Protection from Wish Teleportation

[Pangaea]

How does a high level wizard protect themselves from being Wish'd from their private demiplane into, for example, an antimagic field? I started thinking contingencies, but those shouldn't function inside an AMF. I know that Wish used to transport someone grants a will save, but can't caster level be raised arbitrarily high?

Any ideas?

[Doc_Maynot]

Either way the first way that comes to mind would be to have a Contingent Greater Anticipate Teleport. (Why wouldn't you have one of these?)
That would let them know where they are being teleported to and gives them three rounds to prepare a counter. (Probably the Lead Dunce Cap will be involved, just to be safe.)

[Segev]

Contingent AMF that triggers on themselves if Wished without their prior consent. He would then want other contingent effects (which I leave to others to come up with) to protect himself from those who'd take advantage of him being in an AMF when they tried that.

[Doc_Maynot]

Wait, what about contingent Shapechange: Clay Golem when targeted with a Wish spell?

[Segev]

Wait, what about contingent Shapechange: Clay Golem when targeted with a Wish spell?

Hm, interesting thought. Complete immunity to magic definitely would do it.

[ryu]

Antimagic field specifically? Contingent selective antimagic field from inside contingent anticipate teleport. Ideally followed by contingent GTFO button after having dropped a whole pile of contingent attack spells.

[The Grue]

I don't believe Wishing to teleport someone out of their private demiplane falls under the list of Safe Things You Can Wish for. As a side-exercise, what are some possible unintended effects such a wish might have?

[Doc_Maynot]

Unfortunately, it is explicitly a thing you can do.

"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies."

[TypoNinja]

Unfortunately, it is explicitly a thing you can do.

"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies."

That "regardless of local conditions" bit could get messy too in terms of attempting to defend from it.

[eggynack]

Well, as spell resistance applies, the immunity to magic plan would indeed work, and you could get similar, though less perfect, results by boosting your will save to insane levels. Seems to be the best way to block this. As for gaining an arbitrarily high caster level as a way to pierce the will save, CL doesn't impact DC, so that's just irrelevant for that purpose. It does help with the SR thing, however, though not enough to bypass immunity to magic. The wizard could boost intelligence by a lot, but at that point you're just in an ability score war, with similar resources on both sides. Say at level 20, we're talking about 19 + int mod versus about 22.5 + wis mod, with some ways to boost stuff on both sides. The targeted wizard probably has the advantage, because I think saving throws are easier to boost, but the d20 roll at the core of things means that it could go either way.

[Vogonjeltz]

Local conditions meaning: where you land. (Fiery volcano or not)

Forbiddance, Dimensional Lock, and Dimensional Anchor all hard stop any attempt to move the character.

Moment of Prescience would be useful for the Will save if the first 3 methods aren't available or in play. IotSVs can reactively throw up a ward that blocks all spells, no exceptions, so that's the best guarantee.

[ShurikVch]

Spellblade (Wish)

[Vogonjeltz]

Spellblade (Wish)

The selected spell must be one that is targeted against the wielder, not one that affects an area or creates an effect.

Wish isn't eligible.

[Alleran]

Forbiddance, Dimensional Lock, and Dimensional Anchor all hard stop any attempt to move the character.
That sounds an awful lot like a "local condition" to me.

Unfortunately, I don't think the RAW is clear enough to say that those can block it by default. If anything, it's the exact opposite. That a wishport will ignore local conditions means just that: it ignores local conditions, including both at the start point (that might prevent you from leaving) and destination (that might prevent you from arriving). You get a Will save to resist and SR applies. That's it. Fail the Will save and have the spell beat your SR (this is where immunity to magic would be useful), and you're going wherever the caster decides to send you.

It's not all downside. You can also use it as a guaranteed escape tactic.

[ShurikVch]

The selected spell must be one that is targeted against the wielder, not one that affects an area or creates an effect.

Wish isn't eligible. If wizard was wish'ed into AMF, then it was targeted spell with unlimited range

[TypoNinja]

That sounds an awful lot like a "local condition" to me.

Unfortunately, I don't think the RAW is clear enough to say that those can block it by default. If anything, it's the exact opposite. That a wishport will ignore local conditions means just that: it ignores local conditions, including both at the start point (that might prevent you from leaving) and destination (that might prevent you from arriving). You get a Will save to resist and SR applies. That's it. Fail the Will save and have the spell beat your SR (this is where immunity to magic would be useful), and you're going wherever the caster decides to send you.

It's not all downside. You can also use it as a guaranteed escape tactic.

Actually, when two opposing effects like that come into conflict, by default the "Can't" effect wins. Wish would need some language in it like "Also bypasses magical protections against planar travel like Dimensional Anchor or Forbiddance." It's the core of an exception based rules system. By default PC's may be teleported, now you've got a defense up and the default position is you cannot be teleported. Someone attempting to teleport you out of your defense needs specific exemption to ignore the "Can't be teleported" state you've set up.

[The Grue]

Actually, when two opposing effects like that come into conflict, by default the "Can't" effect wins. Wish would need some language in it like "Also bypasses magical protections against planar travel like Dimensional Anchor or Forbiddance." It's the core of an exception based rules system. By default PC's may be teleported, now you've got a defense up and the default position is you cannot be teleported. Someone attempting to teleport you out of your defense needs specific exemption to ignore the "Can't be teleported" state you've set up.

I see your point, and I agree, but I think a case could be made that the phrase "regardless of local conditions" may construe such an exemption.

Ultimately, depending on the in-game context I think a GM could be forgiven for ruling either way. If it were me, I'd rule it on the fly in favour of whichever party was a player-character.

[Werephilosopher]

The selected spell must be one that is targeted against the wielder, not one that affects an area or creates an effect.

Wish isn't eligible.


Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

Emphasis mine. While it wouldn't protect against some of the other effects of wish, it should certainly protect against this one.

[Psyren]

Basically your best defense is having high SR (or immunity), or a really good will save. If something optimizes to overcome those two no matter what, then there is probably no way to avoid them short of knowing or being a deity.

[eggynack]

Basically your best defense is having high SR (or immunity), or a really good will save. If something optimizes to overcome those two no matter what, then there is probably no way to avoid them short of knowing or being a deity.
Is there a particular way to bypass immunity to magic?

[Psyren]

Is there a particular way to bypass immunity to magic?

Supernatural Wish will ignore it pretty easily - there are a couple of ways to get that (e.g. Shapechange into Zodar.)

[137beth]

Actually, when two opposing effects like that come into conflict, by default the "Can't" effect wins. Wish would need some language in it like "Also bypasses magical protections against planar travel like Dimensional Anchor or Forbiddance." It's the core of an exception based rules system. By default PC's may be teleported, now you've got a defense up and the default position is you cannot be teleported. Someone attempting to teleport you out of your defense needs specific exemption to ignore the "Can't be teleported" state you've set up.

That doesn't make any sense. Which one is the "can't" effect depends on which spell you are using and which spell your opponent is using. By that logic, Forbiddance and Dimensional Anchor can't block Wish, because they don't say they can and the default is they can't. But wish (according to the argument you just made) doesn't say it can beat dimensional anchor/forbiddance, so it can't.


Anyways, aside from what's already been said, the wizard can leave a bunch of ice assassins/simulacrons/intelligent magic items in a private demiplane who have constantly readied actions to cast wish to bring him/her back if needed. Wish can get you out of a dead magic plane ("regardless of local conditions"), but you yourself cannot actually cast Wish in a dead magic plane. That's what ice assassins are for.
Now, the real danger is what happens if your enemy has enough ice assassins of their own to Wish you and all of your ice assassins to a dead magic plane at once. At that point you need to fall back on other contingencies (anticipate teleport->polymorph into a golem, contingent wish, etc.)

[137beth]

Supernatural Wish will ignore it pretty easily - there are a couple of ways to get that (e.g. Shapechange into Zodar.)

A demilich gains immunity to supernatural abilities as well as spells and (Sp). A demilich has a minimum of 21 HD, so shapechange allows you to get it. However, that's only if you are allowed to shapechange into a templated creature. Arguably there are more than one demilich in the world, making it "nonunique".

[Psyren]

A demilich gains immunity to supernatural abilities as well as spells and (Sp). A demilich has a minimum of 21 HD, so shapechange allows you to get it. However, that's only if you are allowed to shapechange into a templated creature. Arguably there are more than one demilich in the world, making it "nonunique".

Shapechange inherits from polymorph which explicitly does not allow templated creatures. In addition, demiliches are epic opponents - once you cross into epic magic, Wish is the least of your worries.

[DeAnno]

Really, Wish itself is less of a criminal here than all the ways to spam it (Ice Assassin and so on), since saves naturally scale faster than save DCs at similar levels of optimization. Both are tied to an ability score, but saves have a Resistance bonus available of +5-+8 depending on what source you like, often the base save is over +12 for spellcasters compared to a Wish's +9, and lots of buffs pass lots of weird bonus types onto saves, while comparatively few do for save DCs.

The main issue is you autofail on a natural 1; without that it would be trivial to be paranoid enough to never fail the save:

Int 32 + Spell focuses
DC = 11+9+10+2=32

Wis 20 + Superior Resistance (6) + Base Save 16 (good will and two prestige classes) + Conviction (5) = +32

There is also the issue that Limited Wish should be used beforehand to reduce the Save by -7, making it practical again, but thinking of some more common mods or actually trying with your Wisdom may alleviate that a little. Persisted Owl's Insight itself is disgusting in how large a bonus it could theoretically provide.

[Bronk]

Unfortunately, it is explicitly a thing you can do.

"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies."

The wish spell can do that, but you have to target the spell first. From the SRD:


Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

The caster has to be fairly close to the target for it to be a safe wish, at least within the range of a spot check.

[Psyren]

The wish spell can do that, but you have to target the spell first. From the SRD:



The caster has to be fairly close to the target for it to be a safe wish, at least within the range of a spot check.

Specific trumps general. Wish's range is "see text" - and the text is that you can pick any plane as the source and any plane as the destination.

If all spells were subject to the range limitations you specified above, Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm) would not function unless you could already see the object, making it pointless.

[Bronk]

Huh, I guess you're right. I wonder how stringent you have to be with identifying the target then. Name? Anyone with that name? True Name? Maybe changing your personal details, or changing the personal details of others, would help protect you from that kind of wish.

[Snowbluff]

Wis 20 + Superior Resistance (6) + Base Save 16 (good will and two prestige classes) + Conviction (5) = +32


Add in the Standard Issue Empryreal Buckler +5. Having SR would help, too. Naturally, a Shadesteel Golem would be immune, wouldn't it? :smalltongue:

I also support the use of Spell Blades and Dimensional Anchor.

[Psyren]

Add in the Standard Issue Empryreal Buckler +5. Having SR would help, too. Naturally, a Shadesteel Golem would be immune, wouldn't it? :smalltongue:

Their magic immunity is like that of any other golem - i.e. it's just arbitrarily high SR, meaning Su Wish would beat it.


I also support the use of Spell Blades and Dimensional Anchor.

Those two would likely run into the "local conditions" clause.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Dweomer of Transference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/dweomerOfTransference.htm) should work, off the top of my head.

[Snowbluff]

Their magic immunity is like that of any other golem - i.e. it's just arbitrarily high SR, meaning Su Wish would beat it. Su wish would get around even that, yes.


Those two would likely run into the "local conditions" clause.
I'd rule that these are effects, not conditions, and they are personal (you, me), not local (which refers to an area). Dimensional Lock wouldn't work for this reason.

As a third option, Antimagic Ray.

[Werephilosopher]

Those two would likely run into the "local conditions" clause.

If it's a spellblade keyed specifically to wish, wouldn't that be specific trumps general?

[Psyren]

If it's a spellblade keyed specifically to wish, wouldn't that be specific trumps general?

But which is the "general" and which is the "specific?" Spellblades *generally* confer immunity to their contained spell, while Wish *specifically* ignores all localized preventing conditions.

I'm not here to rule one way or the other, merely to raise the question. It's up to DMs to answer it (for their tables.)

[Snowbluff]

How is it local if it's a personal effect? :smallconfused:

[Rubik]

Combining oneself with your own aleax means you're immune to all forms of attack, and I'd consider being kidnapped by a spell an attack.

If you've got Initiate of Mystra, you can add in a Crafted Contingent (Greater) Plane Shift to return you from whence you came as soon as you're Wished somewhere (dead magic plane, AMF, or no).

Being Vecna-blooded means that there's no way to target you because nobody knows who you are.

And spellblades work as well. "Personal Immunity to Wish" isn't a local condition under any (even vaguely) reasonable definition or interpretation.

[eggynack]

How is it local if it's a personal effect? :smallconfused:
Personal is the most local there is.

[Vogonjeltz]

The local conditions clause is referring to the destination, not the origin.

It means you can teleport someone into space or any other dangerous location.

[Psyren]

Personal is the most local there is.

^ Yep. Presumably you exist and are therefore a point in space (if a potentially mobile one.)


Combining oneself with your own aleax means you're immune to all forms of attack, and I'd consider being kidnapped by a spell an attack.

If you've got Initiate of Mystra, you can add in a Crafted Contingent (Greater) Plane Shift to return you from whence you came as soon as you're Wished somewhere (dead magic plane, AMF, or no).

Being Vecna-blooded means that there's no way to target you because nobody knows who you are.

And spellblades work as well. "Personal Immunity to Wish" isn't a local condition under any (even vaguely) reasonable definition or interpretation.

A contingency or other arrangement to return you to your origin would get you back home, but would not stop the initial retrieval.

As for the rest:

- Merging with your aleax could count as defeating it, in which case your aleax (now, unfortunately, you) would cease to exist.

- Venca-Blooded just prevents them from finding you. They don't have to actually know where you are for Wish to target you on any plane you happen to be (Wish's range is "see text," just as you don't have to know where an object is to Discern Location. In addition, Vecna-Blooded is impossible to actually get unless Vecna wants you to have it.

- Spellblades come down to DM call. Personally I disagree, as not everyone in the world has a spellblade and not every spellblade is keyed to wish, I would consider this a local condition. For me it comes down to "is this a property of the multiverse/magic system as a whole" - anything less than that would be considered local rather than global.


Also, note that no matter what immunities you come up with for wish, none will stop Miracle - it has no upper bound on its power. You can make a Miracle as unsafe as you wish, and the worst case scenario is that you lose 5000 xp and hear "no."

[eggynack]

The local conditions clause is referring to the destination, not the origin.

It means you can teleport someone into space or any other dangerous location.
That's not clear, and it's definitely not necessarily the case. Really just ambiguous at best. One could even argue that it unambiguously refers to both the destination and the origin, as both locations qualify as possessing local conditions, and wish ignores those.

[TypoNinja]

Local conditions is certainly remarkably poor wording, but RAI, I don't think it was intended to pierce magical protections. A combination of a baleful teleport/plane shift, with no destination error chance, and unlimited range, is already a fantastically powerful effect without allowing it to bypass protections.

Were such a thing possible I expect the core of the planet would be corpses of Deities rather than nickel and iron.

[ryu]

Local conditions is certainly remarkably poor wording, but RAI, I don't think it was intended to pierce magical protections. A combination of a baleful teleport/plane shift, with no destination error chance, and unlimited range, is already a fantastically powerful effect without allowing it to bypass protections.

Were such a thing possible I expect the core of the planet would be corpses of Deities rather than nickel and iron.

What self respecting deity dies from being ported to the core of the planet? Hell I haven't made a wizard that would die from that at level 20 in ages.

[Snowbluff]

Personal is the most local there is.


belonging or relating to a particular area or neighborhood, typically exclusively so.

Doesn't look like it. It has to be an area to be local.

[eggynack]

Doesn't look like it. It has to be an area to be local.
No, it has to belong to an area. A person is local to the area which they are in.

[Snowbluff]

No, it has to belong to an area. A person is local to the area which they are in.

They are a person, not a condition. The condition is specific to the person, but not the area, so it is not a local condition.

[eggynack]

They are a person, not a condition. The condition is specific to the person, but not the area, so it is not a local condition.
The effect is also a condition local to the area, by merit of the fact that they are within the area. That's really all that belonging to an area means, and any condition that's on a person local to a given area is also going to be local to that area.

[Snowbluff]

The effect is also a condition local to the area, by merit of the fact that they are within the area. That's really all that belonging to an area means, and any condition that's on a person local to a given area is also going to be local to that area.
Source that. It's only extant through the person. It has no effect on the area.

[eggynack]

Source that.
It seems pretty clear to me. The definition of "belong" that applies here is, "to be in the relation of a member, adherent, inhabitant, etc." This condition is an inhabitant of the area in question, so it is local to that area. The condition also relates to that region, satisfying the other term, because being with an area represents a relationship to that area.

[Snowbluff]

It seems pretty clear to me. The definition of "belong" that applies here is, "to be in the relation of a member, adherent, inhabitant, etc." This condition is an inhabitant of the area in question, so it is local to that area. The condition also relates to that region, satisfying the other term, because being with an area represents a relationship to that area.

It doesn't belong there at all. It's belongs to/in the inhabitant. The area has no ownership over the effect, and does not govern how it operates. When the effect concerns (synonym to relate, and the relevant definition), the effect only affects the person! It has no effect when concerning the area.

This is like saying Enervate is an area effect. I guess I can use Imbue Arrow with it.

[Psyren]

It doesn't belong there at all. It's belongs to/in the inhabitant.

But the location matters because that is how the spellblade itself functions. If you are not wielding a spellblade it does nothing. How does the universe, weave etc. determine you are wielding it? Because of its location relative to you (in your hands, on your person etc.)

Basically if spellblades are not local, they don't function at all. Or they function for everyone across the multiverse the moment a single one is created.

[Snowbluff]

But the location matters because that is how the spellblade itself functions. If you are not wielding a spellblade it does nothing. How does the universe, weave etc. determine you are wielding it? Because of its location relative to you (in your hands, on your person etc.)

Basically if spellblades are not local, they don't function at all. Or they function for everyone across the multiverse the moment a single one is created. Hm... perhaps. That would assume you can be local to a person rather than an area. Of course, if this get's nitpicky enough, the whole line of the spell might have to be ignored in the first place.

Wait, spellblades are not a condition.

[ryu]

But the location matters because that is how the spellblade itself functions. If you are not wielding a spellblade it does nothing. How does the universe, weave etc. determine you are wielding it? Because of its location relative to you (in your hands, on your person etc.)

Basically if spellblades are not local, they don't function at all. Or they function for everyone across the multiverse the moment a single one is created.

You mean you can't think of a way for a wizard to wield a spellblade non-locally? I can think of several. They're all impractical, but they work.

[Psyren]

Wait, spellblades are not a condition.

The spellblade property is. (For example: "does this weapon have the spellblade property? Y/N")


You mean you can't think of a way for a wizard to wield a spellblade non-locally? I can think of several. They're all impractical, but they work.

Anything you come up with could be construed as "local" unless it affects everyone else who is not you.

[Snowbluff]

The spellblade property is. (For example: "does this weapon have the spellblade property? Y/N")
A condition of a weapon? Maybe? Would it be local? No.



Anything you come up with could be construed as "local" unless it affects everyone else who is not you.
That's the opposite of local.

[Doc_Maynot]

What if somehow the caster found a way to gain the spellblade property on themself?

[Psyren]

A condition of a weapon? Maybe? Would it be local? No.

If it's not, then it's either affecting no one or everyone, rather than just a single wielder or even group of wielders.


That's the opposite of local.

Exactly my point.


What if somehow the caster found a way to gain the spellblade property on themself?

Then it would be only affecting himself and therefore local rather than global.

[Snowbluff]

If it's not, then it's either affecting no one or everyone, rather than just a single wielder or even group of wielders.

Exactly my point.

Then it would be only affecting himself and therefore local rather than global.

Your point is that you don't know what local means? That you'll just say something is local even when it clearly would not be. :smallconfused:

These are effects that operate in relation to a personal (personal) rather than to an area (local). You might as well be talking about a whole 2d plane when you need to consider a single point.

[Doc_Maynot]

Then it would be only affecting himself and therefore local rather than global.

Well alrighty then.

[Psyren]

Your point is that you don't know what local means? That you'll just say something is local even when it clearly would not be. :smallconfused:

I thought eggynack's defintions above were pretty clear actually.



These are effects that operate in relation to a personal (personal) rather than to an area (local). You might as well be talking about a whole 2d plane when you need to consider a single point.

So do you not occupy a point in space? Or are you one with the entire universe? Is there a point where "you" ends and "not you" begins?

[Snowbluff]

I thought eggynack's defintions above were pretty clear actually. So are mine. Doesn't seem like a measure of any worth.


So do you not occupy a point in space? Or are you one with the entire universe? Is there a point where "you" ends and "not you" begins?I occupy the point, but that point moves and alters itself. It's not a part of the nature of the area I occupy. It's my location, and not the other way around. Which is really outside the scope of the question. I'm not a condition.

I think if you keep interpreting things like this, you enter the "rules don't say I can't" territory.

Actually, how does one target this effect in the first place? You can move them from any place, but don't you need their location in the first place? Or LoE to target?

[Phelix-Mu]

Someone convince me that the Su wish doesn't allow SR for the transport option.

Specific: Transport using wish allows an unwilling target SR. Note, it's not the wish allowing SR, it's the result of a specific effect that the spell can result in; the spell's description emphasizes that SR works to block this transport, not just the stat block.

General: Su versions of spells don't allow SR.

Hmm. Managed to half convince myself there. Anyone wanna help.

[ryu]

I thought eggynack's defintions above were pretty clear actually.



So do you not occupy a point in space? Or are you one with the entire universe? Is there a point where "you" ends and "not you" begins?

I don't have to occupy a point in space. For one I could literally just hop over to that crazy outside the universe dealy where the aberrations live. Oh or the areas between planes.

Hell given time I'm pretty sure we could work out a way to merge with the universe into a sentient existence with all the frightening control that implies.

I don't think you fully understand the amount of abstracts I'm willing to work with.

[Psyren]

Your stance is clear too - I just happen to agree more with his. As with all rules that are poorly defined it's going to come down to individual DMs (read: individuals) to determine what they consider to be right.

To be clear though, I never said you were a condition. "Spellblade" is a condition, and it is a condition that only has meaning if it is associated with you, which to me means it is local because you are a point in space (whether or not you are a mobile point or capable of changing is not relevant in this case.)

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, whatever.

About the spellblade "condition," does the game recognize conditions outside the specified ones? I think it's considered an effect, like a spell, instead.

Someone convince me that the Su wish doesn't allow SR for the transport option.

Specific: Transport using wish allows an unwilling target SR. Note, it's not the wish allowing SR, it's the result of a specific effect that the spell can result in; the spell's description emphasizes that SR works to block this transport, not just the stat block.

General: Su versions of spells don't allow SR.

Hmm. Managed to half convince myself there. Anyone wanna help.



Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.That's a good point. I don't know how to argue it otherwise.

Um... How about the Su type applies after whether or not it needs SR?

[Psyren]

Someone convince me that the Su wish doesn't allow SR for the transport option.

Specific: Transport using wish allows an unwilling target SR. Note, it's not the wish allowing SR, it's the result of a specific effect that the spell can result in; the spell's description emphasizes that SR works to block this transport, not just the stat block.

General: Su versions of spells don't allow SR.

Hmm. Managed to half convince myself there. Anyone wanna help.

Basically that line is just repeating the regular SR rule much like Telekinesis and Veil do. It is not actually stating anything new.

Alternatively, you can read it this way: it says "SR applies" - i.e. SR would apply to Su Wish just like it would to any other supernatural ability, which is to say not at all.

[Snowbluff]

The spell resistance part should be "see text." :l

[Phelix-Mu]

"Condition" sounds like a term so poorly defined by the rules and of such general use in common parlance that nailing down anything specific is going to be problematic.

And "local" is even worse. What exactly is the range of local? Same plane? What about Athas over there? This might not work on the other planet on this version of the Prime.

To my ear, I'd probably go with "condition" being a quality of a thing that is, rather than a thing. The condition of the car isn't the car itself, or a full list of its parts, or "fuzzy dice" if those happen to be hanging from the mirror.

"Local" sounds like nearby, but it doesn't exclude vast areas that also include the local area. The "local" area is North America. That's not untrue.

So condition is more of a problem to the spellblade. I don't think the spellblade itself is a condition. Does the "effect" of the spellblade confer upon the wielder a special condition? Hmm. Yeah, sounds like it does. Except that is impossible to prove by RAW, since even "effect" is not well-defined in the context of the game.

[Snowbluff]

All spells are considered effects. IHS works on them. That's the best I got.

[137beth]

All spells are considered effects. IHS works on them. That's the best I got.

But IHS calls out spells, conditions, and effects as if they are three separate things.

[Slithery D]

There's a Pathfinder product that implicitly assumes Wish/Miracle bypasses Dimensional Lock and similar effects.

In the Adventure Path Wrath of the Righteous 5: Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, there's a confrontation with the demon lord Baphomet. His tactics include a note that he'll use his 1/day Miracle to escape (to a location on the same plane) if reduced below a certain number of HP.

Since he would ordinarily be able to Teleport Without Error at will to the same location, the logical inference is that he uses this as a last resort to bypass any teleport denial used by the PCs or that his sanctum he retreats to has such teleport denial effects as part of its defenses.

Not 3rd Edition and not definitive just because an adventure path author put it in there, but suggestive.

[Snowbluff]

But IHS calls out spells, conditions, and effects as if they are three separate things.


A spell is a one-time magical effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/magicOverview.htm)

<- Expert on IHS. ToB's lousy editing isn't errata to this fact. :smalltongue:

[Telok]

Since it allows a Will save you can use the ToB maneuver to replace your save with a Concentration check. Those are easier to kick sky high and don't fail on ones.

Of course than you're back to the "Who has more ice assassins" thing.

[Darkweave31]

Would there, perhaps, be a way to counterspell the wish? I'm thinking it would be possible because it has unlimited range for that function and thus could be used to counterspell at an unlimited range too.

[Snowbluff]

Would there, perhaps, be a way to counterspell the wish? I'm thinking it would be possible because it has unlimited range for that function and thus could be used to counterspell at an unlimited range too.

My days as an abjurer are coming back to me... IIRC, counterspelling has no stipulations on range, you just do it. However, I think you need to know it's happening first.

[Darkweave31]

Any way to get battlemagic perception to function at unlimited range? Or perhaps divine defiance?


If you have something like arcane sight or detect magic you could make a spellcraft check to identify the wish without needing to see it being cast.

[Jack_Simth]

How does a high level wizard protect themselves from being Wish'd from their private demiplane into, for example, an antimagic field? I started thinking contingencies, but those shouldn't function inside an AMF. I know that Wish used to transport someone grants a will save, but can't caster level be raised arbitrarily high?

Any ideas?

1) Boost your will save into the stratosphere. And get Moment of Prescience as well.
2) Pick up the feat Martial Stance (and it's prerequisites) from Tome of Battle. Pick Aura of Perfect Order.
3) Get the Pride Domain power (there's a feat for it in... was it Manual of the Planes or The Planar Handbook? ... Planar Touchstone(Catalogues of Enlightenment))
4) Get a pile of luckblades of 0 wishes (for the 1/day reroll) (doesn't stack with Pride Domain).
4) Get a Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind for Moment of Perfect Mind (replace a Will save with a Concentration check - which does NOT fail on a nat-1 - 1/encounter)
5) Get yourself constantly under Foresight (so you can take the immediate action)


The first Wish per round, you roll an 11 automatically via Aura of Perfect Order. Possibly toss Moment of Prescience on there as well.
For the rest, the Pride Domain power lets you reroll 1's.

So as long as your Will save optimization is better than the attacker's save DC optimization (which is usually easy):
At 1/round, you win.
At 2/round, it'll take (on average) 400 rounds to move you (and 800 Wishes).
At 3/round, it'll take (on average) 200 rounds to move you (and 600 Wishes).
At X/round, it'll take (on average) 400/(X-1) rounds to move you (and X*(400/(X-1)) Wishes).

Yes, you can still be got. It just takes a very large amount of cheddar. By the time you're doing that sort of Wish farming, you've got other ways to deal (like, say, pet Simulacrum Solars doing their own periodic Transport Traveler's Wish to retrieve you).

[Snowbluff]

3) Wizards have an option to get domain powers without a feat. :3

[Rubik]

You could always merge yourself with a dvati, Shapechange into a black pudding, and slice and dice yourself up for nigh infinite hiveminded clones. Then it doesn't matter if they pull you in or not; the best they'll get is one of your many, many, many bodies.

[Snowbluff]

You could always merge yourself with a dvati, Shapechange into a black pudding, and slice and dice yourself up for nigh infinite hiveminded clones. Then it doesn't matter if they pull you in or not; the best they'll get is one of your many, many, many bodies.

I am legion, for we are many!

[Doc_Maynot]

Wouldn't they suffer that little drawback that if one of the twins die the other begins to wither away?

[Snowbluff]

Wouldn't they suffer that little drawback that if one of the twins die the other begins to wither away?
Only one of the originals would.

THey cast in pairs, too. So if someone were to try to wish you over, they would get effectively 10 wizards wondering why this other one wizard is being a pain.

[Rubik]

Wouldn't they suffer that little drawback that if one of the twins die the other begins to wither away?Snowbluff's reasoning aside, by the time you're dealing with Wishes, self-resurrection (not Resurrection) is easy, especially when you can cast it on yourself.

And that's assuming the other party can actually kill you. Killing a proper high level wizard isn't at all easy, even for another wizard.

[TypoNinja]

There's a Pathfinder product that implicitly assumes Wish/Miracle bypasses Dimensional Lock and similar effects.

In the Adventure Path Wrath of the Righteous 5: Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, there's a confrontation with the demon lord Baphomet. His tactics include a note that he'll use his 1/day Miracle to escape (to a location on the same plane) if reduced below a certain number of HP.

Since he would ordinarily be able to Teleport Without Error at will to the same location, the logical inference is that he uses this as a last resort to bypass any teleport denial used by the PCs or that his sanctum he retreats to has such teleport denial effects as part of its defenses.

Not 3rd Edition and not definitive just because an adventure path author put it in there, but suggestive.

Couple of problems with drawing conclusions from that adventure path.

Miracle and Wish are not equivalent when using it for strange effects. Miracle is literally asking your God for a favor, so if your deity is in a good mood or particularly fond of you he might just grant you something really off the wall. Where as Wish is actually allowed to not be completely successful when not wishing for one of the "safe" effects.

Demon Lords are actual Deities in Pathfinder.

Deities casting their own Miracle spell sets up all kinds of interesting questions that probably don't have a good answer.

[malonkey1]

Contingent Greater Teleport back to the user's previous position, triggered by involuntary teleportation? It's got limitations that a wish doesn't, sure, but it won't be trumped by (Su) wish as easily.

[Psyren]

So as long as your Will save optimization is better than the attacker's save DC optimization (which is usually easy):

Doesn't DC optimization have a higher ceiling thanks to Taint, Circle Magic etc?


You could always merge yourself with a dvati, Shapechange into a black pudding, and slice and dice yourself up for nigh infinite hiveminded clones. Then it doesn't matter if they pull you in or not; the best they'll get is one of your many, many, many bodies.

Depends on why they want you - a Mindrape on just one of your bodies will only control that one, but they'll still learn everything you know.

[Rubik]

Depends on why they want you - a Mindrape on just one of your bodies will only control that one, but they'll still learn everything you know.Note that this is only one option that can be used in tandem with dozens of others, and it has all sorts of side-benefits, as well.

[Jack_Simth]

Doesn't DC optimization have a higher ceiling thanks to Taint, Circle Magic etc?Depends on how much optimization is in the game, and how you rate different forms of it. Save DC is 10 + Spell Level + Casting Stat + [a very few number of methods to get numbers up]. Save (for a straight Wizard-20) is 12+Wisdom+[several different items that grant bonuses]+[several different spells that grant bonuses]+[a few other methods to get the numbers up]

So while yes, there's a couple of close-to-uncapped methods for increasing your save DC, there's a large number of stacking small bonuses available to saves (and a few close-to-uncapped methods for increasing your will save, specifically).

[Snowbluff]

Doesn't DC optimization have a higher ceiling thanks to Taint, Circle Magic etc?


You can get nigh infinite for either. Barghests are a thing. Combine with that cloning trick and you can have saves as high as you want.

[Psyren]

You can get nigh infinite for either. Barghests are a thing. Combine with that cloning trick and you can have saves as high as you want.

Even if you're able to do that faster than a taint user is able to profane himself in various ways, you can still roll a natural one. Moment of Perfect Mind will save you then, but only once per round, and you have to use it before you know if you've rolled the one or not.

[Snowbluff]

Even if you're able to do that faster than a taint user is able to profane himself in various ways, you can still roll a natural one. Moment of Perfect Mind will save you then, but only once per round, and you have to use it before you know if you've rolled the one or not.
Wizards who have the Pride Domain say what? Domain Granted Power is an ACF for them. :smalltongue:

I'm sure there's a way to get a bunch of shapechanged oozed cohorts to get split up then dropped via consumptive field. It's all about the execution. Maybe attack them with cloud of knives?

[Psyren]

Wizards who have the Pride Domain say what? Domain Granted Power is an ACF for them. :smalltongue:

Hm, so they have to make you roll two 1s in a row. Not impossible if they're throwing NI wishes at you, but does make it more of a concerted effort.


I'm sure there's a way to get a bunch of shapechanged oozed cohorts to get split up then dropped via consumptive field. It's all about the execution. Maybe attack them with cloud of knives?

Won't that just raise your CL, HP and Strength? None of those seem like they'll protect you from wishnap.

[Snowbluff]

Hm, so they have to make you roll two 1s in a row. Not impossible if they're throwing NI wishes at you, but does make it more of a concerted effort.
Yeah, you start falling off the RNG. Your opponent will have to eat or sleep eventually. Bring Mountain Dew.



Won't that just raise your CL, HP and Strength? None of those seem like they'll protect you from wishnap.
Consumptive Field would raise those, but you're just using it to make sure the clones are dead. The free action splits them with cloud of knives (assuming you treat it as a dagger) or helps kill them. You order them to stab each other with claws or something if not. Then you each them with your full action.

[Psyren]

Yeah, you start falling off the RNG. Your opponent will have to eat or sleep eventually. Bring Mountain Dew.

That's one of the problems with defending against this though - it can be usable by any number of bad guys, and there is only one of you. (Well, there are potentially multitudes of you - but depending on why they want you they may only need one.) So while it is possible an individual opponent may need to eat or sleep (and even this is not guaranteed), get enough of them interested in you and you could wind up fending off wishes literally around the clock.