Core only Bard Help?

[cobaltstarfire]

Hello, I'm trying to work out the best way to set up this bard, so I figured I'dpoke into this forum and beg for some help. Here's what I'm doing right now after looking at various websites. It was Roll 3d6, reroll anything lower than 8.

Str 8
Dex 13
Con 11
Int 13
Wis 9
Cha 16

Human Bard 1

Skills
Bluff 2, Concentration 2, Diplomacy 2, Gather information 4, Knowledge (Arcane) 4, Knowledge (History) 4, Perform (ballad) 4, Sense Motive 2, Spell Craft 2

Lv 0 Spells
Summon Instrument
Detect Magic
Message
Flare

Feats

I'm not sure what to do here, I want to be an archery bard, but I think getting improved trip to use with the whip would be nice as well, or taking feats to help with my magic? (maybe something better to poke at if I get accepted into the game, and know more about the party composition?)


The characters is meant to want be join an organization somewhat like the Harper Hall in Dragonriders of Pern, which is full of knowledgeable musicians who often getting involved in politics, and are the backbone of information flow for the most part.

[prufock]

Tripping is going to be difficult using your low strength. That rolling method seems to have hindered you somewhat, though charisma 16 is still darn good.

Your feat choices depend largely on what you want to do. Limited to core only makes the bard suffer somewhat. Still, with your decent spell list you can buff, debuff, or summon fairly well, and you can certainly make use of enchantments, illusions, and diplomancy.

I'd say your best bets are to pump up your social skills; it is also in keeping with your theme. You could either be a lying, cheating scoundrel (maxing bluff) or a convincing political type (maxing diplomacy). Skill focus here can be useful, as can Negotiator/Persuasive. I'm not usually one to push the +2/+2 feats, but bluff/diplomancy are powerful tools.

Archery is probably better right now than tripping. A heavy or light crossbow if you can afford one, and make sure you take Rapid Reload. Point Blank Shot isn't great, but sometimes that +1 helps... and it's a requirement for the other ranged feats in that line.

At higher levels your spell list will improve, and you can focus on that more. Flare isn't that good a spell, though, and I would probably drop it for something with more versatility, like mage hand. Also, if you are using singing as your performance, you don't really need summon instrument.

[Zaq]

When you're starting at level 1, a two-level dip into something else isn't really that helpful, unless you level up super fast.

Anyway, I agree that with 8 STR, archery is probably the way to go for you. If you had more books, you could just turbocharge your Inspire Courage, but that's not possible in Core-only, so that's that. You're not going to be a god in combat (though eventually your spells will make you a force to be reckoned with . . . don't underestimate Grease and Glitterdust, both of which are Core Bard spells)—you're going to mostly be shining out of combat, and your skills are going to be a key part of that. So just a shortbow will make you functional in combat, even if it's not going to be your strong point. Don't use a crossbow—you're proficient with the shortbow, and even though you won't have the strength to use a composite shortbow, a shortbow is still better than a crossbow. You can spend your two feats (humans are awesome!) on Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, which will mean that you won't take any penalties for firing into melee. (You'll have just a +1 to hit, or maybe a +2 if you can afford a masterwork shortbow, so you can't afford to be taking a –4!) They're not the most interesting feats, but they'll make you functional. Your skills are what will make you really interesting, though.

Speaking of your skills, your skills aren't quite right. I count 26 points used, and you've got 32 points to spend. None of the skills you listed are cross-class, so you've got 6 points left to spend. I'd definitely recommend maxing out Concentration (your spells aren't very combat-oriented quite yet, but you'll eventually want to be able to cast defensively). After that, I'd divide them between Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive. (Personally, I'd consider dropping K:Arcana down to 2 ranks, then maxing out all three of those skills.) It's the Bard's specialty to be up close and personal when there's talking to be done, after all, and you're going to want to be good at that.

You haven't made any bad choices so far, so take heart. Bards are what you make of them. They have a reputation for being weak in Core-only settings, but I think that's nonsense. They just take a bit of finesse. Once you start getting more spells, you'll really start to shine, but even before then, take refuge in your skills. They matter a lot. Don't forget about Aid Another!

[Auramis]

Did they not share the current party composition with you at all? It would help in picking out feats and skills, I think. At least, I would think so. I generally try to work around the party when playing a bard, since I'd be more versatile than most.

[cobaltstarfire]

Well the group hasn't even come together yet. (Actually it isn't at all, the GM skipped out this morning). But I would still like to work on this just to learn how better to build characters and things.


That's right humans get +4 skill points don't they? (also, woops even forgetting that I still didn't put them all in..). I fixed that and moved some points around as suggested (maxing out bluff/diplomacy/sense motive). I want to eventually spread into hide/move silently and disguise self eventually. Would it benefit the character type I want to make to take levels in rogue or something later on?

I've often seen talk about putting points in UMD (for more than just the bard even) would it be of any benefit to me to put some points into there later?


Also, what makes the Short Bow better than an Xbow mechanically? I prefer the short bow flavor wise, but am still curious. Is it the attack of opportunity that comes from loading the xbow what makes it worse? Or the feats I can take to improve my short bow use that makes it the bow better?

[Auramis]

The short bow, from what I see talking about on the forums, is generally not as good as the crossbow. You can apply ranged fighting feats to bows more readily than crossbows, but, unless you're a ranger or a fighter, that's a lot of feats to dump into making the bow worth it. Granted, the reloading from the crossbow sucks, but it does more damage and has a longer range, so I think it's preferred more often. Considering you don't have strength to apply to a composite bow, either, I think a light crossbow might be best. You won't be able to move and you'll be prone to attacks of opportunity (which are melee only), but the idea is you'd generally want to be able to rely on your allies to block enemies from you while you stay back. So long as they can hear your bardic music, you should be fine if you stick back.

As for UMD, I don't know jack about it. My signature is a little truer than I would like. I'm either playing a non-magical plate wearer (where I let someone else handle magic) or a cleric of some form. The social skills are always useful in my campaigns, though. They can be a big help in getting information and making allies. They're not immediately combat useful, but they're a big help in the roleplay part of the game.

[Captnq]

Where did I put that filler PC... Ah. Here she is.

3rd level backup (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=937497)

Min/Maxed Snowflake Dancer. Should give you some ideas.

[Auramis]

Where did I put that filler PC... Ah. Here she is.

3rd level backup (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=937497)

Min/Maxed Snowflake Dancer. Should give you some ideas.

You have to keep in mind, colbatstarfire is only using core, as per the title of the thread. You have a lot of non-core stuff in this sheet.

[eggynack]

Level one is a bit of an awkward level for bards, as it's the only one where you're without real casting. As is though, I would advise getting rid of flare for prestidigitation, because it's an absolutely amazing spell, and maybe losing message for something like ghost sound, at the very least because it has synergy with silent image. Things really start in the next level, where you get two first level spells known. At that point, you should probably get silent image, because it's possibly the single most potent first level spell in the game, and consider picking up something like grease alongside it. As for skills, UMD would indeed be a good idea, and it might be worth considering investing more into concentration. As for stats, they're alright, though I would swap intelligence and constitution, because HP is important.

This is really what bard optimization in core looks like, ultimately. Your greatest resource, especially among things you have control over, is your casting, followed by skill points. Bards don't really have much in the way of feats in core, or interesting build options in general, actually. What you do have is magic that is powerful enough to outshine the majority of core classes in the game, missing only the tier one wizard, cleric, and druid, along with the tier two sorcerer. If you put together a good spell list, then other things really don't matter all that much.

[Zaq]

The shortbow is better than the crossbow because the crossbow requires a feat (Rapid Reload) that the shortbow doesn't. Every feat counts, and that's doubly true at first level.

Using a shortbow makes it possible to take Precise Shot at first level. A crossbow doesn't have that option.

Technically, you can use a crossbow without Rapid Reload, using a move action to load a new bolt every turn, but I view having the ability to move as being far, far more important than having a slightly bigger damage die. Also, once Rapid Shot hits the field (iteratives are very far away, but Rapid Shot could conceivably happen at level 3, and there really isn't that much else that's worth taking on a Core-only Bard), the crossbow flat-out requires Rapid Reload, but the shortbow, of course, does not.

Use Magic Device is a very strong skill by mid levels, but it's questionable whether it's worth investing in it in a game that starts at level 1. Use Magic Device is only useful if you have magic devices to use, and those cost money that you just won't have at level 1. The cheap magic devices (scrolls) are the ones that require a higher UMD check to use. If you don't know the group (and thus you don't know how free the GM is with scrolls and wands), it's definitely understandable if you want to invest your skill points elsewhere. That said, it is a very powerful skill if you actually get to use it, so it's not a terrible idea to start pumping it right away in the hopes of getting fun toys to play with.

It's worth mentioning that you don't need to use UMD to use scrolls and wands of spells that are on your class's spell list, so if you get a hold of a wand or scroll of a Bard spell, you don't need to use UMD to use it. So that's fun.

Basically, if you're starting blind at level 1, UMD is a total roll of the dice. It might end up being very useful in a level or two (maybe even right away if you find a wand or something as loot), or it might end up being wasted skill points. You won't know until you actually play the game and see what kind of treasure the GM makes available.

[Telonius]

That's right humans get +4 skill points don't they? (also, woops even forgetting that I still didn't put them all in..). I fixed that and moved some points around as suggested (maxing out bluff/diplomacy/sense motive). I want to eventually spread into hide/move silently and disguise self eventually. Would it benefit the character type I want to make to take levels in rogue or something later on?


Yes, 4 extra skill points at first, and 1 extra per level after that. You'd get 32 skill points altogether [(6+Int=7)*4]+4.

Typically, if you want to have just one level in Rogue, you should try to make that the first level you take. If this were a Rogue, you'd b e getting [(8+Int=9)*4]+4=40 skill points at first. Those 8 extra skill points are gone for good, if you don't get them at 1st level. That's not a huge problem if you're taking mostly high-skillpoint classes, but it's just a little way to tweak the character.

[Regissoma]

When you refer to Core is it just the PHB DMG and Monster manuals, or is it anything counted in the SRD?

[cobaltstarfire]

By the rules laid out by the particular DM that spured on this character, "Core only" appears to mean PHB and maybe the DMG only. The DM bailed, so I'm mostly still pursuing this as an exercise in character building so that in the future I can do so alone without feeling like I'm making all the wrong mistakes. Also trying to work out how to build towards a certain character type without butchering my character's ability to do their job. I'm not even necessarily looking for super optimization, just making choices that won't punish me too much.


I'm actually not sure about swapping my int and con, I really want/need the skill points, and I know I need the con too, but I don't plan on wading into battle either. I suppose taking rogue at first level instead with the intent of going the rest of the way bard would help alleviate that somewhat, but that would set me back on acquiring spells and bardic songs wouldn't it?

It sort of sounds like the bow and xbow are on similar ground in terms of damage and # of feats used, so I'll probably just go with the one that I like better flavor wise (the bow). I guess after those 3 feats I could get Negotiator, and then Extend Spell?

I think, if I get an opportunity to use this character I'll hold off on putting points into UMD, or I'll just slowly put a few in every level. Maybe more based on talking to the gm first I guess.

I'm taking flare and summon instrument off my sheet, I'll get back a little later about magic choices, I have to go to class right now.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Captnq
Where did I put that filler PC... Ah. Here she is.

3rd level backup

Just here to say I really like the character portrait you've got there. Was that a custom commission?

[cobaltstarfire]

Ok so how about this for my lv 0 spells (Probably would pick up message at lv 2, and then dancing lights at 3 cause they seem like fun things, and they fit with what I'm wanting to do with her as a character)


Detect Magic
Mage Hand
Prestidigitation
Ghost Sound

And looking ahead slightly, lv 1 spells

Silent Image
Grease


I'm under the impression that part of how I pick spells as I gain them is dependent on what the party is made up of, with the bard filling in in a pinch, and covering holes.

[eggynack]

I'm under the impression that part of how I pick spells as I gain them is dependent on what the party is made up of, with the bard filling in in a pinch, and covering holes.
To some extent, I suppose, though some spells are just always good. As an arbitrary example, which probably should actually alter spell selection, take two games, one with a rogue, and one without. In the rogue having game, grease is the clear pick, because it enables sneak attack. In a not-rogue game, it may be wise to pick up something like summon monster I (probably later, when it has duration), or unseen servant, allowing you to trigger traps effectively.

On a bigger scale, things depend somewhat on what kind of casting mojo your party is packing otherwise. If you're running a party of tier one casters, then you've probably got all of the greases, silent images, and identifies that you can handle, and your role should probably have more to do with filling gaps, and tossing spells about on occasion. In a lower tier party, full of monks and fighters, you might well be the party's main arcanist, responsible for all of the casting in the party.