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cupkeyk
2007-02-27, 10:43 AM
Someone posted and asked for the best possible spell list for a sorcerer. I play bards if I am not a wizard or a rogue. My preferred PRC is so far Lyric Thaumaturge topping it up with Sublime Chord.

Given five slots per level except for zero that get six and sixth that gets 4 list down the most optimal spells a bard should put in his repertoire. Also add in a kicker spell from levels one to six to represent the Sorc/Wiz spell that you think should be in that list (because lyric thaumaturge and sublime chord can select spells from the wizard /sorc list anyway.)

I will put up my own list when this has been answered a few times.

Your input is much appreciated and it will help me in my future adventures as a harpy.

Telonius
2007-02-27, 11:20 AM
This is assuming you're the primary arcane caster (good luck). It has quite a few overlaps with a Batman spell-list. If you have a wizard or sorcerer in the group, you may want to make a few changes. Always work with the other members of your group to make sure your spell selections complement each other!

Level 0:
Summon Instrument
Detect Magic
Know Direction
Light
Read Magic
Resistance

Level 1:
Feather Fall
Grease
Comprehend Languages
Expeditious Retreat
Charm Person

Level 2:
Glitterdust
Blindness/Deafness
Invisibility (Switch out for Silence when you get Greater Invis)
Mirror Image
Tongues (Normally not a great spell, but other Bard spells are language-dependent)

Level 3:
Blink
Haste
Remove Curse
Dispel Magic (Switch out for Slow when you get Greater)
See Invisibility

Level 4:
Break Enchantment
Dimension Door
Rainbow Pattern
Greater Invisibility
Freedom of Movement

Level 5:
Greater Dispel Magic
Song of Discord
Mass Suggestion
Greater Heroism
Mind Fog

Level 6:
Irresistable Dance
Geas/Quest
Analyze Dweomer
Eyebite (if evil) or Heroes' Feast (if good)

Macrovore
2007-02-27, 12:19 PM
you musn't forget the best bard spell ever: Glibness.:smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2007-02-27, 12:29 PM
Glibness is an excellent spell, but you can get it in scroll or potion form. It's not an "every day" sort of spell. If you have any arcane caster in the group besides yourself, I'd switch out one of the 3rd-level "batman" spells to get it.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-02-27, 12:35 PM
Forget Tongues and Comprehend Languages. You have Speak Language as a class skill, and you get a good chunk of skill points and a piddling pile of spells known. Don't do with a spell what you can do with your skills.

cupkeyk
2007-02-27, 12:42 PM
Forget Tongues and Comprehend Languages. You have Speak Language as a class skill, and you get a good chunk of skill points and a piddling pile of spells known. Don't do with a spell what you can do with your skills.

And decipher script for the case of archaic or otherworldly texts.

Isomenes
2007-02-27, 12:52 PM
This is assuming you're the primary arcane caster (good luck). It has quite a few overlaps with a Batman spell-list. If you have a wizard or sorcerer in the group, you may want to make a few changes. Always work with the other members of your group to make sure your spell selections complement each other!

Level 0:
Summon InstrumentPrestidigitation
Detect Magic
Know DirectionMessage
Light
Read Magic
Resistance


I have always wondered about Summon Instrument. I guess part of it is how I view the bard, but I like Perform (oratory) and Perform (winds). The whole idea being that you can use your body (speech, whistling) as your instrument even if someone takes your horn or flute. I would replace it with the more generally useful Prestidigitation. Message is also much more useful than Know Direction, in that it allows you to target your Fascinate and other enchantments much more closely.


Level 1:
Feather Fall
Grease
Comprehend LanguagesInspirational Boost
Expeditious Retreat
Charm PersonCure Light Wounds


Remember, Speak Language is a class skill for bards. Instead of Comprehend Languages, go with Inspirational Boost (Complete Adventurer)--casting it is a swift action and adds a +1 to your Inspire Courage bonuses. At worst, maybe prepare a few scrolls of Comprehend Lang. before pitching it at 4th. The trouble with Charm Person is two-fold: it's limited to people, and its save DC is not so good. CLW is generally better , not so that you can a healer, but you have the option in dire straits.



Level 2:
Glitterdust
Blindness/DeafnessEagle's Grace
Invisibility (Switch out for Silence when you get Greater Invis)
Mirror Image
Tongues (Normally not a great spell, but other Bard spells are language-dependent)


Eagle's Grace! Save DCs are worth it. (Especially if you also have a magic item that boosts your Cha.) I'm still not sure about Tongues, but I have no real objection to it--it's generally more useful than CL for a bard.


Level 3:
Blink
Haste
Remove Curse
Dispel Magic (Switch out for Slow when you get Greater)
See InvisibilityGlibness or Charm Monster


Glitterdust might obviate the need for See Invisibility.

I'm still crawling my way up through third level spells, but my suggestions are based on field testing. Any given DM plays differently, so mileage may vary.

cupkeyk
2007-02-27, 01:01 PM
Except that Charm Person is an easy qualification for Mindbender which is an awesome one level dip for the bard.

Telonius
2007-02-27, 01:10 PM
I'd take the opposite opinion there. Not counting Common and Druidic, there are 18 standard languages in D&D. Perform, Spellcraft, Concentration, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy, and Bluff are usually maxed out for a Bard. Toss in 5 ranks of Knowledge (local) for the synergy to Bardic Knowledge, and 15 in Tumble for mobility, and you're looking at a pretty full skill slate. And that's not even putting in any ranks in useful skills like Knowledge (arcana), Search, Listen, Spot... You'd need a base Int of at least 14 (12 if you're a human) to get more than the basics, and then you're getting close to MAD territory. (You already need Cha for spells and abilities, Dex due to lack of heavy armor, and Con for the low hit die). It's a lot easier to just have the spell and put your skill points into something else.

Then again, if you get yourself a magic item like a "Helm of Comprehend Languages," or a widget/potion of Tongues, you can switch out the spell for something else (possibly Darkness or Suggestion).

Telonius
2007-02-27, 01:14 PM
Inspirational Boost (Complete Adventurer)--casting it is a swift action and adds a +1 to your Inspire Courage bonuses.
Hm, I'm just going from Core, but that definitely sounds like a good one if you have access to it.

cupkeyk
2007-02-27, 01:15 PM
And Half Elf Bards will want five ranks in Knowledge Nobility and Royalty, Sense Motive and Bluff. Possibly Knowledge Local for Urban Trackers too.

Darrin
2007-02-27, 02:21 PM
I would replace it with the more generally useful Prestidigitation.

Seconded. Prestidigitation should be your first 0-level pick, it's just too darned useful.



Remember, Speak Language is a class skill for bards. Instead of Comprehend Languages, go with Inspirational Boost (Complete Adventurer)--casting it is a swift action and adds a +1 to your Inspire Courage bonuses.

I'd go with Unseen Servant. Our group always refers to this spell as "Jeeves", and it's the quintessential "batman" utility spell:

"Jeeves, drop this flask of alchemist's fire/smokestick/thunderstone in that square ten feet in front of me." (no attack roll to drop things)
"Jeeves, go spread this bag of caltrops in that square ten feet in front of me."
"Jeeves, go clean up those caltrops for me."
"Jeeves, dump these bags of flour over the four squares in front of me." (poor man's glitterdust/see invisible)
"Jeeves, reload this crossbow for me." (poor man's rapid reload)
"Jeeves, go get my net and fold it for me so I can throw it again later."
"Jeeves, pick up any weapons that Mr. Meatshield disarms and toss them over there."
"Jeeves, help Mr. Meatshield put on his full plate armor."
"Jeeves, get my scroll of see invisibility out of my pack and hand it to me."
"Jeeves, light my web spell on fire with this tindertwig." (not sure if grease is flammable)
"Jeeves, go forward ten feet, turn left, and blow this horn of fog to create some cover."
"Jeeves, wave this winter blanket to get rid of some of that stupid fog you created."
"Jeeves, play these drums of panic for us."
"Jeeves, hold this small-sized darkwood tower shield in front of our useless gnome so he might at least have some cover."
"Jeeves, hold this torch/lantern/sunrod for me."
"Jeeves, go open the chest we suspect is trapped."
"Jeeves, create a diversion so I can hide." (Bluff check)
"Jeeves, draw me a rough map of all the rooms and passages within your spell range." (Craft check, most likely DC 10 for a typical item)
"Jeeves, demoralize my opponents with intimidate checks." (Hey, he may get lucky. Not sure how you demoralize someone with an invisible, intangible, mindless entity, however. Threaten them with "What Would Gygax Do?" flyers?)
"Jeeves, if anyone approaches the camp, wake me up."
"Jeeves, play this lute for me." (DC 10 to make 1d10 cp/day.)
"Jeeves, find us some food and water." (DC 10 Survival check, feed one more person for each 2 points over 10.)
"Jeeves, secure this grappling hook to the top of the wall."
"Jeeves, aid me while I use another skill." (DC 10 to Aid Another)

Amiria
2007-02-27, 02:52 PM
Hey, I wasn't aware that the extra spells of the Lyric Thaumaturgist are sorcerer/wizard spells, really have to be sorcerer wizard spells. I thought they would also be from the bard list. I'm not so sure if that's good or bad.

Isomenes
2007-02-27, 03:11 PM
I'd go with Unseen Servant. Our group always refers to this spell as "Jeeves", and it's the quintessential "batman" utility spell:

I'm not sure it's entirely legitIt seems odd to use Unseen Servant to make skill checks given that it's mindless. But it is a neat idea.

ccelizic
2007-02-27, 04:40 PM
It can vary highly on playstyle and GM and how tactical the party is.

If complete adventurer is allowed, however, I would strongly suggest finaggling in improvisation as a level 1 spell. That spell has saved my bards bacon like you won't believe. And besides, it allows for cheesy moves if you have improved disarm or improved trip. Just drop a large bonus on the check to stack the deck in your favor. You could replace expiditious retreat with that. Once you get haste you'll find yourself dropping that spell early on in fights, and haste gives a +30 enhancement bonus to speed so it doesn't stack with expiditious retreat. Perhaps you could find some merit in taking expiditious reatreat early on while your improv bonus would be low, and then swapping the spell out for improvisation once you learn haste. I am not going to dig too deep into extra sources here (this post would become too darn long), but this is a spell that has served me well and I thought I should bring it up.

Failing extra sources, an even funner level 1 spell to finaggle in is a good ol' fashioned Hideous Laughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm). The spell was iffy in 3.0, but in 3.5 it got some loving. If you can make this spell stick vs something it'll stop the show for sure. I've managed to stop pretty hideous encounters cold in their tracks. Unlike hold person which allows repeated break free attempts, hideous laughter pretty much incapacitates the victim for an amount of rounds equal to your caster level with no chance of escape save an allied caster dropping a dispel. I have stopped a total party kill cold in it's tracks by dropping a hideous laughter on the ugly. HIdeous laughter is not without faults however, it is a level one spell (though heighten spell can amend that easily) and if the victim is not of the same type as you, it gains a hefty +4 bonus on the save. Excellent move to pull on those low will grunt fighters coming your way which are usually of the type humanoid, which is the same type as most adventuresome bards out there.

Level 2 spells:

Eagle's Grace! Save DCs are worth it. (Especially if you also have a magic item that boosts your Cha.)

Eagle's grace gives an enhancement bonus. Stat buff items give an enhancement bonus, the two do not stack. Unless you happen to be in eberron with an enterprising artificer on hand with that infusion that changes the bonus type of an item.

If you really want a spell to cram into the level 2s consider "minor image". A thing to note about illusion spells is it ONLY Provokes a save to disbelieve if you interact with the illusion. Some articles on the WOTC site went on to expand on what an interaction is, largely stating that it's anything that'd require an action dedicated to it. This spell has a whole lot of utility. Illusory walls or shrubbery or anything could be used to create partial or full concealment for your party in a combat situation, granting a 20% miss rate on attacks into people hiding behind illusory cover. Any disbelieving the shrub may see through the illusion, but who's going to waste their time in the middle of a fight to "make sure that bush is real"? Just looking at an illusion is not interacting, so therefore, it makes an excellent source of disposable redshirts for testing out if a room has hostiles inside. Drop illusion in front of door, pop open door while hiding behind doorframe, send illusion into the room. Looking at the illusion is not an interaction, if anything in the room does something to interact with the illusion they'll give themselves away by which point disbelieving is irrelevant, now the enemy just wasted their turn killing a make believe friend, and your party can capitalize off of that. Minor image at least gets the basics down for fooling people from a distance, it has sight and sound which makes it a solid illusion spell.

Level 3 spells, why take remove curse? The cleric can cast that spell, the paladin can cast that spell, the sorc/wiz can cast that spell, you'll use it probably 3 or 4 times tops in your career. You got a limited selection of spells, there's more useful things out there. Do however carry a scroll of remove curse, it's a nice contingency, but it's not worth dedicating a slot to it. Cure serious wounds however, is a solid choice in my opinion. You won't be healing as good as the cleric, you never will, but as a bard you can easily get into tight situations where that cumbersome cleric would be tripping over himself. I have saved lives with a bard through using tumble to literally move through a wall of enemy which the cleric could not penetrate and drop some recovery on some allies. It's also handy if the cleric gets floored. I've used this spell a fair amount of times when I played bard. Or even better, displacement. Displacement is a VERY sexy level 3 spell for in-your-face melee combat bard. It gives you a 50% miss chance, double that up with mirror image and you got one hard to touch bard and that's before factoring in magic armor, inspire heroics, and possibly even a light enchanted shield(just don't sing any MC hammer songs....). What you lack in hp, you can make up for with sheer evadeability. Spells like this can give a bard far more sticking power then a rogue.

Level four spells.... Freedom of movement is a hidden gem. It has a duration of 10 minutes a level. If you hammer that off with extend spell you'll be getting 3 hours of duration by mid levels. That's enough to cover a solid block of adventuring in a dungeon and covers a lot of contingencies ranging from bad terrain to binding spells to being grappled. I will note that legend lore, though not optimal, makes for excellent fluff so long as you don't mind wasting a lot of money on incense. "Man, that bard is stoned half out of his mind half the time but boy does he get odd insights..." Of course if you want something actually useful, dominate person. Hideous laughter can remove a fighter from the equation, dominate person turns him into an asset. Be wary of the +2 re-save the victim gets to resist your commands if when you turn him agianst his buddies, but do cackle with glee when it works.

And what about shadow conjuration for level 4 spells? It gives you every single sorc/wiz spell level 3 and lower. There is so much utility to be had there. And it's potency grows rather quickly when you start allowing extra sources with spell lists because every single sorc/wiz conjuration level 3 in lower in those books becomes yours suddenly. It'll even cover unseen servant. Especially handy when you are using it to shadow conjurate beneficial utility spells, you can opt to fail a save on any spell automatically.

Greater heroism grants a moral bonus to various things. Being as such a lot of it does not stack with your inspire courage so nicely. Shadow evocation however, is a nice little spell for reasons stated above in shadow conjuration.

Now, for the level 6ers. Be wary of geas, it has a rather long casting time. Do consider, however, find the path. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findThePath.htm) This spell is beautiful in that it will even show you how to bypass every single trap that comes between you and your goal, leaving you to worry about living things like guards. Truly an annoying spell to annoy the dungeon master of a carefully crafted trap infested dungeon. Also, if you REALLY need a bulldozer to derail any railroad plots or if you are just evil, or if you just like seeing things collapse then Sympathetic Vibration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sympatheticVibration.htm). Why climb to the top of a monster infested tower filled with all sorts of nasty arcane traps to kill some wicked lich when you can cast sympathetic vibration and shake the whole damn thing to the ground. True, it's overkill, it'll annoy the pants off the GM, but hey, imagine the power and prestige coming with knowing that any building you see can be rendered into rubble. And if any edifice in the realms angers you sufficienty you WILL get the last laugh.

Darrin
2007-02-27, 05:04 PM
I'm not sure it's entirely legitIt seems odd to use Unseen Servant to make skill checks given that it's mindless. But it is a neat idea.

Anything that could save you a move action or standard action helps. Yeah, the odds of an invisible intangible mindless entity actually intimidating someone are very low, but if your Unseen Servant has nothing else to do, why not? Who knows, it may get a lucky roll. Just think of the razzing you can pour on afterwards: "Aw man, you got psyched out by an unseen servant! I should just let you live with the humiliation."

Amanil
2007-02-27, 05:41 PM
Skill points are for skills, in my opinion, and my half-elf bard proves it. At 2nd level, with maxed out Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Bluff and Negotiater (Negotiator? Meh), not to mention his 18 Charisma, he gets a fairly snazy 17 for Diplomacy. (I could be wrong, but I think Bluff gives a synergy bonus to Diplomacy. I haven't played him in a while, so I can't remember for certain if he gets +15 or +17). Not bad for second level. Needless to say he deals with all manner of things involving talking to non-party members, the other party members being a dwarf fighter (guess what attribute he chose as his duff one), a sorcerer (high Charisma, but no skill points) and a cleric/rogue, who decided to go down the track of "sneaky-sneaky stealy-stealy stabby-stabby" than the Bluff etc. route.

Oh, and I never have Summon Instrument. My bard's a singer and dramatist, with one of his 5 performance types being an instrument so that when heg can scrape enough money together he can make use of a masterwork one (ever seen a masterwork pair of lungs for sale? If so, give us a call :smallwink:).

Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter.

cupkeyk
2007-02-27, 08:36 PM
Hey, I wasn't aware that the extra spells of the Lyric Thaumaturgist are sorcerer/wizard spells, really have to be sorcerer wizard spells. I thought they would also be from the bard list. I'm not so sure if that's good or bad.

It may be drawn from the Sorc/Wiz list but it may also come from the Bard list. If it appears in both, player can select to put it in lower slot.

Considering the gimping a bard's l1-3's spells will take upon going sublime chord, taking the first four levels of Lyric Thaumaturge makes sure he has as much l-13 spells as the typical bard.

cupkeyk
2007-02-28, 12:45 AM
A congregation of the thread so far with a few of my own thrown in:

Level 0:
Prestidgitation
Detect Magic
Message
Light
Read Magic
Resistance

Level 1:
Hideous Laughter
Grease
Inspirational Boost
Distort Speech (Fort save; save or suck vs. Wizards)
Charm Person

Level 2:
Glitterdust
Alter Self
Unseen Servant
Shatter
BoneFiddle

Level 3:
Blink
Haste
Cure Serious Wounds
Dispel Magic (Switch out for Slow when you get Greater)
Confusion (switch out for Slow when you get Song of Discord)

Level 4:
Dominate
Dimension Door
Modify Memory
Shadow Conjuration
Legend Lore

Level 5:
Greater Dispel Magic
Song of Discord
Improvisation
Shadow Evocation
Mind Fog

Level 6:
Irresistable Dance
Find The Path
Analyze Dweomer
Eyebite

Dr. Weasel
2007-02-28, 01:31 AM
I like Summon Instrument a lot, if only because you call a substantial object out of thin air, allowing for improvised-weapon-bashery or quick trumpet-signaling or just for that bow you need to play a truly Jimmy Page-esque guitar solo.

Darrin
2007-02-28, 10:09 AM
A congregation of the thread so far with a few of my own thrown in:

Level 1:
Distort Speech (Fort save; save or suck vs. Wizards)

Level 2:
Unseen Servant


Unseen Servant is level 1. And Distort Speech? Pretty narrow usability, there. Silence at level 2 would make more sense for shutting down a spellcaster with a lot of verbal spells (although it might also wind up hurting the bard if he's in the spell's area of effect). Hideous Laughter is going to be 100% effective compared to only 50% with Distort Speech.

If you're looking for a 1st level save or suck, Disquietude (good against melee-heavy fighters) or Cause Fear would probably be more useful than Distort Speech.

Balagarn's Iron Horn also looks pretty interesting... no save, trip attack w/ Str 20 on everyone in a cone.

Aximili
2007-02-28, 11:40 AM
Level 4:
Break Enchantment
Dimension Door
Rainbow Pattern
Greater Invisibility
Freedom of Movement

Include Improved Mirror Image! Seriously, it's a really good spell.
(maybe the name is Greater Mirror Image, not sure. But I know it's in spell compendium.)

And Distort Speech? Pretty narrow usability, there. Silence at level 2 would make more sense for shutting down a spellcaster with a lot of verbal spells (although it might also wind up hurting the bard if he's in the spell's area of effect).
Silence is Will, Distor speach is Fort. Big diference.

Darrin
2007-02-28, 12:31 PM
Silence is Will, Distor speach is Fort. Big diference.

Chucking a Thunderstone at a spellcaster does almost the same thing (Fort DC 15, 20% miscast instead of 50%).

Distort Speech is too specific. I'd rather take my chances with Hideous Laughter or Cause Fear (Will saves) and know that it'll work well on non-casters. Silence also has uses outside of hosing spellcasters... Distort Speech isn't likely to help the entire party sneak past a group of guards or a sleeping dragon.

JellyPooga
2007-02-28, 01:25 PM
It's not really an optimal spell, but it's my favourite Bard spell of all time...Insidious Rhythm (Comp.Adv.)

"I know a song that'll get on your nerves..."
or
"This is the song that ne-ver ends..."
or
[Magic roundabout theme]

and many more...

heh heh heh......:smallamused:

Talya
2007-02-28, 02:25 PM
See, this is why I don't like playing spellcasters.

I can't even imagine a use for prestidigitation that isn't horribly contrived (IE hanging upside down in a wampa -- errr...yeti cave with your lightsa....errr...dagger on the ground below you.)

In over a year playing a caster, I have yet to use most of my cantrips...

TheOOB
2007-02-28, 02:30 PM
What, prestidigitation is awesome! How it allows you to clean yourself up, mark walls so you never get lost, change water into wine (taste and color only), and do awesome slight of hand tricks.

Talya
2007-02-28, 02:35 PM
Ah, my Sunite sorceress would never settle for such an artificial "clean up." She wants her bath...

As far as getting lost? That's what the rest of the party is for. She'd never concern herself with such mundane things. If they're THAT lost, she'll teleport somewhere she knows.

Aximili
2007-02-28, 02:39 PM
Ahh... But, between spending a 5th level spell after getting lost and spending a 0 level to avoid getting lost, which one does she prefer? ;-)

Telonius
2007-02-28, 02:42 PM
Include Improved Mirror Image! Seriously, it's a really good spell.
(maybe the name is Greater Mirror Image, not sure. But I know it's in spell compendium.)

Like I said, I'm only working from core. So Greater is level 4? (Don't have my books with me here at the office. :smallwink: )

Talya
2007-02-28, 02:46 PM
Heh...no, she wouldn't be marking walls. That's what the men are for.

Some background:

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, my character is a 2nd level bard, 6th level sorceror, 5th level "Heartwarder" (Sune-based Prestige Class that adds +1 charisma every odd level and continues casting level from a previous class, so she's really an 11th level sorceror).

She was raised a harem-girl in calimshan, won her freedom when she saved her mostly benevolent owner from a bugbear invasion by instinctively incinerating them (burning hands). Her harem mistress was a sunite cleric before being sold into slavery, and she has been pampered her whole life. She's not arrogant, she's been a slave, but she's certainly sheltered, naive and NOT an outdoors type.

She's the least politically correct character I've ever played. As I'm something of a feminist, it's a bit of a blast being so backwards...

TheTick
2007-02-28, 04:07 PM
Anything that could save you a move action or standard action helps. Yeah, the odds of an invisible intangible mindless entity actually intimidating someone are very low, but if your Unseen Servant has nothing else to do, why not? Who knows, it may get a lucky roll. Just think of the razzing you can pour on afterwards: "Aw man, you got psyched out by an unseen servant! I should just let you live with the humiliation."

"Jeeves, please deliver a wedgie to the enemy 10 feet in front of me"

cupkeyk
2007-02-28, 08:25 PM
Spellcasters will have awesome will saves and centering silence on an object will mean that casters can take a move action to walk away from it. Distort Speech will catch them 60 to 70 % of the time and cause major suckage. A thunderstone is not bad but never as good as Distort Speech. Non-casters are not as dangerous as casters. And there is already glitterdust and shatter that are antitanks.

I am not a fan of wading into melee so I limit my defensive buffs to Alter Self. Turn into a Avariel Elf or a Raptoran and fly away. And blink and I am set.

Find a path does not save you from getting lost. It lets you maneuver through a dungeon safely with minimal mistakes. The ranger or barbarian or the druid can make a survival check and find north.

Ikkitosen
2007-03-01, 04:56 AM
Greater Mirror Image is drastically overpowered. The character level at which
Bards get it may be a mitigating factor.