Passive Perception and Dungeon Planning

[Secret Bard]

So in the past, when my players rolled to see if they noticed a creature lurking in the shadows, I would roll the creature's stealth checks during my dungeon building, I've found this to make the dungeon crawl go a bit smoother. With this new edition; however, I am thinking about adopting the passive perception rule. So my question is, should I still role the stealth checks during the building phase if I am using this rule?

I think the problem I might have with doing this is that I will know before hand who will see the creature and who will not, and that this knowledge might cause me to meta game, which is something I don't like doing.

[pwykersotz]

I find that the level of meta-gaming you're talking about is helpful. Knowing which character is going to passively spot your bad guy lets you tailor custom scenes to those players and increase immersion far more than usual. My players have immensely enjoyed the added details and subtlety in a scene when I do similarly.

[Secret Bard]

I find that the level of meta-gaming you're talking about is helpful. Knowing which character is going to passively spot your bad guy lets you tailor custom scenes to those players and increase immersion far more than usual. My players have immensely enjoyed the added details and subtlety in a scene when I do similarly.

I'm not sure if I fully understand, could you provide an example of the added detail you would add?

[Thrudd]

So in the past, when my players rolled to see if they noticed a creature lurking in the shadows, I would roll the creature's stealth checks during my dungeon building, I've found this to make the dungeon crawl go a bit smoother. With this new edition; however, I am thinking about adopting the passive perception rule. So my question is, should I still role the stealth checks during the building phase if I am using this rule?

I think the problem I might have with doing this is that I will know before hand who will see the creature and who will not, and that this knowledge might cause me to meta game, which is something I don't like doing.

Roll the monsters' stealth secretly during play. Have the characters' passive perception scores behind the screen so you don't need to ask the players (which will let them all know that there is something to notice). That's the only way surprise can work in this edition.

[pwykersotz]

I'm not sure if I fully understand, could you provide an example of the added detail you would add?

Paladin fails to spot the trap.
Rogue finds the trap.
Rogue fails passive perception to notice enemies over fifty feet away while distracted.
Paladin makes the perception check.

"Vernhad the Paladin, this dungeon is rank with the foul stench of decay. Your right hand rests upon the hilt of your sword as you walk forward, wary of any dangers. Suddenly, Gritch the Rogue darts out in front of you. For a moment you think he's seen something shiny, but now you see that he has instead caught hold of a string that had previously eluded you, and that you had walked right through. Your eyes trace it back, and you see the small crossbow turret mounted up in a corner of the wall. Suddenly, you hear a growl to the side. Gritch is busy keeping the trap at bay, but you know that sound. You whirl and see a Skeleton emerging from a far corridor. Instinctively, a spark of golden light travels from your fingertips to your holy symbol. Roll for Initiative."

It's not a great example, but I hope it will do. See, I'm not great at improv. I'm very methodical in my GM style. Whatever interactions I can 'preload' into my brain makes them that much more seamless. Half that detail would be lost if I were to roll the die spontaneously. You can do more with it, but I'm not feeling that creative right now, I just got off of work. :smalltongue:

[Thrudd]

I am the opposite. I don't want to know what is going to happen, I want the players and the dice to decide that. Knowing beforehand who is going to be surprised and who will notice what for every encounter defeats the whole point of the game.

[Sartharina]

Actually, I'm impressed by this.

I am the opposite. I don't want to know what is going to happen, I want the players and the dice to decide that. Knowing beforehand who is going to be surprised and who will notice what for every encounter defeats the whole point of the game.
The players and dice still decide what is going to happen. The just decide that during the building phase, instead of during the action phase. Only the DM knows who will be surprised or notice what (When the situation arises), and the dice and character sheet still have full effect.

[Thrudd]

Actually, I'm impressed by this.

The players and dice still decide what is going to happen. The just decide that during the building phase, instead of during the action phase. Only the DM knows who will be surprised or notice what (When the situation arises), and the dice and character sheet still have full effect.

I suppose. But it seems less fun when I know ahead of time what will happen, even if the dice determined it.
Maybe have a series of random rolls in a list, and use them in order without knowing before hand what each roll is going to apply to, that might be a compromise. So you don't need to roll during the game to give away that something is going on, if that's what the concern is.

Also, much of the time that surprise is a factor the encounter hasn't been planned at all, it is a random encounter/wandering monster anyway. Even with pre-planned dungeon encounters, there is no way to know how, when and where the party will approach it or even if stealth will be an option for both or either party. How can you roll for this before hand? I feel like there are/should be very few situations where you can know enough about how the situation will unfold that you could make the rolls during prep.

[HunterOfJello]

You can roll during the game or roll beforehand. However, I tried the method of rolling a long series of d20s before a game once and ended up bored out of my mind.

I think it's a good idea to roll during the game purely to give the DM something interesting to do and make it so that they don't already know 100% what will happen in the game. Break the monotony and allow yourself some room to get excited and feel some trepidation from time to time.

Besides, if you know what's going to happen then it's possible for players to read your expression and body language to predict outcomes beforehand. Players shouldn't be doing this, but they could. If the players know that you are rolling and finding out the results at the same time you are, then they won't be in a position to predict future outcomes based on your accidental telegraphing.

[TheOOB]

If the players are going to immediately know the outcome of a perception roll (eg they're checking for sunrise for an ambush), I prefer to have them roll as it increases drama, and can create memorable situations(the fighter with 8 wiz was the only one to spot the orcs!). If it's something they won't notice at all if they fail, I'll roll against their passive perception in secret(did any of the players see that coin pouch change hands between the guardmen and the corrupt noble?).