I've spent too long on the Playground...

[WeaselGuy]

I recently joined a Facebook group about D&D, and they put out a call for "best base class without magic items"... Threw out my 2 cents, and dropped a link to here. Checking back on the comments and I can actually feel my brain cells committing suicide from reading all the "monk op" and "monk 20" and "monk with vop slays all" posts...

I think I'm going to curl up on my couch and cry now :smalleek:

[Raven777]

/pats you on the back

[Vhaidara]

Well, to be fair, with no magic items as an established thing, VoP is pretty OP. And without Tome of Battle, Monk probably is up there And I read mundane.

[Xefas]

We've all been there. In college, years ago, while looking for new D&D groups, one that I stumbled upon seemed nice enough. The first session, building characters, we got in what I thought was a friendly conversation about the relative power of spellcasting classes. The GM was very vehement that the Warlock was the most powerful class in the game, swearing up and down about a whole host of incredibly powerful and abusable abilities that I'd never heard of before, and how the class had ruined many games for him in the past.

I thought that was peculiar, so I got him to divulge what the abilities were called, and it turned out that he was wildly misinterpreting how almost every Invocation in the book functioned. Things like Darkness + Devil's Sight blocking all line of effect to the Warlock, but not disrupting the Warlock at all. I pointed that out to him, and showed him the spell descriptions that clearly stated what the Invocations could and couldn't do, and rambled off some crazy things Wizards could do, like Genesis + Astral Projection and spells like Shivering Touch and Ice Assassin.

And, uh, when I was done... he threw some things at me, screamed that I'd never play in one of his games, and that if he ever saw me again he was going to physically beat me, and then chased me out of the building.

So, I guess the lesson is, if you ever see someone on the internet and think "This guy couldn't be so hateful about a leisure activity that involves telling stories about half-dragon unicorn fairies in real life. This must just be the internet persona he uses to blow off steam after work." No. No, there really are people like that, and they really do play D&D.

[WeaselGuy]

Well, to be fair, with no magic items as an established thing, VoP is pretty OP. And without Tome of Battle, Monk probably is up there And I read mundane.

Exactly... I'm not denying that VoP can be spectacular. But for Monk-flair, I have to agree with the consensus of Unarmed Swordsage, if mundane is preferred. And if Mundane + low magic is demanded, then I see no reason why a VoP UA SS can't be awesome. Barring the whole lack of flight thing that always gets tossed out there. But if you really want to exploit VoP, I throw my vote at Druid. Cause really, bears riding bears summoning bears don't really need shiny beatsticks.

[Vhaidara]

Like I said in the crossed out, assuming no ToB (I only found out it existed about a year and a half ago), and then adding in mundane only, monk actually does a reasonable showing.

[WeaselGuy]

So, I guess the lesson is, if you ever see someone on the internet and think "This guy couldn't be so hateful about a leisure activity that involves telling stories about half-dragon unicorn fairies in real life. This must just be the internet persona he uses to blow off steam after work." No. No, there really are people like that, and they really do play D&D.

Bwahahahaha... can I sig that? That's totally awesome and definitely made my day!

Also, Warlocks are pretty powerful one trick ponies but I agree, definitely not game-breaking.

[VoxRationis]

Things like Darkness + Devil's Sight blocking all line of effect to the Warlock, but not disrupting the Warlock at all.

Wait, so I'm confused. What's wrong about that combo? Is it that the Darkness blocks line of sight, not line of effect? Or is it that the "darkness" is only "shadowy illumination," and therefore only provides 20% concealment? Do warlocks get a deeper darkness effect at any point?

[Troacctid]

Wait, so I'm confused. What's wrong about that combo? Is it that the Darkness blocks line of sight, not line of effect? Or is it that the "darkness" is only "shadowy illumination," and therefore only provides 20% concealment? Do warlocks get a deeper darkness effect at any point?

It doesn't block line of sight or line of effect, it just gives you concealment. Not too shabby, but definitely not overpowered.

[eggynack]

Yeah, I've certainly been in that place before, and I usually end up spending massive amounts of time trying to explain all of the various reasons why monks suck, before the other party inevitably gets bored and/or holes up behind a wall of non-arguing disagreement.

[Sir Chuckles]

I've gotten Monks, Fighter dips, Large PCs, tripping, grappling, sundering, aiding party members against their shadow doubles, Rock Throwing, Fling Ally/Enemy, Permanency, iPods, exercise balls, charging, Flurry of Blows using anything other punches, Critical Hits, and myself banned from a table all in one night.
Not in that exact order.

So, yeah, many tables, many worlds, many, many different people.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, this is definitely an "it takes all kinds" issue. I was DM in an actual campaign where warlock was really strong. Largely due to low-op high-tiers and me frequently using time pressures as a way to augment challenges. Actually made the warlock stand out a good bit (certainly more than the tier gap would suggest). Didn't hurt that that player was mainly a "blow it up" kind of guy who wasn't looking for a huge toolbox to make his impact on the campaign.

So, yeah, there is room for all kinds of opinions about the game. And room for anyone's opinions to be proven totally wrong at someone else' table.

[Kazudo]

I had the same conversation with a guy about Monk 20 without ToB.
I uh...I had to explain why Monks are really bad. Really, really bad. Even with VoP.

[Agincourt]

I had to explain why Monks are really bad. Really, really bad. Even with VoP.
Especially with VoP.

[Phelix-Mu]

I had the same conversation with a guy about Monk 20 without ToB.
I uh...I had to explain why Monks are really bad. Really, really bad. Even with VoP.

But this is the problem with absolute terms. Monks aren't really really bad. Monks like the PHB would have you build them are really bad around most tables. Monks as they can optimally be built using all 3e resources can solo all the elder evils and their associated encounters. Monks around a bunch of penniless fighters are awesome. Monks around a bunch of penniless druids suck so hard that it defies all comprehension.

But, generally, it varies hugely and depends on context. Like almost everything else about this game.

[Xefas]

Bwahahahaha... can I sig that? That's totally awesome and definitely made my day!

Sure, of course. :smallsmile:

[Bullet06320]

FaceBook=Evil(NE I think, but debatable)

[Captnq]

Monks aren't bad.

Monk's without magic items are bad. The right combo of equipment and the right buffs from a friendly spellcaster and you'll be punching for 16d6 damage 18 times a round in no time.

A VoP monk is a joke, however. No question about that.

[icefractal]

Indeed; I think Monk is actually the class that benefits the most from having more wealth than normal.

For instance, in a Kingmaker game I played in, the Monk was the one who defeated the majority of the foes, IIRC. The casters probably had more potential power, but with the wealth of a nation (literally), the Monk could handle most things without exhausting any resources, so that's often what happened.

No magic items and no VoP would be an interesting question. I'm inclined to say some kind of summoner, so either Druid or Psion.

[eggynack]

Monks aren't bad.

Monk's without magic items are bad. The right combo of equipment and the right buffs from a friendly spellcaster and you'll be punching for 16d6 damage 18 times a round in no time.

That stuff does make monks into competent melee fellows, but you're still hanging out in competent melee fellow territory, rather than not-bad territory. I mean, bad is obviously subjective, so someone might even find a plain old PHB monk not-bad, on the basis of commoners, but they're pretty far down there. Moreover, I've seen the amount of craziness necessary to achieve those results, and I've gotta figure that I'd rather be doing something more interesting than particularly effective face punching after working that hard.


No magic items and no VoP would be an interesting question. I'm inclined to say some kind of summoner, so either Druid or Psion.
Pretty much, though it has more to do with the fact that they're casters (or close enough) than the fact that they have summoning specifically. It's a bit of a distinction without a difference though, as a tier one or two class is going to have access to summoning of some variety, if they want it. Ultimately, the list looks a lot like the one for VoP, except you can safely add on wizards and clerics, because they get their books and foci back (though the former is a somewhat solvable problem). Some classes are just fine without items. The majority, surprisingly enough, are from the set of classes capable of rewriting reality with their minds.