ish level Crusader strikes, which operate on a different recoery mechanic - so, they won't be competing with your swordsage maneuvers for slots. This also qualifies you to burn a feat for Strike of Righteous Vitality at 18th level (which you could learn as a Swordsage), giving you a free Heal spell every other turn, potentially.

[Max Caysey]

Remember the Trait Musclebound, it gives +1 to str based checks.

Also Armbands of Might +2
Tenticle Hide +2
Exotic Weapon master +2
IMproved trip +4
Jotunbrud (effectively) +4
Wolf-Berserker +4

If PF feats are allowed:
Fury's Fall (adds dex modifier)
Greater Trip +2

[Jeff the Green]

Factotum 3/Barbarian 2/Fighter 1/Swordsage 14. Ideally with Jotunbrud and Kung Fu Genius. Factotum gives you Intelligence to Strength/Dexterity checks (like tripping), Barbarian gives you Improved Trip and Whirling Frenzy, Fighter gives you Knockdown, and you still have 9th level maneuvers.