New Class system (what do you think?)

[magic8BALL]

Ok, so there's a lot of threads related to balancing one class with another (the "take down CoDzilla" threads and 1.56billion fighter fix threads for instance).

In the system I'm working on, there are no classes as such. Instead, at every level, you gain a Hit Die, and 10 'level points'. These points can be spent increase your characters abilities. A character starts with 4 hit dice, with hit points not maximise, and skills not quadrupled at first level. This is becouse that muchs around with the points system. (it makes assigning points to the first hit die very difficult). The characters are in line with about level three 'standard system' characters (I think).

{table=head]Hit DieSize|Point[br]Cost

d4|0

d6|1

d8|2

d10|3

d12|4[/table]

{table=head]BAB|Point[br]Cost

Poor|0

Average|1

Good|2[/table]


{table=head]Good[br]Saves|Point[br]Cost

None|0

1|1

2|3

3|6[/table]

{table=head]Skill[br]Points|Point[br]Cost

2+Int|0

4+Int|1

6+Int|2

8+Int|3[/table]

{table=head]Class[br]Skills|Point[br]Cost

4|0

6|1

8|2

10|3

12|4[/table]

[B]Spellcasting.
You cannot have more than one spellcasting progression per hit die.
There is one spell list for anyone who wishes to use magic. This list includes all spells. Cast as a wizard, ie. Spellbook, preparation at the start of the day. Casting based off Int.

{table=head]Magic[br]Level|Point[br]Cost

None|0

Tertiary|2

Secondary|4

Primary|6[/table]

Spells Per Day{table=head]Primary|Secondary|Tertiary|-0-|-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-

-|-|1|1|-|-|-|-|-

-|1|2|2|-|-|-|-|-

1|-|3|2|0|-|-|-|-

-|2|4|3|0|-|-|-|-

-|-|5|3|1|-|-|-|-

2|3|6|4|1|-|-|-|-

-|-|7|4|2|-|-|-|-

-|4|8|5|2|-|-|-|-

3|-|9|5|2|0|-|-|-

-|5|10|5|3|0|-|-|-

-|-|11|5|3|1|-|-|-

4|6|12|5|4|1|-|-|-

-|-|13|5|4|2|-|-|-

-|7|14|5|5|2|-|-|-

5|-|15|5|5|2|0|-|-

-|8|16|5|5|3|0|-|-

-|-|17|5|5|3|1|-|-

6|9|18|5|5|4|1|-|-

-|-|19|5|5|4|2|-|-

-|10|20|5|5|5|2|-|-

7|-|21|5|5|5|2|0|-

-|11|22|5|5|5|3|0|-

-|-|23|5|5|5|3|1|-

8|12|24|5|5|5|4|1|-

-|-|25|5|5|5|4|2|-

-|13|26|5|5|5|5|2|-

9|-|27|5|5|5|5|2|0

-|14|28|5|5|5|5|3|0

-|-|29|5|5|5|5|3|1

10|15|30|5|5|5|5|4|1[/table]
Levels in different caster progresions stack. For exsample, if a character has three primary casting levels and one seconday caster level, this is equivelent to eleven tirtiary casting levels for spells per day.

Instead of caster level checks make Spellcraft checks.

A character gets one free spell in their spellbook per tertiary level equivilent.



Now comes the hard part: Class abilities.

This is what Im running with at the moment, but it may change.
Any class ability costs two level points.
You can only take a class ability that you qualify for (you must have Evasion befor you get Improved Evasion, for instance) and is subject to GM's aproval (For example, I'd say you'd need about 10 ranks in Hide before you can get Hid in Plain Sight)
You may take a bonus feat for a class ability, but you must still meet all the prerequisites.
Class abilities that work on times per day or week may be increased by choosing that ability again (Rage, Remove Disease).
Class abilities that increase in power may be increased by choosing that ability again (Sneak Attack, Rage).
Above all: a player may need to justify to the GM why their character may get a certain ability. This stops someone with no Dex gaining Improved Evasion, an archer getting Rage, or someone with no access to magic casting spells. This encourages roleplaying.

You need not spend all you level points at once. You can spend unspent points inbetween levels if you wish, but not in the middle of a dungeon or such. (so a character maylevel up in one place, and then travel to a town, and learn how to cast spells, for instance).

Additionally, a character may spend a single level point to alter a d20 roll. By forfeiting an unspent level point, you may add 1d6 to any d20 roll before the result is known.


Ok, so what do you fine homebrewers think? I'll be attempting to use this in a 1/2 D&D 1/2 d20 Modern type setting with low magic, but I'm putting it out there for general use. Any clear problems you can see?

[That Lanky Bugger]

HD and BAB need rebalancing, I think. A Good BAB is far more useful than a third Good Save, for example. Likewise a d12 HD should probably cost a little more than 4. You might wish to change the numbers so there's a greater degree of difference between certain abilities.

Another suggestion would be scaling the Good saves so they get more expensive as you add more. The first might be 1, the second might be 2, and the third might be 4 (requiring 7 points for all Good saves).

Eh... It's balancing out Class Abilities which worries me as a GM, and this system doesn't address this at all. Likewise you mention spellcasting (and I think I understand what you mean with the table, but really you could clarify it a great deal) but don't include the list of spells. If the spellcasting is just the Bard's list, it's incredibly weak and probably not worth the effort... but if it's the Wizard's list then anyone who doesn't take at least secondary spell-casting (a steal if you give up all Good saves to focus on "just" two and drop your HP by an average of 1 per level) may as well just sit to the side and pretend nothing's wrong.

You may wish to consider making up Class Ability "trees" with some (like Sneak Attack) which can be taken repeatedly and others (like Divine Grace) which have certain requirements. Maybe have class abilities fall into Primary, Secondary and Tertiary "ranked" abilities... Divine Grace, for example, is arguably a lot more useful than a Barbarian's Fast Movement.

The question here is simple... Do you want to completely rehash the D&D system in point-based form or do you want to do something new? Because doing something new automatically makes it balanced as long as you make things equal for everyone.

The big question, of course, is how you intend for this system to work when a character's level increases. Can a d8 HD character with a Good BAB and all Good Saves suddenly go down to a d4 HD and all Bad saves so he can snag Primary Spellcasting and 6+Int Skill Points? Can I decide to snag a level of Primary AND Secondary Spellcasting at first level to jump right to (the equivelant of) Tertiary Spellcasting 5?

[magic8BALL]

The big question, of course, is how you intend for this system to work when a character's level increases. Can a d8 HD character with a Good BAB and all Good Saves suddenly go down to a d4 HD and all Bad saves so he can snag Primary Spellcasting and 6+Int Skill Points? Can I decide to snag a level of Primary AND Secondary Spellcasting at first level to jump right to (the equivelant of) Tertiary Spellcasting 5?

Yes. No.

Yes, I want someone with a d8 HD, a Good BAB and all Good Saves suddenly go down to a d4 HD and all Bad saves so he can snag Primary Spellcasting and 6+Int Skill Points. Thats the same as multiclassing. That said, I want there to be a decent reason why he did this. Perhaps he was wounded, and couldn't fight, or even move too well for quite a while, and took up reading, learning how to cast spells, and now has a rank in 6 or so knowledges.

No, you can't decide to snag a level of Primary AND Secondary Spellcasting at first level to jump right to the equivelant of Tertiary Spellcasting 5, becouse you canot take the same ability twice (I should have clarified this). Taking two casting progressions at once is as silly as having two HD sizes.



Thanks for the input, the saves are a good idea, but I think the d12 is right as it is. Why should the jump from d10 to d12 cost more than d6 to d8?


The question here is simple... Do you want to completely rehash the D&D system in point-based form or do you want to do something new? Because doing something new automatically makes it balanced as long as you make things equal for everyone.


I want to do something new, but to the point that when someone says "can I do ___, like a (D&D or d20 modern class)?" I can say "sure, that will cost you X points". Yes, it means balancing out class abilities, and yes that scary as a GM, but the d20 modern book does that too. Yep, I've considered class ability trees. Thats what I was hinting at with "You can only take a class ability that you qualify for (you must have Evasion befor you get Improved Evasion, for instance)", and balance comes down to GMs judment. If you think you don't want someone d8 HD, a Good BAB and all Good Saves suddenly go down to a d4 HD and all Bad saves so he can snag Primary Spellcasting and 6+Int Skill Points, don't let them.

[jlousivy]

I dont think it would be wise to give 4 hit dice at level 1, otherwise a lucky 'barbarian' could wind up with 48+4*conmod hp at lvl 1, skills quadrupled at lvl 1 i think would be fine, however they should be doubled at the least so that it's possible to play a rogue with a few maxed out skills.

They hit points are in line with level 3 characters, however all other abilities are not unless you go the sneak attack route.

Level 1-20:
D8-2
Good BaB-2
Sneak Attack 1d6-2
Sneak Attack 1d6-2
Sneak Attack 1d6-2
Sure you have horrific saves and stuff, but Full BaB and 60d6 sneak attack!... so yes, DEFINITELY needs alot of DM oversight.

All spellcasting- so can you select spells from any spell-list?
Also, is it possible to get any spells above 6th level?
What is the primary casting stat for this?

Abilities-are there level requirements for some abilities? or is it completely up to the DM on the levels- otherwise i'd want perfect self at level 1.


or if someone went the all out wizard route--
lvl 1- primary spellcasting
lvl 2-primary spellcasting, primary spellcasting
lvl 3-primary spellcasting, primary spellcasting
lvl 4-primary spellcasting
lvl 5-primary spellcasting, primary spellcasting
lvl 6-primary spellcasting, primary spellcasting

lvl 6 casting lvl 5 spells--- DM oversight would obviously stop this


Basicly I'd make these changes:
You begin play with 15 points that you must use at first level
You may gain only one 'spellcasting' ability per level
You may not have a sneak attack higher than a rogue of your level
You may not have a better rage ability than a barbarian of your level (time/day is fine to go over)
You may not choose combat style as a special ability
You may not wildshape any better than a druid of your level
Animal companionship HD will be based on the number of points you place into the ability/2 with a max HD of your level+1.

I think i might see if my DM will let us use this in the next campaign if you don't mind

Some abilities should require a much higher cost: perfect self, and especially wildshape

[magic8BALL]

It's not giving 4 HD at level 1... its starting at level 4, and being equivilent to level 3, ish.

Again, you cannot take sneak attack (or anything) three times a level.

The spellcasting follows a very basic pattern that I have spent hours on trying to balance so that even a tiritary caster gets at least one spell increase a level. Simply follow the pattern. level six spells are gained at primary caster level 11 (secondary 17, tirtiary 33), but at only 0 6th level spells per day. (so bonus spells only)

Sure, having more than one group trial a system works out the knots faster, as it were. That'd be fine for you to use it, just let me know any problems (and solutions!) you come across.

I cannot, however, seem to fix the tables. They're broken untill otherwise.

[Demented]

Fixed tables are heah!
You had tons of color tags, for some reason (they were meant to make the text black, but it is already, so...), and they weren't meshing with the tables properly. I just took 'em out and spaced out the rows appropriately.

{table=head]Hit Die[br]Size|Point[br]Cost

d4|0

d6|1

d8|2

d10|3

d12|4[/table]

{table=head]Hit Die[br]Size|Point[br]Cost

d4|0

d6|1

d8|2

d10|3

d12|4[/table]



{table=head]BAB|Point[br]Cost

Poor|0

Average|1

Good|2[/table]

{table=head]BAB|Point[br]Cost

Poor|0

Average|1

Good|2[/table]


{table=head]Good[br]Saves|Point[br]Cost

None|0

1|1

2|3

3|6[/table]

{table=head]Good[br]Saves|Point[br]Cost

None|0

1|1

2|3

3|6[/table]


{table=head]Skill[br]Points|Point[br]Cost

2+Int|0

4+Int|1

6+Int|2

8+Int|3[/table]

{table=head]Skill[br]Points|Point[br]Cost

2+Int|0

4+Int|1

6+Int|2

8+Int|3[/table]


{table=head]Class[br]Skills|Point[br]Cost

4|0

6|1

8|2

10|3

12|4[/table]

{table=head]Class[br]Skills|Point[br]Cost

4|0

6|1

8|2

10|3

12|4[/table]


{table=head]Magic[br]Level|Point[br]Cost

None|0

Tertiary|2

Secondary|4

Primary|6[/table]

{table=head]Magic[br]Level|Point[br]Cost

None|0

Tertiary|2

Secondary|4

Primary|6[/table]


{table=head]Primary|Secondary|Tertiary|-0-|-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-

-|-|1|1|-|-|-|-|-

-|1|2|2|-|-|-|-|-

1|-|3|2|0|-|-|-|-

-|2|4|3|0|-|-|-|-

-|-|5|3|1|-|-|-|-

2|3|6|4|1|-|-|-|-

-|-|7|4|2|-|-|-|-

-|4|8|5|2|-|-|-|-

3|-|9|5|2|0|-|-|-

-|5|10|5|3|0|-|-|-

-|-|11|5|3|1|-|-|-

4|6|12|5|4|1|-|-|-

-|-|13|5|4|2|-|-|-

-|7|14|5|5|2|-|-|-

5|-|15|5|5|2|0|-|-

-|8|16|5|5|3|0|-|-

-|-|17|5|5|3|1|-|-

6|9|18|5|5|4|1|-|-

-|-|19|5|5|4|2|-|-

-|10|20|5|5|5|2|-|-

7|-|21|5|5|5|2|0|-

-|11|22|5|5|5|3|0|-

-|-|23|5|5|5|3|1|-

8|12|24|5|5|5|4|1|-

-|-|25|5|5|5|4|2|-

-|13|26|5|5|5|5|2|-

9|-|27|5|5|5|5|2|0

-|14|28|5|5|5|5|3|0

-|-|29|5|5|5|5|3|1

10|15|30|5|5|5|5|4|1[/table]

{table=head]Primary|Secondary|Tertiary|-0-|-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-

-|-|1|1|-|-|-|-|-

-|1|2|2|-|-|-|-|-

1|-|3|2|0|-|-|-|-

-|2|4|3|0|-|-|-|-

-|-|5|3|1|-|-|-|-

2|3|6|4|1|-|-|-|-

-|-|7|4|2|-|-|-|-

-|4|8|5|2|-|-|-|-

3|-|9|5|2|0|-|-|-

-|5|10|5|3|0|-|-|-

-|-|11|5|3|1|-|-|-

4|6|12|5|4|1|-|-|-

-|-|13|5|4|2|-|-|-

-|7|14|5|5|2|-|-|-

5|-|15|5|5|2|0|-|-

-|8|16|5|5|3|0|-|-

-|-|17|5|5|3|1|-|-

6|9|18|5|5|4|1|-|-

-|-|19|5|5|4|2|-|-

-|10|20|5|5|5|2|-|-

7|-|21|5|5|5|2|0|-

-|11|22|5|5|5|3|0|-

-|-|23|5|5|5|3|1|-

8|12|24|5|5|5|4|1|-

-|-|25|5|5|5|4|2|-

-|13|26|5|5|5|5|2|-

9|-|27|5|5|5|5|2|0

-|14|28|5|5|5|5|3|0

-|-|29|5|5|5|5|3|1

10|15|30|5|5|5|5|4|1[/table]

[Black Mage]

I don't have time to look through this all right now, but this sounds exactly like what my friend was trying to do recently. Although what he wanted to do was have BAB, HD, Class features, and spells cost a certain amount of exp, so you essentially had to level up several times to go up a whole level, or you could burn all that exp and have a character with a d12, full BAB, tons of feats, full spellcasting...basicly every class rolled up into one super tank. Looks like you have it worked out MUCH better. I'll read through it tomorrow when I have the time.

[magic8BALL]

Thanks Demented! Every time i tried to fix the tables, it would add the (/table)(table=head) tages on the end of the head tags for me... dunno why, and colour tags? Got me beet! Dunno where they came from either... but you fixed it! YAY!

Thanks for the feed back Balck Mage. Hope you get a chance to sit down andd read through it soon.

[Orzel]

I love the idea but it does seem a bit off in cost. I designed something similiar but treated each item like skill points. Your HD size, BAB, Will save, Fort Save, Reflex save, Skills per level, Caster level, and Spells per day were based on your ranks and you only had 4 class points per level.

I suggest making caster level have a point value rather than skill based. Having class features directly based on skills is where NWN went wrong (Discipline). That way you don't bog down a caster's skill points like NWN bogs warrior's skill points.

[Indon]

BAB scaling is worth much more than hit die scaling, in my view. To illustrate, take the monk; D8 HD, average BAB. With that system, they could get Fighter BAB for downgrading to a D6 HD; one hit point per level on average.

I suspect the "Primary" and "Tertiary" columns in the spellcaster level table are reversed.

Also, wouldn't using a point-based magic system (like Psionics) be better for a point-based class generation system?

Upside, without a method of buying class abilities, I can't really think of any way to break it...

[Leush]

Ooo, magic8Ball!

As you, I have thought of something like this. It is gathering dust somewhere in the thread cemetry right now and I think I more or less dealt with the first level paradox by something like tripling or quadrupling the character points given for that level and making starting a good save more expensive than progressing it (ie starting a new good save costs 3 Points- progressing it costs one or two- although your variant on that works too). Also figuring in the cost of feats and abilites- once you do that the 30 or 40 points go just like that. Think of a fighter with his 8 starting feats: If each one costs about 3 points, then you've eaten 24 already.

Also I think that rather than having class skills of 2N, have class skills of 2N+(Base Skill Points) every level. That would fit somewhat better I think.

Also, I would- try for a slightly more flexible spellcasting system:-

Spell level (Batteries not included): 6Pt (Level 0 costs 3Pt) -Note: the highest level of spell one can cast is equal to his level, plus one, halved. You must have all lower spell levels before investing in a new one.
- Spell Slot: 1Pt -Note: You cannot have more spell slots of a higher level spell than of alower level spell.
- 2 Cantrips: 1Pt
- Spell: 1Pt -Note: If you are a spontaneous caster, you cannot have more spells of a higher level than of a lower level.


Or something along those levels- it allows someone who wishes to be a blaster caster with one or two spells known to be one, and a batman with no spells per day to remain a batman with no spells per day. Have you thought about using a spell casting system that works more like psionics?

Last but not least, the most important thing that has to be done is a formalisation of point cost and prerequisites for abilities and feats. It is the most difficult (and most rewarding) aspect of such a system. I think in your version it costs about 3 points for a bonus feat, although I'm not sure- I'm going off memory. I would perhaps give characters a couple more points to play with, but I suppose that you use a slightly different point cost, which actually makes sense.

[Black Mage]

Okay, I just read through it again...and I'm snagging what you have so far before it has a real chance to get chopped to pieces. :biggrin: Couldn't someone technically get +1d6 sneak attack each level with this if they really wanted too?

*yoink* You did good. Much better than my friends way of doing it...we all smacked him upside the head.

Are starting ability scores still rolled? Or are you going to come up with a new system for that as well?

EDIT: Reread the spellcasting part...made more sense the second time around. It confused me abit at first. But what about 6th to 9th level spells? They don't appear to be listed in the caster progression.

[nivek1234]

No, I think the spellcasting is correct. If I'm reading it correctly, it would only take 10 levels of selecting primary casting to reach the same casting potency as 30 levels of tertiary casting.

As for sneak attack, I looks to me (as well) that you could take sneak attack every level. In fact, one could make a character with d8 hit points (2), full BAB (2), no good saves(0), 6+int skill points (2) into 8 class skills (2), no magic (0), and sneak attack (2) every level. This could be a little wrong, but that is why the DM is there to say NO if need be.

[Draz74]

I tried to do this once. I got frustrated with the inherent over-specialization that could be done with it, and gave it up.

(For example: In your system, a Primary spellcaster with a good BAB and d6 hit die and one good save would probably be overpowered.)

I switched to working on a big re-work of the Generic Classes system.

[Black Mage]

What about weapon and armor proficiencies at first "level" and when you "multiclass" with this system?

[Krellen]

Ideally, I should be able to build at least the non-spellcasting classes out of this, right? Or at least something approximate.

Fighter: D10 HD, Good BAB, 1 Save, 2 Skill Points, 8 class skills, bonus feat: 10.
Barbarian: D12 HD, Good BAB, 1 Save, 4 Skill Points, 8 class skills, rage: 12.
Rogue: D6 HD, Average BAB, 1 Save, 8 Skill Points, 12 class skills, sneak attack: 12.
Monk: D8 HD, Average BAB, 3 Saves, 4 Skill Points, 10 class skills, unarmed combat: 15.

Looks like everyone got downgraded to the fighter. Not necessarily bad, but worth noting.

[Orzel]

A bonus feat is probably worth 1/2 a point since nonprereq feats ranged from "quite good" to "the suck". The warrior set up (simple & martial weapons + up to heavy armor and shields) is worth 3 points.

[spotmarkedx]

L1. Fighter: d10HD(3) BAB(2) FortSave(1) 2+int Skills(0)
We'll assume he doesn't have over 14 Int, so 4 class skills(0)

Looking good so far, only 6 points.

All simple and martial weapons ... Class feature? only 2 points?
Light armour, Medium armour, Heavy Armour, Shields.. 4 feats, so that's 8 more points. We'll assume that since he can't afford cool armour yet, he'll pick up two of these on later levels. call it 4 points (either med armour or light armour and shield)
Extra Feat. 2 more points.

Total points for your L1 fighter? 14-18.
Advancement: The fighter can pick up two of the missed abilities per level, so by level 4 he has picked them all back up, but missed the two bonus feats for L2 and L4. At level five, he's equal to a L5 SRD fighter. At level six, he is better. (this is assuming that all simple/martial is 2 points)

Overall, its less frontloaded, but ends up better at high levels. Not so bad.

On the flip side:

L1 Mage: d4HD(0) BAB(0) WillSave(1) 2+int Skills(0) We'll assume he has 18 Int, so 6 class skills (1), primary caster (6), Create Scrolls (2) familiar (2) limited list of weapons (2? if so, why not just pick up "all simple/martial")

Total: 12-14? points. The wizard can easily have all its class abilities at L2 or L3, and then be able to pick up a metamagic feat (or other ability) every level from now on.

I think you have a good start, but maybe you might want to consider giving a cost to the type of magic the character has access to instead of giving access to all spell lists. As it is, the wizard is able to buy his non-casting abilities with only 2 advancement points, and with 6 points on primary casting, they get a new toy other than spellcasting each level. And have all wizard, druid, cleric, bard, paladin, blackguard, assassin, etc etc etc spell lists available.

...............

The above is assuming that the character feats (L1/3/6/9/etc) are not bought using these character points. Is this a correct assumption? How about stat advancements? I would assume not since this system is replacing the character's class, not the entirety of advancement.

If not, fighter in your system catches up to srd at level 7, surpasses at L8
Mage catches up to SRD at L4, surpasses at L7 if he doesn't need to purchase weapon abilities. Otherwise it is at L7 that he catches up, L8 he surpasses.
.................

On another note... How does buying saves work? What happens if Bob the player does this:
L1. spends a point to get a good save: Fortitude
L2. spends a point to get a good save: Fortitude
L3. spends 3 poitns to get good saves: Will, Reflex.
L4. spends 3 poitns to get good saves: Fortitude, Reflex.
L5. spends no points on good saves.

What does his saving throws now look like? (is there a partial progression to saves similar to BAB?)

................

Next question:
How do advancing abilities work? Two examples are lay on hands and turning undead. Neither of these abilities really warrant spending character points every level on. Turn undead would end up being an ability to buy once to power divine feats and then ignored ever after (except perhaps to buy extra turning). Lay on hands would never be taken. (I get my Cha bonus in healing for 2 character points? No thanks)

Similarly: does one need to spend character points to advance one's animal companion/celestial steed/familiar?

.............


Summary: Overall, I think you have an excellent start, but its the "2 points per class feature" and "rebuy the class feature to improve it" that I have the most difficulty with. There are some class features that are just better than others. There should be some more DM adjucation on point values on those costs.

Note that I bring all this up to raise potential issues to light, not because I dislike the idea. Having flexible classes is a really cool concept :smallbiggrin:

edit: as a point of note, you may want to look into the Big Eyes Small Mouth (BESM) anime d20 rulebook, as it has very similar rules for having flexible characters...

[Black Mage]

One thing that confused me about the saves and multiclassing with this...is it possible for a character to "multiclass" every level with this to get +2 on a save each level? i.e. eventually getting a +40 base fort save? Or, once you get the first good save for any given save (fort, ref, will) it continues to progress normally each time you invest points into that save?

[magic8BALL]

ok with saves it works like this:
1. Add up the times you took it as a good save, divide by 2, then add 2.
2. Add up the times you took it as a poor save, divide by 3.
3. Add these rusults together.

So.


L1. spends a point to get a good save: Fortitude
L2. spends a point to get a good save: Fortitude
L3. spends 3 poitns to get good saves: Will, Reflex.
L4. spends 3 poitns to get good saves: Fortitude, Reflex.
L5. spends no points on good saves.

At 5 HD, the character would have:

Fort +3
Ref +4
Will +3

:smalleek: well that wasn't expected... But thats what you would get...



For class abilities I've had the Idea to convert every single last one of them, and their progressions, into feat form. Then everyone spends 2 points on a feat. So I need a bunch of suitable suggestions. Please post them here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2115367#post2115367)



Someone (and I cannot find it again, having read it) said that I've down graded everything in line with the fighter. Yes. Thats the point: everyone is on par with this system, at least they should be by the time the wrinkles are sorted out. Actually, I've lined up the fighter and the wizard, and said that everyone else should be the same.



Weapon and armour profficiencies...
oh dear...
I'm thinking the following chains. Keep in mind it is for a d20 modern type setting. Each profficiency will cost a point.

Armor chain:
Archanic Armor Familiarity (includes shields)
Light Armor Profficiency (chainmail shirt, kevlar vest)
-- Medium Armor Profficiency (chainmail suit, full kevlar suit, ceramic plated kevlar vest)
-- -- Heavy Armor Profficiency (Full platemail suit, ceramic plated full kevlar suit)

The armor profficiencies represent training in that weight class of modern armor.
The Archanic Armor Familiarity represents familiarity with Archanic Armors. You must still be profficient with the suitable weight class of armor.

Weapon Chain:
Melee:
Archanic Melee Weapon Familiarity (swords, axes polearms, etc. Needs suitable handedness proff as well.)
One Handed (Knives, clubs, hit-them-and-they-hurt stuff that can be used in one hand)
Two Handed (lead pipes, hit-them-and-they-hurt stuff that can be used in two hands)

Ranged:
Archanic Ranged Weapon Familiarity (bows, crossbows)
Pistol Profficiency
-- Longarm Profficiency (SMG's, riffles shotguns)
-- -- Heavy Weapon Profficiency (choose a sigle heavy weapon, machine guns, rocket launchers, granade launchers, etc.)



Also, In the true sense of a homebrew campaing, I'm making my own races (why stop at a new class system?) Look out for a new topic with races designed to fit in with this system/setting, a d20 modern-ish type settup. I'll start on the good ol' hummies, and move on to warforged type cyborg/robotic human type peeps.