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View Full Version : DM Help It's the home stretch and I'm drawing a blank: 21st level PCs



Kazyan
2014-07-03, 10:14 PM
In a game that started at "basic competence" optimization at level 2 and slowly crept up to what the playground considers "mid-OP" at our ending level of 21, my PCs have been dealing with encounters that challenge them basically the whole way. Now, I'm struggling, the last few have basically been loot pinatas, and I want to make the final two battles of the campaign actually challenging. The final encounters are a Linear Guild-style evil-opposite party and then the homebrew Elder Evil.

I can successfully flounder at most of the party--there are 8 members if you count the pet NPC and cohorts, possibly a 9th if you count the level 27 NPC they sometimes take with them--but I'm drawing a blank on the PC that has been solving most of the recent encounters. The artificer is now A) beating the enemies in initiative most of the time due to a +18 modifier and B) using a staff with artificer/UMD shenanigans to cast Twinned Maximized Wings of Flurry. This does an alarming amount of damage and often dazes the targets. The dazed enemies now have to survive a round of 7 other characters unleashing a hail of damage upon them (yeah, yeah, you're not supposed to kill enemies with HP damage if you're optimized; bear with me). Since there's an ubercharger, a blaster, and an archivist summoner, they...don't.

Spell Resistance works for the final battle, but not for the penultimate fight. Globe of Invulnerability is okay, but I don't want to cluster everyone that close together. A Ring of Spell-Battle only retargets a single target, and while retargeting it from the main caster onto her would probably put the artificer out of commission for 1 or 2 rounds, most of the Linear Guild still gets dazed--and I don't want the PCs to have a Ring of Spell-Battle for the final battle. Spell Turning has a similar problem. but is at least useable. Spell Immunity is too ham-fisted and the Linear Guild doesn't know about the Wings of Flurry tactic. Counterspelling requires winning initiative, which the main caster can't rely on, even with Chain Nerveskitter and a Warblade with White Raven Tactics.

So...how does the Linear Guild avoid getting one-shotted? Their initiative is hard to increase beyond +15.

In case you need the information, the party consists of:
1. Blasty artificer mentioned previously; also Maximizes a wand of Orb of Force in case of SR and uses a staff of Statue + Hardening infusion to tank damage
2. Artificer's fully-advanced Maximized-Awakened Flesh Golem with various grafts, Statue + Hardening, UMD'ing a wand of Wraithstrike, and Mage Slayer.
3. Summon-focused Archivist (now with Time Stop!) with everything short of Greenbound, sometimes pulling out random caster tricks that I don't expect
4. Dungeoncrasher/Warblade charger. Likes to ignore Shock Troper's drawback with a Knockback/Wall of Blades combo--mostly-dead target gets their turn, approaches again, and gets their single attack, which Wall of Blades usually negates. Also likes to get cohort (see below) to cast Wall of Force behind his targets for Dungeoncrasher damage after every attack via Knockback.
5. Battle Sorcerer/Argent Savant cohort of the dungeoncrasher. Mostly uses Wall of Force/Forcecage for BFC or a combo with the Dungeoncrasher, but sometimes buffs people with Displacement or throws out Magic Missile. Not as effective as the others.
6. Erudite/Thrallherd/Body Leech. 80% of his turns are Energy Barrage, Psionic Revivify, or returning to combat after dying (Cheat Death + Change Fate + Teleport = automatically get a new body from a minion and come back). Occasionally creates an astral construct around himself as "power armor". Is the DM's stress ball due to being easy to kill without ever losing levels.
7. Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor thrall. DMM: Persists Vigorous Circle, Greater Visage of the Deity, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and Holy Aura on the party. Dies a lot.
8. Factotum/Chameleon pet NPC. DMM: Persists Divine Power. Usually just hits things for a small chunk of damage, but sometimes uses a healing spell. Is also an obsoleted skillmonkey.
9 (sometimes). Level 27 Petal Warblade/Swordsage/Bloodstorm Blade. Tactics: throw a Strike of Perfect Clarity, then throw an Avalanche of Blades + Lightning Recovery, then clean up encounter. Not as powerful as the PCs, sadly.

Captnq
2014-07-04, 12:23 AM
Trap them in flatland (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4967.msg70691#msg70691).

Leave them with NO magic. The only magic they have is being able to travel in three dimensions in a two dimensional world. They fight against their greatest enemy, an alien horror made only of rapidly shifting two dimensional shapes that floats in three dimensional space that has access to Flatland "magic".

Kazyan
2014-07-04, 12:33 AM
Ah...hm. While flatland would make for an interesting game, it's too much of a curveball and a non-sequitor for the last or next-to-last session (depending on how fast they beat the Linear Guild) of the campaign.

Giddonihah
2014-07-04, 01:47 AM
If the problem is the Linear Guild dieing in one turn from concentrated firepower, then lets make more of them. Create Simulcra/clones/Illusions whatever of the Linear Guild, design an encounter location that allows for multiple groups of the Linear Group to appear all around the party at beginning of combat (classic entrances preffered). The idea is that they will have to separate their attacks between the different groups, or risk alphaing a faker group.

While you could leadoff with the fakes, I think its classier to present the gimick all at once.You could make the fakes useless in combat or reduced power. Or Perhaps make them all the 'real' ones, just split up by dark magic each with its own quirk.

This way you can give them the pleasure of crushing their enemys! Multiple Times even. Make sure they cant distinguish the originals from the fakes on the first turn, if its possible to figure it out, ensure that it only can happen after the first round or two.

Oh and invest in Wings of Cover, its the perfect spell to counter Wings of Flurry. In a way its even the counterpart spell, both being the really good sorcerer only dragon spells.

Kazyan
2014-07-04, 02:33 AM
I like the idea. A few groups of disguised level 3 or 4 decoys, doing a much smaller version of everyone's schtick, would stand up even to True Seeing, and the PCs will figure it out after the decoys fail to do much. The only issue is differing initiative counts would make it obvious (going by that would be metagamey as all get-out, but I want there to be genuine confusion). I'd have to fudge initiative and make all the decoys act at the same take as their "real" counterpart to preserve the illusion. I don't want to do that because fudging is for emergencies, though. I could have the mains act on lower initiatives to keep pace with the decoys. Hmm.

WhamBamSam
2014-07-04, 03:20 AM
Are the guild members CR21 each? ECL21? Something else? Not that it really matters. A Succubus Marshal 1 can use motivate Dexterity to increase her whole party's initiative by 10 before items assuming the Elite Array and a 14 or 15 put into Cha.

Something like this might make a good evil opposite for your Warblade Ubercharger. It's a I'm assuming your evil party is all dedicated to your homebrew Elder Evil.

Succubus Marshal 1/Battle Dancer 1/Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 10 (CR 21)
6 Succubus RHD - Morning Mutate, Willing Deformity, Inhuman Reach, Deformity (Tall), Flyby Attack
Marshal 1
Battle Dancer 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian - Improved Grapple
Cloistered Cleric 1 - Knowledge Devotion, Death Devotion, Chosen of Evil
Crusader 1
Crusader 2 - Combat Reflexes
Crusader 3
Crusader 4
Crusader 5 - Spider's Bite, Evil Brand
Crusader 6
Crusader 7
Crusader 8 - Extra Granted Maneuver
Crusader 9
Crusader 10 - Die Hard, Master's Will

Maneuvers Readied: White Raven Tactics, Order Forged From Chaos, White Raven Hammer, Covering Strike, Swarming Assault (If you know of a way to make a buckler able to shield bash, then swap one of these out for Shield Counter)
Stances Known: Iron Guard's Glare, Leading the Charge, Thicket of Blades

Cha and Str are the primary stats. Dex and Con are tertiary. Make the third Cloistered Cleric domain Luck so you can bring Master's Will up to a 3/4 chance of working when you need it (probably to boost a grapple check to try to stop the ubercharger, at least until Freedom of Movement happens). It's a little cheesy, but you could use Substitute Domain to trade out Knowledge for Trickery (assuming there's a CE god that grants Death, Luck, and Trickery, which if there isn't there really should be), then trade that out for Trickery Devotion to get yourself some duplicates who at this level are capable of flanking, poking, and stuff, though they're mostly just nuisances.

Motivate Dexterity solves your initiative problem.

On Evil Opposite Chicanery: Use a Longspear and Unarmed Strikes to threaten a wider area, expanded by Deformity (Tall) (your evil party is all dedicated to the homebrew Elder Evil right?) and Morning Mutate+Inhuman Reach (you could also qualify for Extended Reach through Deepspawn, though it takes a cheesy reading for that to work with anything other than the tentacle you qualified with), and have her standing in the charger's path with the Longspear readied when the party shows up to start the fight. Try to Summon a Vrock before the fight starts too. Instead of being a cannon that the party point at the enemy like the ubercharger, she's focused on supporting her party (Motivate Dexterity, WRT, Order Forged From Chaos etc.) and generally being a pest (cutting off charges, Improved Grab off of AoOs/readied attacks, negative levels through Death Devotion/Succubus' Energy Drain on grapples, living through stuff that should kill her, etc.). Also, the crazy Cha score will probably be a contrast with the Ubercharger's, which I'm guessing is around 4-6.

You could also drop 4 levels of Crusader in favor of Hit-and-Run Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Scarlet Corsair 3, which would let her feint as a free action with a bluff check of +yes. You won't get White Raven Hammer in that case, but it might be worth it. I also thought about using the Mage Slayer line and her Greater Teleport ability to screw with the party casters, but liked this better thematically.

That's the easy bit. Putting together caster opposites is going to take some more work, and it's 4 A.M. here. I hope you like this one though.

Kazyan
2014-07-04, 01:20 PM
I like it. It will be tweaked, but I like it. Having everyone in the LG with +25 initiative might not be the best idea because then they could all go first and rocket tag all the PCs; I was more looking for a way to deal with the Wings of Flurry. Wings of Cover seems to work; A DFI Bard is the evil opposite of the Erudite, so he can UMD a Wings of Cover wand to protect some of the party...assuming he goes before the artificer, or the LG is not flat-footed at the beginning of combat. There is precedent in this campaign--I've ruled that, if everyone is ready for each other in a fight, losing initiative does not make anyone flat-footed.

Also, I'm going for ECL/CR 20 for each member. I know that makes the whole encounter something like CR 25 by the book, but really, my PCs can handle it.

Tentative guild members have all been built, so, you don't need to come up with other casters. The summoner's opposite is a dispel-happy abjurer.

WhamBamSam
2014-07-04, 01:36 PM
Yeah, I realized that you might have the guild written up or that the PCs might already have met some of them when I came back and looked at the thread this morning. I also realized that Spider's Bite has a prerequisite feat, the current version of which is Drow only, so factor that into any tweaking you might do.

You could always use a Contingency or Crafted Contingent Wings of Cover, assuming your Abjurer hasn't banned Evocation, unless you think that'll be an escalation of the optimization arms race. Or just make sure whoever is throwing up Wings of Cover has Foresight cast on them.

Kazyan
2014-07-04, 01:44 PM
I'm not sure Foresight works quite that way if it's cast on someone else.

I do not want to use Crafted Contingent spells, but certain uses of Contingency are okay, e.g. "When I cast Nerveskitter, cast buff X". The problem is that Abjurers are wizards, which do not have Wings of Cover available. He does have Evocation, though. I'm just going to give the Bard a wand of Wings of Cover and have the Abjurer sit there with a Spell Turning.

WhamBamSam
2014-07-04, 01:55 PM
Fair points about Foresight and Wings of Cover. Poor reading on my part.

Yeah, Crafted Contingencies are a bit much. The Wings of Cover Wand seems like it has a decent enough chance at working.