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Particle_Man
2014-07-04, 06:23 PM
The Evocation tradition allows a 6th level evoker to require victims of their evocation cantrips to take half damage even on a failed saving throw, when they would normally take none.

On the first pass my question was "well how does that interact with the 7th level rogue evasion bonus that allows you to take no damage on a successful dex saving throw?"

In my head I resolved that like a tie for skill challenges you pretend both abilities don't exist and see what the status quo would be.

But on the second pass my question was "so where are the wizard evocation cantrips that require a saving throw for either less or no damage anyhow?". The ones they list seem to be all "make a ranged attack - if you hit the target takes damage".

I assume (if I haven't missed the cantrip) that there will be such a cantrip in the player's handbook when it comes out.

OTOH, I could modify the evoker power in the basic pdf to say "even if you miss with an evocation cantrip, the target still takes half damage (but no other effect)" just to give the Basic rules evoker something to use that ability on. And this would not interact with the rogue's evasion power, since that affects saving throws.

So am I just missing something?

obryn
2014-07-04, 06:36 PM
It seems like it needs errata, to me.

da_chicken
2014-07-04, 06:49 PM
The Evocation tradition allows a 6th level evoker to require victims of their evocation cantrips to take half damage even on a failed saving throw, when they would normally take none.

On the first pass my question was "well how does that interact with the 7th level rogue evasion bonus that allows you to take no damage on a successful dex saving throw?"

Bottom line is Evasion wins. A Fireball says it deals damage on a successful save and Evasion wins. Potent Cantrip makes the cantrip function like Fireball instead of save negates. Since Evasion still beats Fireball, Potent Cantrip can't beat Evasion.

Alternately, Potent Cantrip just modifes the spell so that it meets the prerequisites that allow Evasion to work.



But on the second pass my question was "so where are the wizard evocation cantrips that require a saving throw for either less or no damage anyhow?". The ones they list seem to be all "make a ranged attack - if you hit the target takes damage".

I assume (if I haven't missed the cantrip) that there will be such a cantrip in the player's handbook when it comes out.

OTOH, I could modify the evoker power in the basic pdf to say "even if you miss with an evocation cantrip, the target still takes half damage (but no other effect)" just to give the Basic rules evoker something to use that ability on. And this would not interact with the rogue's evasion power, since that affects saving throws.

So am I just missing something?

The feature currently does nothing. You can see the official forum guide (Plaguescarred) say that the PHB has cantrips with saves here:
http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-questions/threads/4107146

Thrudd
2014-07-04, 07:29 PM
Yeah, this power needs an errata, they refer to something that was in some of the playtests but isn't actually in this document (wizard cantrips that force saving throws instead of requiring an attack roll).
The power explicitly and solely affects cantrips, not other spells, but all the damage cantrips use attack rolls and do not force saving throws. So it should say, "even when you miss your attack roll with a cantrip the target takes half damage." Or "your cantrips now force saving throws instead of using attack rolls, and do half damage on a failed save." - in which case evasion still functions as normal.

edit: unless they are really planning on adding even more evocation damage cantrips in the PHB? I don't want to believe that, what would be the point? So wizards would have both ranged targeted attacks and AoE attacks at-will that scale with level? I hope this won't be the case.

da_chicken
2014-07-04, 08:11 PM
edit: unless they are really planning on adding even more evocation damage cantrips in the PHB? I don't want to believe that, what would be the point? So wizards would have both ranged targeted attacks and AoE attacks at-will that scale with level? I hope this won't be the case.

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense overall. It's an easy thing for them to miss, though, since many of the cantrips had saves in the final playtest.

SpawnOfMorbo
2014-07-04, 11:31 PM
Sacred Flame is a cleric evocation Cantrip funny enough you know...

:smalltongue:

Edit: Dex saving throw for no damage, haha forgot to add that last bit.

Particle_Man
2014-07-05, 12:35 AM
Sacred Flame is a cleric evocation Cantrip funny enough you know...

:smalltongue:

Edit: Dex saving throw for no damage, haha forgot to add that last bit.

What a pity that evoker wizards cannot cast Sacred Flame since they are not clerics.

Maybe with multi-classing rules? But that takes us beyond Basic.

rlc
2014-07-05, 09:18 AM
Well, multi-classing is mentioned in basic.
But this is technically 0.1 and they said that they intend to update it (though that seems sloppy for text-based stuff).

Jeraa
2014-07-05, 09:21 AM
Well, multi-classing is mentioned in basic.
But this is technically 0.1 and they said that they intend to update it (though that seems sloppy for text-based stuff).

Well, they intend to add to it when the Dungeon Masters Guide and the Monster Manual come out. I don't know if there was any mention of adding more Players Handbook stuff.

Remember, this isn't an SRD like 3.X of Pathfinder have. It is just the bare bones basic stuff needed to play.

SpawnOfMorbo
2014-07-05, 09:48 AM
What a pity that evoker wizards cannot cast Sacred Flame since they are not clerics.

Maybe with multi-classing rules? But that takes us beyond Basic.

That's why I thought it was funny. For once the wizard got shafted instead of the other classes.

You could apply Sacred Flame rules to other Cantrips.

I wished one of the Dwarf sub races got a free Cleric Cantrip. Sort of a balance of the elf getting a free wizard Cantrip. I would love to see the Dwarves versus Elves fighting played up.

I think it would be a great class feature for the generalist wizard, the ability to make a spell be an attack roll or a saving throw.

Doleth
2014-07-05, 12:15 PM
The Evocation tradition allows a 6th level evoker to require victims of their evocation cantrips to take half damage even on a failed saving throw, when they would normally take none.

On the first pass my question was "well how does that interact with the 7th level rogue evasion bonus that allows you to take no damage on a successful dex saving throw?"

Potent Cantrip makes it so Succeeding the Saving Throw against the Cantrip still make you take half-damage.
Evasion make it so it so you take no damage on a Dex Saving Throw that make you take half-damage if you make the check. Half-Damage if you failed the check.
I don't see how it goes any other way than the Rogue taking half-damage on a failed saving throw, no damage if they succeed.