Optimisation 101

[Heliomance]

I'm a long time 3.5 player, and I like to think my system mastery and op-fu are pretty good. I have no knowledge of 4e whatsoever. One of the guys in my gaming group is considering starting up a 4e Dark Sun game, which means I need to learn the system. What are the basic optimisation primers that I need to know, to start working on my 4e system mastery?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm a long time 3.5 player, and I like to think my system mastery and op-fu are pretty good. I have no knowledge of 4e whatsoever. One of the guys in my gaming group is considering starting up a 4e Dark Sun game, which means I need to learn the system. What are the basic optimisation primers that I need to know, to start working on my 4e system mastery?

The basics are

Max out your main stat. A good starting array is 18/14/11/10/10/8, and no, having three or four dump stats doesn't really hurt you.
Don't make a hybrid for your first character.
The best classes in the game are fighter, ranger, warlord, and wizard. Overall, classes from earlier books are substantially stronger than classes from later books.
Action economy is important. Any power that can be used as a minor or immediate action is much better than one that requires a standard action. This means that if your class has minor/immediate attack powers, you should take them; and that you should generally avoid utility powers that are a standard action.
Anything that gives a to-hit bonus is better than anything that gives a damage bonus. Anything that gives an additional attack (or more targets to the same attack) is better than anything that gives a to-hit bonus.
Don't take any feat that gives you a +1 bonus to something, because there are better feats. The sole exception is that you'll want an "expertise" feat sooner or later.
Don't take feats or items that boost one of your encounter powers (e.g. dragonbreath or halfling dodge), unless you have a way of using that power multiple times per combat.
Avoid conditional modifiers (e.g. anything that triggers on "you take fire damage") unless you have a way to force that trigger on yourself. Likewise, avoid feats/items/powers that deal more damage to prone enemies unless you have a way to make enemies prone, and avoid anything that gives extra effects on a critical hit unless you have a way of critting more often.
If you find you're not using a certain power or feat often, retrain it. The point of encounter powers is to use them every single encounter; the point of daily powers is to use them every single day. If you use one only once in a blue moon, pick a different one.

[GPuzzle]

Role-specific:

Striker: Attack more than once, and pile up on the static bonuses. If you can do that, your damage soars. That's why Rangers are so great - they have a plethora of multi-attacking powers.

Leader: You play much like a Striker, in that you should look to make as many attacks as possible - which is why Warlords are the best Leaders. But you need to make those hit to count: Accuracy Boosters are also king (War Chanter's AP feature). Oh, and don't forget damage!

Defender: This is... Weird. You want to give the DM two options - attack me (which is very bad) or attack my allies (which is equally bad).

The Ioun Grey Stone Marker, for example. Monsters attack him and miss (+Cha to all defenses), or attack his allies and miss because he has moved them to a position where they can't charge and let them slowed or redirectered the attack to him, making it miss.

It's hard, but wrap your head around the concept and you'll be set.

Controller: I think Kurald Galain describes it better than I'd ever do:


It has a very simple metric: if you hear your DM howl or gnash his teeth in frustration, then you're doing it right :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

Controller: this doesn't have a defined metric. The focus in here is to make your opponents miserable. It's hard to define.

It has a very simple metric: if you hear your DM howl or gnash his teeth in frustration, then you're doing it right :smallbiggrin:

[GPuzzle]

Honestly, pick one role and focus on it. My mastery on Defenders is pretty great, as well as Rangers, Barbarians and a good deal of Leaders, but I suck on Controller mastery.

In the end, it boils down to a few things that you'll hear CharOp people speaking like it's the only way to play, such as Radiant Blasting Shadar-Kai Invoker|Cleric/Morninglord or Divine Oracle, Eladrin/Warforged/Tiefling Swordmage|Warlock/Sigil Carver, Deva Shaman|Warlord/Flame of Hope, Half-Elf Bard|Ardent/War Chanter, Human Ranger/Adroit Explorer, etc...

Different ways can work. You just have to figure them out (easier said than done, by the way).

[Waddacku]

It's important to understand that the mentioned kind of builds aren't a baseline whatsoever, but very strong builds. You don't have to reach that level of power to be fully functional.

[Inevitability]

Yeah, something that may be important; what level of optimization do the other players have?

[Heliomance]

Don't think anyone except the DM has played 4e before. It ought to be possible to run a well optimised character and not overshadow everyone, though - I've just finished a 3.5 campaign where I was playing a heavily optimised illusionist. I specialised in battlefield control, and definitely didn't make anyone else pointless.

[GPuzzle]

Honestly, if you're going to optimize, play a Leader.

Half-Elf Bard/War Chanter is a pretty good start. Tiefling might be good, too, if you don't mind trading some damage that your allies will do for initiative. Honestly, the real deal is the AP feature - +5 to hit and to damage is nothing to sneeze at (remember, it's hard to find bonuses to hit, and this one is massive) is pretty nasty. The encounter power's special function is an EFFECT, which means that hit or miss, it's dealing something. And that something is an ally making a Basic Attack (Melee or Ranged) with a +Con to hit and to Damage.

A very basic build would be like this:

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Bard
Bardic Presence: Valorous Presence
Dilletante: Magic Weapon

Strength 12
Constitution 21
Dexteritry 14
Intelligence 11
Wisdom 9
Charisma 21

AC
Fortitude
Reflex
Will

Feats
L1-Battle Song Expertise
L2-Improved Defenses
L4-Resourceful Leader
L6-Improved Initiative
L8-Adept Dilletante
L10-Acolyte Power (Slick Conocotion)
L11-Versatile Master
L12-Bravura Leader

Necessary At-Will
Dilletante-Magic Weapon

Necessary Utilities
L6-Natural Terrain Understanding
L10-Slick Conocotion

Necessary Items
+2 Long Range Dagger
Boots of Eagerness


It's a pretty simple build that does a lot of stuff.

First, class. Bard is necessary for War Chanter. We're going with it.

Second, race - Half-Elf for two things. First, it grants a +2 to Con and +2 to Cha. Second, we can pick up the Artificer's Magic Weapon at-will, and use it with Charisma due to Adept Dilletante, and use it at-will due to Versatile Master.

What Magic Weapon does is quite simple and quite potent. It is Cha+1 (for this build, normally it'd be Int+1) vs AC, using a weapon, attack, that deals 1[W]+Cha damage (add modifiers as necessary - here, we're looking at 1d4+7 damage right now). What's important is what will happen next. It gives all of your adjacent allies a +1 to hit (remember, even a +1 is hard to find) and +Con to damage. +5 to damage. Huge.

But they need to be adjacent.

Natural Terrain Understanding allows your allies to shift next to you and gain a defense bonus in the process. It has the side effect of requiring training in Nature - we've been reduced to 2 different skill slots - you're already trained in Arcana, Perception's probably the best skill out there, and you have to be trained in Nature. I reccomend Bluff and Intimidate, since your Diplomacy will be quite high.

And now they need to get to your enemies.

That's where Slick Conocotion comes in. You slide all allies 3 squares from you 5 squares. It's great.

And now you're stuck. Boots of Eagerness' encounter power allows you to gain a move action, which you'll use to move towards an enemy, use an action point, gaining an extra action in which you'll use your Encounter Power from War Chanter.

So, an enemy just got hit (disclaimer: it's a +11 to hit - the guy isn't missing anytime soon) with a basic attack that dealt an extra 15 damage. He's very hurt by now.

But what happens next?

Your allies are now sitting at +6 to hit and +10 to damage. If they AP, they go to +6 to hit and +21 to damage.

It's a disgusting amount of damage. You didn't do much yourself, but your allies got buffed to the Heavens.

Very basic frame. You can fill the rest yourself.

[Dimers]

If you're used to the concept of BFC, do play a controller. You already know that status effects are stronger than Moar Dakka. Illusionist wizards are fun in 4e. Druids are a good choice too. Invokers would be, but if you're playing by-the-book Dark Sun, divine classes are disallowed.

If you have an opportunity to all make your characters together, look for synergy between builds. If somebody wants powers that knock enemies prone, the other players would benefit from stuff that takes advantage of the prone condition. Two control-oriented characters could work together to turn minor status effects into major problems. Certain leaders benefit the most from having party members who can make good Basic Attacks; other leaders improve party mobility, more than compensating for heavy armor or short legs. And so on. It's definitely more of a team game than 3.X ... many powers affect allies directly, and teamwork can be very effective.

Arcane classes can use arcane defiling in Dark Sun, which is a grand whopping MEH compared to what you'd expect from the novels. :smallyuk:

EDIT: You may have noticed nobody's been talking about out-of-combat stuff. That's basically because every character is good at out-of-combat stuff already, just from having training in a few skills. Not something you need to worry about optimizing.

[Epinephrine]

I'll second GPuzzle's suggestion of playing the leader.

1) it's actually fun
2) doing it well makes everyone happy, while some other roles (striker, defender) mostly make you feel good.

So if you are going to have one optimised character, making it the leader doesn't make anyone else feel bad (in fact, it often makes them feel great). Making other people shine is fun.

That said, Controller isn't bad either for not overshadowing everyone, depending what you do.

[masteraleph]

In addition to what everyone else has said: pick an element. Damage in 4e is significantly better when you concentrate on one element, rather than many (even better if you have 2 and can thus avoid resistances, but one is good). Find a way to get that element on all of your attacks- the most common way is implement and weapon enchantments, but there are some other tricks too, like being a melee Genasi or various paragon paths. If the entire party picks the same element, that's often better (especially with Radiant or, to a lesser extent, Cold), but it's not required.

[GPuzzle]

In addition to what everyone else has said: pick an element. Damage in 4e is significantly better when you concentrate on one element, rather than many (even better if you have 2 and can thus avoid resistances, but one is good). Find a way to get that element on all of your attacks- the most common way is implement and weapon enchantments, but there are some other tricks too, like being a melee Genasi or various paragon paths. If the entire party picks the same element, that's often better (especially with Radiant or, to a lesser extent, Cold), but it's not required.

Just don't pick Poison.

[Kurald Galain]

In addition to what everyone else has said: pick an element.

Except if you play a controller. Controllers aren't about damage, they're about making the enemies dazed, prone, blinded, weakened, and immobilized; preferably all of that at the same time :smallamused:

[GPuzzle]

A Shadar-Kai Invoker|Cleric can leave enemies in a burst 3 prone+dazed with allies and oozes breathing down their necks. At level 3.

Did I also mention he's insubstantial?

Also, on the topic of Invoker|Clerics, controllers, and damage, Morninglord.

Your argument is invalid.

[masteraleph]

Except if you play a controller. Controllers aren't about damage, they're about making the enemies dazed, prone, blinded, weakened, and immobilized; preferably all of that at the same time :smallamused:

*cough*Invoker-Morninglord*cough*

All of the above is nice, but it's even better when they're also Vulnerable 10 Radiant.

[Kurald Galain]

Your argument is invalid.

Really now.


but I suck on Controller mastery.
:smalltongue:

Just because one controller build exists that encourages you to do exclusively radiant damage (by level 16, which is well above what most campaigns play at anyway), doesn't mean that it's a priority for controllers in general to focus on one particular element. For example, for a wizard or druid that wants to improve his damage, a staff of ruin + sybaris shard is generally a better deal than converting all your damage to cold and applying the frostcheese combo.

[GPuzzle]

I'm not saying it's the only way, but it's a pretty common one.

They really shouldn't worry about damage as much as Strikers or Defenders do, but everyone pays a bit of service to damage. On average, you'll be doing 23 damage on static modifiers at level 30. Decent enough.

[Zaq]

Try very, very hard to compartmentalize your knowledge of 3.5 away from your knowledge of 4e. Do not assume that anything works the same way it does in 3.5. This takes some getting used to.

As a partial list:

AoOs don't work the same way.
Ally-targeting effects don't work the same way.
Immediate actions don't work the same way.
Swift (minor) actions don't work the same way.
Prone doesn't work the same way.
Flanking doesn't work the same way.
Reach doesn't work the same way.
Dazed doesn't work the same way.
Slowed doesn't work the same way.
5 ft steps don't work the same way.
Charging doesn't work the same way.
Blinded doesn't work the same way.

But the kicker is that a lot of those things work similarly to how they work in 3.5. Just not identically to how they work in 3.5. It's real easy for someone who knows 3.5 to get tripped up in the differences, so do your very best to compartmentalize the two in your head. I certainly got tripped up for a while, and so did most of my group. We all got over it eventually, but some of us took longer than others. Do not make any assumptions about the rules based on previous editions, because you're likely to get it wrong.

If you learned one game, you can learn another. But there's a learning period, and it's arguably harder for 3.5 veterans, since the 3.5 rules are second nature to you.