Pimp my Fighter

[harveyslayer]

Ok so I know in the last wee i have been all over the place with my threads but I figure what the hay, i am a noob and i have a lot to learn. So I was wondering if it was possible tyo make a pure fighter into something really powerful. I understand I will never be as good as a wizard or cleric but I still want to make him/her the best he/she can be.

[Blackhawk748]

Its doable, but not easy, id recommend aiming for one of the Weapon Supremacy Feats, are they amazing? no. are they pretty good? ya. Otherwise pick a fighting style and stick with it.

On another note "really powerful" is pretty subjective. In some groups a Dungeuoncrasher Fighter is "really powerful" in others not so much.

If you want to get a bit more advanced you could go Zentarhim Dungeuoncrasher Fighter, Fear Lockdown with quite a bit of damage output.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Be a large size race or a race with powerful build, such as a Goliath in Races of Stone or a Half-Ogre in Races of Destiny. Buy off the level adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

Alternatively, hire an NPC spellcaster to use Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) + Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) on you at a caster level of 20th, and say he has a Ring of Enduring Arcana in CM so the Dispel DC on those is 35. At the standard rate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) this should cost you 3,700 gp.

Have a Cha score at least 15 by 6th level (14 and +1 at 4th works, or 12 and +1 at 4th and get a +2 item before 6th level). Make your Str score a priority, your Dex score is also very important, as is Con. You'll need Int 13+ for Combat Expertise. This character needs a very good set of ability scores just to be able to function, compare that to most spellcasters only needing one stat plus Con and everything else is a luxury.

Use the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature in Dungeonscape. Use the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, rename and reflavor it to big-bad-bully to strip it of association to a specific organization. Also get free class features (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) and trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).

Get max ranks in Intimidate, take the Never Outnumbered skill trick in Complete Scoundrel, and your 6th level feat should be Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark. Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) if possible (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats, because despite being a Fighter you'll never have enough early feats. Get Combat Reflexes, EWP: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock-Back (RoS), Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip asap. Plan to pick up Weapon Focus/Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery (PH2), Greater Weapon Focus/Specialization, Weapon Supremacy (PH2), and Defensive Sweep (PH2) after you've taken all of the necessary feats.

You make an attack to trip, get a free hit to deal damage, knock-back, and knock them into the wall for dungeoncrasher damage. You can make someone cower every round with a swift action intimidate check, or make everyone within 10 ft. cower for a round once per encounter with never outnumbered. This is a control build that's only capable of dealing significant damage due to knock-back + dungeoncrasher. It would actually be much better as a Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, none of the above would change and you can still get Weapon Supremacy at 20th with your Fighter 10 bonus feat.

[harveyslayer]

oh, so i guess fighters really do suck in the long run then, maybe just pure warblade and call it a day?

[Blackhawk748]

They dont "just suck" they just take a Bunch of ACFs to get to tier 4, where a warblade is naturally. If you wanna run around and just smack stuff with a sword the Warblade is great. If you want to slap people across a room with a 15ft chain while screamin "COWER PUNY WARRIORS FOR KOR THE BLOODY HAS ARRIVED!!" then the above build is for you.

[harveyslayer]

hmmm, i could give the fighter build a try and se how well i can play it

[Captnq]

My recommendation is this:

Have Fun.

Yeah, I know. The biggest Min/Maxer on the boards saying you should just have fun. One of the seven signs, right? The reason for optimizing is to build a concept you want to play. If your concept is just "I KICK DA AZZ!" Then you will get bored in very little time. Now figuring out how to kill someone with an igloo, that takes some creativity!

Concept first. Then make that concept as min/maxed as possible, within the theme and limitations that the concept gives you. Just saying, "What can you do with a fighter" is going to be boring because you quickly are limited to just one concept. The best one.

Wizards wind up Incanatrixs/Ultimate Magus/Whatevers. Clerics turn into CoDzillas. Blah Blah Blah. Boring. Seriously. Done this long enough that winning isn't the point. Winning with STYLE is the point.

[harveyslayer]

yeah if you are not having fun there isn't much point to being powerful.

[Iwasforger03]

Fighter simply takes WORK. But WITH Work, Fighter can be awesome. Can other classes be awesome with less work? yes. But there ARE some things only fighter can do, because god, bless my fighter feats for I have more feats than all ya'll mother f******. Fighter will never be Wizard. Fighter will never be sorcerer or a bunch of other things. But The awesome thing about fighter is that when it comes to fighting, there are a million ways Fighter can go. Is the above build the optimal fighter? one of them, but if you want to do something else, do it.

If you just want a hard hitting melee build, and you don't care what class it is, and you DM ALLOWS ToB (some don't), maybe warblade is for you. Maybe Barbarian is. But dont' forget, most classes don't have nearly the sheer possibility of the fighter. And That includes flavor/fluff, not just stats. Fighter takes work, but you can make a great many things using fighter as your base, in more than one way, and with many different flavors.

So... what do you want, and are you willing to believe fighter can get it for you?

Edit: Also, Catnaq, I like that one. "Winning isn't the point, Winning with STYLE is the point."

[WeaselGuy]

Wizards wind up Incanatrixs/Ultimate Magus/Whatevers. Clerics turn into CoDzillas. Blah Blah Blah. Boring. Seriously. Done this long enough that winning isn't the point. Winning with STYLE is the point.

I like that... That's why, right now, I'm working on a Half-Drow Ranger/Fighter that's going into Scorpion Wraith and Dread Commando. Crazy optimized? Not so much. Run's around with a pair of Drow Long Knives Sudden Striking baddies and shaping veils of darkness because it looks Crazy awesome.:smallbiggrin:

So yeah, figure out some style of fighting that you think is awesome, and then you can work out the best way of making it work for you.

[harveyslayer]

Iwasforger03

guess if i had to take my pick I would like to either be the greatest greatsword fighter like Artorias or some crazy chain blade fighter like kratos

[WeaselGuy]

For the chain fighter, definitely gotta get exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain), and I recommend combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, knock-down, karmic strike and robilar's gambit. You attack them, deal >10 damage, attempt a trip. If they get tripped, you attack them again with an attack of opportunity. You get to do that to people that attack you too.

[harveyslayer]

how does chain work for combat? like threatened squares and range

[WeaselGuy]

how does chain work for combat? like threatened squares and range

You threaten everything within 10 feet of you.

[harveyslayer]

can I also attack everything within 10 feet of me? and is it possible to get a longer chain?

[WeaselGuy]

You threaten everything within 10' of you... In order to attack everything within 10' (at the same time, I'm presuming) you would need Whirlwind Attack, which requires Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Combat Expertise.

Need at a minimum 13 Int and 13 Dex. Recommend Str>Con>Dex>Wis>Int>Cha, if you can afford it. Charisma only helps your Intimidate skill, and this isn't an Intimidation build... Wisdom will increase your Will saves, while Intelligence only gives you more languages and skills. As long as your Int is higher than 13, you can still get the feats you need. Dexterity increases your Armor Class, Initiative, Reflex saves, and Attacks of Opportunity per round. Try to at least get a 15 in here. Constitution increases your Fortitude saves and, more importantly, your Hit Points. Never dump Con. And finally, Strength increases your Attack Bonus and your Attack Damage. You're a melee fighter, you want a high Strength.

I would recommend taking the Hit-and-Run Fighter ACF from Drow of the Underdark. You lose heavy armor and tower shields, but gain +2 Initiative and the ability to apply your Dexterity to damage against flat-footed foes. Might not be much, but every little bit helps.

Human Fighter
1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
1B) Combat Expertise
1H) Combat Reflexes
2) Improved Trip
3) Knock-Down
4) Dodge
6) Mobility
6B) Spring Attack
8) Whirlwind Attack
9) Karmic Strike
10) Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
12) Robilar's Gambit
12B) Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain)
14) Greater Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
15) Greater Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain)
16) Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
18) Weapon Supremacy (Spiked Chain)
18B) Power Attack
20) Improved Initiative

There are so bloody many feats you get as a fighter 20 build, I honestly didn't know what to do with them all, but this gets you the ability to pretty much hit anyone around you, if you deal at least 10 damage to any of them, you attempt to trip them for free, if the trip succeeds you can make an attack of opportunity against them. If someone attacks you and hits, you get an attack of opportunity against them. You can lower your AC in order to get a bonus to attacks of opportunity when people attack you. You also do obscene amounts of damage with a Spiked Chain in particular, and half decent with other Piercing weapons as well.

[Eldariel]

Your approach is a bit upside down. You should be asking you what you want out of your character - that is, what you want him being able to do. Fighter is but a set of abilities used to create certain types of characters. If you want a satisfying play experience, I suggest approaching with "I want a character with X abilities" and then making a build that gets those abilities. Fighter is useful for creating one-job wonders; you can build an intimidator, a dungeoncrasher or the more traditional AoO controller or charger with a Fighter but the class is rarely good at more than one thing.

You can achieve reasonable competency in two of the mentioned areas, but overall, Fighter is good for a focused specialized martial build. If you want a wide array of skills, looking at ToB classes is preferable, but for any one job, you can combine Barbarian and Fighter with some Warblade and end up at a reasonable result.


As such, I gather you want a non-magical warrior type. Now decide if you want a hyperspecialized warrior or a generalist with skills on multiple fields and build from there. If you want a specialist, use some Fighter - if you want a generalist, use Warblade. Remember that non-casters multiclass rather well since they don't really have level-scaling abilities so they don't lose much.

[WeaselGuy]

Your approach is a bit upside down. You should be asking you what you want out of your character - that is, what you want him being able to do. Fighter is but a set of abilities used to create certain types of characters. If you want a satisfying play experience, I suggest approaching with "I want a character with X abilities" and then making a build that gets those abilities. Fighter is useful for creating one-job wonders; you can build an intimidator, a dungeoncrasher or the more traditional AoO controller or charger with a Fighter but the class is rarely good at more than one thing.

You can achieve reasonable competency in two of the mentioned areas, but overall, Fighter is good for a focused specialized martial build. If you want a wide array of skills, looking at ToB classes is preferable, but for any one job, you can combine Barbarian and Fighter with some Warblade and end up at a reasonable result.


As such, I gather you want a non-magical warrior type. Now decide if you want a hyperspecialized warrior or a generalist with skills on multiple fields and build from there. If you want a specialist, use some Fighter - if you want a generalist, use Warblade. Remember that non-casters multiclass rather well since they don't really have level-scaling abilities so they don't lose much.

He already said he wanted either a greatsword fighter, or a chain fighter...

Iwasforger03

guess if i had to take my pick I would like to either be the greatest greatsword fighter like Artorias or some crazy chain blade fighter like kratos

[Eldariel]

He already said he wanted either a greatsword fighter, or a chain fighter...

That does not answer the question. Greatsword Warrior and Chain Fighter can both be built in many ways (with Greatsword I'd be inclined to use more Barbarian in any case) - Chain in particular can focus on basically anything from bullrushing to tripping to charging to area control. A Warblade for instance has more of a mixture of an offensive/defensive style and more aptitude in other weapons while a Fighter might become really good at charging and area control. What does "greatest" mean? The one with the most perfected version of a single trick or the one with the largest amount of useful tricks available?

[harveyslayer]

I like the build weasalguy posted. I don't know what else to say lol

[Irk]

I like the build weasalguy posted. I don't know what else to say lol
What do you want to be able to do? With enough messing around, your fighter could do a lot more than you would suspect.

[Gildedragon]

Note also the scorpion chain (ECS IIRC) (like a spiked chain but slashing because it has a knife at its end) and the dragon chain (RHoD) which is like a bludgeoning spiked chain but no disarm bonus but it can grapple and constrict

I am personally partial to the dragonchain as it has an extra combat option for a slight relative penalty to disarm (note that you can disarm with any weapon)

[harveyslayer]

What do you want to be able to do? With enough messing around, your fighter could do a lot more than you would suspect.

I am not too experienced to know exactly what I want, but the chain control fighter sounds like a cool concept.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You threaten everything within 10' of you... In order to attack everything within 10' (at the same time, I'm presuming) you would need Whirlwind Attack, which requires Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Combat Expertise.

Never spend all those feats to get Whirlwind Attack, just buy a Whirling weapon from MIC, and/or get enough Warblade to use the Mithral Tornado maneuver. You will never use Whirlwind Attack often enough to justify spending all those feats. A Whirling weapon costs a +1 bonus and allows you to use Whirlwind Attack 3/day. Mithral Tornado allows you to attack every adjacent opponent, every one of those attacks gets a +2 to hit, and you can still use Cleave with it. If you're going to take Whirlwind Attack, take it on a Psychic Warrior/Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) and use it as a standard action instead of a full round action.

[DMVerdandi]

I would strongly disagree with just about everyone here.
Winning is the point, because if you die prematurely (before rezz spells are obtained). then you are dead forever. It's actually not different from real life. You have to be strong to survive, and if you are weak, nature culls you from the herd. The only alternative is relying on others excessively and without reciprocity.

That sirs is why the fighter is such a hard class to play with. Yes, with system mastery, one can make something out of the fighter, but the degree it takes often separates the mice from the men in this game. Someone said there was a million ways to build a fighter. I disagree. There are a million ways to fudge the build, which causes dependency on other characters, missed objectives, etc. There are only five or six viable builds for a fighter. Chain tripper, charger, archer, two weapon fighter, unarmed fighter, and mounted build. Nearly anything else? In to the trash you go.

Some would say that is a lot, but when it's realized that you have to essentially devote every feat you have to that singular style, and you only get 2 or three tricks, even if they do hella damage.

So, while some may have fun with the building process, some don't want to try so hard for that viability. You might, but I wouldn't presuppose that you would actually have fun with the fighter. I mean this game runs on magic/supernatural effects, so if it is your intent to stay away from it, then it's gonna be hard. It can be done, but it's hard. It isn't really viable, but meh. You can make the fighter into something really powerful yes... Would I? Nah.

Now, I will say this. The fighter can get into those builds far easier than most classes (sans wizard), so if you want to do those without using or relying on spells, fighter does it most easily, but is it really worth it?

Archer builds are decent, but need dispelling capability as there are multiple spells that can block or shut down arrows. And the support archery gets from some spells is crazy.
Chargers are kind of bad, unless they have pounce, which is not native on a fighter.
Chain trippers are actually one of the more solid builds. Can't say much about trippers. It's the better mechanic.

Fighters are probably the best unarmed fighters after casters. Can't say much. Again, Pounce.
Fighters can gain all of the two weapon fighting feats, which technically makes them best at two weapon fighting, HOWEVER, damage enhancing class abilities like sneak attack and the like make better use out of the feats.

Mounted Chargers are pretty good but there is the problem of getting decent mounts. This is nothing to classes that allow for mounts, wild companions and such. Moreover, classes that can summon beasts have it even better.


The interesting thing is that in gestalt the weaknesses of both are completely circumvented. Lets say you want to gish out. The thing that spell casters lack the most is feats. They hardly have enough to bring their own spell casting to it's most optimal. Fighters have the feats, but no magical resources to make them work to their best.



Anyhow. I wouldn't.
Any medium BAB or more caster class is a more than viable replacement to a fighter, and still keeps that edge. Battle sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Duskblade. All of these guys rek. And you can still use those core styles for the most part.

[Blackhawk748]

Sir i dont know what kind of game you play, but if everyone needs magic in it id prefer not to play it. If it works for you great, but its not what id play.

[Irk]

There are only five or six viable builds for a fighter. Chain tripper, charger, archer, two weapon fighter, unarmed fighter, and mounted build. Nearly anything else? In to the trash you go.

AoO based, Grappler, Dungeoncrasher, Thug fighter, any one of the various permutations of a trip build (Chain tripper being a subcategory with sub-subcategroies), Sneak Attack Fighter with Ambush Feats, Sneak attack + Thug Fighter, Weird uses of the various Tactical feats, Sunder-er, Disarming build. Just to name a few others than those you mentioned. Fighter is a blank canvas, so people have spent more than a bit of time considering how to build an interesting one.

[dextercorvia]

It takes roughly 11 feats to cheese your way into 9th level spells. (Elven) Fighters get more feats than anyone. Now you just need to use your WBL on DCFSing crud into powah.

[Sith_Happens]

Okay, first step in pimping your Fighter, you need to make sure he/she/it is worth the money. I suggest starting with Endurance and a lot of cross-class Perform ranks and working from there...

...Oh, wait, you meant figuratively didn't you?:smalltongue:

[harveyslayer]

Okay, first step in pimping your Fighter, you need to make sure he/she/it is worth the money. I suggest starting with Endurance and a lot of cross-class Perform ranks and working from there...

...Oh, wait, you meant figuratively didn't you?:smalltongue:

good message lol

[DMVerdandi]

Sir i dont know what kind of game you play, but if everyone needs magic in it id prefer not to play it. If it works for you great, but its not what id play.

horse apples. See how far you get not using magic weapons or items as a fighter.
Only use mundane arms and armor, and have no spells cast on you, or for your benefit.
It's not me, it's 3.5.