Ruby Nightmare Blade, what gets multiplied?

[Yael]

The maneuver (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/ruby-nightmare-blade--3636/) states:

You attempt a Concentration check as part of this maneuver, using the target creature’s AC as the DC of the check. You then make a single melee attack against your target. This attack is also made as part of this maneuver. If your Concentration check succeeds, this melee attack deals double normal melee damage. If your check fails, your attack is made with a –2 penalty and deals only normal melee damage.

If your strike is a critical hit, you stack the multipliers as normal (PH 304).

So, assuming that I get a critical (say, with a Scythe,) what does get multiplied by 4? The double damage is threated as increasing the critical multiplier, from x4 to x5? Does it mean that I must first deal double dice damage, then add the x4 from the multiplier? Does this mean that if there's a crit, no maneuver damage is done?

I'm sorry being that ignorant >x< I really don't know what happens when this maneuver crits.

[Zombimode]

It helps if you look at damage like this:

(base weapon damage + static modifiers) * factor + bonus damage dice

Per default, factor is 1. A normal critical hit increases the factor by 1, thus you get the standard x2 crit damage.

Everything that muliplies your damage just increases the factor by a certain amount X. To get X of a certain instance of damage multiplying, get the difference between the multiplier the instance states and 1. So to get X for a x2 crit weapon, we calculate 2 - 1 = 1.
To get X for Rube Nightmare Blade, we calculate 2 - 1 = 1.
To get X for a x4 crit weapon like the scythe, we calculate 4 - 1 = 3.

A crit with a scythe using Ruby Nightmare Blade would do:

(base weapon damage + static modifiers) * 5 + bonus damage dice

Clear? :smallsmile:

[Necroticplague]

Another way that gets identical results to think about it is that when you multiply damage, you aren't actually multiplying:you're adding percentages. So the scythe's crit normally a +300% (a quadrupling), using Ruby Nightmare Blade is a +100% (a doubling), and when they both coincide, you add the two together to get a +400% (a quintupling).

[Dusk Eclipse]

For what it's worth page 43 of ToB states that you don't multiply extra damage from maneuvers when you crit, it says to treat it is as "extra damage from a special ability like sneak attack"

[HunterOfJello]

For what it's worth page 43 of ToB states that you don't multiply extra damage from maneuvers when you crit, it says to treat it is as "extra damage from a special ability like sneak attack"

I believe that this section of the ToB fully explains what should happen. The mention at the bottom of the maneuver makes it clear that you are stacking multipliers, not multiplying multipliers.

~~~~~

Now, if you wanted to talk about Greater Insightful Strike, then that's a whole different conversation.

[Necroticplague]

For what it's worth page 43 of ToB states that you don't multiply extra damage from maneuvers when you crit, it says to treat it is as "extra damage from a special ability like sneak attack"

Its not really worth anything in this case, because the maneuver itself isn't doing extra damage, its just multiplies the damage of an attack. That line is for things like Burning Blade.

[Yael]

It helps if you look at damage like this:

(base weapon damage + static modifiers) * factor + bonus damage dice

Per default, factor is 1. A normal critical hit increases the factor by 1, thus you get the standard x2 crit damage.

Everything that muliplies your damage just increases the factor by a certain amount X. To get X of a certain instance of damage multiplying, get the difference between the multiplier the instance states and 1. So to get X for a x2 crit weapon, we calculate 2 - 1 = 1.
To get X for Rube Nightmare Blade, we calculate 2 - 1 = 1.
To get X for a x4 crit weapon like the scythe, we calculate 4 - 1 = 3.

A crit with a scythe using Ruby Nightmare Blade would do:

(base weapon damage + static modifiers) * 5 + bonus damage dice

Clear? :smallsmile:

Another way that gets identical results to think about it is that when you multiply damage, you aren't actually multiplying:you're adding percentages. So the scythe's crit normally a +300% (a quadrupling), using Ruby Nightmare Blade is a +100% (a doubling), and when they both coincide, you add the two together to get a +400% (a quintupling).

These two did really help.


For what it's worth page 43 of ToB states that you don't multiply extra damage from maneuvers when you crit, it says to treat it is as "extra damage from a special ability like sneak attack"

I believe that this section of the ToB fully explains what should happen. The mention at the bottom of the maneuver makes it clear that you are stacking multipliers, not multiplying multipliers.

~~~~~

Now, if you wanted to talk about Greater Insightful Strike, then that's a whole different conversation.

And I will check out ToB, p43.

Thank you.

[Thiyr]

For what it's worth page 43 of ToB states that you don't multiply extra damage from maneuvers when you crit, it says to treat it is as "extra damage from a special ability like sneak attack"

Interesting side note, though. While probably not applicable in this instance due to how the maneuver is worded, if you have something which multiplies damage, it'll multiply all that extra bonus damage unless otherwise specified. In this case, because it says "double normal melee damage". But if you, say, sneak attack or use a maneuver while using a dive attack, the whole thing will get multiplied. Given how rare multipliers are, its not often that it comes up, but criticals are the only thing that have the general rule of "bonus damage dice don't get multiplied". So RNB -might- double those, depending on what you "assume normal melee damage" means. It's pretty obvious it doesn't include crits, but other stuff may get multiplied. YMMV


(Edit: Also relevant, while multipliers stacking as described above is correct, remember that that is only for a given "abstract value such as dice roll modifiers". If you have two things multiplying different but related things, multiplication could be argued to work differently unless stated otherwise (so again, say you somehow manage to twist the action economy to your whims and only decide to use that with the monk's Decisive Strike ACF and the Vital Strike feat from Pathfinder instead of something more productive, you'd get weapon damage x4 (weapon damage is doubled from vital strike, flat damage is added, total damage is doubled from decisive strike).