Spells per day..... something thats always bothered me..

[Azraile]

Why after level 2 dose NOTHING affect the number of level 0 spells you can have?

Yet every 8 stat points you get a new spell per day and new spells per day in a higher level.

[Azraile]

Why after level 2 dose NOTHING affect the number of level 0 spells you can have?

Yet every 8 stat points you get a new spell per day and new spells per day in a higher level.

You can have 46 int and estra spell level feat and get 4 level 10 spells..... but you will will still have 4 level 0 spells..... WTF

[Skevvix]

I know, I was thinking about this lately since I think my next PC will be a Wiz. I am trying to talk my DM into porting the Pathfinder rules for cantrips. It makes no sense that these things that are fluffed as so trivial, can be utilized so little.

[heavyfuel]

I think that the logic is that cantrips are so simple to cast that even a beginner wizard can cast a fair amount of them easily, and having great intellect doesn't really help you with such basic things.

An easy fix for this is to add a 0-level spells column to the additional spells per day list, with the requirement being one modifier less than for bonus 1st level: You gain 2 extra 1st level spells with Int 20, so you'd get two extra cantrips with Int 18, and so on.

[Azraile]

People give that explanation but that's just kinda silly, considering the spells per level is suppose to do with mystic energy... limited by the whole magic god thing... you get more spells with the higher stats

All those prestige classes kinda back that up with the kinda abilities that manipulate mystic energy and allow you to brake spell slots or murge them.

They all make reference to mystic energy.

[Pluto!]

Clearly, the optimal route is using all your higher level slots for additional Ghost Sounds,

[Azraile]

Clearly, the optimal route is using all your higher level slots for additional Ghost Sounds,

To drive people insane!

[Gildedragon]

The PF solution of unlimited cantrips is, I think, the best solution, but if that is "too broken" the expansion of the table for 0 level slots is a good idea (extrapolated below for your convenience)



Modifier
Bonus Cantrips/Orisons


0-3
+1


4-7
+2


8-11
+3


12-15
+4


16-19
+5


etc...

[Azraile]

I would exspand the normal one back....

Ability Score Bonus Spells per Day (by Spell Level)
Modifier 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 –5 Can't cast spells tied to this ability
2–3 –4 Can't cast spells tied to this ability
4–5 –3 Can't cast spells tied to this ability
6–7 –2 Can't cast spells tied to this ability
8–9 –1 Can't cast spells tied to this ability
10–11 0 1 — — — — — — — — —
12–13 1 1 1 — — — — — — — —
14–15 2 1 1 1 — — — — — — —
16–17 3 1 1 1 1 — — — — — —
18–19 4 2 1 1 1 1 — — — — —
20–21 5 2 2 1 1 1 1 — — — —
22–23 6 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 — — —
24–25 7 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 — —
26–27 8 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 —
28–29 9 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1
30–31 10 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1
32–33 11 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1
34–35 12 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1
36–37 13 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2
38–39 14 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 2
40–41 15 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2
42–43 16 5 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2
44–45 17 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3

[Captnq]

I had a player beg for more cantrips. I let her. Then she promptly figured out how to drain levels with a never miss, no save cantrip. Then she bought three metamagic lesser chain rods. Then repeat spell to +0 level adjustment.

So in my campaign, NO EXTRA CANTRIPS.

EVER.

Frickin' Munchkins...

[heavyfuel]

I had a player beg for more cantrips. I let her. Then she promptly figured out how to drain levels with a never miss, no save cantrip. Then she bought three metamagic lesser chain rods. Then repeat spell to +0 level adjustment.

So in my campaign, NO EXTRA CANTRIPS.

EVER.

Frickin' Munchkins...

Ahhh, the classic Chain Fell Drain Sonic Snap with Easy Metamagic (Fell Drain). That takes me back...

Seriously, if you're not OK with this kind of optimization, remember to talk to player OoC, if that doesn't work, rain down rule 0.

[JusticeZero]

Seriously? Just give out infinite 0 level spells. The biggest balance issue you might find is with Cure Minor Wounds, and honestly, it won't actually break anything to let them have that too. oh noes, they might stop spending a tiny portion of their take on CLW wands, whatever will we do. If wackiness with metamagic is an issue, just say "No metamagic with 0 level spells".

[heavyfuel]

Seriously? Just give out infinite 0 level spells. The biggest balance issue you might find is with Cure Minor Wounds, and honestly, it won't actually break anything to let them have that too. oh noes, they might stop spending a tiny portion of their take on CLW wands, whatever will we do. If wackiness with metamagic is an issue, just say "No metamagic with 0 level spells".

This also works, though I would suggest using PFs cantrips of you're gonna do it

[Gildedragon]

Seriously? Just give out infinite 0 level spells. The biggest balance issue you might find is with Cure Minor Wounds, and honestly, it won't actually break anything to let them have that too. oh noes, they might stop spending a tiny portion of their take on CLW wands, whatever will we do. If wackiness with metamagic is an issue, just say "No metamagic with 0 level spells".

Or rather "no metamagic with 0 level 'slots'" cause, well, I can see use for a persisted mage hand or light or a chained Cure Minor Wounds (a mass stabilization spell)

[Azraile]

I think metamagic and cantrips don't work together normaly anyway

I think there some rule that says cantrips are to limited to bump up with metamagic

[JusticeZero]

There might be. I wouldn't argue with metamagicking a level 0 spell for some use or other. They're very weak effects, and not likely to break things. Just, not if you can run it back down to being able to infinitely use.

[Yahzi]

Why after level 2 dose NOTHING affect the number of level 0 spells you can have?
The answer is historical.

Originally there was a 1st lvl spell - Prestidigitation. It could do a number of cool things and was supposed to be a catch-all for minor magic that apprentices learned. Then they specified the cool things it could do. Then people began abusing the heck out of this 1st lvl spell, so they made each cool thing a separate 0th lvl spell and just gave everybody one 1st lvl spell's worth of minor magic.

So originally 0th level spells were actually part of another 1st lvl spell, which was then limited because the spell was broken. Giving wizards MORE cantripis is just begging for trouble; giving them UNLIMITED cantrips is one of the dumbest things Pathfinder ever did. Seriously, in 1st Ed, spells were rare - you got 1 at 1st lvl. This helped mitigate the brokeness of magic. Now casters get unlimited magic at 1st level? Bleh.

[JusticeZero]

Sure, people "abused" them, by doing, you know, the kind of things you would expect a magic user to do. It gets tiresome watching Bernie the Fire Master have to pull out flint and steel to light his pipe, and the words "You guys have got this, i'm going to go play X-box instead of wasting spells" are not ones I like to hear.

[Slipperychicken]

Obviously, it's because cantrips are OP.

Because what developer in his right mind would let a wizard cast Prestidigitation 5 times per day? It's almost a bad idea as giving a Monk full BAB, or giving a Fighter class features.

[Zancloufer]

The PF solution of unlimited cantrips is, I think, the best solution, but if that is "too broken" the expansion of the table for 0 level slots is a good idea (extrapolated below for your convenience)



Modifier
Bonus Cantrips/Orisons


0-3
+1


4-7
+2


8-11
+3


12-15
+4


16-19
+5


etc...




Pretty much exactly this. Make it so 10 Int grants an extra level 0 spell, and give a new one every 8 (Spellcasting Stat). So you have an extra one at every multiple of 4 stat mod.

If you look carefully at the table it follows a patter for EVERY other spell level, you can cast the spell when stat = 10+spell level, gain a bonus spell at modifier = spell level, and have an extra one for every 4 that stat mod goes over the original.

Also if someone can break the game with level 0 spells meta-magicked, they're not far off from doing it with level one spells anyway.

[Segev]

Ahhh, the classic Chain Fell Drain Sonic Snap with Easy Metamagic (Fell Drain). That takes me back...

Seriously, if you're not OK with this kind of optimization, remember to talk to player OoC, if that doesn't work, rain down rule 0.

Technically, if they're having that much use out of 0ths, they would be fine with spending 1sts on them, as well.

[Azraile]

there a lot of little things that bug me.... most all have to do with things that never change...

Like negative health. You can have like 500hp or 5hp but you will both only have -10 hp to live.

And HD or Dexterity modifier don't change your speed? I am sorry but if you have 3 dexterity I think you should have some speed penalties.... and if you got 30 you should have some bonuses!

[Coidzor]

Probably just oversight as they were considered to matter very little.

[Slipperychicken]

Like negative health. You can have like 500hp or 5hp but you will both only have -10 hp to live.

Pathfinder actually made it into -[Con score]. Granted, it's not much, but it has saved a number of characters from death. You could probably houserule it as some fraction of max hp or somethin.



And HD or Dexterity modifier don't change your speed? I am sorry but if you have 3 dexterity I think you should have some speed penalties.... and if you got 30 you should have some bonuses!

I do agree with this one somewhat. D&D needs a better stat to determine movement speed.

[Nibbens]

there a lot of little things that bug me.... most all have to do with things that never change...

Like negative health. You can have like 500hp or 5hp but you will both only have -10 hp to live.

4ed did something about this, and I thought the solution was creative and graceful...
but we shall not speak of 4ed here.
Ever...


And HD or Dexterity modifier don't change your speed? I am sorry but if you have 3 dexterity I think you should have some speed penalties.... and if you got 30 you should have some bonuses!

Edit - I do agree with your HD idea. Didn't see that when I first posted. lol.

Actually, I kind of agree with this one. Dex is a measure of many things like accuracy and nimbleness. But is it a measure of raw horsepower? Under this argument shouldn't strength or constitution actually determine movement speed bonuses? (strength being the ability to keep moving, dexterity being the fine/precise motor movement, and constitution for extreme methods of movement (like how long you can sprint for?))

Runners have strong legs (str) and a lot of endurance (con), but don't necessarily have precision (dex).

[Phelix-Mu]

Infinite anything is a recipe for disaster. One of the major imbalancing features of magic is its renewable nature; every day, new spell slots bring new promises of cosmic power of one stripe or another, for free. And this in a game where wizards and their kin are rarely ever totally tapped out (and that's barring mitigation like wands, staves, and Reserve feats).

While as a druid I think "infinite create water? bwahaha," as a DM I think "omg, why am I asking for another headache?" And that's not even getting into weird niche stuff like shambler or persisted stuff.... No, I am good with giving bonus cantrips by stat score, or even continuing the progression as levels increase so that they go up in number beyond wherever they are capped. But "infinite" is not a number that should have a place in D&D.

[Slipperychicken]

Infinite anything is a recipe for disaster. One of the major imbalancing features of magic is its renewable nature; every day, new spell slots bring new promises of cosmic power of one stripe or another, for free. And this in a game where wizards and their kin are rarely ever totally tapped out (and that's barring mitigation like wands, staves, and Reserve feats).

While as a druid I think "infinite create water? bwahaha," as a DM I think "omg, why am I asking for another headache?" And that's not even getting into weird niche stuff like shambler or persisted stuff.... No, I am good with giving bonus cantrips by stat score, or even continuing the progression as levels increase so that they go up in number beyond wherever they are capped. But "infinite" is not a number that should have a place in D&D.

I've played with PF infinite cantrips, and it doesn't seem to result in much annoyance beyond people always having water available (a few gallons every six seconds isn't going to flood a dungeon), and casting Detect Magic all the time outside combat (again, far from OP most of the time).

[Phelix-Mu]

I've played with PF infinite cantrips, and it doesn't seem to result in much annoyance beyond people always having water available (a few gallons every six seconds isn't going to flood a dungeon), and casting Detect Magic all the time outside combat (again, far from OP most of the time).

Both uses of which could have been accomplished easily without infinite cantrips expanding the already hyperbolic levels of caster power creep. If casters need another reason to feel special, then give them one that is limited. Just my opinion, but I don't like introducing more examples of caster-bias into the game.

[Alex12]

I like the way PF did unlimited cantrips. And if metamagic is breaking it, you can up the cost. Something like "any cantrip you cast with metamagic applied takes up a minimum of a first level slot, it doesn't matter how many metamagic reducers you slap on it"
Infinite Prestidigitation or Detect Magic or Acid Splash seems unlikely to break the game to me.
Granted, there are a few 3.5 cantrips/orisons that I can see as being a little overly useful, most obviously CMW/IMW. But PF got rid of those and replaced them with Stabilize and Bleed. And in my experience playing as an undead Dread Necromancer, unlimited out-of-combat healing really doesn't seem to be a game-breaker to me. I couldn't even convince the rest of the party to take Tomb-Tainted Soul.

[Eldariel]

I had a player beg for more cantrips. I let her. Then she promptly figured out how to drain levels with a never miss, no save cantrip. Then she bought three metamagic lesser chain rods. Then repeat spell to +0 level adjustment.

So in my campaign, NO EXTRA CANTRIPS.

EVER.

Frickin' Munchkins...

How is this a problem with cantrips? He could do it way more efficiently with a level 1 slot and that's a trivial enough cost anyways. It seems to me the real issue here is the metamagic mitigation (for whatever reason it seems to be the cause of an awful lot of spell-related problems; who would've thought, right?).

[Azraile]

abusing infinite create water?

flood an underground dungeon and get lots of exp from drowneding a lot of baddies, get ways breating underwater, go get loot.

bless as much of the water as you can if there undead (holy water mixed with normal water might not do much damage at all, but you got time to wait around)

[mythmonster2]

People always seem to bring up flooding caverns with unlimited Create Water. Did they somehow miss the fact that it only creates two gallons per level? A 20th level Wizard, trying flood a 5 foot cubic room, would need 23 castings of it, or over two minutes of casting. A twenty foot cubic room would take over two hours. All you've done is told the inhabitants of the caves that someone's outside.

[Rogue Shadows]

flood an underground dungeon and get lots of exp from drowneding a lot of baddies, get ways breating underwater, go get loot.

Hmm. Warning: my math is generally bad, so the following may be entirely incorrect.

Create water at 20th level can create 40 gallons at a time. According to the Pathfinder spell description, (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/createWater.html#_create-water) 1 cubic foot of water contains about 8 gallons, so a 20th-level caster can fill 1 5-foot cube per six seconds.

Let's see...the entry corridor of the Tomb of Horrors is about 130 feet long by 20 feet wide by 12 feet tall according to the 3.5 remake, not counting pit traps, so it consists of 31,200 cubic feet of space, or 6,240 5-foot cubes. So filling the entry corridor with water would, for a 20th-level caster, take 6,240 rounds, or 624 minutes, or 10.4 hours, of continuous casting.

That's just the entry corridor, it doesn't take its pit traps into account, and that's assuming that you've managed to somehow make the exits from the entry corridor watertight, including the Devils' Mouth sphere of annihilation-like trap that would destroy any water that touches it, or the mists that would teleport the water to another part of the dungeon. Filling the entire dungeon would be the work of several days, but at that point you're running into the problem that any water that wasn't consumed disappears after 24 hours (so there's actually a hard limit on how much water can be created). And at the end of the day, the Tomb isn't really all that big a dungeon, compared to some.

Yeah...you're not flooding a dungeon any time soon.

[Alex12]

Hmm. Warning: my math is generally bad, so the following may be entirely incorrect.

Create water at 20th level can create 40 gallons at a time. According to the Pathfinder spell description, (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/createWater.html#_create-water) 1 cubic foot of water contains about 8 gallons, so a 20th-level caster can fill 1 5-foot cube per six seconds.

Let's see...the entry corridor of the Tomb of Horrors is about 130 feet long by 20 feet wide by 12 feet tall according to the 3.5 remake, not counting pit traps, so it consists of 31,200 cubic feet of space, or 6,240 5-foot cubes. So filling the entry corridor with water would, for a 20th-level caster, take 6,240 rounds, or 624 minutes, or 10.4 hours, of continuous casting.

That's just the entry corridor, it doesn't take its pit traps into account, and that's assuming that you've managed to somehow make the exits from the entry corridor watertight, including the Devils' Mouth sphere of annihilation-like trap that would destroy any water that touches it, or the mists that would teleport the water to another part of the dungeon. Filling the entire dungeon would be the work of several days, but at that point you're running into the problem that any water that wasn't consumed disappears after 24 hours (so there's actually a hard limit on how much water can be created). And at the end of the day, the Tomb isn't really all that big a dungeon, compared to some.

Yeah...you're not flooding a dungeon any time soon.

Your math is wrong, though you still somehow got the right answer. A five-foot cube is 5x5x5, and so contains 125 cubic feet. A 20th level caster can fill 5 cubic feet with water per casting, and so would need 25 castings (2.5 minutes) to fill a single 5x5x5 cube. This also assumes that the water flows in the desired direction, and that the walls and floor are completely watertight and not designed with any sort of drainage.
A level 20 caster with infinite Create Water could fill, at most, 72000 cubic feet with water in one day, assuming he does nothing but cast Create Water. That's 576 5 foot cubes, and that's great. The thing is, that's at level 20. Frankly, if a level 20 full caster is spending his time casting Create Water to make small lakes every day, that's far less game-breaking than pretty much anything else said level 20 caster could possibly be doing with that time.

[Rogue Shadows]

Your math is wrong, though you still somehow got the right answer.

Achievements in Ignorance (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AchievementsInIgnorance), that's me.

[Gildedragon]

Phelix-Mu: note that at-will cantrips aren't infinite, assuming they are cast continuously, allowing for the 8 hours of rest needed to prep spells the next day, they can only be cast 9600 times, twice that maybe with swift action cantrips. A far, very far, cry from infinite.
Add to that that cantrips still carry a fair action-benefit cost when compared to stronger spells (not unlike say, reserve feats, which are much like free cantrips).

[HunterOfJello]

Cantrips can usually just be put on an unlimited use item for a low cost anyway. If you use a cantrip a lot then it should be on an item rather than prepared.

A Few Personal favorites:
Pipes of Sounding 1800gp (due to CL2 & requires a perform:wind instrument rank)
Hand of the Mage 900gp
Silent Portal Disk 360gp (Magic of Faerun iirc)
Lantern of Detect Magic 1000gp (custom magic item)

[Alex12]

Phelix-Mu: note that at-will cantrips aren't infinite, assuming they are cast continuously, allowing for the 8 hours of rest needed to prep spells the next day, they can only be cast 9600 times, twice that maybe with swift action cantrips. A far, very far, cry from infinite.
Not quite, actually. After all, if you're not casting anything stronger than cantrips, you don't really need to spend the 8 hours and a bit (9 hours total for wizards and other prepared arcanists, 8 hours 15 minutes for spontaneous arcanists) to recharge. If you need less sleep than normal (elf, elan, Ring of Sustenance, etc), or no sleep at all (warforged, undead), in order to prevent normal fatigue, then you could cast them at-will for longer.


Add to that that cantrips still carry a fair action-benefit cost when compared to stronger spells (not unlike say, reserve feats, which are much like free cantrips).

Reserve feats are substantially stronger than cantrips. But on the whole, I agree with you. I like reserve feats.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd sooner give non-casters unlimited cantrips than casters. Magic for free is already a problem. Why would I make it worse by giving more magic that was even more free (even if limited in abuses and largely cosmetic)? No, the only place this makes sense is on the Tier 3 partial list casters. Anyone in Tiers 1 or 2 gets little to no sympathy from me about their limited access to a potentially limitless source of power. Suck it up, guys. Counting your spells used is the way of the caster; if you want different, invest some of your more limited resources in Reserve Feats or unlimited use items.

Sorry, perhaps this is just a pet peeve of mine, but I don't see that the best use of my powers as DM is to resolve this largely inconsequential issue of casters by simply removing all regulation from the matter. If the player wants a bit of cosmetic magic to look cool whenever s/he wants, that's fine. Such magic will have no mechanical effect, but will allow the character to impress people with flash and glitz.

[Slipperychicken]

People always seem to bring up flooding caverns with unlimited Create Water. Did they somehow miss the fact that it only creates two gallons per level? A 20th level Wizard, trying flood a 5 foot cubic room, would need 23 castings of it, or over two minutes of casting. A twenty foot cubic room would take over two hours. All you've done is told the inhabitants of the caves that someone's outside.

This.

You aren't drowning anyone with 2 gallons/round. Even 40 gallons/round (at CL 20) is more of a leak than a flood, even if there's no way for water to escape. The monsters are going to have multiple days (if not weeks for a decent-sized dungeon) to check out where all the water is coming from and deal with the caster. Once word gets around, suddenly you're dealing with a whole dungeon's worth of enemies instead of one room at a time.


If the player wants a bit of cosmetic magic to look cool whenever s/he wants, that's fine. Such magic will have no mechanical effect, but will allow the character to impress people with flash and glitz.

It's called Prestidigitation.

[gorilla-turtle]

One thing I might attempt in a potential game in the near future is letting the caster have a number of cantrips equal to his or her caster level plus her or her casting stat modifier. Both numbers are expected to increase quite a lot to allow for a large number of additional 0-th level spells, but not infinitely per-say.