How do you get Mindsight without Mindbender or Psionic Classes?

[aleucard]

Exactly what it says up top. I'm going to be playing a Factotum in a campaign soon (possibly going into Shadow Sun Ninja with Carmedine Monk), and I want something that'll let me work as a sensor to an acceptable degree. Mindsight qualifies, and is the obvious focus of this topic (though if you got other suggestions on top of this, I'm all ears). I want to minimize my multiclassing and am a LG type, while also expecting little if any modifications from the RAW, so Mindbender is out. I may be taking the Mind version of Hellbred as a race, but that doesn't come active until level 15, and I might also go Human instead. To summarize, what I'm wondering is if there are any ways for me to get access to Mindsight before level 15 that don't need me to either multiclass away from my concept (at the moment, the concept is Unarmed Factotum/SSN, but that may change if the DM doesn't like ToB) or ask for rules modifications. I don't know how welcome Dragon Magazine material is, either. Thanks for any help!

[Doc_Maynot]

While not doable by a factotum, a binder that can bind Zceryll gets it and telepathy

[Flickerdart]

The Lists of Stuff give these sources for telepathy (the prerequisite for the Mindsight feat):
Telepathic Bond, spell, SRD
Mindlink, power, XPH
Animal Lord 8, ecl 13, Complete Adventurer, 100' with selected animal totem
Mindbender 1, ecl 6, Complete Arcane, 100'
Incarnate 7 (Tiefling substitution level), Magic of Incarnum, 100'
Shedu Crown, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum, 100'
Soulspeaker Circlet, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum, 20'/essentia
Ghostwise Halfling, race (LA+0), Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, 20'
Hellbred (spirit aspect), race, Fiendish Codex II, 100' at 15 HD
Psion 5 (Telepath), Mind's Eye expanded class (link), 5'/manifester level
Demonbinder 1, ecl 8, Drow of the Underdark, 100'
Planeshifter 7, ecl 16, Manual of the Planes, 100'

[Inevitability]

Pseudodragons gain telepathy.

Succubi also gain it at 2nd level if you take the monster class. Note that this will force you to be stuck in that class for 12 levels. The alignment may seem an issue, but maybe work a Helm of Opposite Alignment in your backstory?

And the Shedu Crown soulmeld gives you telepathy, but I'm not too familiar with Incarnum. Does Shape Soulmeld let you pick it up?

Ghostwise Halflings also gain it, over a range of 20 feet.

[Zaq]

Fell Conspiracy, from Exemplars of Evil, is not an evil act and does not require a nongood alignment, despite the name and the source. In addition to giving the whole party a really huge bonus to Spot and Listen, it gives you intraparty telepathy. Mindsight doesn't specify that you have to be able to telepathically communicate with the creature you're sensing, so Fell Conspiracy lets you qualify for Mindsight. It's an awesome feat and every party can benefit from having a character take it.

It does cost you 50 gp per day to activate the ritual, but given that the telepathy portion comes online at level 5, that's a tiny, tiny fraction of WBL, especially given that it can easily be split amongst the party, since everyone benefits.

[Karnith]

And the Shedu Crown soulmeld gives you telepathy, but I'm not too familiar with Incarnum. Does Shape Soulmeld let you pick it up?
To get the telepathy, you'd need Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown) and Open Least Chakra (Crown). Since Open Least Chakra comes online at level 6, you'd be able to take Mindsight at level 9.

Three feats is a fairly steep cost, though.

[WhamBamSam]

Alter Self/Polymorph+Assume Supernatural Ability can get you telepathy if you can find the right form. If you plan to multiclass out of Factotum into something other than Chameleon, Alter Self is probably the better option, which probably means some manner of exotic type race, like Dragonwrought Kobold, Neraph, Otherworldly Deep Imaskari/Grey Elf, Synad, or Elan. Dragonwrought Kobold has the problem that by strict RAW, having Blindsense makes you beatable by Darkstalker, even if you're using Mindsight instead. You might have to do some book diving for a low HD Telepathic Outsider or Aberration, but I'm sure one exists.

[aleucard]

Thus far, the only idea that's been floated that even fits my requirements as described in the first post is the Incarnum suggestion, and I am NOT familiar with that ruleset.

Unless if the class itself would be of use to a Factotum, please don't suggest class dips for getting it. Suggesting races that get it is equally useless, since that's already locked in.

I have an idea. Are there any items that give Telepathy (and I think that it needs to explicitly give it, since I want as little grumbling about RAW as possible), and I can just try to convince my DM to allow it to be (for lack of a better phrase) grafted to my character? Mindlink, Telepathic Bond and similar wouldn't work in my book if I was DM, so going that route feels too cheesy for me. Similar can be said for things that only give it temporarily like Alter Self and friends.

If nothing exists that would give it, I am willing to tide myself over with something else until I get access at 15 or just scrap it entirely if I go Human.

[Chambers]

Thus far, the only idea that's been floated that even fits my requirements as described in the first post is the Incarnum suggestion, and I am NOT familiar with that ruleset.

The Fell Conspiracy feat (as mentioned by Zaq) also fits your requirements. There's no alignment tag on the feat and you get group Telepathy when you have 8 ranks in Knowledge: Religion.

Fluff-wise, it's a great feat for a Factotum to take. "Hey guys, I learned this ritual after taking down the Cult of Evil Bad God. Don't worry, the process isn't actually evil, they just learned how to tap into each persons latent mental power through a ritual that links the minds of the participants."

[WhamBamSam]

Thus far, the only idea that's been floated that even fits my requirements as described in the first post is the Incarnum suggestion, and I am NOT familiar with that ruleset.

Unless if the class itself would be of use to a Factotum, please don't suggest class dips for getting it. Suggesting races that get it is equally useless, since that's already locked in.

I have an idea. Are there any items that give Telepathy (and I think that it needs to explicitly give it, since I want as little grumbling about RAW as possible), and I can just try to convince my DM to allow it to be (for lack of a better phrase) grafted to my character? Mindlink, Telepathic Bond and similar wouldn't work in my book if I was DM, so going that route feels too cheesy for me. Similar can be said for things that only give it temporarily like Alter Self and friends.

If nothing exists that would give it, I am willing to tide myself over with something else until I get access at 15 or just scrap it entirely if I go Human.Actually, it turns out the Alter Self+Assume Supernatural Ability suggestion would work from a human base thanks to the Ghostwise Halfling that people mentioned.

I don't think the Shedu Crown actually qualifies you for Mindsight, as it doesn't appear to actually give you the Telepathy special quality.

EDIT: Nevermind. The Ghostwise Halfling doesn't qualify for Mindsight either, as its telepathy is not Telepathy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Unless if the class itself would be of use to a Factotum, please don't suggest class dips for getting it. Suggesting races that get it is equally useless, since that's already locked in.
A one or two level dip in Incarnate (and two levels is all you need for the Shedu Crown bind) would be pretty helpful for a Factotum-- tons of lovely skill boosts and neat minor effects. Since Incarnum largely scales with character level, rather than class level, it multiclasses well.

[Jowgen]

I second the Ghostwise halfling. Other than the +1 to all saves, they get the same goodies as regular Halflings, which seem like they might work well for a build. Their telepathy ability, while limited, does seem like it should qualify for Mindsight (more so than Fell Conspiracy imo)


Speak without Sound (Su): A ghostwise halfling, unlike other halflings, can communicate telepathically with any creature within 20 feet, just as if speaking to him or her. The halfling can only speak and listen to one person at a time, and he must share a common language with the person or creature he speaks to telepathically, or the telepathic link fails.

[aleucard]

Alter Self and Polymorph are no-goes. They are non-permanent, and using it as my reasoning for getting the feat sounds like someone using the stats from one of those forms to qualify for any other feat, even when they don't normally qualify. Isn't there a rule against doing things like using Helmets of Intelligence to get Combat Expertise and friends?

Tome of Battle is scrapped, or to be more specific, anything that involves the madness that is Maneuvers is scrapped, thanks to them invalidating entire books' worth of other martial classes. Meh, I can live with that. What this does, however, is make my current build much more fluid than previously. Thus far, my best idea is to use dips like Carmedine Monk and Swashbuckler to get +Int to various combat-related things and employ Trip/AoO tactics when my buffs either stack or run out; I'm trying to find some of the good ones that give boosts that are useless to Casters but would be useful to me (example: Tenser's Transformation if I am allowed to get outside-WBL to cover the cost of that many potions). If you got a build suggestion that would incorporate early Mindsight access without sacrificing too many Factotum levels, I'm all ears.

[Flickerdart]

anything that involves the madness that is Maneuvers is scrapped, thanks to them invalidating entire books' worth of other martial classes
Do you also ban druids and clerics?

[thethird]

I don't see anything in the OP that would preclude a greensnake naga although they have 1 LA they have good traits other than their telepathy (30ft is the sanest reading)

[aleucard]

Do you also ban druids and clerics?

No idea, but I get the impression that people are assumed to be able to self-police on that, and that most are able to diversify their playstyles enough to not step on each other's toes TOO badly. There's multiple people and multiple DM's involved, so a party can be adjusted easily for game balance. And before the warning lights start blaring for you, I'm getting a sort of Pathfinder Society vibe from the group on how they run things.

And having a couple melee monsters on the team isn't as bad as it looks. Flanking IS a thing, after all.

Thethird; the thing that would preclude it is that my Race is already narrowed down to either Hellbred or Human.

[thethird]

I'm sorry I didn't read "may and might" as "either".

[Necroticplague]

Alter Self and Polymorph are no-goes. They are non-permanent, and using it as my reasoning for getting the feat sounds like someone using the stats from one of those forms to qualify for any other feat, even when they don't normally qualify. Isn't there a rule against doing things like using Helmets of Intelligence to get Combat Expertise and friends?

Actually, the rules implicitly do allow you to use temporary things to qualify for things very strongly. They have rules that say if you cease qualifying, you still have it, but you can't use it (so if you were using the helmet to qualify, you can't use Combat Expertise while you have it off). This strongly implies that you can qualify temporarily for something, otherwise that rule would have no reason to exist. Similarly, while talking about prereqs, it never says that it has to be permanent, only that you have to meet them. So using the stats of a polymorphed form to qualify for, say Power Attack? Perfectly legal, you'd just have a useless feat when you go back to your native form that doesn't qualify.

[aleucard]

Actually, the rules implicitly do allow you to use temporary things to qualify for things very strongly. They have rules that say if you cease qualifying, you still have it, but you can't use it (so if you were using the helmet to qualify, you can't use Combat Expertise while you have it off). This strongly implies that you can qualify temporarily for something, otherwise that rule would have no reason to exist. Similarly, while talking about prereqs, it never says that it has to be permanent, only that you have to meet them. So using the stats of a polymorphed form to qualify for, say Power Attack? Perfectly legal, you'd just have a useless feat when you go back to your native form that doesn't qualify.

Still too cheesy for me to do it in a non-Tippyverse campaign where I'm not trying to get books thrown at me. Sorry. You have anything else? An actual item that gives Telepathy would work since I'm planning on seeing if I can get items grafted to my character and refluffed as inborn abilities (probably for a percentage penalty to WBL, but meh), as would a specific class if you can give build advice on incorporating it into a Factotum without sacrificing too many levels of that.