Dealing with Arrogant Melee-types (Help me annoy the heck out of my PCs!)

[That Lanky Bugger]

The Situation

Currently, I'm running a group every Wednesday night which is working in a campaign world which is decidedly low magic, with a bit of Psionics tossed in for flavor. The only spellcasting classes available are the Bard and a slightly-beefed-up Adept (Spells go to 7th instead of 5th). Now, the party itself consists of a Greatsword-wielding Fighter, a skill-oriented Rogue, a buff-centric Bard, and a TWF Ranger. Right now they're roughly 12th level (the Bard is 11th because he's crafted some items for party use). Now, I'm usually pretty fair in that I don't exploit the weakness they have to a ranged battle TOO much, but the PCs have been getting a little TOO big for their britches. The only one with anything resembling a ranged attack is the Rogue, who does possess a Light Crossbow. However, he has none of the feats to make it a viable weapon for repeated use during combat. The Bard, though he's had the opportunity to take ranged attack-type spells, has chosen to focus on picking up buff-spells and healing spells.

Last session, the party found a Longbow+2 and decided to sell it because they didn't need it. To get this Longbow+2, they spent roughly five or six rounds being shot by the enemy Ranger before they were close enough to actually begin a melee with him. It was my intention to use the Ranger to hurt them enough to expose the fact that they needed a ranged element in their fights... but clearly that wasn't explicit enough for my intrepid band of adventurers. So I've decided that I'm going to check the entire party's movement with a solitary Fighter who is, according to the XP they'll gain by the CR Chart, worth so little of their time they probably shouldn't have bothered with him. I've been toying with the idea of giving him a cohort, but I'm not quite sure at the moment.

The Fighter

Raddeck the Sly, Elf Fighter9
HP: 69 (9d10+9)
AC: 24 (10+5(Dex)+7(Mithral Breastplate)+2(Amulet of Natural Armor+2))
STR 16(+3), DEX 21 (+5), CON 13 (+1), INT 13(+1), WIS 7(-2), CHA 10(+0)
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Weapon Finesse (Spiked Chain), Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Quick Draw
Attack Bonuses: +15/+10 (Spiked Chain), +14/+9 (Darts)
Attack Damage: Spiked Chain of Frost+1 (2d4+6+1d6), for an average of roughly 14 damage per hit. Darts (1d4+3)

The Setup and Raddeck's Tactics

Raddeck is going to be attempting to stop the PCs from entering a temple which contains a minor artifact that they really, really want, while a group of his friends rushes in behind him. The entrance to this temple contains a passageway which is roughly eighty feet long and fifteen feet wide. His tactic here is simple... Stand in the center of the passageway and then take five foot steps back, all the while halting the movement of the PCs before they get to him with Stand Still, then full attacking so he can damage or trip them. If the PCs finally get within range of him, he can simply take a five foot step to withdraw, move another five feet, and then chucking a dart in the face of whoever is annoying him the most.

The highest Reflex Saving throw is the Rogue's at a respectable +11. The Ranger and the Bard are tied at +9, and the Fighter only has a +6. The average saving throw DC against Raddeck's Stand Still attack is going to be around 24... which makes it difficult for the Rogue, VERY difficult for the Ranger and Bard, and all but impossible for the Fighter. I've also been toying with the idea of giving Raddeck three darts with Giant Wasp's Poison, which would allow him to do some nice Dex damage (1d6 Initial, 1d6 Secondary versus DC 18) to three of his foes.

I'm thinking if I give him support, it's going to be a Bard with a Shortbow, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. I haven't worked out anything in particular for that one yet... though I'd probably give the Bard the usual assortment of buffs which will keep Raddeck healthy and increase his Strength and Dexterity, and maybe a Silence spell to impair the party's Bard.

So, does anyone have any thoughts which might make this encounter a little more frustrating (but not lethal) for the PCs? Right now I'm trying to teach my merry band of PCs exactly how frustrating a total lack of viable ranged options can be, so anything which furthers that would be a great help.

Thanks in advance for any feedback, guys!

[Catch]

Instead of a cohort, spread out the ranged annoyance among a bunch of low-level NPC archers. Give 'em enough HP so they can't be dropped by just one shot and put them up on a balcony and you're on the right track to make a very frustrating encounter.

Odds are that your PCs are going to target your chain-fighter (especially when he starts tripping them like crazy), so the archers will whittle them down until they finally realize the implications.

"Ow! Gee, these arrows hurt. Maybe we should find a way to stop being shot."

By putting the NPC archers out of reach, you're forcing the PCs to find an alternative way to handle them, rather than just charging in and slashing everything to death.

[Behold_the_Void]

Mithral Breastplate won't stack with Bracers of Armor for his AC.

[Bobbis]

If you're going for non-lethality, switch the +1 frost to a +1 merciful; they take 2d4+2d6+6 nonlethal damage instead of the extra frost. I don't know Raddeck's alignment, but he might not be trying to kill them, just keep them out of the temple.

[Attilargh]

In Tome of Battle there is the feat Evasive Reflexes, which lets a character take a five-foot step instead of an AoO. Might not be as useful as Stand Still, but should be nice to use against the last one to approach.

I personally toyed with the idea of a Psychic Warrior that used Spring Attack in conjunction with Up the Walls to strike from rooftops. Hilarity should ensue as the players try to find the nearest staircases, ladders or piles of crates to get the annoying bugger. (And then you can introduce them to the hazards of carrying lots of heavy stuff like weapons and armour up a shoddy staircase.)

[Orzel]

The Bracers don't stack with Armor

Give the Bard poisoned arrows with Con Damage....
or switch the bard with a handfull of Grigs or a couple of Pixie

[That Lanky Bugger]

Good catch, BtV. Switched out for an Amulet of Natural Armor+2.

I'm not explicitly trying to kill them, but I'm not entirely opposed to it either. Raddeck doesn't really care either way, but he's not entirely up for the idea of random murder. He's probably CN, if it's important.

[Fronko]

Have you actually ever TALKED to them about this? Maybe dropping a hint here and there, that a ranged attack would be REAL HANDY now.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Yep. I've told them flat out a couple times. I've tried to demonstrate it by being a bit subtle about it (the aforementioned Ranger). I've even handed them everything they needed to fight a ranged battle (the Longbow+2). They refuse to adapt, so I'm now focused on showing them precisely why this is a terrible idea.

[Maxymiuk]

I'll second Catch's suggestion to put several level 3-4 archers up on balconies overlooking the corridor. Unless your ranger has Wind Wall prepared, this might even force them to withdraw.

Unless they have delusions of immortality. :smallamused:

[Attilargh]

A party with a Bard has no delusions of immortality. If the Bard is doing his job, their tale should already be sung in at least three different cities. :wink:

Nonetheless, Catch's idea is a good (and aesthetically pleasing (http://drmcninja.com/page.php?pageNum=33&issue=5)) one.

[ExHunterEmerald]

If this doesn't work, there's always the "That was cool" moment effect...
Maybe they're after a fleeing target and a sniper puts him down. You're just killing off this guy, but make it look like you're rolling damage like normal. Make a roll, look at it, pick up four or five more dice, mutter, "Holy crap..." and then give a gory explanation of how the shot takes down the target.

[That Lanky Bugger]

I like the archers on balconies idea. A few Level 3 Fighters with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot will make things really annoying. Maybe (even better), load them with miscellaneous items like Tanglefoot bags or Thunderstones? Anything which will prove annoying and further hamper the party's ability.

Maybe even have the Bard create the illusion of a portcullis at the end of the hallway and have the "portcullis" slam shut just as Raddeck retreats through it? *evil grin*

[Inyssius Tor]

Now, don't get carried away! :smallsmile: You need to make it very clear to your players that ranged weapons are really cool and necessary. Adding in Tanglefoot Bags will just make them hate Tanglefoot Bags; the same goes for illusions. Make it clear that the enemies are winning only because the enemies are archers.

[nivek1234]

I like those ideas as well. If things continue to persist as they are, have them face a flying creature with fly-by attack and a 10ft. reach. That way only ranged weapons are able to hit him.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Make it clear that the enemies are winning only because the enemies are archers.

True... Though I might want to bring Raddeck back, if he annoys the PCs enough. Zone control fighters like him can make great antagonists.

[Nevermore]

You could try a flying NPC w/ a ranged asttack to simply rain punishment upon them until they run for cover. Harpies or giant eagles dropping rocks, A HD bonused manticor that flings spines, then uses Awesome Blow + Combat Reflexes to nock opponents out of Melee, AoO w/ multi attack, rinse, repeat.etc etc

[Artanis]

Floating Disk hovers over the terrain regardless of how bad it is around that spot. So have a Warmage stand on a Floating Disk in some nigh-unreachable location (such as above the point of a fifteen foot tall spike) and pelt the party with spells. That'll give the party the choice between getting blasted while trying to get to an impossible location, shooting at him, or running away. Give the Warmage Point Blank Shot and 16-18 INT for some extra emphasis.

[Attilargh]

You could do the encounter in parts. First, have them clobber some mooks outside to get warmed up. Then, enter Raddeck in the passageway. When the players finally clobber him for a while, he drops a Tanglefoot Bag and retreats down a corridor. Now lead the PCs on a game of cat and mouse for 2d4 rounds - carefully keeping Raddeck just out of charge range, possibly with traps or areas of difficult ground - and then lead them to a big hall or courtyard with some (empty) balconies. Give Raddeck a smug moment and have him call forth the archers before walking away. Make sure there is cover, but keep it small and place it sparse enough for the archers to get unobstructed shots now and then as the characters head for the stairs for some long-awaited melee. If they've done well, have them encounter some big, burly smasher to keep everyone happy.

[Fawsto]

you can also get some archers with that feat that allows them to disarm eneies at range. But the best way to show them that they need long range attacks is getting a bunch of archers at the top of a tower sending a shower of arrows... Simple a easy.

[Orzel]

I still think 4 grigs or a pixie is enough of a warning. Raddeck whistles, they appear, they fly up, put the rogue to sleep, shoot the rest for a bit of damage, and your guys learn to bring a bow withot dying

[headwarpage]

Keep it simple. Raddeck and a few low-level archers should be plenty. While there are many, many ways to exploit a party with no ranged attacks and minimal spellcasting capability, the idea is to make it painfully obvious that this would be a cakewalk if they had a few longbows, or if the bard had some ranged offensive spells, either on his own or through wands/scrolls. To that end, you don't want to target any of their other weaknesses - just their lack of ranged ability. Ideally, this battle would drag on for a while, with the PCs taking minimal damage (which highlights the fact that they're much more powerful than their opponents), but not really making much progress either. Eventually, they'll either win their way through with great difficulty or be forced to retreat.

And if this doesn't work, maybe they just don't want to play a game in which ranged combat plays a role. It's supposed to be fun, and it's entirely possible that their idea of fun doesn't include longbows. You might just need to work around it, just like you'd work around the weaknesses of a group that didn't include a spellcaster.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Eh... I usually try to focus on melee combat like they like me to, but I'm not about to entirely excise ranged combat from our sessions just yet. I'm just trying to convince them to carry the tools for a ranged battle, just in case. I'd be entirely happy with them if they had a couple of longbows and a few quivers of arrows in the Handy Haversack, but they flat out refuse because they've developed this group mentality that ranged combat is weak.

It's not a case of them preferring one to the other, it's a case of them thinking one is weak and one is strong... Which is totally not the case.

[elliott20]

hehe, Raddeck sounds like cheese, but a good one.

You definitely should try to save him for later use.

[That Lanky Bugger]

elliot: Raddeck is total cheese. It takes a DC 24(ish) Reflex Save just to get close enough to take a swing at him. Even if you manage it, he's going to take a couple steps back and start it all over again. He's completely primed to fight melee-types.

[Fax Celestis]

You could use a raycaster too. Warmage 5/Spellwarp Sniper 3 or Warlock 8, sitting behind Raddeck and sniping away.

I'd personally put a raycaster on a balcony on one side and an archer on a balcony on the other side, mostly for harrying purposes.

[Dausuul]

The Situation

Currently, I'm running a group every Wednesday night which is working in a campaign world which is decidedly low magic, with a bit of Psionics tossed in for flavor. The only spellcasting classes available are the Bard and a slightly-beefed-up Adept (Spells go to 7th instead of 5th). Now, the party itself consists of a Greatsword-wielding Fighter, a skill-oriented Rogue, a buff-centric Bard, and a TWF Ranger. Right now they're roughly 12th level (the Bard is 11th because he's crafted some items for party use). Now, I'm usually pretty fair in that I don't exploit the weakness they have to a ranged battle TOO much, but the PCs have been getting a little TOO big for their britches. The only one with anything resembling a ranged attack is the Rogue, who does possess a Light Crossbow. However, he has none of the feats to make it a viable weapon for repeated use during combat. The Bard, though he's had the opportunity to take ranged attack-type spells, has chosen to focus on picking up buff-spells and healing spells.

Last session, the party found a Longbow+2 and decided to sell it because they didn't need it. To get this Longbow+2, they spent roughly five or six rounds being shot by the enemy Ranger before they were close enough to actually begin a melee with him. It was my intention to use the Ranger to hurt them enough to expose the fact that they needed a ranged element in their fights... but clearly that wasn't explicit enough for my intrepid band of adventurers.

Just wondering... what exactly do they do when they run into a dragon? A party with no ranged capability is crunch on a stick for even a young dragon. Fly in, breathe from thirty feet up, fly away again, recharge breath weapon, repeat.

[Roderick_BR]

I don't see a reason not to hand their asses to them with a ranged fight. Give Raddeck Leadership, and a few level warriors with long bows and studded leather. Every 2 or 3 archer can have a warrior with a tower shield and a short sword to protect them. Use the high ground to their advantage. Get a bard as his cohort just to buff him with defense spells.
Thing is, when they start getting hit, they'll want to fight back, and just remind them "remember all those ranged weapons?" and have fun with their reactions. Just make it sure that you WAS setting up a ranged fight, and you gave them the tools to win, but they threw it out.
Bags of entanglement, flash stones, and caltrops are good to keep them from pursuing the archers.
Remember, don't make a metagame strong build, instead, use battle tactics in-games. No archer with low defense would want to stay near a warrior with superior melee equipment.

Elf Archers:
Warrior 2, HD 2d8+2 (14),
Attack: Long Bow +9 (Base +2, Dex +3, Feats +2, MasterWork Bow+1, MasterWork Arrows +1) (+7/+7 with Rapid Shot). Damage 1d8+2 (+1 Str (Mighty), +1 Feat); or Short sword +3 (Base +2, Str +1)
AC: 16 (Dex +3, Studded Leather +3)
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Rapid Shot

Elf Shield Carriers:
Warrior 2, HD 2d8+5 (17) (Thoughness)
Attack: Short sword +3 (Base +2, Str +2, MasterWork +1, -2 from tower shield)
AC: 21 (Dex +2, Chainmail +5, Tower +4)
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Thoughness, Power Attack, Bull Rush

Notice that both kinds are not very though. One hit from the two-hander fighter will kill any of the elves.
Now, as I said, the archers will stay out of range. Maybe in a place that the players can climb, if they had the time to. If they try to get too close, the archers will fire away. If they try to climb, let the elves hit their hands and push them down.
If they manage to climb, put the shield carriers in front, in total defense mode (AC +10 instead of +4 from the shield, plus +2 for a -4 on attack. Their AC will go to 29. When they get too close, try to attack with the shield carriers and bull rush them back down (plus fall damage). The attack will be extremely bad (with a -14, they'll have a attack of -9), but it costs nothing to try.

Don't forget, from an higher groond, the elves gets a -2 to attacks too. And If Raddek's cohort is a bard, he can use a few buffs on the group. For a real cheese, make Raddek's a level 10, and the cohort a level 9 bard, and let him inspire greatness (or whatever the name is) to give +2d10 hit points and +2 to everyone's attacks!

Yeah, I got a bit carried away :3

[elliott20]

I would be hesitant to make the encounter this deadly. remember, this is supposed to be a lesson about their shortcomings, not an all out TPK.

I also would try to make sure the party has some kind of recourse when things DO go badly for them.

[headwarpage]

Eh... I usually try to focus on melee combat like they like me to, but I'm not about to entirely excise ranged combat from our sessions just yet. I'm just trying to convince them to carry the tools for a ranged battle, just in case. I'd be entirely happy with them if they had a couple of longbows and a few quivers of arrows in the Handy Haversack, but they flat out refuse because they've developed this group mentality that ranged combat is weak.

It's not a case of them preferring one to the other, it's a case of them thinking one is weak and one is strong... Which is totally not the case.

Well, in that case, go to it. If you can get a low-level NPC (like a level 3-4 ranger as a guide, or something) to follow them around for some reason, it would be amusing to have him pull out a bow in this situation and be more effective than the PCs. There's nothing better than being demoted to buffing/protecting your henchman while he wins your battle for you.

[its_all_ogre]

nah a low CR dragon(preferably blue for range of breath weapon) should do the trick. they have no way to force this beastie to melee and it has no reason to want to! they will have to flee.
then they can tool up and do him later.
failing that make the npc a psy-warrior archer with the psionic shot feat for an extra 2d6 damage, this means he has a need to move around(to regain his psi-focus) and therefore you make it into a guerilla warfare type encounter.

[Lapak]

I'd hesitate to use Raddek at all. The lesson they learn might not be that 'missle fire is deadly if we have no response' but instead 'battlefield control through melee is deadly' and assume that the archers would be easy prey if they didn't have the big bad melee dude to protect them.

Use terrain rather than a person. Take a book from historical castles and create a killing ground in that passage of yours by obstructing the entrance; let the archers drop a pile of rubble in front of the entrance on either end and then rake the party with arrows from windows above the door. If the archers are only moderate-level, it will teach them a lesson without killing them: with no significant way to return fire there's no way for them to get through the obstacle.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Their recourse is going to be pretty simple, really... They can kick back and let the Rogue plink away at Raddeck with his crossbow. If they get inventive, bullrushing one of the melee-types (the Two-Handed Fighter or TWF Ranger) into range. He's gonna get smacked, but Stand Still won't effect someone who's being bullrushed... and if they time it right, the melee-type could get a Full Attack on Raddeck. If they do that with both a melee-type and the Rogue, the Rogue will be flanking Raddeck and can get off some Sneak Attack damage.

They can try to climb up to the Archers on the balconies. The bard can use his summoning spells to summon something on a balcony, or behind Raddeck to get at the Bard. If Raddeck gets attacked from both sides (again, because of the bard summoning something) the party can swarm him under by overcoming his Combat Reflexes-granted AoOs.

There are options... but they're all desperate and require more effort than if they'd had a ranged weapon.

Edit: And unfortunately, Dragons and Manticores aren't really an option. Neither actually exist in the campaign world. Likewise ray-casters aren't too common, as only Adepts and Bards can cast spells.

[Dark]

I doubt that a single specially-designed encounter will help. They'll just figure the encounter was too difficult, instead of figuring how much easier it would have been with ranged attacks.

I'd propose this instead:

Design a vulture-like monster that hunts in packs. These vultures look for creatures that don't have ranged attacks, and then drop rocks on them. Rocks fall, creatures die, vultures eat. The rocks don't have to do much damage -- 1d6 or 2d6 should be enough. Vultures are patient.

These vultures know that the best time to attack is when their targets are already distracted by another fight. Nondistracted targets might get creative and improvise some counterattacks. Besides, flying around all the time makes you tired. Getting tired is not part of the vulture lifestyle.

The result, from the party's point of view, is that these birds will be dropping rocks on them every encounter, and then flying away once the encounter is done, and they can't do anything about it without ranged attacks.

If one of the vultures is killed, the whole flock flies away and looks for easier targets.

[1337_master]

Give the fighter-archers mounted archery, and put them on rust monsters. Along with a handful of rust monsters without men on them.just to take care of the melee peoples equipment, making them easier to attack.

Plus, a few Harpy archers couldn't hurt.:smallbiggrin:

[Dausuul]

Give the fighter-archers mounted archery, and put them on rust monsters. Along with a handful of rust monsters without men on them.just to take care of the melee peoples equipment, making them easier to attack.

Plus, a few Harpy archers couldn't hurt.:smallbiggrin:



The rust monsters are actually non-helpful here--too slow. Just put the archers on light warhorses and stage the fight in open terrain. Every round, the horse archers can gallop 240 feet and shoot in the middle of it. They just circle and circle at a distance, never coming close enough for the PCs to charge, peppering them with arrows. Each round, pick a straight line that takes the archers just within one range increment of the PCs at the midpoint; the archers fire at that midpoint and keep going.

Ah, the joys of being able to take a run action and full attack simultaneously...

[Fax Celestis]

Rocks fall, creatures die, vultures eat.

ROCKS FALL! EVERYONE DIES!

Except for the vultures and cockroaches, who are feasting.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Mounted archers is going to be the NEXT challenge if they don't get the clue this time. Specifically, bandits chasing after the minor artifact they'll probably be getting their hands on next session.

[1337_master]

What about DROPPING rust monsters? something to do with rust monsters at least.

[LotharBot]

Nitpick:


he can simply take a five foot step to withdraw, move another five feet

If you take a 5 foot step, you can't move any other distance within the same round.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Nitpick:



If you take a 5 foot step, you can't move any other distance within the same round.

Whoops, you're right... Sorry. He simply has to withdraw 10 feet. Eargh. Lanky needs sleep.

[Quietus]

I think that the idea of dropping Raddeck is a good one, and then just put them in a room inside the temple with a balcony. 30' wide circular room, the switch they need to throw to open the portcullis to the next area is on the balcony, and there's no visible way to get up there - they'd have to climb, but as long as they're being shot at, that isn't possible. Put eight level 3-4 fighters up there with bows, and you'll frustrate the PCs without putting them into a situation that's clearly deadly. Or at least, wouldn't be if they had ranged attacks. Then the aim of the room isnt necessarily to kill the archers (though the PCs will want to), but rather, to get to that switch. The archers are just there to harry them and point out how helpful ranged attacks would be right about now.

[mystikphish]

Lanky, don't take offense, but has it occured to you that perhaps *YOU* are no good at employing ranged weapons and that's why your players dismiss them so? No offense meant here but, your initial encounter with the single ranger was kind of a pathetic use of ranged attacks.

I assume what you ideally want is for the PCs to be unsuccessful in bypassing this trap (that's what it really is), and go back to town and buy some dang bows, etc. If you really want to teach them about ranged weapons without making up some boogedy-boo impossible to kill character all you need to do is follow some of the advice already in this thread. I'll boil down to the 3 points that the USMC teaches: terrain, interlocking fields of fire, mutually supportive firing positions.

Roderick suggests some good low-level archer/fighter groups. Quietus and Lapak suggest some good terrain and positioning. That's really all you need to frustrate the hell out of your players.

Terrain: Design the terrain so the PCs are forced to approach a defended position along the most disadvantageous path. Your tunnel idea works , but the suggestion to look at some old castles should make obvious other possibilities. e.g. (a wall on one side, a chasm/cliff on the other)

Interlocking Fields of Fire: Always have at least two separate groups. Each group should cover a "primary" area/entry/path, but they should also be able to cover one of the other groups primary "lanes". No matter which way the PCs come in, they get hit from two separate directions. Also, if you have a primary "kill zone", as many groups as possible should be able to fire into it.

Mutually Supportive Positions: Ideally each group of ranged weapons can fire into each others position, and especially can fire into any 'lane' that approaches one of their buddy's positions.

Quietus suggestion (30' circular room) does a good job of meeting each of these requirements. I'd put two balconies on opposite sides, 30' of the floor. Make it difficult but not impossible for the rogue to climb up to, you want him try at least once and get shot off the wall. It should take him about 3 rounds to get up there, giving you plenty of time to fill him arrows.

Also, remember that your balconies are providing cover and concealment to your archers (+4 AC, and then 20% miss)! If you're a real bastard, make them "murder holes" instead! (+4AC for cover, +4AC for a diminutive target, 50% miss for total concealment)

If someone tries a grappling hook, let them hook it and then have the archers cut the rope with a knife after the PCs start climbing it.

If your group really has such a limited ranged effectiveness you should be able to really get them with this simple scenario. And the best part is that if they come up with some way onto the balcony you didn't expect, you can easily increase the difficulty by shouting for more "Guards! Guards!" etc. or having them reach a balcony only to find a barred door (which the other balcony can of course shoot into, mutually supportive *grin*). This gives you flexibility too, if the PCs have "learned their lesson", but make it onto a balcony, then give them their cookie. ;-)

Also, your idea of having the one BadAss fight them is only going to work unless they manage to creatively clobber him on the first round or two...

[That Lanky Bugger]

Who said anything about the Ranger I mentioned being ineffective? He quite handily put large numbers of holes in the players and would have finished them off if he'd had a couple friends handy. The problem with the encounter was that the PCs grasped exactly the wrong message from it: They won against a reasonably difficult foe in spite of the disparity in their attack ranges, so they figured they didn't need a ranged attack at all. The problem was not at all that he was ineffective (indeed, the Rogue and the Bard were both down to single digit HP before they finished him off).

And it's not a matter of trying to use ranged fights effectively against my PCs... I just don't want to use them TOO effectively. If I'm too effective, I'll place their characters in a situation they don't wish to be in... What with being dead and all.

I've already got other encounters planned which will challenge my PCs. The specific intent of this encounter with Raddeck is to frustrate the PCs, but without putting them in any real danger. It's supposed to violently underscore the fact that this guy would be a total chump they could steamroll right over if only they were a little better prepared. The entire point of him is NOT that he would be a reasonable challenge with ranged weapons (and a very difficult one without ranged weapons).

The balconies suggestion in a mutually supported room strikes me as a little excessive, particularly because it gives the PCs nowhere to hide and all they can really do is flee. I want to frustrate my PCs but give them a reason to push on AND a line of retreat should the encounter prove more difficult for them than I expect. I could, of course, run them off until they get the weapons they need to fight back... but our session is only going to be four hours long and I don't really feel like wasting time by presenting them with an impossible challenge.

Thanks for the suggestions, though.

[Ashes]

I don't get it. Why force them to use ranged weapons if they don't want to? It's like taking a guy who likes playing a fighter and saying "You will be playing a wizard for this campaign. And that's final!" Let them do what they think is fun, and don't try to force them to do something they don't have an interest in.

Cause, y'know, this is a game. A thing that's meant to be, y'know, fun.

[Jorkens]

The balconies suggestion in a mutually supported room strikes me as a little excessive, particularly because it gives the PCs nowhere to hide and all they can really do is flee.
A weakened version of it might work though - giving the archers an adequate terrain advantage that it's going to be possible to get up there and hit them with swords, but it'll still be a royal PITA and the players will get shot at quite a lot trying to do it. It emphasises the point that what's going wrong is purely the lack of a ranged option for dealing with the problem.

[Foeofthelance]

In order to prevent the TPK, simply alter the ammo load outs. Instead of regular arrows have the archers carry poisoned arrows, DC 20 fort save or unconcious for eight hours. Make it a capture scenario instead of a murderous one.

[Everyman]

I don't get it. Why force them to use ranged weapons if they don't want to? It's like taking a guy who likes playing a fighter and saying "You will be playing a wizard for this campaign. And that's final!" Let them do what they think is fun, and don't try to force them to do something they don't have an interest in.

Cause, y'know, this is a game. A thing that's meant to be, y'know, fun.

I think the point is that the group seems to totally neglect ranged combat, not that they don't use it. I mean, a paladin could use a longbow, but won't unless forced to (his potential is best in melee). However, this party seems to ignore ranged completely.

I think a few archers with elevation should be more than enough of an advantage. I'd just group together two or three rangers around level 7 and give them some elevation. Not only would this hammer the necessity to have some ranged options into their brains, but makes for a difficult encounter.

NOTE: Remember that the high ground grants an advantage in D&D (+1 to hit, I believe). Know the rules if you use elevation.

[Ping_T._Squirrel]

Why prevent a TPK?

I say an iron door, with an area fighting area with archers. Then again, I made it clear in my campaign that you can die if you do something stupid, like charge a gaurded temple without proper provisions.

[mystikphish]

Who said anything about the Ranger I mentioned being ineffective? ... They won against a reasonably difficult foe in spite of the disparity in their attack ranges, so they figured they didn't need a ranged attack at all.

Unfortunately, "range" does not a weapon make. And by making a single, specialized, "ranged attack" opponent, they focused on HIM, not the attack method. That's why I and others have suggested using a group of "scrubs". Instead of one guy blasting them with uber-arrows, they get pelted with low-powered missiles and learn the PCs are not nigh-invulnerable.

For example, if you have 4 archers (Elf Rgr2, as above) with Atk+9, and lets say they all target the Ftr12 tank (assume AC25, 80hp). The archers together will dish out an total damage per turn of ~5HP, if they focus fire on him. So if you place them out of reach, your PC has plenty of time to "learn his lesson" before he's in danger of dying. Anyone unarmored is in trouble, and should be hiding behind the Fighter types. Also, by making it relatively difficult to get up to the archers you will force the PCs to do something creative or at least heroic. e.g. the rogue "climbing-the-gauntlet" as it where...


And it's not a matter of trying to use ranged fights effectively against my PCs... I just don't want to use them TOO effectively. If I'm too effective, I'll place their characters in a situation they don't wish to be in... What with being dead and all.

That's why it's been suggested you try using a larger number of less powerful opponents, that allows you to more easily fine-tune the encounter on-the-fly. e.g. PCs getting hammered? The next couple shots the archers receive kill a couple of them. PCs winning to easily? Reinforcements arrive, maybe more scrubs or the "Captain/Sergeant of the Guard" for flavor.


The specific intent of this encounter with Raddeck is to frustrate the PCs, but without putting them in any real danger.

I would respectfully suggest that by trying to beat the PCs at their own game, you're more likely to teach them that chains are cool, and maybe the fighter guy will want one too.... :smallwink: But you also run the risk of one or two lucky rolls allowing a PC close enough to undo your entire plan.


The balconies suggestion in a mutually supported room strikes me as a little excessive, particularly because it gives the PCs nowhere to hide and all they can really do is flee. I want to frustrate my PCs but give them a reason to push on AND a line of retreat should the encounter prove more difficult for them than I expect.

No one is suggesting two balconies full of Ranger10 archers... Trust me they will learn the lesson more effectively when you are rolling where the players can see the dice and you're only tagging them with 15's and above, but you're rolling enough dice to make it scary. I've used nearly this same lesson before to teach PCs respect for the lowly kobold. :biggrin:

The amount of damage the archers can dish out ought to be enough that the PCs can't ignore it, but not so much that they're spraying blood everywhere.

I guess it also comes down to GMing style. I was (am?) a strategy/tactical bookshelf game player for a long time, so I always prefer to have hordes to throw at the PCs and keep my "bad guy" NPCs for the big battle at the end of an adventure.

[Ashes]

I think the point is that the group seems to totally neglect ranged combat, not that they don't use it. I mean, a paladin could use a longbow, but won't unless forced to (his potential is best in melee). However, this party seems to ignore ranged completely.




So? If ranged combat is not what interests them (which it obviously doesn't), then why force them do exactly that? If they honestly think it isn't interesting, making them play in a situation they dont like, is just plain being a bastard. If my players expressed several times they don't like low-action investigative games, I would be a **** for forcing them into it.

[Dervag]

Who said anything about the Ranger I mentioned being ineffective? He quite handily put large numbers of holes in the players and would have finished them off if he'd had a couple friends handy. The problem with the encounter was that the PCs grasped exactly the wrong message from it: They won against a reasonably difficult foe in spite of the disparity in their attack ranges, so they figured they didn't need a ranged attack at all. The problem was not at all that he was ineffective (indeed, the Rogue and the Bard were both down to single digit HP before they finished him off).He should have focused his attacks more. Dropping one or two guys to negative HP before the battle even begins should convince them something's wrong.

Also, hit and run is good. If the party closes with the ranged attacker and kills him, they learn the wrong lesson. They end up with the idea that "the magnetism of the charge" and "cold steel" are better than ranged firepower. You're on the right track here; ambushes and horse archers are the two main categories where ranged attackers excel.


I've already got other encounters planned which will challenge my PCs. The specific intent of this encounter with Raddeck is to frustrate the PCs, but without putting them in any real danger. It's supposed to violently underscore the fact that this guy would be a total chump they could steamroll right over if only they were a little better prepared. The entire point of him is NOT that he would be a reasonable challenge with ranged weapons (and a very difficult one without ranged weapons).That makes a lot of sense. Try commenting on it during the battle:
"Wow. I was not expecting that guy to be a serious threat."


The balconies suggestion in a mutually supported room strikes me as a little excessive, particularly because it gives the PCs nowhere to hide and all they can really do is flee. I want to frustrate my PCs but give them a reason to push on AND a line of retreat should the encounter prove more difficult for them than I expect. I could, of course, run them off until they get the weapons they need to fight back... but our session is only going to be four hours long and I don't really feel like wasting time by presenting them with an impossible challenge.
Thanks for the suggestions, though.Chasing them off until they can find the right weapon isn't that bad. For example, they pass a big basket of nonmagical spears in the entryway to the temple. The spears aren't valuable treasure, so they won't pick it up. Then they hit the archer ambush. They can't get through without driving off the archers. They pull back, go into a huddle. Encourage somebody to think of going back and bringing up all those javelins they found at the front entrance.

Problem solved.


I don't get it. Why force them to use ranged weapons if they don't want to? It's like taking a guy who likes playing a fighter and saying "You will be playing a wizard for this campaign. And that's final!" Let them do what they think is fun, and don't try to force them to do something they don't have an interest in.

Cause, y'know, this is a game. A thing that's meant to be, y'know, fun.Yes, but the DM isn't having fun here, and the players are being idiots. The problem isn't that they aren't interested in ranged combat. It's that they are under the delusion that it doesn't work. So to accomodate that, the DM has to cripple his own tactics to make sure that the threat can always be resolved in melee.

[Roderick_BR]

Just for kicks, I did a small map for an archer ambush:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/ExRPG/rpg/map1.gif
It's something simple. The blue dot is the strong npc, the red ones are archers, and the white dots are the PCs.
Now, the gray area is the normal ground they came in, the blue is an elevation to the higher place, the green area. In order to climb, they need to make a simple climb roll (DC 15, 10 with tools). Thing is, they need to spend 1 round to do it, and the archers can just push them down. The dark grey dots are warriors with power attack and bullrush. The little elevation near the bottom can be used by the players to get cover from most of the archers.
The strong npc should have high mobility and a good defense. That way he can maneuver the PCs where the archers can hit them.
And lastly, a spellcaster (orange dot)(preferable a bard) that can buff the archers, and protect them from a few spells.
The objective here is the following:
1. The strong npc is not hurting them. The archers are.
2. The archers are strategically in a hard-to-reach, good attacking spot.
3. A simple bow/throwing weapons would take them out quickly, seeing as they don't have high AC's, nor many hit points. They will just flee if they get hurt.
4. Each archer alone won't do much damage (1d8+2) but with 8 archers attacking with a +9 bonus (Base +2, Dex +3, Point Blank Shot +1, Weapon Focus +1, MasterWork Bows +1 elevated position +1), they are likely to make quick work of the PCs, but the PCs can easily run away.

The idea is not to force the players to do something they don't want to, just to show them that ranged warfare is a possibility, and that they should be prepared.
In my games, my characters always carry with them a main weapon plus a minor ranged weapon, so they don't get helpless if they can't reach the enemies.

I like Dervag's idea of leaving some javelins nearby. A subtle hint, and elegant way of helping the players. They don't even need to kill the archers. Once they find out they don't have the upper hand anymore, they'll flee. Grant the players the full XP for the whole encounter as normal, since they'll have the archers defeated, even without killing them.

[Lapak]

Who said anything about the Ranger I mentioned being ineffective? He quite handily put large numbers of holes in the players and would have finished them off if he'd had a couple friends handy. The problem with the encounter was that the PCs grasped exactly the wrong message from it: They won against a reasonably difficult foe in spite of the disparity in their attack ranges, so they figured they didn't need a ranged attack at all. The problem was not at all that he was ineffective (indeed, the Rogue and the Bard were both down to single digit HP before they finished him off).
This is exactly the message that I predicted that they would learn from this encounter, in my post above. He wasn't an ineffective combatant; he was an ineffective teaching tool. You used a melee character to try to show them the effectiveness of missle fire.

And yes, if you want them to start using missles? You are going to have to place them in a situation where they are at significant risk without them, not just suffering irritation. Irritation will only frustrate them. This is why I suggested what I did at first - not a trap-room, simply a defended position that the PCs want to go through. If they have to get through a mountain pass that is blocked by a gate defended by archers, they should find that either they get their noses bloodied to no purpose while trying to find a way to apply melee tactics or they employ ranged attacks.

Now, in the case above - they want to pass through, and are blocked, but not trapped - they can and should retreat when they realize they're not equipped for the situation. As long as they're not under immediate time pressure, they should be willing to do so. And if they're not, and they keep on trying to climb the wall until they get nickled-and-dimed to death by archers 6 levels lower than they are?

Well, then the TPK at that point was earned.

[Ashes]

Yes, but the DM isn't having fun here, and the players are being idiots. The problem isn't that they aren't interested in ranged combat. It's that they are under the delusion that it doesn't work. So to accomodate that, the DM has to cripple his own tactics to make sure that the threat can always be resolved in melee.

That's not the impression I got from the topic. It just seemed the DM in question was annoyed cause the players didn't run their characters like he would have run them. And that's why I'm more than a little opposed to this whole thing.

[Quietus]

The problem here, of course, is that by including Raddeck, your players WON'T learn that ranged is effective. They'll learn that "Holy crap, that spiked chain guy was a pain, if it wasn't for him we'd deal with the archers quickly!".

I like the javelins idea. Have them raid a barracks off a side room on the way to this one - Make it 2-3 rooms before that. Include a number of standard weapons; Bows, javelins, longspears, longswords. If they go in there BEFORE meeting the ambush, they'll probably pass over the weaponry, since what they have is likely to be better. Once they go into the ambush, they might think otherwise.

If they go into the ambush, then back away, and explore "that side room they didn't go to earlier", then they'll find a number of ranged weapons. If your PCs have any smarts at all, that'll throw the switch.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Well, I'll be starting the session at 5 and I get off work in twenty minutes. I've decided to pair Raddeck with a Level 8 Bard named Gireon (stats below). Gireon's pretty much focused on archery, so he should provide the solution I need for the PCs to be swarmed with arrows. I imagine the PCs will take about six or seven rounds to take them down. The Fighter and the Ranger have pretty high Strength scores, and deal a fair amount of damage. The Bard has the Shout spell, so that could dish out the pain if he thinks to use it.

I should be done with the session at around 9 or so... so I'll post an update on what happened at around that time.

Gireon Manyhands, Human Bard8
HP: 39 (8d6+8)
AC: 19 (+3 Dex, Chain Shirt+1)
STR 9(-1), DEX 17(+3), CON 12(+1), INT 9(-1), WIS 11(+0), CHA 19(+4)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Shortbow, Rapid Shot
Attack Bonuses: Shortbow +11/+6 (+9/+9/+4 (Rapidshot)) or +5/+0 (Longsword)
Attack Damage: 1d6+1 (Shortbow+1) or 1d8 (Masterwork Longsword)
Spells Known: 0th - Daze, Light, Mending, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Summon Instrument; 1st - Cure Light Wounds, Grease, Charm Person, Silent Image; 2nd - Alter Self, Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Minor Image; 3rd - Cure Serious Wounds, Haste
Spells per Day: Cantrips-4, 1st-4, 2nd-4, 3rd-2

[Fax Celestis]

That's not the impression I got from the topic. It just seemed the DM in question was annoyed cause the players didn't run their characters like he would have run them. And that's why I'm more than a little opposed to this whole thing.

And what exactly are you going to do? Picket outside his game? :smallconfused: If you don't like his methods, leave him alone. I personally think they'll be effective.

[Ashes]

And what exactly are you going to do? Picket outside his game? :smallconfused: If you don't like his methods, leave him alone. I personally think they'll be effective.

Hey... No need to get hostile (as, I admit, I kinda was as well) I don't agree with his methods or his motivations, and that was why I said what I said. I still stand by what I said, but if it causes all of you so much grief, then by all means, I'll stop. Sheesh.

[Matthew]

I don't know, Ashes, it seems to me he is just out to teach them a lesson about D&D [i.e. Specialisation isn't necessarily the way to go]. Not to mention, that the encounter is going to be a challenge, which is the intention.

[Fax Celestis]

Hey... No need to get hostile (as, I admit, I kinda was as well) I don't agree with his methods or his motivations, and that was why I said what I said. I still stand by what I said, but if it causes all of you so much grief, then by all means, I'll stop. Sheesh.

No, I'm sorry too. Came out harsher than I wanted.

[Ashes]

It's okay Fax. Internet communication is tricky (Which we should both know by now :smallsmile: )

On a related issue, I can sorta understand them. Being effective with ranged weapons is hard and requires a focused build, in my experience. If you are fully loaded on front-line combat or Item Creation (in the case of the bard) then, finding the desire to shoot arrows that'll probably miss by a mile, is hard.
The only effective, enjoyable and non-meh (which I kinda think the cleric-archer is, because a Cleric is good at everything) archer I ever played, was the Iron Heroes Archer. Damn, that class rocks.

And from this post, I have learned two things. I use too many parantheses and I have a very hard time staying on topic.

To Lankybugger: Turn 'em into pincushions :smallwink:

What's a nested paranthesis?

[Fax Celestis]

It's okay Fax. Internet communication is tricky (Which we should both know by now :smallsmile: )

On a related issue, I can sorta understand them. Being effective with ranged weapons is hard and requires a focused build, in my experience. If you are fully loaded on front-line combat or Item Creation (in the case of the bard) then, finding the desire to shoot arrows that'll probably miss by a mile, is hard.
The only effective, enjoyable and non-meh (which I kinda think the cleric-archer is, because a Cleric is good at everything) archer I ever played, was the Iron Heroes Archer. Damn, that class rocks.

And from this post, I have learned two things. I use too many paranthesises and I have a very hard time staying on topic.

To Lankybugger: Turn 'em into pincushions :smallwink:

Hey, at least your parentheses aren't nested.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Alright, I'm back. Uh, the short story is that Raddeck and Gireon managed to turn what should have been a minor challenge into a technical (but not actual ) TPK. The long story will be posted in the topic shortly.

The Session

Alright, so I went into the session tonight with a plan in mind. As I mentioned, Raddeck and his cohorts intended to get to a minor artifact which the group of PCs is currently hunting. As scripted, Raddeck and his bandit group arrived first, literally minutes before the PCs arrived. Raddeck is standing outside the temple's entryway (the fifteen foot wide hallway mentioned earlier) smoking his pipe when he spots the PCs.

The PCs charge, and Raddeck draws his Spiked Chain and meets them. He calls for Gireon (currently investigating the door to the artifact room) to come help out. Gireon is the bard I mentioned earlier in my post, and here are his stats:

As the stats illustrate... He's not especially powerful. All told, Raddeck and Gireon combined are a 10th level Encounter. For a party of characters of 12th level, the encounter should have been a joke... Which is why I'm sort of surprised that Raddeck and Gireon nearly wiped out the party.

The Battle

The battle began pretty much as I'd anticipated. Raddeck and Gireon were ready for the PCs by the time they got within range. Raddeck tried to get them to leave because he'd gotten to the temple first, and the PCs made the usual blustering threats when presented with someone in their way. Initiative is rolled, and it comes out to be Raddeck, Gireon, the Bard, the Fighter, the Rogue, and the Ranger.

Round 1: Raddeck and Gireon withdraw into the temple's hallway, Gireon casting Haste on himself and Raddeck. The party Bard responds by casting Haste as well and then follows them into the temple while drawing his sword. The Fighter charges, but is stopped by Raddeck's Stand Still ability. The Rogue and the Ranger are stopped similarily.

Round 2: Raddeck Full Attacks, hitting the party Ranger and then successfully tripping him. He follows up by trying to trip the Fighter, which fails. He then takes a five-foot step back. Gireon takes a five-foot step back and uses Rapid Shot. He puts two arrows into the Rogue and takes one shot at the prone Fighter which misses, and then puts a fourth arrow into the party's Bard. The party Bard moves up beside the Rogue and casts Cure Serious Wounds on him to bring him out of the single digit HPs. The Ranger stands and throws one of his three daggers at Gireon and crits. Rogue and Fighter try once again to close, but are stopped by Stand Still again. (At this point I asked the Rogue why he wasn't Tumbling to avoid the attacks of opportunity, and he got this "Oh yeah!" look on his face.)

Round 3: Raddeck trips both the Fighter and the Rogue, and follows up by landing an attack on the now-prone Rogue. Gireon puts a pair of arrows into the party Bard and another into the Rogue. The party Bard casts Shout on Gireon and Raddeck, but both make their saves and take only minor damage. The Ranger tries to close, but is stopped by Stand Still. The Fighter and Rogue stand, and the Fighter gets hit by an Attack of Opportunity.

Round 4: Raddeck Full Attacks, hitting the Rogue once and critically hitting the Fighter, then takes a five-foot step back. Gireon follows up by shooting the Bard twice more and taking a five-foot step back. The party Bard tries Shout again, but rolls poorly for his damage and deals little damage, though Raddeck fails his save and is also deafened. The Ranger and Fighter try to close, but are stopped by Stand Still. The Rogue slips through with his attack, however, and manages to deal more damage to Raddeck.

Round 5: Raddeck Full Attacks, and manages to drop the Rogue to -1, taking him out of the fight. He then takes a five-foot step back. Gireon likewise Rapid Shots the party Bard, hitting him with three different arrows and dropping him to -3 before taking his own five-foot step back. Against my recommendations to withdraw, the Fighter and Ranger both try to close with their foes. The Fighter slips through to tag Raddeck for quite a bit of damage but the Ranger is stopped by Stand Still once more.

Round 6: Raddeck moves ten feet back and throws a dart at the Fighter, which misses. Gireon moves ten feet back and casts Cure Serious Wounds on Raddeck, healing him of quite a bit of damage. The Fighter tries to close and is checked by Stand Still, but the Ranger gets through and hits Raddeck. Meanwhile, the Bard stabilizes and the Rogue drops to -2.

Round 7: Raddeck moves another ten feet back and throws another dart at the Fighter, which hits this time. Gireon attacks the Ranger, dropping him to single-digit HP and then takes a five-foot step back. The Ranger charges once more and Raddeck takes him down with a normal Attack of Opportunity which drops him to -6. The Fighter closes and manages to hit Raddeck once again. Rogue drops to -3.

Round 8: Raddeck moves ten feet back and throws another dart at the Fighter, which once again hits. Gireon moves fifteen feet back and casts Cure Moderate Wounds on Raddeck to restore more health. The Fighter tries to close but Raddeck checks him with Stand Still once again. The Ranger drops to -7 and the Rogue stabalizes.

Round 9: Raddeck full attacks and drops the Fighter to -6 HP. The Haste spell which Gireon cast at the beginning of the fight wears off. The Ranger drops to -8.

The combat was of course over at this point. Raddeck had Gireon heal them a bit and then took their gold and one piece of equipment each... The party Bard lost a Charisma boosting item, the Ranger lost one of his magical Kukris, the Fighter lost his Scale Mail+2, and the Rogue lost his magical Crossbow.

Notes on the Fight

I think Haste made all the difference for Raddeck and Gireon (and I'm going to be building a Barcher next time I'm a PC). Because of the flow of the fight, Raddeck could control the flow of the battle and decide when he wanted to benefit from his increased number of attacks. The Haste spell the party Bard cast didn't really help at all. About the most useful thing he did was cast Shout twice, and that got shot down by two fantastic rolls by Gireon. Admittedly it was really close, even if the description above doesn't reflect it. There were a couple times when Raddeck nearly got taken down by the Fighter's painful smacks and I believe Gireon was pretty much down to single digit HP by the time the fight was over. If the Rogue had remembered to Tumble from the beginning, that probably would have made a difference as well... and if Raddeck were ever Full Attacked by either the Ranger or the Fighter, he would have been killed. Heck, if the Fighter or the Ranger had had a Composite Longbow, two or three rounds would have finished him off.

Regarding the party, I could have killed them off completely, but decided not to do so for a few reasons: TPKs are never fun, the prospect of revenge is always sweet so now they have someone they intend to catch up to and kill. I pointed out that Raddeck could have just left them to die (or even been thorough and finished the job properly) but they've locked themselves into a group victim mentality which I can't shake them loose from. They did all agree on one thing, though... They need ranged weapons. The party Rogue plans to pick up another Crossbow and the Rapid Reload feat with his bonus feat at 13th, The Bard is going to be picking up a Shortbow, and the Fighter plans to pick up a Composite Longbow to take advantage of his strength bonus. Only the Ranger is being stubborn.

I imagine that when they catch up to poor Raddeck and Gireon the fight is going to be short and brutal. Outside of that one specific encounter in which the deck was stacked to thoroughly favor them, the two of them are now just like any other low-level PCs... Meat for the slaughter.

[LotharBot]

You may want to set up a longer-term rivalry with Raddeck and his buddies. No doubt, now that they've picked up the party's lewt, they've also managed to level and such.

You could have your party run into them again, right after some major fight that leaves them (meaning, your party) in bad shape. Have some dialogue about "last time I ran into you folks, y'all attacked us, and we even had the decency to let you live." See if your party is willing to learn lesson #2: not everything needs killed.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Well, the party has started tracking Raddeck and Gireon right now... but if Raddeck and Gireon had horses nearby, they'd get away clean (for now). The session ended with the party Ranger tracking them down... Hmmm, might make for an interesting session next Wednesday if the party is tracking Raddeck and Gireon down in a city.

[Roderick_BR]

Things went reasonably well then.
Next time, let them enter an encounter where they can take out a good deal of opponents with ranged attacks before closing into meelee.
You can also suggest that precision allows a character to shot an enemy in melee with your ally without the danger of hitting him. In narrow corridors, where you can't have more than 2 meleers fighting at once, it can be a useful feat.

[Jorkens]

Hmmm, yes... after hitting them fairly hard with the stick, give them a bit of carrot and a chance to play with their new toys.