OOTS #957 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Lord Raziere]

hmmm....how is the vampire going to get out of this one? just lie again? sigh....knowing Roy he will probably believe Durkula over Belkar.....still probably not over the death thing....

also I like Belkar's talking about how people don't change instantly, only over time in bits you don't notice. poetic, considering his character development.....

[iyaerP]

My only real question is what is up with belkar's fingers? They are like camo fingers, blending in with the background.

[Reathin]

New comic is up.

Never been on when it changed :)

Love the take on the sunshine line.

[Jabberwok]

Wow, I think that bit about change is Belkar talking about himself :)

[deuxhero]

Eh, the max falling damage is pitiful and Belkar has levels in big HD classes. He should be OK.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Belkar has a point about drinking his blood. Seems that the High Priest of Hel is quite aware of his new vampiric abilities, though. :smalltongue: Wonder how Belkar will get out of this one.

[AdmiralCheez]

Good thing he got caught on the ballista bolt. Can't be easy to rescue someone from the ocean with a badly damaged airship.

[Rougn]

If this is how Belkar dies I am going to be mad.

[The Giant]

My only real question is what is up with belkar's fingers? They are like camo fingers, blending in with the background.

Transparency error. SHould be fixed now.

[Keltest]

Gasp, it sounds like Belkar is speaking from experience! Or Rich is being ironic. Both work.

[Reathin]

Belkar has a point about drinking his blood. Seems that the High Priest of Hel is quite aware of his new vampiric abilities, though. :smalltongue: Wonder how Belkar will get out of this one.

HPoH was using dominate back when they were surrounded by Tarquin's execution squad army, so that's already pretty well known.

As for Belkar, I assume someone will simply throw him a rope.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Eh, the max falling damage is pitiful and Belkar has levels in big HD classes. He should be OK.

Ah, but keep in mind he is falling into the open ocean, with no land for a while.

[Qaanol]

Ooh, Belkar actually got to the HPoH. I was not expecting that. And hooray for ballista bolts in the right place.

Still don't think Roy will believe Belkar. V might though.

[Porthos]

:belkar:: Until one day. you're just a little bit different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened.

'just a little bit different'

Never change, Belkar. Never change. :smallcool:

[Keltest]

You know, I would think that after all the times he's been mind controlled, Belkar would do something to make it at least a little harder for people to do that to him. Aren't there magical items that can help fight that stuff? Or stat bonuses?

Oh well. At least now he has more to go off of than a hunch.

[Mooplaid]

I know this may seem silly, but love the image of Belkar going "Wheeeee!" with swirly eyes and a huge grin. :P

[Lexible]

AHHHHHHH! That last panel FTW! That is one of the best back-handed insults (fore-handed insults?) I have ever encountered!

[SaintRidley]

Well, that's one way to attempt to deal with Belkar.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

HPoH was using dominate back when they were surrounded by Tarquin's execution squad army, so that's already pretty well known.
Thought of that only after I posted, sadly.


As for Belkar, I assume someone will simply throw him a rope.
Where's the fun in that? Actually, I'm not sure if that would work as well trying to rescue him from the water.

Edit: Dammit, totally misunderstood that last panel. Ignore around half my comments on this page.

[Keltest]

I know this may seem silly, but love the image of Belkar going "Wheeeee!" with swirly eyes and a huge grin. :P

I found it hilarious myself.

[Giggling Ghast]

I know this may seem silly, but love the image of Belkar going "Wheeeee!" with swirly eyes and a huge grin. :P

I like it even more that he's going "WHEEEE!" as he's jumping to his doom. :smallbiggrin:

[fishguy]

Belkar's will save is going to be a problem for him re HPoH

[Forikroder]

HPoH is finally starting to crack i see

[Kodan]

Now we know how Belkar dies.

My theory They're going to get separated during the search for the gate, and Belkar attacks Durkula thinking he could score a free win. Durkula then kills him.

[Vinsfeld]

"Did you mean:"

It really cracked me up. I laughed for about 5 minutes straight.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Never change, Belkar. Never change. :smallcool:

I like what you did there.

[Lexible]

Gasp, it sounds like Belkar is speaking from experience! Or Rich is being ironic. Both work.

Yeah, that frame seven was fun. I hope we get a good long while more of Mr. Bitterleaf's growth trajectory, however it shakes out at the end.

[FlawedParadigm]

Belkar's wishlist needs to include some +will save items quickly. He's been mind-controlled what, four or five times now?

[DaggerPen]

Welp, looks like Belkar didn't even wait for the HPOH to go below deck before confronting him. And five gp says Roy won't believe Belkar if he tells him about this little incident.

[Forikroder]

Welp, looks like Belkar didn't even wait for the HPOH to go below deck before confronting him. And five gp says Roy won't believe Belkar if he tells him about this little incident.

Durkula wont lie about it i think, hell tell the truth, Belkar was harassing him and started to get violent so he made him go cool his head for a bit

[Keltest]

Welp, looks like Belkar didn't even wait for the HPOH to go below deck before confronting him. And five gp says Roy won't believe Belkar if he tells him about this little incident.

I think its more likely that Roy will pretend that he doesn't believe it, while really deciding to keep a closer eye on "Durkon" from now on. While Roy doesn't want his old friend to be gone, he isn't stupid, and he clearly knows that, for all the physical similarities, the HPoH is not Durkon as he knew him.

[DaggerPen]

While I'm at it, Belkar's "HE HAD TO ORDER YOU NOT TO DRINK IT ALL!" Is actually really interesting, and not something I think anyone had pointed out. I'd kind of thought of the thrall as it's own personality separate from either Durkon or the HPOH due to its childlike behavior, but if we go with the assumption that the real personality was just being mind-controlled, then the real Durkon would have taken any opportunity to interpret orders in a way that protected his teammates possible. That's a really great touch - even with these months of speculation and careful analysis, The Giant still managed to throw in a completely logical follow-up to a plot point, and no one thought of it before.

[LuckoftheKevin]

LOL, wow that was amazing. yes belkar is awesome, but i love how he got durkula to the point of just saying screw this, jump overboard. lol, great comic

[WindStruck]

Durkula should just say it's like he has to constantly battle an evil spirit inside him, but they need to wait to cleanse him properly or they'll never be able to bring him back to normal again. Then a few random sabotages later, a few dead halfling rangers, and he'll be home free to bring about Ragnarok.

[Anarion]

Well, sadly for Belkar, his new found insight does not equate to new found improvement on his will saves. Still, that does seem like something Durkon would never do. He could have killed Belkar.

[zimmerwald1915]

You know, I would think that after all the times he's been mind controlled, Belkar would do something to make it at least a little harder for people to do that to him. Aren't there magical items that can help fight that stuff? Or stat bonuses?
:belkar: Hey, Ears! Remember that kobold?
:vaarsuvius: I remember altercations between you and several kobolds, halfling. To which do you refer?
:belkar: You know, the one Mister Scruffy—
:vaarsuvius: Yes.
:belkar: You know the spell he was under?
:vaarsuvius: You refer to dominate person. And no, I will not cast it on one of the crew so that your cat may have its way with them.
:belkar: But—
:vaarsuvius: Nor on a random passerby in, above, or under Tinkertown.
:belkar: That's not what I want! It's just...do you know how to block it?
:vaarsuvius: At one time I did. It is not a feat I can repeat at this time. There are, however, a number of abjurations that can protect you. Perhaps you can find a ringmonger in Tinkertown.
:belkar: You mean I've gotta wait til we land?
:vaarsuvius: Why the hurry to shield your faculties?
:belkar: No reason.
:vaarsuvius: I see. In that case, leave my cabin. I may still be able to salvage this scroll if I am left undisturbed to do so.
:blackwing: *hrrk*

[Pronounceable]

I don't get how Belkar always gets the best lines. Is he bribing the Giant?

[Angelalex242]

...Ordering Belkar to jump overboard...that kinda tears it. Durkula can't really explain that away.

Unless...

"He's been doing harm to sentient beings for longer then I can remember. Ordering him to suicide would save countless lives."

Which is about when Roy remembers 489, where the Deva specifically said cutting his throat in his sleep is not the answer...

[Lappy9001]

Hmm, Belkar seems far more observant than ever before. Maybe he actually put some points into his Wisdom score? Not enough, you know, to increase his abysmal Will saves, but maybe a little :smalltongue:

[Esprit15]

Minor nitpicking: Dominate cannot cause the target to carry out obviously self destructive actions. Of course, plot totally supercedes that.

[Lappy9001]

Minor nitpicking: Dominate cannot cause the target to carry out obviously self destructive actions. Of course, plot totally supercedes that.Maybe the command was just to "jump away" and with Belkar's jump ring and probably very good Jump skill, overboard is a likely direction on an airship.

Hey, why not try reading the comic guy?

[Forikroder]

...Ordering Belkar to jump overboard...that kinda tears it. Durkula can't really explain that away.

Unless...

"He's been doing harm to sentient beings for longer then I can remember. Ordering him to suicide would save countless lives."

Which is about when Roy remembers 489, where the Deva specifically said cutting his throat in his sleep is not the answer...

he jsut needs to use a self defense defense

[CoffeeIncluded]

Huh, didn't notice that with the order. Very interesting.

[Crusher]

That's a good strip right there.

[Leviting]

Minor nitpicking: Dominate cannot cause the target to carry out obviously self destructive actions. Of course, plot totally supercedes that.

Fall damage probably isn't enough to be considered "destructive"

[Sith_Happens]

Durkula wont lie about it i think, hell tell the truth, Belkar was harassing him and started to get violent so he made him go cool his head for a bit

This. Durkula isn't hiding the fact that he's Evil, so obviously dominating Belkar to jump off an airship is just his idea of a practical joke now. Roy will be unamused and tell him not to do it again, and that'll be the end of it.

If anything makes Roy suspicious, it will actually be if Durkula keeps being nearly as polite about Belkar's accusations as he was just now. Durkon would have called Belkar "a daft fool" and told him to piss off.


:belkar: Hey, Ears! Remember that kobold?
:vaarsuvius: I remember altercations between you and several kobolds, halfling. To which do you refer?
:belkar: You know, the one Mister Scruffy—
:vaarsuvius: Yes.
:belkar: You know the spell he was under?
:vaarsuvius: You refer to dominate person. And no, I will not cast it on one of the crew so that your cat may have its way with them.
:belkar: But—
:vaarsuvius: Nor on a random passerby in, above, or under Tinkertown.
:belkar: That's not what I want! It's just...do you know how to block it?
:vaarsuvius: At one time I did. It is not a feat I can repeat at this time. There are, however, a number of abjurations that can protect you. Perhaps you can find a ringmonger in Tinkertown.
:belkar: You mean I've gotta wait til we land?
:vaarsuvius: Why the hurry to shield your faculties?
:belkar: No reason.
:vaarsuvius: I see. In that case, leave my cabin. I may still be able to salvage this scroll if I am left undisturbed to do so.
:blackwing: *hrrk*

Oh man, I could totally see this exact conversation happening word for word. Although V totally can cast Mind Blank now if s/he has it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh man, I could totally see this exact conversation happening word for word. Although V totally can cast Mind Blank now if s/he has it.
"If s/he has it" being the operative phrase. I wrote the scene under the assumption that she, on principle, hasn't learned any of the spells she borrowed from the splices.

[Morgan Wick]

You know, I would think that after all the times he's been mind controlled, Belkar would do something to make it at least a little harder for people to do that to him. Aren't there magical items that can help fight that stuff? Or stat bonuses?

Oh well. At least now he has more to go off of than a hunch.


Belkar's wishlist needs to include some +will save items quickly. He's been mind-controlled what, four or five times now?

Um... I can only think of one before this, when Nale hit him with Charm Person, and it just managed to last several strips...

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Minor nitpicking: Dominate cannot cause the target to carry out obviously self destructive actions. Of course, plot totally supercedes that.

Belkar probably intentionally landed on the ballista, then. Following the letter of the command, but not the self-destructive intent.

[Roland Itiative]

That explanation about change of character is kind of insightful of Belkar, I wonder if he actually noticed that it's happening to himself, or if he thinks his "change" is entirely a charade like he mentioned before.

Also, I wonder if the "undead" type became one of his favourite enemies after the Mark of Justice thing, even though he said he didn't like killing them before.

[Mr. Pants]

First Tsukiko, now this!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Um... I can only think of one before this, when Nale hit him with Charm Person, and it just managed to last several strips...

Malack also dominated him in the pyramid.

[HalfTangible]

Belkar's actually incorrect regarding the blood-drinking order, albeit not in a way that makes the vampire look any better. See, what actually happened was Durkon said he was hungry for blood, and then Malack directed him to Belkar. Not quite the same thing as being ordered (as Durkula implied), not quite 'has to order you not to drink it all' (as Belkar said).

Belkar's correct in spirit, though, so close enough really.

Oh, and one more thing? Belkar's lines on character growth and that threat he throws at Durkula in the very last panel are friggen gold.

[137beth]

Ah, so now we know Belkar is aware of his (non-faked) character development.

[Tiiba]

How does Belkar know that Malack HAD to order Durkon not to drink it all? All he knows is that he did give that order. It may have been redundant.

[Darth Paul]

Welp, looks like Belkar didn't even wait for the HPOH to go below deck before confronting him. And five gp says Roy won't believe Belkar if he tells him about this little incident.

I thought 10gp was the traditional bet? :smallwink:

So, Belkar will just have to become much, much more calculating than we have ever seen him before if he is going to get through this voyage (or another confrontation with Durkula, full stop) alive, since he is up against an opponent who can mind control him to do any damn thing that isn't immediately, obviously fatal, and unless he's very very lucky (natural 20 Will save kind of lucky) Belkar will do it. That's just me restating the obvious while I think as I type. I have no idea how Belkar, and by extention the rest of the OotS, is going to handle Durkula.

I think Belkar's next move should be to Haley, not Roy. She is blessed with the most natural suspicion as well as people sense, and also may be able to convince Roy where Belkar can't.

[SnowballMan]

I want the second to last panel printed on a t-shirt. No context, just that one panel.

[t209]

So it's not Belkar's Birthday yet.

[Bulldog Psion]

Sadly, Belkar has been the one with the most situational awareness since at least the pyramid, and maybe before. :smalleek:

He's almost turned into more of a mildly tragic anti-hero than a complete murdering slimeball, especially with his world-weary recognition that he's changed, and realistic appraisal of the fact that his teammates do not, cannot, and never will realize it.

[Broken Crown]

[conversation between Belkar and V]

That would require an uncharacteristic amount of foresight on Belkar's part.

Which, given that he's already been Charmed/Dominated a few times previously, isn't saying much. And there is that character growth....

Speaking of which, I continue to love the enthusiastic way Belkar throws himself into whatever task he's mind-controlled to perform.

[HMS Invincible]

It is uncommon knowledge that high level characters can easily survive long distance falls. The previous falling scene was with Tarquin demonstrates that Elan knows about it. Which makes me think that the vampire knows about it. The vampire probably knows it can't kill Belkar with falling damage, so he'll spin it as a prank. Plotwise, if you can't kill someone with an order, might as well turn it into a joke.

[Jack Frost]

You know, I would think that after all the times he's been mind controlled, Belkar would do something to make it at least a little harder for people to do that to him. Aren't there magical items that can help fight that stuff? Or stat bonuses?

Oh well. At least now he has more to go off of than a hunch.

Well, there's feats. If Durkon continues being a vampire the next time Belkar gets a new feat, I'd expect him to choose something for that. Like Iron Will... or that feat in the Libris Mortis that specialized in fighting vampires (becoming immune to their domination or something like that)... He's a ranger with favored enemy: undead, there's a lot of choices.

And


I don't get how Belkar always gets the best lines. Is he bribing the Giant?

Shhhh! It won't be pretty if he finds out you know it.

[Bulldog Psion]

It is uncommon knowledge that high level characters can easily survive long distance falls. The previous falling scene was with Tarquin demonstrates that Elan knows about it. Which makes me think that the vampire knows about it. The vampire probably knows it can't kill Belkar with falling damage, so he'll spin it as a prank. Plotwise, if you can't kill someone with an order, might as well turn it into a joke.

Well, there's always the drowning at the bottom to consider, too. Not to mention that actually finding one halfling in a storm-tossed ocean isn't necessarily easy, either.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Um... I can only think of one before this, when Nale hit him with Charm Person, and it just managed to last several strips...

I think this was number four. Charmed in Azure City, Charmed in the pyramid, Dominated in the pyramid, and now Dominated on the airship.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, there's always the drowning at the bottom to consider, too. Not to mention that actually finding one halfling in a storm-tossed ocean isn't necessarily easy, either.
Bah, if he survived the fall and managed to Wild Empathy a whale to the surface so he could stand on it, he could probably jump back up to the airship.

[Aquillion]

"If s/he has it" being the operative phrase. I wrote the scene under the assumption that she, on principle, hasn't learned any of the spells she borrowed from the splices.Mind Blank isn't necessary; for the purposes of warding off a vampire's mind control, the level one spell Protection from Evil will work just as well. It has a shorter duration, but lasts long enough if V knows to cast it on Belkar whenever things start to go down (and it can be cast after mind control has hit someone to suppress it, to boot.)

[Peelee]

I like the effect around the vampire's eyes when he Dominates. Subtle, yet effective.

[zimmerwald1915]

Mind Blank isn't necessary; for the purposes of warding off a vampire's mind control, the level one spell Protection from Evil will work just as well. It has a shorter duration, but lasts long enough if V knows to cast it on Belkar whenever things start to go down (and it can be cast after mind control has hit someone to suppress it, to boot.)
What of it? V never once cast protection from [alignment] in almost a thousand strips; she's no more likely to have it than mind blank. In fact, the one time she did intervene in one of Belkar's run-ins with the Enchantment school, she attempted (and failed) to dispel the enchantment. Neither she nor Durkon even tried protection from [alignment].

And again, "if V knows to cast it" is the operative phrase. There's no particular reason to believe it'll be true.

[b_jonas]

That explanation about change of character is kind of insightful of Belkar, I wonder if he actually noticed that it's happening to himself, or if he thinks his "change" is entirely a charade like he mentioned before.

He certainly did, see strip 807. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html)


Belkar's wishlist needs to include some +will save items quickly. He's been mind-controlled what, four or five times now?

There's an easy solution for that. He just has to let the vampire drink all his blood so he can turn to a vampire. Vampires are immune to mind control.

[Teapot Salty]

He took favored enemy undead then?

[Arutema]

Hmm, Belkar seems far more observant than ever before. Maybe he actually put some points into his Wisdom score? Not enough, you know, to increase his abysmal Will saves, but maybe a little :smalltongue:


He took favored enemy undead then?

Well, rangers do get a bonus on Sense Motive checks against favored enemies.

[GAAD]

Pffthahahaha
...
Right. I have to make a meaningful post or else the Flamewar Fairies shall smite mine uncreative hands with the holy power of the sword Reason, forged in the flames of Mount Forum at the dawn of time [read: 2003].
I like how Durkula gives away his ruse completely with one expression: :smallbiggrin:
If he was telling the truth, he wouldn't have the "Eureka!" face he sports in panel 8, just a normal mouth shape. Which Belkar COULD have added to his growing list of evidence had he not had his eyes closed at the time. :smallsigh:
Oh silicon! The fairies have sent advanced scouts! Hand me a fly swatter!

[gooddragon1]

Belkar's last comment in this comic makes me think he sounds like Sergeant Hartman.

http://www.edadrian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/FullMetalSgt.jpg

[Morquard]

Woah, damnit! It looks like Belkar is more on to him than most people gave him credit for.

I'm torn between "So, this is how he dies then" and "Naw, he survives this, because everyone expects HPoH to kill him somehow and the Giant probably has something more special in mind".

How could he survive? V could see it and cast Feather Fall. He's high level, might have the HPs to survive like Tarquin. He has some magic item that reduces falling damage.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Also, Durkula just completely blew his cover to Belkar-he just confirmed that he's not so similar to how he used to be. The old Durkon would have not risked a companion's life and do something so outright unlawful and dangerous-of course, this may backfire if Belkar continues to voice his seemingly insane opinion randomly without proving it (and he's probably doesn't have the wisdom to set up a trap for Durkon to try it again with V or someone magic-savvy nearby).

[Heksefatter]

Hmmmm, one of the things that Durkula is doing wrong is that he's trying too hard. If Durkula was Durkon, even a twisted version, he wouldn't be so comfortable with being a vampire.

[ChristianSt]

Mind = blown.

I really didn't suspect that turn. I don't really see a way for HPoH to swindle out of this.

I think it was a rather bad move for Belkar for so openly state that he doesn't buy it (because I think it would be better to let him believe that everything is alright so he likelier slips cover), but it worked if his plan was to bait HPoH to make something really stupid. Which he just did.

[factotum]

So it's not Belkar's Birthday yet.

:smallconfused: The prophecy is that Belkar will die sometime after his next birthday (e.g. savour his next birthday cake), not that he will die *on* his birthday...

[skim172]

Also, Durkula just completely blew his cover to Belkar-he just confirmed that he's not so similar to how he used to be. The old Durkon would have not risked a companion's life and do something so outright unlawful and dangerous-of course, this may backfire if Belkar continues to voice his seemingly insane opinion randomly without proving it (and he's probably doesn't have the wisdom to set up a trap for Durkon to try it again with V or someone magic-savvy nearby).

Jerkon has fully grasped that no one listens to Belkar and that he can pretty much do anything he wants to Belkar and gain at most a reluctant reprimand. "Dude, I know it's not easy to stop yourself, but don't kill him yet."

V hates him, Haley doesn't care, and Roy seems to sincerely want Belkar dead. Only Elan might feel bad, because he doesn't like death in general. Belkar railing against Durkon, and his attempts to force them to accept a truth they are subconsciously denying, is only making them hate him more.

And Jerkface has picked up on that. He could skin Belkar alive and wear him like a coat, and they probably would just ask "Durkon, do you have a good reason? Oh, you do? Good. Well, let's get going."

[Terrador]

Love Belkar in this strip. Character development at its finest.

...that Belkar will sneak off and steal Durkula's staff, only to chuck it overboard. That would be just fantastic, even if it doesn't accomplish anything.

[Askthepizzaguy]

"Weeeeeeeeeeeeee!"


Couldn't stop laughing. Magnificent.

[BranMan]

He took favored enemy undead then?

I would agree, but considering his outlook on undead in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html, there's a low chance that he would actually choose undead as a favored enemy. It seems more like he has accidentally become better at fighting them.

[ti'esar]

I confess that I don't understand why anyone thinks Belkar is in danger of dying at this moment. Even by the low standards of Belkar death predictions, this isn't that dangerous a situation.

The real question is whether the HPoH was actually trying to kill him or not. It doesn't really make sense that he would, but it's hard to see why he'd tip his hand to Belkar like this, even knowing that the Order is unlikely to listen to anything Belkar says.

[Ravens_cry]

Belkar's last line stands up there for me with 'Sexy Shoeless God of War!' for Belkar's best lines.:belkar:

[Otomodachi]

Belkar's last line stands up there for me with 'Sexy Shoeless God of War!' for Belkar's best lines.:belkar:

So true!

Do we still spoil our predictions for Rich? Belkar's story now makes me feel so sad, and in my opinion it's a tribute to the creator when they can MAKE me feel something so strongly.

It's so sad that Belkar finally growing, appreciating someone, actually KNOWING someone is so (to me) apparently going to kill him. Thanks for the tragedy. :(

[CrispyCriminal]

Belkar you FOOL!

He just gave Durkula the ammo he needs to stay a gun above of him. By being told this valuable toss of philosophy (from someone who is anything but philosophical), he will apply it in his future endeavors. Which in this case can mean he has a free pass to put belkar in his place when he needs to, like he has before but now 'a little differently'.

Sure the order will frown upon it, but the relationship with the order has always been tricky and rife with pranks to get at one another.

[jidasfire]

Belkar will be fine, and Durkula has a pretty good means of getting out of this. The fact is, he ordered Belkar to jump off the ship, but not to his death, thus leaving him stuck hanging for the rest of the trip. It's the sort of thing that would have in the past just happened to Belkar as the just desserts for his actions, and the others would continue to see it that way. It would actually be remarkably stupid for the HPoH to kill him at this juncture, because it would only prove Belkar's suspicions correct. Durkon has taken minor bits of revenge on Belkar in the past (such as the protection from heat thing in the desert), so this will both get the halfling off his back as well as further prove to the others he's his normal self.

[dmaxno]

Great comic.
On Belkar's death, I wonder if HPoH will dominate him and send him to attack others on his behalf. if he makes the odds truly terrible, that would just make an easier way to dispatch Belkar and advance its own agenda.
I hope that Belkar at least dies doing something more meaningful, but i guess I got no option other than 'wait and see'.
Also, about rescuing Belkar from the ocean, couldn't V get to him fairly easily?

[Emperordaniel]

I laughed so much at those last three panels. :smallbiggrin:

[Nenec]

Loving Belkar as usual and just every day more. And he's being so incredibly rational now. I don't think HPoH can just tell Roy he did it cause Belkar was annoying him, throwing him overboard in the mid of the sea when on a damage ship that possibly can't rescue him would be a bit too much. Especially counting how real Durkon would have never done anything similar. And the arrow was just huge luck. But alas I fear Roy won't believe Belkar as usual.

I really laughed at the "browser error". The memories of Durkon and Belkar are not really....deeply personal. :smallbiggrin: Great way of showing it!

[Neoriceisgood]

This seems like the start of a beautiful friendship. :smallcool:

[Dont]

I can imagine Durkula 'accidentally' firing that giant crossbow.

[The Pilgrim]

So, this is how it's going to be. Belkar knows, and has a full rational logic case, but no one else will believe him because, well, he's Belkar.

[Killer Angel]

That is really the greatest and funniest insult to a vampire EVER! :smallbiggrin:

[gerryq]

Durkula wont lie about it i think, hell tell the truth, Belkar was harassing him and started to get violent so he made him go cool his head for a bit

That's what he has to say now. But if Belkar wasn't actually going to kill him but just watch him, taking him out immediately may not have been the greatest play with regard to staying in the good books of the rest of the crew.

Anyway, here's to the wheels of drama starting to turn once more! And nice speech by Belkar.

[elros]

Why this update rocks:
1) it proves that Belkar had pretty much no positive encounters with anyone on the OOTS,
2) insightful character development from Belkar, which makes me think that the characters feel bad about their relationship with Belkar (at least Durkula does),
3) embellishes the conflict between these two, so now I am convinced that Belkar's death will be tied to redeeming Durkon or destroying the High Priest of Hel,
4) another example of Belkar's pitiful will save, which will probably be important later in the story. At the very least, it will make another direct conflict with Durkula unlikely,
5) the reaction of the crew to Belkar's jump ("Aw, looked like the little guy jumped!),
6) now we know that characters remember what happens around them when they are dominated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html). Maybe important later.

[gerryq]

...Ordering Belkar to jump overboard...that kinda tears it. Durkula can't really explain that away.

Unless...

"He's been doing harm to sentient beings for longer then I can remember. Ordering him to suicide would save countless lives."

Which is about when Roy remembers 489, where the Deva specifically said cutting his throat in his sleep is not the answer...

"He was trying to kill me. Let me explain again about Lawful Evil."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

All right, now that I've gotten some sleep and can read the comic properly, that second to last panel makes me laugh so very much, just like many others. :smallamused:

[Durkoala]

Really good comic.
Having a bit of trouble with Belkar, Durkula?
(I like how his speech patterns are slipping now he has no memories to draw on.)
Both the memory search failure and 'Jump overboard' are really funny. (I literally laughed at Belkar's jump... and covered my hands in snot because I've got a cold. :smallyuk:)

[DaggerPen]

Jerkon

That is the BEST not-Durkon name EVER.

[St Fan]

I would agree, but considering his outlook on undead in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html, there's a low chance that he would actually choose undead as a favored enemy. It seems more like he has accidentally become better at fighting them.

A Ranger can pick a new favored enemy every 5 levels. Even if he didn't bother with undead until this point, his time fighting them in Azure City certainly motivated him to pick it up since then, propably at 15th level.

[M.A.D]

Great mother of character development... And Belkar can't even complain to anyone about it, since they could care as much as Durkula about throwing the Belkster overboard. Well, to what I know about him, he wouldn't complain to the right person anyway. V and Elan would have been good to hear what he had to say, and probably Haley, if she's standing somewhere close at the time.. but otherwise, I can only see Belkar isolating himself from the part party at this rate, despite getting closer and closer to Neutral. Probably kinda like a misunderstood anti-hero at some point. His death would be a tragic one.

[Charity322]

AHHHHHHH! That last panel FTW! That is one of the best back-handed insults (fore-handed insults?) I have ever encountered!

Best insult ever!

[Keltest]

You know, its occurred to me that Belkar is now the only one in the order with a cloak, but we don't know why he wears it. He puts the hood up when he's being stealthy (or when its raining) but is it magical, or just camouflage?

[Killer Angel]

V and Elan would have been good to hear what he had to say, and probably Haley, if she's standing somewhere close at the time..

And V. should know that Belkar has a sense for this kind of things (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html)...

[Kareasint]

That last line was awesome.

[Darth Paul]

You know, its occurred to me that Belkar is now the only one in the order with a cloak, but we don't know why he wears it. He puts the hood up when he's being stealthy (or when its raining) but is it magical, or just camouflage?

Or just an homage to "That Tool Frodo", as Belkar would undoubtedly call him.

[Kish]

It doesn't really make sense that he would, but it's hard to see why he'd tip his hand to Belkar like this, even knowing that the Order is unlikely to listen to anything Belkar says.
Which suggests that the High Priest's ability to control his temper is distinctly limited.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

You know, its occurred to me that Belkar is now the only one in the order with a cloak, but we don't know why he wears it. He puts the hood up when he's being stealthy (or when its raining) but is it magical, or just camouflage?

I don't think it serves any specific purpose. It being an homage to the LOTR movie hobbits makes sense.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or just an homage to "That Tool Frodo", as Belkar would undoubtedly call him.

Nah, he already calls Bilbo a tool. He'd call Frodo a putz or something.

[czieg]

Loving Belkar as usual and just every day more. And he's being so incredibly rational now. I don't think HPoH can just tell Roy he did it cause Belkar was annoying him, throwing him overboard in the mid of the sea when on a damage ship that possibly can't rescue him would be a bit too much. Especially counting how real Durkon would have never done anything similar. And the arrow was just huge luck. But alas I fear Roy won't believe Belkar as usual.

I really laughed at the "browser error". The memories of Durkon and Belkar are not really....deeply personal. :smallbiggrin: Great way of showing it!

I have to agree with this on all counts. If Belkar had waited until they were below decks, Belkar would have much more evidence on his side.

[Emperordaniel]

Or just an homage to "That Tool Frodo", as Belkar would undoubtedly call him.

Surely you mean "That Tool Frudu (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)"? :smallwink:

[DreadArchon]

That was excellent, one of the best strips in a while. :smallbiggrin:

[Durkoala]

Which suggests that the High Priest's ability to control his temper is distinctly limited.
He also has no idea how to handle Belkar and there's no sign of the halfling stopping anytime soon. It might just be best to see if he can covertly bump him off.
If this doesn't turn into a slightly more serious Vaarsuvius vs Belkar, I will be disappointed. :smallbiggrin:


That is the BEST not-Durkon name EVER.
I like 'Yeerkon', 'Durk Malakssen' and 'Hippo'. I use Durkula becase the others are a reference I don't know others will get, probably not that accurate (Durk Helssen?) and a silly one I made up the other week that amuses me more than it should. Respectively :smallwink:

[PsyBomb]

Tons of character development, and not just on Belkar's part. Love the best-fluffed Favored Enemy ever :)

The fact that HPoH got a 404 on friendly memories of Belkar is... odd, and what stands out to me here (even more than the last 3 panels). They have been traveling and adventuring together for a LONG time. Even though it was played for laughs, the fact is that Durkon just managed to indirectly DENY the spirit some info he needed.

[Ghost Nappa]

I get the impression that Belkar will be missed upon his passing.

The rest of the Order won't appreciate how much they miss Cassandro Van Hellsing until after he gets an opportunity for an "I told you so" moment.

Loving this update SOOOO much.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The fact that HPoH got a 404 on friendly memories of Belkar is... odd, and what stands out to me here (even more than the last 3 panels). They have been traveling and adventuring together for a LONG time. Even though it was played for laughs, the fact is that Durkon just managed to indirectly DENY the spirit some info he needed.

They haven't actually been together for all that long of a time. Probably only over a year, altogether. I doubt that there are any deep moments that they shared together. Most of their interactions seem to consist of the things that the error message points out, and I can't think of a friendly moment they shared. So, Durkon didn't deny him anything, the information was simply nonexistent.

[Rorrik]

Belkar, you are the greatest. I knew I was justified in having you be my favorite. "Wheeeee" indeed, a classic! And now we know the quality if your skin, it's the little things.

Tribute to Belkar. :belkar:

[dtilque]

I like the fact that one of the suggested searches is "Spontaneous nicknames from Belkar". Hey, we have an index thread of those.

[Kish]

(Durk Helssen?
Even Hel doesn't deny that Nergal's snake sired her High Priest. If you look at it as Hel being somehow the High Priest's true sire, Roy's relationship with Eugene makes little sense since after all, Odin is Roy's true father.

Tons of character development, and not just on Belkar's part. Love the best-fluffed Favored Enemy ever :)

The fact that HPoH got a 404 on friendly memories of Belkar is... odd, and what stands out to me here (even more than the last 3 panels). They have been traveling and adventuring together for a LONG time. Even though it was played for laughs, the fact is that Durkon just managed to indirectly DENY the spirit some info he needed.
I'm sorry to be blunt, but that interpretation seems to hinge on ignoring the relationship Belkar has had with Durkon (and the rest of the Order, for that matter) for that LONG time. Search through the past 956 comics as much as you like, and throw in On the Origins of PCs; you'll have no better luck finding what the High Priest was asking for than the High Priest did.

[DaggerPen]

I like the fact that one of the suggested searches is "Spontaneous nicknames from Belkar". Hey, we have an index thread of those.

Yeah, I was wondering if that was a shout-out.

Also, man, I don't think I've *ever* liked Belkar as much as I have been liking him here. Still Evil, but he really has grown.

[Rodin]

Even Hel doesn't deny that Nergal's snake sired her High Priest. If you look at it as Hel being somehow the High Priest's true sire, Roy's relationship with Eugene makes little sense since after all, Odin is Roy's true father.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but that interpretation seems to hinge on ignoring the relationship Belkar has had with Durkon (and the rest of the Order, for that matter) for that LONG time. Search through the past 956 comics as much as you like, and throw in On the Origins of PCs; you'll have no better luck finding what the High Priest was asking for than the High Priest did.

I would also note that the 404 doesn't mean there are no friendly memories. After all, they played Parcheesi together so there are bound to be some nice memories out there. However, there's no "deep bonding that make us blood brothers" sort of stuff - it's all just friendly colleague stuff. You can have fun with even your most hated co-workers at the company Christmas party - doesn't mean you can make them trust you when the chips are down.

[LordRahl6]

Well, man did I call this bit about Belkar recognizing the HPoH as not Durkon based upon "Evil recognizes Evil" in the Belkar and Durkon thread. Also loved the ending liner in this strip. There is DEFINATELY NO WAY that those two could get along despite both being Evil alignment. For one thing Belkar is Chaotic whereas the High Priest of Hel is Lawful(?):smallamused:

[Kish]

Yeah, I was wondering if that was a shout-out.
Cart before horse, I think. That thread exists because "Belkar gives people spontaneous insulting nicknames" is so common that it's one of the three primary interactions he's had with Durkon, not vice versa.

I could of course be wrong.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

For one thing Belkar is Chaotic whereas the High Priest of Hel is Lawful(?):smallamused:

He presumably is, since the spirit is probably meant to be like Durkon's alignment, only reflected on the Evil side of the axis.

[DaggerPen]

Cart before horse, I think. That thread exists because "Belkar gives people spontaneous insulting nicknames" is so common that it's one of the three primary interactions he's had with Durkon, not vice versa.

I could of course be wrong.

Well, my thought was that, while it's something The Giant includes a lot, it's not something he'd really think about until a thread pointed it out. But I could be wrong.

[Ave]

I know this may seem silly, but love the image of Belkar going "Wheeeee!" with swirly eyes and a huge grin. :P

I laughed so much from that single frame, i got hurt.

[ChristianSt]

Cart before horse, I think. That thread exists because "Belkar gives people spontaneous insulting nicknames" is so common that it's one of the three primary interactions he's had with Durkon, not vice versa.

I could of course be wrong.

I maintain that thread and agree with you. I would find it highly unlikely that the Giant would give a shout-out to a random forum thread. I kinda like the thought that a thread I maintain gets a shout-out, but I don't see any reason why that should be the case.

Belkar has just knows how people should be called and likes to demonstrate his knowledge :smalltongue:


But to go a bit more on-topic (or off-topic - I'm not sure):

While I don't think it will happen (since the comic kinda moved away from being so gag-oriented), I would find it totally hilarious if one of the next strips will feature Mr. Jones and Mr. Phil Rodriguez handling the HPoH situation by dragging him off for infringing Belkar's scam-patent :smallcool:

[Psyren]

Belkar quite forgot that not all undead are created equal. Handling a horde of Ghouls and Zombies does not at all mean you are ready to tackle vampires.


I laughed so much from that single frame, i got hurt.

Ditto :smallbiggrin:


Even Hel doesn't deny that Nergal's snake sired her High Priest. If you look at it as Hel being somehow the High Priest's true sire, Roy's relationship with Eugene makes little sense since after all, Odin is Roy's true father.

"Your dark spirit was birthed in my hall" indicates that Nergal was merely the surrogate or catalyst. "Helssen" or "Helsson" or whatever the syntax would likely be accurate.

I still prefer "Darkon" though.

[warmachine]

Belkar isn't fundamentally opposed to jumping overboard? Freaky!

[Unregistered]

Could someone please help me with Belkar's phrase in the 7th panel, first speech balloon (I am not a native speaker)? I think I get the general meaning: the way the vampire drank Belkar's blood and the way how it handled it afterwards somehow proved to Belkar that it is not Durkon anymore. But somehow the words used confuse me. Maybe someone could rephrase it with different words for me?

Thanks in advance.

[Gift Jeraff]

"Your dark spirit was birthed in my hall" indicates that Nergal was merely the surrogate or catalyst. "Helssen" or "Helsson" or whatever the syntax would likely be accurate.

I think Kish's point is that presumably all souls are birthed in some god's hall.

[ChristianSt]

Could someone please help me with Belkar's phrase in the 7th panel, first speech balloon (I am not a native speaker)? I think I get the general meaning: the way the vampire drank Belkar's blood and the way how it handled it afterwards somehow proved to Belkar that it is not Durkon anymore. But somehow the words used confuse me. Maybe someone could rephrase it with different words for me?

Thanks in advance.

Belkar says that Durkon went from "forgiving me for not saving him" (recalling 877, Panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) to "slurping my blood". The first is saying that Durkon didn't fault Belkar for not helping (and honestly, in that spot it would pretty easy to blame Belkar for it), while the second comments on Vampire!Durkon nearly draining Belkar to death (even needing order to restrain himself). In the later balloons of that panel he explains that such a drastic change needs time and that it is impossible to pinpoint a moment such a change occurred.

(If you can pinpoint more exactly where you have problems, I can try to give more precise help, though I hope this makes it clear already.)

[Lheticus]

Everybody run for your lives! BELKAR SUCCEEDED AT A WISDOM CHECK! XD

[Kish]

I think Kish's point is that presumably all souls are birthed in some god's hall.
Indeed. Rich has said that vampires have as much free will as the living do, that the High Priest of Hel chooses to serve the god who created him as Durkon chooses to serve Thor. So the statement, "Malack was a catalyst for Hel to create the entity who is now her High Priest," is neither more nor less accurate than, "Eugene and Sara were a catalyst for (some Northern god, probably Odin) to create Roy Greenhilt."

[xyzchyx]

A Vampire's charming ability functions as the spell Dominate Person

But, from the description of the spell, at d20srd.org:

Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out.

Now I know that story trumps rules for something like this, but going by the book, Belkar would have consciously known that Durkon was attempting to dominate him, and because of the self-destructive nature of Durkon's command, Belkar would not have followed it (It would also give a plus to his saving throw to resist the compulsion entirely).


Fall damage probably isn't enough to be considered "destructive"Probably not, actually...

[Kish]

Look at that last panel. It wasn't obviously self-destructive; it wasn't even unobviously self-destructive. It was annoying and somewhat humiliating. No one in the comic thought for a second that Belkar would actually die from the jump.

[DaggerPen]

Belkar says that Durkon went from "forgiving me for not saving him" (recalling 877, Panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) to "slurping my blood". The first is saying that Durkon didn't fault Belkar for not helping (and honestly, in that spot it would pretty easy to blame Belkar for it), while the second comments on Vampire!Durkon nearly draining Belkar to death (even needing order to restrain himself). In the later balloons of that panel he explains that such a drastic change needs time and that it is impossible to pinpoint a moment such a change occurred.

(If you can pinpoint more exactly where you have problems, I can try to give more precise help, though I hope this makes it clear already.)

To add on: The High Priest of Hel argues that he only drank Belkar's blood because Malack made him. Belkar's point is that if that was true, Malack wouldn't have had to tell him not to drain the last drop. The idea is that the real Durkon wouldn't have drunk enough to kill a teammate unless Malack specifically said to.

[Keltest]

Look at that last panel. It wasn't obviously self-destructive; it wasn't even unobviously self-destructive. It was annoying and somewhat humiliating. No one in the comic thought for a second that Belkar would actually die from the jump.

That's a bit of a stretch. While we the readers know that its unlikely for Belkar to be killed off like that, id put money on Belkar being unaware of that ballista, let alone aware enough to angle his jump in such a way as to deliberately catch his cloak on it without it tearing and dropping him anyway. The HPoH might have been, but as far as I know the spell doesn't take into account what the caster knows about the action.

[Osiris]

You know, Durkula is not very good at bluffing. This may unfold in a couple of comics. It probably won't, but I can't be the only one who wants Durkon back!

On another note, Belkar really needs better will saves. The Bull-headed feat may help, like Iron Will but actually something that makes sense for Belkar

And finally, I can't help but laugh at those last panels! :smallbiggrin:

[Pheldagriff]

I fear that Belkar will accidently drop when they attempt to get him onboard again and then drown, and that will be it.
Narratively, I can't fathom a way to keep Belkar alive and NOT ruin the story. I see no realistic way how Durkula would weasel out of this situation otherwise.

[Unregistered]

Belkar says that Durkon went from "forgiving me for not saving him" (recalling 877, Panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) to "slurping my blood". The first is saying that Durkon didn't fault Belkar for not helping (and honestly, in that spot it would pretty easy to blame Belkar for it), while the second comments on Vampire!Durkon nearly draining Belkar to death (even needing order to restrain himself). In the later balloons of that panel he explains that such a drastic change needs time and that it is impossible to pinpoint a moment such a change occurred.

(If you can pinpoint more exactly where you have problems, I can try to give more precise help, though I hope this makes it clear already.)

Thanks, that makes it perfectly clear - somehow I thought "to flip from" was an idiom I didn't know /understand, instead of simply meaning "to switch from". Don't know how I didn't think of that simple meaning. Oh well, sometimes I just don't think straight.

Again, thanks!

[factotum]

I see no realistic way how Durkula would weasel out of this situation otherwise.

Everybody assumes that Belkar is just going to tell everyone what Durkula did, but I think it's far more likely he'll keep schtum (since he's already tried telling Roy this isn't Durkon and got nowhere) and just try to "deal" with the problem in his own, sharp-metal-into-flesh sort of way.

[Terrador]

I fear that Belkar will accidently drop when they attempt to get him onboard again and then drown, and that will be it.
Narratively, I can't fathom a way to keep Belkar alive and NOT ruin the story. I see no realistic way how Durkula would weasel out of this situation otherwise.

It's a good thing you're not Rich, then!

[Angelalex242]

Sharp metal into flesh isn't likely to help Belkar much. A vampire's DR is Magic /and/ Silver. And since Belkar has no silver weapons, he'd be better off with a sharp piece of wood. Or throwing his protection from daylight staff overboard.

Or maybe he should just hire a monk named Buffy. That'll fix it. ;)

[Stella]

I know this may seem silly, but love the image of Belkar going "Wheeeee!" with swirly eyes and a huge grin. :PAre you certain that you prefer "Wheeeee!" over "Clang, clang, clang went the trolly!"?
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html)

Everybody run for your lives! BELKAR SUCCEEDED AT A WISDOM CHECK! XDWell, it's not as though he was trying to summon a demon or something. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

[Angelalex242]

Wait a minute. I thought of a better idea on how Belkar could attack Durkula.

Remember that Kobold YikYik?

Belkar runs to the nearest Tavern, and posts a sign that says, "Halfling threatened by nearby vampire..."

[ManuelSacha]

Well done, little guy. Well done.
Now let's see what the big bald moron has to say to that.

[Necris Omega]

"Up to no good, and probably not much Neutral either."

I dunno why, but I just really love this phrasing.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wait a minute. I thought of a better idea on how Belkar could attack Durkula.

Remember that Kobold YikYik?

Belkar runs to the nearest Tavern, and posts a sign that says, "Halfling threatened by nearby vampire..."

I think that the High Priest of Hel would be far harder to take out in that manner than a single kobold. Especially because if Belkar does this by himself, the rest of the Order may defend the High Priest of Hel.

[Angelalex242]

Harder, yes, but not impossible for a swarm of adventurers with XP on their brain.

[Keltest]

Harder, yes, but not impossible for a swarm of adventurers with XP on their brain.

Well sure, but Belkar would have to actually pay them, or they might kill him too! Plus, who says all of them will be able to save against his dominate?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Harder, yes, but not impossible for a swarm of adventurers with XP on their brain.

However, since the challenge is harder, the amount of adventurers able to actual complete it (since the High Priest of Hel has an epic ECL) will be a lot less, and the majority of them would be unwilling to risk their lives or freedom just for whatever measly reward Belkar can pay.

Admittedly, it's a better idea than Belkar merely attacking him head-on, but it's still not a great idea.

[Angelalex242]

Oh, no. Durkula's not an Epic Challenge.

His ECL is +8 to be sure, but his CR is only 15 or 16.

That's not to say he isn't dangerous, he is, but the first wizard to come along and roll well on his dispel magic or greater dispel magic will finish Durkula off right there.

Hell, one little antimagic aura, and Durkula is SCREWED (assuming it's daytime)

[Kish]

Harder, yes, but not impossible for a swarm of adventurers with XP on their brain.
I think it would more likely go like when the mob of humans attacks Zod, Ursa, and Non in Superman 2.

The High Priest of Hel is an epic-level challenge, and a half-dragon's lightning breath does more lethal damage than 99% of the people in the world can withstand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12088089&postcount=158). It would involve a whole lot of the High Priest shrugging off hits because they're not from silver magical weapons and didn't do over 10 points of damage, a smaller amount of people inflicting trifiling damage on him with massive blows or with spells and it being regenerated in the next round, and a great deal of blood spilling, some of it probably getting drunk.

Edited: You mean, the first wizard to roll well on his Dispel check (or the first level 11+ wizard to randomly pop up as part of a Belkar flashmob and have Greater Dispelling prepared; on an unrelated note, let me just comment that I wish people would quit imposing the Forgotten Realms' ridiculous power-bloat on settings where there's no evidence of it?) would make Durkon spend his next action using the staff to rebuff himself? I can't even figure out what to do with the "one little antimagic aura" claim, since it strikes me as comparable to saying, "One little automatically-obliterate-all-undead spell, and the High Priest of Hel is screwed!"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Oh, no. Durkula's not an Epic Challenge.

His ECL is +8 to be sure, but his CR is only 15 or 16.

That's not to say he isn't dangerous, he is, but the first wizard to come along and roll well on his dispel magic or greater dispel magic will finish Durkula off right there.

Hell, one little antimagic aura, and Durkula is SCREWED (assuming it's daytime)

Only 15 or 16? How many high-level adventuring parties do you think there are? How many high-level wizards (who usually don't make it past 10th level) just hang around in taverns? If there is a scenario where the High Priest of Hel is walking about near a tavern in the day time, he's sure to have made sure he knows how to cast his protections spell know, and he has the backups from his staff.

[Keltest]

Edited: You mean, the first wizard to roll well on his Dispel check (or the first level 11+ wizard to randomly pop up as part of a Belkar flashmob and have Greater Dispelling prepared; on an unrelated note, let me just comment that I wish people would quit imposing the Forgotten Realms' ridiculous power-bloat on settings where there's no evidence of it?) would make Durkon spend his next action using the staff to rebuff himself? I can't even figure out what to do with the "one little antimagic aura" claim, since it strikes me as comparable to saying, "One little automatically-obliterate-all-undead spell, and the High Priest of Hel is screwed!"

You may have noticed that Angelalex has a somewhat poor grasp on the scale of the mechanics whenever he discusses them. No offense to him, but things like "Kill the vampire with an antimagic aura from a random tavern mage" and "just equip a legion of paladins with a phylactery of faithfulness" aren't remotely plausible, story wise or mechanics wise.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Smolder]

Just read the new comic for the first time and I laughed several times. I really liked the failed search and the suggestions! I mean, who would have thought that the vampire's vulnerability would be from the lack of any real relationship between Belkar and Durkon in the first 900 strips or so? How many other queries can Durkon thwart due to lack of social development with his team members? Durkon's lack of character development is now his strength! Seriously, that's a lot of groundwork to lay for a panel 3 gag. I am impressed.

[xyzchyx]

To be honest, ignoring the point that a vampire's domination shouldn't ordinarily allow them to compel someone to kill themselves, I think Vampire Durkon made what could easily turn out to be a rather large tactical error telling the halfling to jump off the ship. It might still work out for his benefit as long as Belkar doesn't survive this, but if Belkar's number isn't really up yet, then it seems to me that Vampire Durkon will have pretty much blown his cover. There are countless responses that could have been used to counter Belkar's interrogation that didn't involve basically admitting that he was no longer really the same Durkon that we used to know, and although it is unlikely that such responses would have actually stopped Belkar from being suspicious, Vampire Durkon could have still counted on the rest of the party's support to keep Belkar at bay. I cannot think of any way outside of obvious plot contrivances that Vampire Durkon can talk his way out of essentially compelling Belkar to commit suicide to the rest of the party that they would actually buy, so that being said... I'm quite convinced that this is going to be it for Belkar.

[Keltest]

To be honest, ignoring the point that a vampire's domination shouldn't ordinarily allow them to compel someone to kill themselves, I think Vampire Durkon made what could easily turn out to be a rather large tactical error telling the halfling to jump off the ship. It might still work out for his benefit as long as Belkar doesn't survive this, but if Belkar's number isn't really up yet, then it seems to me that Vampire Durkon will have pretty much blown his cover. There are countless responses that could have been used to counter Belkar's interrogation that didn't involve basically admitting that he was no longer really the same Durkon that we used to know, and although it is unlikely that such responses would have actually stopped Belkar from being suspicious, Vampire Durkon could have still counted on the rest of the party's support to keep Belkar at bay. I cannot think of any way outside of obvious plot contrivances that Vampire Durkon can talk his way out of essentially compelling Belkar to commit suicide to the rest of the party that they would actually buy, so that being said... I'm quite convinced that this is going to be it for Belkar.

easy. all he needs to do is threaten to kill Belkar if he continues harassing him. Killing him right now would inconvenience the HPoH far more than killing him would after his cover is blown.

[Angelalex242]

First, the phylacteries only cost 1000 gp a shot. Any halfway decent adventurer can afford that from level 3 onwards due to WBL.

2nd, why wouldn't there be an 11th level mage with greater dispelling around? It's a pretty common spell for mages to have handy. And if the 11th level mage is part of a party of equally leveled adventurers, one may therefore conclude that they'll at least be sensible enough to know a vampire in daylight must be magically protecting himself. Dispelling those protections is the first logical move for a being with an int score in the mid 20s. It's like nobody wants to give even mid level mages credit for their intelligence scores.

[Ramien]

Belkar does indeed get the best lines...

I do found myself feeling sorry for Roy, though. I'm sure he'd thought that the party infighting would be done, and now Belkar and Lurky Corpsewhiskers are going at it... and the 'pranks' are a lot more lethal than what Belkar and V ever had going on.

I am going to have to save that last threat for the next time I fight a vampire in a game, though.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

2nd, why wouldn't there be an 11th level mage with greater dispelling around? It's a pretty common spell for mages to have handy. And if the 11th level mage is part of a party of equally leveled adventurers, one may therefore conclude that they'll at least be sensible enough to know a vampire in daylight must be magically protecting himself. Dispelling those protections is the first logical move for a being with an int score in the mid 20s. It's like nobody wants to give even mid level mages credit for their intelligence scores.

The question remains, why is there an 11th level mage hanging around in a tavern when they are supposedly very rare?

[Keltest]

First, the phylacteries only cost 1000 gp a shot. Any halfway decent adventurer can afford that from level 3 onwards due to WBL.

2nd, why wouldn't there be an 11th level mage with greater dispelling around? It's a pretty common spell for mages to have handy. And if the 11th level mage is part of a party of equally leveled adventurers, one may therefore conclude that they'll at least be sensible enough to know a vampire in daylight must be magically protecting himself. Dispelling those protections is the first logical move for a being with an int score in the mid 20s. It's like nobody wants to give even mid level mages credit for their intelligence scores.

The gold cost does not accurately reflect the actual availability of such an item. A vorpal sword might seem relatively accessible to a wealthy kingdom if you look at it from a pure gold standpoint, but you aren't going to equip a town guard with it, let alone a legion of paladins. Likewise, while greater dispelling might be a handy spell to have, 11th+ level mages are not remotely common, and while Rich did do a one shot joke about idle adventuring parties, they killed a kobold. They could all be level 1 commoners and still achieve that with the numbers they had.

[Kish]

Jaxzan Proditor addressed the big problem here, so I'm just going to say:

It's like nobody wants to give even mid level mages credit for their intelligence scores.
No, it's like while "Belkar posts a note outside a tavern and a mob appears" could be part of a joke (again), "there's at least one 11th-level spellcaster in this mob rather than a bunch of low-levels" seriously strains the joke and "the prepared spellcasters in the mob also chose their spells that morning with an eye to fighting a vampire under a sunlight-resistance spell" takes it all the way to "if Rich wanted to be that heavy-handed, why didn't he simply draw a picture of himself stomping on the High Priest of Hel? It would actually have humor potential that way."

To be honest, ignoring the point that a vampire's domination shouldn't ordinarily allow them to compel someone to kill themselves, I think Vampire Durkon made what could easily turn out to be a rather large tactical error telling the halfling to jump off the ship. It might still work out for his benefit as long as Belkar doesn't survive this, but if Belkar's number isn't really up yet, then it seems to me that Vampire Durkon will have pretty much blown his cover. There are countless responses that could have been used to counter Belkar's interrogation that didn't involve basically admitting that he was no longer really the same Durkon that we used to know, and although it is unlikely that such responses would have actually stopped Belkar from being suspicious, Vampire Durkon could have still counted on the rest of the party's support to keep Belkar at bay. I cannot think of any way outside of obvious plot contrivances that Vampire Durkon can talk his way out of essentially compelling Belkar to commit suicide to the rest of the party that they would actually buy, so that being said... I'm quite convinced that this is going to be it for Belkar.
Yes, indulging his temper was a mistake.

No, it wasn't nearly the mistake you're claiming it is, mainly because of the inaccuracy of your repeated-twice-in-this-post claim that jumping off the ship was suicide.

Ten gold says that if Belkar brings it up to Roy at all, it will be in the context of an aggravating prank similar to Vaarsuvius casting Explosive Runes, and if Belkar tries to make it more than that, both Roy and the High Priest of Hel will snort at him. Ten gold also says that Belkar will live to talk to Roy again.

(In the spirit of full disclosure, I should mention that if Belkar does die here, I expect to be readily able to pay off that second bet, or a lot of much larger bets, from collecting on the bets I've made over the years with people who think Belkar will somehow evade the prophecy.)

[Weiser_Cain]

This is why I equip myself with something to grant immunity to mind-affecting effects.

[xyzchyx]

No, it wasn't nearly the mistake you're claiming it is, mainly because of the inaccuracy of your repeated-twice-in-this-post claim that jumping off the ship was suicide.They are over a whole lot of water... possibly even an ocean. While any drop would not necessarily be instantly fatal, it would still probably result in death. Telling Belkar to jump overboard is equivalent to asking him to kill himself, albeit in a way that makes for good physical comedy... and I already know that plot trumps rules.

[Kish]

This is why I equip myself with something to grant immunity to mind-affecting effects.
Baneful Transposition!


The joke is that characters who rely on immunity to mind-affecting effects generally dump their Will save, leaving them incredibly vulnerable to Baneful Transposition, a spell with a Will save that isn't classified as a mind-affecting spell.

[Jon the Wizard]

I would've told him to also do a flip.

[Kish]

[Reassertion that it is so committing suicide]
Not interested in the bet, eh? Too bad.

[Weiser_Cain]

Baneful Transposition!


The joke is that characters who rely on immunity to mind-affecting effects generally dump their Will save, leaving them incredibly vulnerable to Baneful Transposition, a spell with a Will save that isn't classified as a mind-affecting spell.

I play an Eldritch Knight, It's not great but it's not complete crap. Which describes everything I do as an EK.

[Ivrytwr]

Sorry! The memory you searched for can not be found.
Nice! Thanks Giant

[Jay R]

You know, I would think that after all the times he's been mind controlled, Belkar would do something to make it at least a little harder for people to do that to him. Aren't there magical items that can help fight that stuff? Or stat bonuses?

That's the sort of clear-headed, long-range planning that somebody with high wisdom would be expected to figure out.


I would also note that the 404 doesn't mean there are no friendly memories.

Of course there are friendly memories. But he restricted the search to things only Belkar and Durkon would know about. The eliminates watching Haley search a door (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html), for instance, since the experience was shared with Elan and Roy.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Sometimes, I wonder what we would make of these last few strips if we hadn't learned how OOTS vampires work. I like to read the old arguments.

Nokrud/Yeerkon/Darkon/Not-Durkon/Jerkon/Durk-Malacksen/Hpoh/hippo/Count-Durkula/DurkHelson/Blackbeard/vampire-Durkon is less convincing now than back in the days of "'Twas not meself when I drank yer blood", I think this " jump overboard" would have sealed it for us, argument-wise.

[Keltest]

Sometimes, I wonder what we would make of these last few strips if we hadn't learned how OOTS vampires work. I like to read the old arguments.

Nokrud/Yeerkon/Darkon/Not-Durkon/Jerkon/Durk-Malacksen/Hpoh/hippo/Count-Durkula/DurkHelson/Blackbeard/vampire-Durkon is less convincing now than back in the days of "'Twas not meself when I drank yer blood", I think this " jump overboard" would have sealed it for us, argument-wise.

You kidding? These are the OOTS forums. People would just say that its his evil side coming out.

[WindStruck]

Protection from Evil is a level one spell. There's absolutely no reason V shouldn't have that in his spellbook by now. If he were to cast it on Belkar and it blocks Durkula's domination, that would add more evidence standing right before the rest of the order that something is off...

Also: I bet V suspects it isn't the real Durkon either, but has kept his mouth shut. He just might start preparing that spell though.

[Keltest]

Protection from Evil is a level one spell. There's absolutely no reason V shouldn't have that in his spellbook by now. If he were to cast it on Belkar and it blocks Durkula's domination, that would add more evidence standing right before the rest of the order that something is off...

Also: I bet V suspects it isn't the real Durkon either, but has kept his mouth shut. He just might start preparing that spell though.
Durkon has made no pretenses that he is not evil, though he hasn't outright said "Im evil, but otherwise the same." When asked about it, he basically shrugged. It should not be news at this point.

[Kish]

Protection from Evil is a level one spell. There's absolutely no reason V shouldn't have that in his spellbook by now. If he were to cast it on Belkar and it blocks Durkula's domination, that would add more evidence standing right before the rest of the order that something is off...
How so?

(Even if you're under the impression most of the Order would be surprised to learn that Vampire Durkon is evil...that spell wouldn't tell them. Check the description again; all the Protection from Alignment spells bar all forms of mind control, regardless of the controller. Protection from Good would block the High Priest of Hel's domination as effectively as Protection from Evil would.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sometimes, I wonder what we would make of these last few strips if we hadn't learned how OOTS vampires work. I like to read the old arguments.

Nokrud/Yeerkon/Darkon/Not-Durkon/Jerkon/Durk-Malacksen/Hpoh/hippo/Count-Durkula/DurkHelson/Blackbeard/vampire-Durkon is less convincing now than back in the days of "'Twas not meself when I drank yer blood", I think this " jump overboard" would have sealed it for us, argument-wise.

Yeah, even if we were looking at this strips without the ending to 946 and the conversations between Durkon and the High Priest of Hel, I would probably be admitting that this probably isn't Durkon, even if he is Evil. I can't say that everyone would do the same, though.

Edit: Thinking on it, it's really hard to tell how I'd feel. I can't really separate my actually feelings from what I'd feel in this hypothectical situation. I think I could be feeling either way.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I would have interpreted that as a change in outlook but not exactly out-of-character. Wanting to kill Belkar is totally Durkon, but doing something about it is the sort of thing that might be explained by having changed from Good to Evil. (I'd have been wrong, of course.)

Also, Jerkon is the first fan nickname for the vampire that I like. A lot.

[zimmerwald1915]

Protection from Evil is a level one spell. There's absolutely no reason V shouldn't have that in his spellbook by now.
Sure there is. A wizard learn spells in four ways: starting with them, researching them independently, purchasing access to them through scrolls or spellbooks, and finding scrolls or spellbooks as loot. None of these methods, considering Vaarsuvius's personality, priorities, and circumstances, are likely to have granted her the spell.

There is every reason in the world to believe that wee level one (and two) Vaarsuvius, enamored with flashy, impressive, aggressive magic, would not learn a passive, reactive, invisible spell like protection from evil. Nothing that we know of her apprenticeship indicates that she learned protection from evil or anything like it. The first spell we see her attempt to cast in On the Origin of PCs is burning hands, though we only ever see her go so far as to mimic Aarindarius's hand movements, not the spell itself. She also activates a magic hat to use animate objects in an homage to The Sorcerer's Apprentice. In other words, from what we know of her training, she focused on Evocation and Transmutation, not Abjuration. This only makes sense. She would become a specialist Evoker, and Transmutation's list is so comprehensive that it's hard not to use unless you specifically ban it. Oh, and it had teleport back in the day. And she disdained level 1 abjurations like hold portal so much that looking back she lamented that she must have had some mental disease at the time she decided to scribe it!

There is also every reason to believe that Vaarsuvius would not take protection from evil, a level 1 spell, as one of her free spells from leveling, once she hit level 3. Remember, it wasn't until well into level 14 that Vaarsuvius learned to value something other than the most powerful spell available to her. So her free spells would have been spent on 2nd-level spells, 3rd-level spells, etc., as soon as they became available. She may have taken protection from evil at level 2, but why? She had spells like identify, hold portal, magic missile, expeditious retreat, silent image, and feather fall, all of which she's used on-panel or alluded to having, to learn instead.

If she did not learn protection from evil through leveling, that leaves independent research, purchase, and loot. Purchase and loot are both right out for obvious reasons. Not once has the Order been seen recovering spellbooks or scrolls from a foe. Dorukan's spellbooks would have been buried in his dungeon. Xykon and the Draketooths, being sorcerers, never had any. The party would never have encountered libraries on the ocean, and Malack's library was dedicated to necromancy (one of V's barred schools) and divine magic to boot! As for purchase, well, one doesn't simply purchase scrolls or spellbooks in the Stickverse. One purchases randomized spell booster packs.

Research is a bit trickier, but let's look at V's opportunities and priorities. V has had two major spats of spell research so far. First in Azure City, she learned power word: blind and presumably other spells. Trouble is, she focused, again, on learning high-level, aggressive spells. The only defensive buff she carried throughout the Battle of Azure City was protection from arrows. Furthermore, when Belkar was charmed in Azure City, by Nale, V did not use protection from evil to simply rid him of the effect. She, using up more and higher-level spells, grappled him with grasping hand and attempted to end the charm with dispel magic. When she was with the fleet, her research priority was divination and communication, figuring out how to pierce wards, not to create them.

Sure, protection from evil is a D&D wizard's staple, but so is the entire conjuration school, and V can't possibly use that. The FAQ goes out of its way to point out that just because a tactical option is a D&D staple doesn't mean the characters will use it or have access to it. Even if it's easy and cheap to get. Even if - especially if - it would be a good problem-solving tool.

[WindStruck]

That's really a lot of unnecessary chatter and extrapolation ignoring the fact that it should have been trivially easy to obtain even when he was much lower level. And V has used abjurations before. Don't confuse that with one of the spell schools V actually HAS barred.

imo, V has had plenty of opportunity to buy spells in the Empire of Blood and Azure City alone. Just because you never saw it on screen doesn't mean it never happened.

[Keltest]

That's really a lot of unnecessary chatter and extrapolation ignoring the fact that it should have been trivially easy to obtain even when he was much lower level. And V has used abjurations before. Don't confuse that with one of the spell schools V actually HAS barred.

The question isn't whether he could have run into it at some point, the question is whether or not he would scribe it into his traveling spellbook. I would not be surprised if he had it in some Uber-tome back in his library, but as of the Azure City arc his spellbook was full.

Edit: heck, with all the gold the party has, he could easily have several copies of every wizard spell available to him stashed somewhere. Just not on his person.

[WindStruck]

The question isn't whether he could have run into it at some point, the question is whether or not he would scribe it into his traveling spellbook. I would not be surprised if he had it in some Uber-tome back in his library, but as of the Azure City arc his spellbook was full.

Edit: heck, with all the gold the party has, he could easily have several copies of every wizard spell available to him stashed somewhere. Just not on his person.

Spell books are not uber rare items. They're extremely common too. If you run out of room in your current spell book, all you need to do is purchase another one. Or five while you're at it.

[Keltest]

Spell books are not uber rare items. They're extremely common too. If you run out of room in your current spell book, all you need to do is purchase another one. Or five while you're at it.

Well, apparently not, since V didn't have enough room to scribe much more than his Power Word in Azure City, where spellbooks would be plentiful. Im sure the rules on spellbook space are incredibly arbitrary when you consider things like bags of holding allowing a small travel library rather than a tome, but for whatever reason they exist.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's really a lot of unnecessary chatter and extrapolation ignoring the fact that it should have been trivially easy to obtain even when he was much lower level. And V has used abjurations before. Don't confuse that with one of the spell schools V actually HAS barred.

imo, V has had plenty of opportunity to buy spells in the Empire of Blood and Azure City alone. Just because you never saw it on screen doesn't mean it never happened.

It would be trivially easy, yes. However, spells like that are not spells that Vaarsuvius really made much use of, until recently. Clearly, Vaarsuvius either didn't have it learned or prepared often in the Azure City arc, or they would have used that spell to break the charm on Belkar. They could have learned it recently, but why would they with other, more powerful spells available to them. Basically, it wouldn't be difficult for Vaarsuvius to have learned, but it's not something they would have done.

[Kish]

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Vaarsuvius knows Protection from Evil and in fact has it prepared every day now.

How would that give the Order evidence that something is off with Durkon?

("Look at that, a spell that blocks mind control blocks mind control! Clearly, that means Vampire Durkon is actually a malevolent spirit plotting the destruction of the entire world!")

[Rogar Demonblud]

They are over a whole lot of water... possibly even an ocean. While any drop would not necessarily be instantly fatal, it would still probably result in death. Telling Belkar to jump overboard is equivalent to asking him to kill himself, albeit in a way that makes for good physical comedy... and I already know that plot trumps rules.

V has Overland Flight active basically all day at V's level. So if Belkar does jump, V sighs in exasperation and goes after him. Monologues a bit on the way down. And about the time Belkar pops back to the surface (thanks buoyancy!), V scoops him up with a Bugsby's Hand spell and returns to the airship. Depending on distances to be flown, the whole thing takes maybe a couple of minutes.

[Psyren]

Indeed. Rich has said that vampires have as much free will as the living do, that the High Priest of Hel chooses to serve the god who created him as Durkon chooses to serve Thor. So the statement, "Malack was a catalyst for Hel to create the entity who is now her High Priest," is neither more nor less accurate than, "Eugene and Sara were a catalyst for (some Northern god, probably Odin) to create Roy Greenhilt."

I believe undead are fundamentally different though, in that they exist to be controlled. Even when uncontrolled (like Xykon and Malack), they are slaves to their desires because they are ultimately not alive, but merely parodies of life.

In other words, Darkon/HPoH doesn't really have a choice whether or not to serve Hel. Even if he were capable of somehow nominally rejecting her mission (and losing his cleric status/powers because of it), his own vampiric instincts/urges to spread misery and suffering would still end up furthering her goals. In his own way, even Xykon is doing much the same.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I believe undead are fundamentally different though, in that they exist to be controlled. Even when uncontrolled (like Xykon and Malack), they are slaves to their desires because they are ultimately not alive, but merely parodies of life.

In other words, Darkon/HPoH doesn't really have a choice whether or not to serve Hel. Even if he were capable of somehow nominally rejecting her mission (and losing his cleric status/powers because of it), his own vampiric instincts/urges to spread misery and suffering would still end up furthering her goals. In his own way, even Xykon is doing much the same.

It seems that, in this universe anyways, it is possible for Good vampires to exist, so they are not slaves to any instinct to spread misery. It is also possible for vampire clerics to worship gods besides the one that created them, even if it might mean losing their clerical abilities. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17334948&postcount=307) is Word of Giant on the subject.

[Necris Omega]

I believe undead are fundamentally different though, in that they exist to be controlled. Even when uncontrolled (like Xykon and Malack), they are slaves to their desires because they are ultimately not alive, but merely parodies of life.

In other words, Darkon/HPoH doesn't really have a choice whether or not to serve Hel. Even if he were capable of somehow nominally rejecting her mission (and losing his cleric status/powers because of it), his own vampiric instincts/urges to spread misery and suffering would still end up furthering her goals. In his own way, even Xykon is doing much the same.

"See, the Undead are tools. Powerful, dangerous tools. From the lowest zombie to Xyklon himself, the undead are just complex weapons that we make and aim at other people. All that differs is how direct or subtle our control of them is." ~ Redcloak, potentially the highest level cleric in the strip at this point, and thus arguably the #1 authority on the matter.

[Kish]

I believe undead are fundamentally different though, in that they exist to be controlled.

You're paraphrasing Redcloak and contradicting Rich (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17331234&postcount=286) there.

One is the ultimate authority on the OotS universe; the other is a deeply deluded man who has a vested interest in pretending his master is not his master. Contrary to what Necris Omega just said, the one who is that authority is not the one who wears a red cloak and black armor*.

*Rich might wear a red cloak, but I'm going out on a limb and risking asserting that he does not wear black armor habitually.

[Aquillion]

Protection from Evil is a level one spell. There's absolutely no reason V shouldn't have that in his spellbook by now. If he were to cast it on Belkar and it blocks Durkula's domination, that would add more evidence standing right before the rest of the order that something is off...Actually, although I mentioned the spell earlier as a possible way to protect Belkar, it wouldn't prove anything in this respect, for two reasons:

First, despite the name, Protection from Evil (or Good) protects against all possession or mind control, regardless of the alignment of its source. Yes, I know it's weird, but it's explicit in the spell's text and clearly intentional. It provides certain bonuses that only work against evil creatures (an AC bonus), then provides protection from mind control, and explicitly states that the protection from mind control "works regardless of alignment."

Second, more importantly, they probably know (or suspect) that Durkon is now evil. Knowing that doesn't prove that he's not Durkon.

(More interestingly, I wonder what would happen if they cast it on Durkula? Would it force out the vampire's control, or is that "deeper?" Canon vampires it wouldn't work with, although it might have blocked Malack's control; but we don't know entirely how OOTS vampires work.)

[zimmerwald1915]

(More interestingly, I wonder what would happen if they cast it on Durkula? Would it force out the vampire's control, or is that "deeper?" Canon vampires it wouldn't work with, although it might have blocked Malack's control; but we don't know entirely how OOTS vampires work.)
Whatever else it does, protection from evil doesn't remove templates. Giving a negative energy spirit control of the templatee's body is, per Word of Giant, an integral part of how the vampire template works in the Stickverse. So protection from evil wouldn't kick the spirit out of the vampire. It might, however, prevent it from forcing Durkon to give it memories.

[Aquillion]

Whatever else it does, protection from evil doesn't remove templates. Giving a negative energy spirit control of the templatee's body is, per Word of Giant, an integral part of how the vampire template works in the Stickverse. So protection from evil wouldn't kick the spirit out of the vampire. It might, however, prevent it from forcing Durkon to give it memories.The way Protection from Evil works on possessed or controlled beings is that it suppresses the control without terminating it. That is to say, OOTS aside, my normal answer would be that if you cast it on someone who has a negative energy spirit in control of their body, the negative energy spirit will remain there, but will lose control.

Obviously in OOTS it works however the special rules in the setting say, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that it might suppress Durkula's control of the body entirely for the duration.

[Darth Paul]

Surely you mean "That Tool Frudu (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)"? :smallwink:

Of course, what was I thinking? But as someone else pointed out, Bilbo is the "Tool", Frudu would have to be a Putz.

[Psyren]

It seems that, in this universe anyways, it is possible for Good vampires to exist, so they are not slaves to any instinct to spread misery. It is also possible for vampire clerics to worship gods besides the one that created them, even if it might mean losing their clerical abilities. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17334948&postcount=307) is Word of Giant on the subject.

His "maybe there are good vampires out there somewhere, don't care either way" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShrugOfGod) did not seem to me equivalent to "there definitely are."


You're paraphrasing Redcloak and contradicting Rich (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17331234&postcount=286) there.


I don't think my statement contradicts Rich at all. I didn't say "Malack would follow Nergal's instructions to the letter even if he weren't a cleric of Nergal, and Darkon would do the same for Hel." Rather, I said "the fundamental nature of vampires, absent any special good-aligned vampire we have yet to see in the story, is likely to be more or less in line with the desires of the kinds of deities who create the spirits that go into vampires." If Thor were to create vampire spirits I would expect his to act differently, yet somehow I doubt this has ever happened or will.

And I expect the same to be more or less true for any other intelligent undead.

[Terrador]

The way Protection from Evil works on possessed or controlled beings is that it suppresses the control without terminating it. That is to say, OOTS aside, my normal answer would be that if you cast it on someone who has a negative energy spirit in control of their body, the negative energy spirit will remain there, but will lose control.

Obviously in OOTS it works however the special rules in the setting say, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that it might suppress Durkula's control of the body entirely for the duration.

There is the teensy weensy matter that Durkon is dead. That may be a bit of a barrier.

[factotum]

That's really a lot of unnecessary chatter and extrapolation ignoring the fact that it should have been trivially easy to obtain even when he was much lower level.

I think you're missing the entire point here. Yes, it would have been easy for V for obtain the spell. The question is, would he have done so rather than, say, picking an offensive spell instead? Everything we know of V suggests he would pick the offensive spell, because that's how his personality works. Remember, he's not a player looking through the PHB and picking the best spells for the battles he knows are coming, he's a guy who picks stuff because of his unshakeable conviction in the power of blasting stuff with arcane magic. Why bother with Protection from Evil when you can blast the enemy to atoms before they can respond?

(You also don't answer zimmerwald's point about why V didn't just use Protection from Evil to get rid of the charm Nale put on Belkar back in Azure City, I note...).

[shadowpriest]

I'd say, from Belkar's words, that one of his "favored enemy" categories could be "Undead".

[Psyren]

There is the teensy weensy matter that Durkon is dead. That may be a bit of a barrier.

This - the "creature" standing there is Darkon. If you cast it on him, then all you're doing is protecting the vampire from ongoing mental control, which is redundant.

[Weiser_Cain]

I would have interpreted that as a change in outlook but not exactly out-of-character. Wanting to kill Belkar is totally Durkon, but doing something about it is the sort of thing that might be explained by having changed from Good to Evil. (I'd have been wrong, of course.)

Also, Jerkon is the first fan nickname for the vampire that I like. A lot.

Ah, but Durkon is LAWFUL good, becoming evil shouldn't wipe out the lawfulness.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The way Protection from Evil works on possessed or controlled beings is that it suppresses the control without terminating it. That is to say, OOTS aside, my normal answer would be that if you cast it on someone who has a negative energy spirit in control of their body, the negative energy spirit will remain there, but will lose control.

Obviously in OOTS it works however the special rules in the setting say, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that it might suppress Durkula's control of the body entirely for the duration.

This is how I think it would work as well. Protection from Evil, if cast on Durkon, would temporarily suppress the High Priest of Hel. Of course, the Order wouldn't do this unless they became aware of the specifics of Durkon's situation, which is pretty unlikely.


His "maybe there are good vampires out there somewhere, don't care either way" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShrugOfGod) did not seem to me equivalent to "there definitely are."
It allows for the possibility of Good vampires, which would indicate that they don't have to be slaves to their desires. His shrug is more about the presence of them in this story, not the possibility of their existence.

[pendell]

hmmm....how is the vampire going to get out of this one? just lie again? sigh....knowing Roy he will probably believe Durkula over Belkar.....still probably not over the death thing....

also I like Belkar's talking about how people don't change instantly, only over time in bits you don't notice. poetic, considering his character development.....

Of course he will. At this point Durkula could say "the sky is green with red polka-dots" and Roy would believe him over Belkar. Belkar spent five books murdering his credibility, along with uncounted passerby, while Durkon spent it building his. There's no WAY Roy will ever believe Belkar unless he somehow gets access to the same kind of inside information that we have, as the audience.

I must admit, this is very painful to read. Still, I have faith that the Giant has a satisfying resolution in mind -- eventually. But I doubt it will happen before the end of the book. He's spent five books tracing the party's arc to this point , I doubt he'll just undo it in one or two panels.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sunken Valley]

Doesn't Belkar's logic imply, if people don't just suddenly change, that Durkon shouldn't suddenly become evil because he was good first?

Also, Durkon is really going to blow his cover, telling Belkar to kill himself.

[Keltest]

Doesn't Belkar's logic imply, if people don't just suddenly change, that Durkon shouldn't suddenly become evil because he was good first?

Also, Durkon is really going to blow his cover, telling Belkar to kill himself.

Um, yes? That's what Belkar was trying to say.

[Kish]

I don't think my statement contradicts Rich at all.
You don't see how, "I believe undead are fundamentally different though, in that they exist to be controlled." contradicts, "Malack had free will. He was an Evil person, in the same way that Redcloak is an Evil person. If he was slavishly loyal to Nergal, that was because he was a cleric, not because he was a vampire. [...] Everything he did, every action you saw him take, was his own decision. Nothing about the metaphysics of how vampirism works changes anything."

Or how the statement that there is nothing in the OotS metaphysics that prevents Good vampires who are in harmony with the world contradicts your statement that every vampire spreads misery and suffering as desired by an Evil god?

[elros]

At this point, I think the Order accepts that Durkon is "evil," (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0939.html) but they are okay with it because they believe he has his free will back (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html). Roy pretty much announced why he cannot reject Durkula as evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html), so I suspect he will be the last one to believe Belkar.
As for dominating Belkar, I think Durkula's stunt of having Belkar jump will be viewed like V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html) casting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0317.html) explosive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) runes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0323.html) on Belkar. Which means there is a good chance that V will be the one to notice that something is really wrong with Durkon, especially since he is the only one (other than Belkar) that did not volunteer to give blood to support Durkula (although that is not clear).

[Doug Lampert]

Belkar isn't fundamentally opposed to jumping overboard? Freaky!

Why should he be?

Seriously, what's the problem with it? It's prohibitively unlikely to do significant damage (he's landing in water, he gets to check against tumble or swim to totally avoid any damage, and if he misses the check for diving he takes an average of 42 56 lethal and 7 non-lethal damage, so it's unlikely to may not even force a check against death by massive damage).

Edited: Arithmetic error fixed. It has a noticeably less than 1 in 20 chance of killing Belkar if Rich is using death by massive damage, and we've seen no evidence that he is.

And what makes anyone think Belkar would notice in advance that others might have difficulty rescuing him? Nor will they have difficulty rescuing him, he's not falling and won't take any damage. But they can leave him hanging till they get to Tinkertown and he won't bother anyone.

And if he had hit the water, V still exists and can fly.


I fear that Belkar will accidently drop when they attempt to get him onboard again and then drown, and that will be it.
Narratively, I can't fathom a way to keep Belkar alive and NOT ruin the story. I see no realistic way how Durkula would weasel out of this situation otherwise.

What? Hanging Belkar over a dangerous drop is somehow inexplicable? How odd that they haven't yet done anything about Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html) then.

[Keltest]

Why should he be?

Seriously, what's the problem with it? It's prohibitively unlikely to do significant damage (he's landing in water, he gets to check against tumble or swim to totally avoid any damage, and if he misses the check for diving he takes an average of 42 56 lethal and 7 non-lethal damage, so it's unlikely to may not even force a check against death by massive damage).

Edited: Arithmetic error fixed. It has a noticeably less than 1 in 20 chance of killing Belkar if Rich is using death by massive damage, and we've seen no evidence that he is.

And what makes anyone think Belkar would notice in advance that others might have difficulty rescuing him? Nor will they have difficulty rescuing him, he's not falling and won't take any damage. But they can leave him hanging till they get to Tinkertown and he won't bother anyone.

And if he had hit the water, V still exists and can fly.



What? Hanging Belkar over a dangerous drop is somehow inexplicable? How odd that they haven't yet done anything about Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0689.html) then.

In this case its not the fall that kills him, its the fact that as far as we know he is still over the ocean. Plus "Self destructive" does not mean "Self terminating." Unless he can reliably make that fall for no damage at all, he still gets hurt from it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In this case its not the fall that kills him, its the fact that as far as we know he is still over the ocean. Plus "Self destructive" does not mean "Self terminating." Unless he can reliably make that fall for no damage at all, he still gets hurt from it.

Well, as far as the ocean goes, Vaarsuvius should be able to fly down and carry him back up.

[Doug Lampert]

In this case its not the fall that kills him, its the fact that as far as we know he is still over the ocean. Plus "Self destructive" does not mean "Self terminating." Unless he can reliably make that fall for no damage at all, he still gets hurt from it.

"Self destructive" also does not mean, "may cause HP damage", you can make dominated creatures fight after all.

He need not reduce the damage to zero, although, note that he CAN REDUCE the damage to zero via a jump check, and he's got a ring of jumping and high level, it's quite possible that he can reduce the damage to zero.

Not that he needs to, HP damage <> self destructive in any argument about actual rules.

Nor does the ocean matter, unless you maintain that Belkar has the foresight to anticipate that problem, and lacks the MEMORY to know that V has overland flight going already.

This is not by any reasonable definition self destructive, we've seen dominated creatures do FAR FAR riskier things without anyone blinking in the comments.

[Keltest]

Well, as far as the ocean goes, Vaarsuvius should be able to fly down and carry him back up.

True, but that's assuming that V knows he fell, and can spot him.

[xyzchyx]

I do not get why so many people here are contriving excuses for how ordering Belkar to jump overboard is somehow not telling him to perform a fairly blatant self-destructive act, and are apparently unable to grapple with the concept that it was quite obviously utilized in this strip almost entirely for its comedic effect, and not because it is actually something that could actually ever happen in 3.5 rules. I'm quite certain that The Giant is not under any requirement or duty to only have his characters behave in ways that are compatible with 3.5 rules, he is using the rulesystem as the background in which to tell the story, not as a rigid sandbox which will necessarily limit what will or can actually happen. Inventing excuses about why Durkon's orders supposedly wouldn't break the rules is rather pointless when the story doesn't have to follow the rules in the first place.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

True, but that's assuming that V knows he fell, and can spot him.

People reported that he jumped overboard fairly quickly and he should be fairly easy to spot.

[Doug Lampert]

I do not get why so many people here are contriving excuses for how ordering Belkar to jump overboard is somehow not telling him to perform a fairly blatant self-destructive act, and are apparently unable to grapple with the concept that it was quite obviously utilized in this strip almost entirely for its comedic effect, and not because it is actually something that could actually ever happen in 3.5 rules. I'm quite certain that The Giant is not under any requirement or duty to only have his characters behave in ways that are compatible with 3.5 rules, he is using the rulesystem as the background in which to tell the story, not as a rigid sandbox which will necessarily limit what will or can actually happen. Inventing excuses about why Durkon's orders supposedly wouldn't break the rules is rather pointless when the story doesn't have to follow the rules in the first place.

We're POINTING OUT that it blatantly doesn't violate the rules because others are FALSELY STATING that it does.

You stop making incorrect claims that it violates the rules, and we'll stop pointing out that you're wrong.

Edited to add: If it is blatantly self destructive as you claim then it should have some minimal chance of leading to self destruction, it does not.

[Mathalor]

Maybe the domination - self destructive act worked because Belkar does self destructive things all the time, and enjoys them.

Wheeeeee

[xyzchyx]

We're POINTING OUT that it blatantly doesn't violate the rules because others are FALSELY STATING that it does.It *DOES* violate the rules.. you have to contrive explanations that haven't happened yet to argue that it doesn't.

Occam's razor suggests that it is more likely that the act *does* violate the rules and was used for comedic effect than that it somehow doesn't violate the rules and we are going to discover exactly how, in some way.

Considering, again... the fact that The Giant is under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to rigidly follow the rules anyways.


Edited to add: If it is blatantly self destructive as you claim then it should have some minimal chance of leading to self destruction, it does not.I'd suggest jumping overboard from a height of more than 200 feet into the middle of an ocean to be fairly obviously self-destructive.... you have to *INVENT* reasons to suggest that it is not... reasons that are entirely superfluous because The Giant didn't have any obligation to anyone to follow the rules in the first place.

[Psyren]

You don't see how, "I believe undead are fundamentally different though, in that they exist to be controlled." contradicts, "Malack had free will. He was an Evil person, in the same way that Redcloak is an Evil person. If he was slavishly loyal to Nergal, that was because he was a cleric, not because he was a vampire. [...] Everything he did, every action you saw him take, was his own decision. Nothing about the metaphysics of how vampirism works changes anything."

Or how the statement that there is nothing in the OotS metaphysics that prevents Good vampires who are in harmony with the world contradicts your statement that every vampire spreads misery and suffering as desired by an Evil god?

No, I'm not disagreeing with Rich's statement - rather, you are overstating the "free will" in his quote. Redcloak was not, to my knowledge, implanted with an evil spirit at the moment of his birth (though whatever the cloak did in SoD may not be far off, come to think of it.) Anyway, I digress. Yes, Malack did have free will - but I believe that free will pertained more to how he was evil than that he was evil. Malack himself stated that the person he was when alive was fundamentally different than the person he is now, to the point that reverting to that person would be just a form of death.

In short, what I'm saying is this - even without overt marching orders from a deity-cleric relationship, the natural inclinations that vampires (and other free-willed undead) possess, follow in a broad sense the desires/goals of the deities who spend time creating, or enabling the creation of, free-willed undead.

To your second statement, I'd need something a little more committal than "meh," from Rich before I think such a thing (good vampires) is more than mere remote possibility or whimsy in OotS.

[Jay R]

It *DOES* violate the rules.. you have to contrive explanations that haven't happened yet to argue that it doesn't.

Occam's razor suggests that it is more likely that the act *does* violate the rules and was used for comedic effect than that it somehow doesn't violate the rules and we are going to discover exactly how, in some way.

Considering, again... the fact that The Giant is under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to rigidly follow the rules anyways.

I'd suggest jumping overboard from a height of more than 200 feet into the middle of an ocean to be fairly obviously self-destructive.... you have to *INVENT* reasons to suggest that it is not... reasons that are entirely superfluous because The Giant didn't have any obligation to anyone to follow the rules in the first place.

Yes, he has no obligation to follow the rules. That doesn't close the question of whether this violates the rules; it opens it.

Quoting and applying actual rules isn't "contriv[ing] explanations", or "*INVENT[ING]* reasons". Quoting and applying the actual rules is the only way to determine if it violates the rules.

By contrast, your statement that it is "fairly obviously self-destructive", without any explanation about how it destroys the self within the rules, is inventing something from outside the ruleset.

I agree that it would be self-destructive in our world, in which no wizards fly to the rescue, no Rings of Jumping exist, and a long fall kills anyone, no matter how high level. But within the D&D ruleset, Belkar jumping into the ocean in the current situation is not self-destructive.

[Keltest]

Yes, he has no obligation to follow the rules. That doesn't close the question of whether this violates the rules; it opens it.

Quoting and applying actual rules isn't "contriv[ing] explanations", or "*INVENT[ING]* reasons". Quoting and applying the actual rules is the only way to determine if it violates the rules.

By contrast, your statement that it is "fairly obviously self-destructive", without any explanation about how it destroys the self within the rules, is inventing something from outside the ruleset.

I agree that it would be self-destructive in our world, in which no wizards fly to the rescue, no Rings of Jumping exist, and a long fall kills anyone, no matter how high level. But within the D&D ruleset, Belkar jumping into the ocean in the current situation is not self-destructive.


Again, I think youre confusing "Self-Destructive" with 'Self-Terminating." The fact that he may or may not literally die from the event does not change that Belkar on a conscious level knows that jumping overboard is a bad thing to do because of the negative consequences to his self.

[Sobol]

Woah, damnit! It looks like Belkar is more on to him than most people gave him credit for.
I'm torn between "So, this is how he dies then" and "Naw, he survives this, because everyone expects HPoH to kill him somehow and the Giant probably has something more special in mind".
I expect Belkar to heroically sacrifice his life or something like that - a grand conclusion to his character development.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yes you can order a dominated (etc) subject to fight. That has limits, though. If you order someone unarmed and unarmored to attack someone with a sword and full plate, the order probably won't be followed, depending on the GM. If you order someone to attack their friend, the order probably won't be followed either, because there are other kinds of limitations on those abilities. Suggestion and charm person aren't supposed to turn the subject into a mindless puppet, but that's how those spells work in OOTS apparently. (Dominate person sort of does do that.)


I do not get why so many people here are contriving excuses for how ordering Belkar to jump overboard is somehow not telling him to perform a fairly blatant self-destructive act, and are apparently unable to grapple with the concept that it was quite obviously utilized in this strip almost entirely for its comedic effect, and not because it is actually something that could actually ever happen in 3.5 rules. I'm quite certain that The Giant is not under any requirement or duty to only have his characters behave in ways that are compatible with 3.5 rules, he is using the rulesystem as the background in which to tell the story, not as a rigid sandbox which will necessarily limit what will or can actually happen. Inventing excuses about why Durkon's orders supposedly wouldn't break the rules is rather pointless when the story doesn't have to follow the rules in the first place. (emphasis added)

This exactly. It is incorrect to interpret "obviously self-destructive" as "obviously suicide". The danger doesn't have to be nearly that severe. Holding your hand over a candle flame is "obviously self-destructive". "Jump overboard" is textbook "obviously self-destructive". It'd be self-destructive even if they were sailing on the water instead of flying hundreds of feet over it, which is way worse. By D&D rules, a dominated (etc) subject would not follow that order. OOTS does not always adhere to D&D rules.

[Terrador]

Yes you can order a dominated (etc) subject to fight. That has limits, though. If you order someone unarmed and unarmored to attack someone with a sword and full plate, the order probably won't be followed, depending on the GM. If you order someone to attack their friend, the order probably won't be followed either, because there are other kinds of limitations on those abilities. Suggestion and charm person aren't supposed to turn the subject into a mindless puppet, either, but that's how those spells work in OOTS apparently. (Dominate person sort of does.)



This exactly. It is incorrect to interpret "obviously self-destructive" as "obviously suicide". The danger doesn't have to be nearly that severe. "Jump overboard" is textbook "obviously self-destructive". It'd be self-destructive even if they were sailing on the water instead of flying hundreds of feet over it, which is way worse. By D&D rules, a dominated (etc) subject would not follow that order. OOTS does not always adhere to D&D rules.

Note that two of the primary cases of creatures being charmed or dominated into fighting compatriots were incredibly Evil (Belkar) and both Evil and rather mercenary about it (Yukyuk? Whichever Nale's most recent kobold not named Kilkil was). Thanh is a Paladin, and was convinced to attack Haley, a lifelong thief. I'm sure Roy wouldn't attack Haley or Elan, but would certainly strike down Belkar, were he to be compelled to do so.

[Psyren]

Inventing excuses about why Durkon's orders supposedly wouldn't break the rules is rather pointless when the story doesn't have to follow the rules in the first place.

It's pointless to you maybe but some of us find it fun. There is also an aesthetic value to it; art is often more beautiful when it is produced through limitations, such as the juggler who blindfolds himself or the pianist who plays an entire symphony using only his left hand. Rich can set the rules aside anytime he wants - the fact that he only does so rarely if at all makes the story that much more impressive to behold.

Having said that I do think he either overlooked or actively disregarded that clause in dominate. I for one simply thought the thrall would get another save and was prepared to rationalize it as Belkar just failing a second time, but eh.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yes but that is way overboard. It is obvious when the people who are arguing about the rules have not played the game.

[Keltest]

Yes but that is way overboard. It is obvious when the people who are arguing about the rules have not played the game.

More accurately, theyre trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Conceivably it could happen, but it would be a poor fit and wouldn't work the way its supposed to.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yeah it wasn't an order to do something self-destructive because off-panel Elan was creating the illusion that the ship is on fire.

/sarcasm

[Reathin]

At first, I was a little surprised he didn't command him to "attack me". With his damage reduction, fast healing and cleric spells, Belkar's unlikely to do any real damage to him, but it would "prove" to Roy and the others that Belkar's being even more psycho than usual, clearly unstable around "Durkon", and it's not like they're going to believe that he was dominated into it, what with the previous scene. The rest of the Order would be more on his side than ever.

Then I realized that this was much funnier, so whatever.

[Amphiox]

It's actually rather foolish of Belkar to confront HPoH like this, and even explicitly threaten him. He already knows he's no match for Malack, and that he has a terrible will save against an attack that a vampire can spam at will. He may or may not know that HPoH's level adjustment now puts him as an EL even HIGHER than Malack was.

If we are going to talk about willfully self-destructive actions, the mere act of directly confronting HPoH like this is quite a bit more dangerous than jumping overboard.

I suppose this is more than consistent with Belkar's low WIS score....

[Kish]

No, I'm not disagreeing with Rich's statement -
Not disagreeing with it, just legislating part of it to meaninglessness and declaring that he didn't indicate enough interest for what he said for the other part to carry any weight, eh?

I don't agree with your apparent definitions of "free will," "might exist," "disagreeing," or "is," (:smalltongue:) so there we are. Call the High Priest of Hel Durk Helssen if it pleases you. (If for some reason I wanted to call Roy Roy Odinsson, I don't suppose you'd need to approve of that, so.)

[Amphiox]

At first, I was a little surprised he didn't command him to "attack me"...

Then I realized that this was much funnier, so whatever.

Well, they're still on deck, and I'm wondering if they might be still within earshot of others, off-frame. (Or at least HPoH would have to consider the possibility of being overheard by others off-frame) In that case the command "jump overboard" could be explained away to listeners as "I was annoyed and I just pranked him, since I knew it wouldn't hurt him because of his level." (Like V had done similar magic shenanigans on Belkar in earlier strips). But an "attack me" command, if overheard, would be much harder to explain away.

[Jay R]

The wording of the spell says, "Obviously self-destructive", by the way, not merely "self-destructive".


Again, I think youre confusing "Self-Destructive" with 'Self-Terminating." The fact that he may or may not literally die from the event does not change that Belkar on a conscious level knows that jumping overboard is a bad thing to do because of the negative consequences to his self.

And I think you're confusing "Self-Destructive" with "a bad thing to do because of the negative consequences to his self". Negative consequences do not necessarily destroy.

One dictionary definition of "destructive" is "causing great and irreparable harm or damage." Jumping into the ocean with a Ring of Jumping and a flying ally nearby does not obviously cause great and irreparable harm or damage.

Yes, I do consider "destroy" and "terminate" to be very similar in effect, and therefore "destructive" and "terminating" are close to synonyms, so there would need to be a clear form of potential destruction for me to rule that a non-self-terminating order would be ignored. It would have to cause great and irreparable harm. If he was ordered to get hooked on drugs, or to cut off his hand, I would consider that to be "obviously self-destructive" without being self-terminating. But jumping into an ocean is no more "obviously self-destructive" than entering a melee is, and a very common use of Dominate Person is to get the victim to fight for you.

[Amphiox]

On the question of breaking D&D 3.5 rules. The Giant has explicitly stated the narrative occurs in a world that runs of those rules. Has he ever explicitly broken one of those rules without immediately lampshading it (like with the Weather Control incident)?

While an author is free to break rules in his narrative wherever he chooses, having explicitly established with his audience what the ground rules are, most authors would tend to avoid breaking those rules trivially. If the rules ARE to be broken, it will usually be for good reason, and there will usually be an in-narrative explanation, to avoiding breaking the audience's willing suspension of disbelief.

Your audience's willingness to suspend disbelief is a limited and precious resource. Good authors husband that resource carefully.

If you see something in a narrative that seems to break the previously established rules of the narrative, that is not followed quickly by an explanation as to why that happened, in narrative, your first assumption should not be that the author deliberately arbitrarily just broke one of the rules he created, or agreed to use, in his world-building, it should be either that it actually does follow the rules in a way you didn't notice, or that the author simply forgot about the rule in question.

And the likelihood of the second depends on what you know about the author's skill based on the earlier evidence provided by the narrative from before.

[Keltest]

The wording of the spell says, "Obviously self-destructive", by the way, not merely "self-destructive".



And I think you're confusing "Self-Destructive" with "a bad thing to do because of the negative consequences to his self". Negative consequences do not necessarily destroy.

One dictionary definition of "destructive" is "causing great and irreparable harm or damage." Jumping into the ocean with a Ring of Jumping and a flying ally nearby does not obviously cause great and irreparable harm or damage.

Yes, I do consider "destroy" and "terminate" to be very similar in effect, and therefore "destructive" and "terminating" are close to synonyms, so there would need to be a clear form of potential destruction for me to rule that a non-self-terminating order would be ignored. It would have to cause great and irreparable harm. If he was ordered to get hooked on drugs, or to cut off his hand, I would consider that to be "obviously self-destructive" without being self-terminating. But jumping into an ocean is no more "obviously self-destructive" than entering a melee is, and a very common use of Dominate Person is to get the victim to fight for you.

You do know that self-destructive is a distinct term, correct? Its not (just) the destruction of oneself.

[Doug Lampert]

It *DOES* violate the rules.. you have to contrive explanations that haven't happened yet to argue that it doesn't.

Occam's razor suggests that it is more likely that the act *does* violate the rules and was used for comedic effect than that it somehow doesn't violate the rules and we are going to discover exactly how, in some way.

Considering, again... the fact that The Giant is under absolutely no obligation whatsoever to rigidly follow the rules anyways.

I'd suggest jumping overboard from a height of more than 200 feet into the middle of an ocean to be fairly obviously self-destructive.... you have to *INVENT* reasons to suggest that it is not... reasons that are entirely superfluous because The Giant didn't have any obligation to anyone to follow the rules in the first place.

I'm not inventing anything. I'm READING THE RULES, the thing you are arguing about. Those rules say that this was about as self destructive as standing up in the bathtub is for anyone in our world.

200' is irrelevant unless you reference the rules for what happens at the BOTTOM of that drop, which is that Belkar takes a trivial amount of damage (for him) and is rescued without difficulty.

It's about as dangerous FOR BELKAR as standing up in the bathtub is for you. Would you also argue that ordering someone to stand up is excessive. It does no lasting harm and has no meaningful chance of causing death.

Ordering someone into combat OTOH has about a 50% chance of getting them killed in many cases. And that works quite well.

Self destructive doesn't mean "looks dangerous to me", it means dangerous or long term damaging for the character doing it.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Self destructive doesn't mean "looks dangerous to me"...

It kind of does mean that. Belkar doesn't know how many hit points he has or what the max falling damage is. And anyway, it's up to the GM to decide if a given order is "obviously self-destructive".

Also the order was "jump overboard", not "jump into the ocean". That's obviously self-destructive in almost all scenarios for almost any subject. There are many things wrong with that besides falling and swimming... hell, he landed on the tip of a ballista bolt, it could have been his face instead of his cloak that got hooked. There are borderline cases, but this isn't one of them. That definitely did not follow D&D rules.

[Mathalor]

Belkar has a ring of jumping and jump as a class skill. He could have aimed for that bolt. Not saying that's definitely the answer, but it's something he's capable of.

[Psyren]

Not disagreeing with it, just legislating part of it to meaninglessness and declaring that he didn't indicate enough interest for what he said for the other part to carry any weight, eh?

I don't agree with your apparent definitions of "free will," "might exist," "disagreeing," or "is," (:smalltongue:) so there we are. Call the High Priest of Hel Durk Helssen if it pleases you. (If for some reason I wanted to call Roy Roy Odinsson, I don't suppose you'd need to approve of that, so.)

Is that what you think this is about? I actually prefer "Darkon," as the above posts should have made clear :smalltongue:

You stated the following: "Rich has said that vampires have as much free will as the living do." But that's not actually what he said; rather he said that Malack has as much free will as Redcloak does, which is a substantially different statement. Rich goes on to say that Malack's alternative should he have chosen instead not to follow Nergal was "rampaging around the continent draining people," which is more or less behavior I'd expect.

If Rich had said a non-cleric Malack might have, I don't know, opened an orphanage in Bleedingham instead or something, then maybe I could see where you're coming from in regards to "good undead in OotS." But he didn't, and I don't.

[Keltest]

Is that what you think this is about? I actually prefer "Darkon," as the above posts should have made clear :smalltongue:

You stated the following: "Rich has said that vampires have as much free will as the living do." But that's not actually what he said; rather he said that Malack has as much free will as Redcloak does, which is a substantially different statement. Rich goes on to say that Malack's alternative should he have chosen instead not to follow Nergal was "rampaging around the continent draining people," which is more or less behavior I'd expect.

If Rich had said a non-cleric Malack might have, I don't know, opened an orphanage in Bleedingham instead or something, then maybe I could see where you're coming from in regards to "good undead in OotS." But he didn't, and I don't.

Are you suggesting that Redcloak is not free to give the Dark One and Xykon the finger and deal with the consequences if he so chose to?

[geoduck]

It's actually rather foolish of Belkar to confront HPoH like this, and even explicitly threaten him. He already knows he's no match for Malack, and that he has a terrible will save against an attack that a vampire can spam at will. He may or may not know that HPoH's level adjustment now puts him as an EL even HIGHER than Malack was.

Confronting HPoH wasn't a bad idea at all, if he had done it in front of witnesses. Unfortunately for Belkar, he's impulsiveness personified, and he has the Intelligence and (particularly) Wisdom scores of a concussed gnat.

More generally, I don't see how, plot-wise, the two of them can both stay on board the airship, and since the HPoH presumably still needs to go fulfill the prophecy, Belkar's the one that has to go, fatally or otherwise.

[Keltest]

Confronting HPoH wasn't a bad idea at all, if he had done it in front of witnesses. Unfortunately for Belkar, he's impulsiveness personified, and he has the Intelligence and (particularly) Wisdom scores of a concussed gnat.

More generally, I don't see how, plot-wise, the two of them can both stay on board the airship, and since the HPoH presumably still needs to go fulfill the prophecy, Belkar's the one that has to go, fatally or otherwise.

High Priest of Hel: "Tell Anyone about this or continue to harass me and Next time you hit the spear a little more squarely."

Belkar: "Grumble grumble."

[SlashDash]

Pardon me, haven't read the whole thread.

Question:
After seeing Belkar jumping off rather shortly, I was wondering, did they ever mention what happened to his ring of jumping?

He gave it to Roy who died. Then Roy was taken by the monster in the dark and I doubt he removed it. Then Roy was taken by Haley and Belkar.
So Belkar should have had the ring but it seems according to the panel he didn't.

Of course it's possible he is wearing it and didn't use it or that maybe they sold it for the resistance or something.

I'm just wondering if it was ever mentioned in the strip what happened to it.

[Keltest]

Pardon me, haven't read the whole thread.

Question:
After seeing Belkar jumping off rather shortly, I was wondering, did they ever mention what happened to his ring of jumping?

He gave it to Roy who died. Then Roy was taken by the monster in the dark and I doubt he removed it. Then Roy was taken by Haley and Belkar.
So Belkar should have had the ring but it seems according to the panel he didn't.

Of course it's possible he is wearing it and didn't use it or that maybe they sold it for the resistance or something.

I'm just wondering if it was ever mentioned in the strip what happened to it.

It has not been brought up explicitly since he gave it to Roy.

[Psyren]

Are you suggesting that Redcloak is not free to give the Dark One and Xykon the finger and deal with the consequences if he so chose to?

No, I'm suggesting that he is free to do so - but he quite simply won't, not unless something fundamental to his very nature drastically changes. Granted, the chains strapping him to this particular wheel are not quite so cosmic* in nature - see again my "implanted with an evil spirit at birth" statement - and are largely self-inflicted, but they are still there.

I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that Rich is absolutely free to write a vampire or other intelligent undead who is not ultimately a bastard. Whether that concept resonates with him/feels credible enough for him to actually do so is another matter, though of course by merely saying that I could have spurred such an entity's creation. But even if it is possible, given what we know of the birth of OotS vampires so far it would be a rarity indeed.



*Assuming again that the cloak did not, in fact, implant something in him - that scene was, again, not very clear (likely intentionally so.)

[St Fan]

It has not been brought up explicitly since he gave it to Roy.

Although the most common assumption was that the first thing Belkar did when finding Roy's corpse was recovering his ring. Shortly afterward, he's seen jumping atop a vulture.

[xyzchyx]

I'm not inventing anything. I'm READING THE RULES, the thing you are arguing about. Those rules say that this was about as self destructive as standing up in the bathtub is for anyone in our world.Except, as I've said... The Giant is not under any obligation to follow the rules in the first place. And the rules, if it hasn't escaped your intention, are an *INVENTED* thing... they don't exist in actuality.

In the real world, jumping hundreds of feet into an ocean is a self-destructive act, and I consider that it is not unreasonable to label it as such in a fantasy world either, even if the fantasy world has means to counter them... none of those means are directly at Belkar's command, since he is not a spellcaster himself, and thus, the command to jump overboard was essentially a command to him to commit suicide... again, however, the way it is being done is far more effective at comic relief than a much more straightforward command to commit suicide.

In fact, if it were not such an order, then by issuing such a command, Vampire Durkon has potentially greatly complicated his relationship with the rest of The Order, because if Belkar survives this, he will then be placed in the position of having to deny to the rest of the party that he ever commanded Belkar to jump, despite Belkar's insistence to the contary. Although the party would doubtless believe him, Vampire Durkon is still going to have to deal with all all the potential consequences of having somebody in The Order being alive and completely wise to him, and who will certainly be doing absolutely everything in his power to convince other members of The Order of the veracity of his own claims. The best angle he would have for doing this would be to point out that it's well known he's a self-centered bastard that wouldn't willingly just jump overboard into miles of ocean, so do they have any kind of alternative explanation other than the possibility that he might be telling the truth? As I said before, I think this has the potential to be a major tactical error on Vampire Durkon's part if Belkar actually survives this. Even if Vampire Durkon admits to doing this, but tries to argue that he was defending himself from Belkar attacking him (which is probably the most probable explanation), the fact is that from what we know about the real Durkon, he would never have resorted to such measures... he may have issued a hold-person on Belkar until he could be properly restrained by other members of the order, but he would not have wished any kind of real destruction or harm upon him, regardless of Belkar's antagonistic stance. And some of The Order may pick up on what would essentially amount to a not entirely subtle shift in Durkon's attitudes, and it may cause them to more carefully consider Belkar's claims at some point in the future... assuming again, that Belkar survives this encounter. It could also make for some good comedy if Elan were the first in the Order to notice such a personality shift (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GeniusDitz), because of course, it is improbable that anyone but Haley would take his concerns remotely seriously... at least initially.


Self destructive doesn't mean "looks dangerous to me", it means dangerous or long term damaging for the character doing it.Self destructive means exactly what it means in real life... if within the system one needs to depend on magic that isn't at their own beck-and-call to summon as they wish to counter it, then it's exactly what it appears to be. V is easily the best equipped to rescue Belker, but considering V's and Belkar's relationship in the past, Belkar should not reasonably have any reason to expect such aid from him... and for that matter, it isn't apparent that he bothered even to check if any of his party would come and help him before jumping, he just did it. I can see no other option but to call this an entirely self-destructive act unless or until we actually have some real story development that shows otherwise... not just because there happen to be rules in the system that the story is using that would enable it to not necessarily be so destructive, because, as I've said... The Giant is not constrained in any way by those rules in the first place.

[Keltest]

No, I'm suggesting that he is free to do so - but he quite simply won't, not unless something fundamental to his very nature drastically changes. Granted, the chains strapping him to this particular wheel are not quite so cosmic* in nature - see again my "implanted with an evil spirit at birth" statement - and are largely self-inflicted, but they are still there.

I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that Rich is absolutely free to write a vampire or other intelligent undead who is not ultimately a bastard. Whether that concept resonates with him/feels credible enough for him to actually do so is another matter, though of course by merely saying that I could have spurred such an entity's creation. But even if it is possible, given what we know of the birth of OotS vampires so far it would be a rarity indeed.



*Assuming again that the cloak did not, in fact, implant something in him - that scene was, again, not very clear (likely intentionally so.)

I fail to see the difference between "Vampires are inherently evil monsters because Hel makes them that way." and "Vampires are not free to choose to do whatever they want." Yes, Redcloak is devoted, but that's part of his character, not something inherent to his very being. He is capable of reflecting on his devotion and deciding its stupid at any point.