Gestalt Indecisiveness

[greyknight666]

I"m currently look at going into a gestalt campaign lvl 1 and on. No idea on the upper lvl limit. All wotc sources/mags couple selective third party stuff mostly mongoose publishing, pathfinder material is fair game on case by case basis. I'm looking at a not very optimized party but its bound to happen some what just on the nature of gestalt characters. But the base story is a low magic campaign(magic items if found will be significant no magic marts). From what I've managed to dig out of the DM, we will be running around an area preparing for an invasion of some sort leading into a helms deep scenario of a set number of days of a siege before reinforcements arrive. Need to stick with mostly core races subraces are fine but need to be able to pull off looking human at least or one of the normal major races.

Party Make up:
Exalted VoP Monk/Fighter(been hinting vow of peace/nonviolence eventually)
Cleric/Divine Bard(general buffer/healer)
Monk/hashshashin(home brew assassin's creed assassin found on dandwiki)
Scout/soulknife/soulbow
Ranger/scout?/Rogue?(this one hasn't quite figured out what she wants just knows she wants twf)

I'm currently seeing too many good combos. I haven't played any gestalt games in a long time so i'm having a hard time picking.
Shifter Barbarian(pounce)/Totemist at 1st then swapping to shifter druid/totemist rest of the way. Using the shifter substitution lvls and dropping the companion moving into Planar shepard eventually. Never used MoI before so i'm hazy what i'm doing here. Just pictured a bear with multiple arms grappling something to death.

Human Crusader/CCleric/Prestige paladin 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator(not hard to see where this is going)
Or some combination of Crusader of just going the tankylockdown route
Dwarf Barbarian/Fighter > Frenzied Berserker/Warblade? or Crusader?(idea here is just be semi simple and go for the big beat stick that might kill the party eventually, haven't quite worked out the class/lvl spread plan yet.

Kobold Wizard or Sorcerer/?: Idea here was just totally cheese out a character for once. Just couldn't figure out how to get pass the whole being a small reptile that every villager will want to kill. Couldn't figure out any ways to disguise that fact longer then 40 mins i think. Other issue i couldn't figure out what to pair it with. Its been a while since i was an arcane caster also. Could drop the kobold part and not cheese it out too badly.

Mongoose Publishing Chaos Mage/Cleric or psion: Something i've wanted to mess with and see how quickly i could kill myself basically while actually trying to play seriously.

But I'm open to suggestions to what everyone thinks would be a good pairing. Thanks in advance and I'm sorry for the rantings. Its a tad late but I wanted to get my thoughts out see what ends up sounding good.

[Phelix-Mu]

Beware tricking out a Tier 1//something synergistic. Some of the players look like they haven't really got a lot of optimization going, and a well-optimized gestalt will shatter campaign balance just as fast as a normal campaign.

I'd aim more for a combo of Tier3s. You will still make half the party look silly, and you won't have to worry about not being able to use 90% of your optimization potential without having the run of the table.

Limited items makes subsystems and casting seem key. The Crusader idea sounded cool, but I'd pair it with some T3 or other, like maybe one of the partial list casters. That way you will have room to evolve your build and get more powerful without making all the mundanes look impotent. Crusader//glaivelock? Is that even a thing?

Anyway, the only really solid advice that I can give is stay away from Planar Shepherd. If someone else is looking at monk//fighter or scout//soulknife, you probably shouldn't uncork the single most borked PrC out there. It could work if you were really restrained and unoptimized the entire rest of your build, but that rather defeats most of the fun of being Tier 1.

[AvatarVecna]

Since, as has already been stated, the party doesn't look to be particularly optimized, the only suggestion I can give you is to play something fun.

So the party, as it stands, consists of:
-Monk Assassin
-Dual-Wielder
-Soulbow
-Generic Cleric/Bard
-Eventual Apostle of Peace

It looks like divine casting is covered, skills should be covered, and melee combat is covered. That leaves some ranged combat and arcane casting needing some support, if you want all bases covered.

Arcane Archer
-Fighter 20//Wizard (Feat Wizard) 18/Arcane Archer 2

Ultimate Peacemonger
-Wizard (X Specialist) 20//Y 10/Apostle of Peace 10
--Go nuts: go enchanter to force people to be peaceful; go necromancer and punish people for their violent behavior by bringing their victims back from the grave to haunt/eat them; go illusionist and trick foes into not fighting. Bonus points if you go necromancy specialist while also possessing the Vow of Purity.

Captain Boomerang
-Human Fighter 20//Rogue (Feat Rogue) 6/Human Paragon 3/Exotic Weapon Master 3/Hulking Hurler 3/Master Thrower 5
--Use boomerangs and Boomerang Daze to ruin your enemies' days. Throw boomerangs the size of small planes. Do not overdo your Str for Hulking Hurler, as this can make the DM mad; you don't need triple digit Str by 20th level, even though it's possible.

This is only a few ideas, but so long as you have fun with whatever you build, it shouldn't matter much what it is.

[Seppo87]

How about a bloodstorm blade/drunken master?
Insert a couple levels of city brawler barbarian.
Throw everything around dealing unarmed damage. Fight with flying tables and chairs.
Take a swordsage level. Now your flying tables are also flaming.

[Ellowryn]

Your Party really, really needs a good arcane, why not go Batman Wizard (Google it if you dont know)? But instead of focusing on being good at everything, be the sneaky godlike tier one. Grab spells that benefit your allies with a few battlefield control and save/suck spells on hand. Nothing says im not tier 1 by having the monks actually be able to contribute to a fight while you sit back and enjoy a good book.

[Socksy]

If there's not much magic going on you probably shouldn't go for a full caster. Maybe Wilder//Warlock?
Lots and lots of blasting, and the arcane type your party needs.

[greyknight666]

I was eyeballing psionics to go blaster happy with then using wizard for cc factors. Then the whole enchanter idea caught my attention. Why fight the invading army when you can turn it against itself. I'll probably have to work at it a little bit. Or should i just go illusions? Pair them up with rogue for the skills and the chance at sneaking away if magic fails. Still not sure on the feats and what not for it. Never really made a social character. Oh maybe i should use savage species and grab the succubus......

[sideswipe]

the powerful gestalt options are 1 active and one passive side. but since the rest of the party dont look overly powerful then you can ignore this.

i love psions. i have played a gestalt blasty psion. they are much better at it then most arcane casters.
you can use something like their first level crystal shards power and pump it up like mad with more d6's. and get overchannel + talented to use metapsionics(empower) on it for free after level 7 (or around their) and cheap anyway for levels before that.

psions also get many cool tricks.

but even that might be too powerful for your campaign. i know i was dealing (at level 10) at about 70+ damage for about 10-12 powerpoints on a power.
the rest of the party were struggling to get 30 on a decent hit. and occasionally a couple hits a turn.

so. i would go with something like psion or wizard. and focus on utility, buffs and debuffing. your allies get stronger, the enemy gets weaker, and they have fun whilst you can sit there like this :smallcool:.

and couple it with something fun and silly with ability synergy but might not be the best choice. i like factotums, and they don't have to be broken.

[dextercorvia]

Regarding your kobold dilemma. Hat of disguise is cheap. In the meantime, deep cloak.

[AlsoD]

Regarding your kobold dilemma. Hat of disguise is cheap. In the meantime, deep cloak.

A better solution: be a human or a half-human with a flaw and take the pathfinder feat Racial Heritage: Kobold and Dragonwrought at first level.

Half-elf sorcerers are especially great if you can get 1) pathfinder's stat bonus and 2) pathfinder's Paragon Surge.

Disclaimer: by the looks of it your groups power level is pretty low and Dragonwrought seems like it'd be far beyond the power level for the rest of your group, let alone including Paragon Surge too.

[XmonkTad]

Depending on how your party works, sorcerer//binder would be a good combo. Sorcerer is your full arcane caster, and binder gives you the ability to sneak around or be a backup face or anything really. You are SAD on CHA, and if you want to blast, there is always tainted scholar+Naberus (warning: cheesey powergaming).

[malonkey1]

I'd go Beguiler//Warlock. Warlock offers you some neat tricks (and you can run Clawlock, if you want), and Beguiler allows you a party face and some control ability.

[dextercorvia]

A better solution: be a human or a half-human with a flaw and take the pathfinder feat Racial Heritage: Kobold and Dragonwrought at first level.

Half-elf sorcerers are especially great if you can get 1) pathfinder's stat bonus and 2) pathfinder's Paragon Surge.

Disclaimer: by the looks of it your groups power level is pretty low and Dragonwrought seems like it'd be far beyond the power level for the rest of your group, let alone including Paragon Surge too.

Really? You think it is a better solution to spend an extra feats (depending on race choice), and require cross platform material (the longer pathfinder is out, the less backward compatible it really is), than a heavy cloak and some roleplay, or a Hat of Disguise (1800gp).

If it is that important then you can do it within 3.5 Canon by going Changeling with Racial Emulation, and only activating it when you need to pick up a feat or a Rite of Passage.

[sideswipe]

take first level in factotum and be a human with able learner. and the other sneak fighter 1

level 2 rogue 1 /factotum 2
level 3 factotum 3/ninja 1
level 4 scout 1/other thing with 1d6 sneak attack damage or sudden strike equivalent.

all feats are font of inspiration. and once you hit factotum 3 you get lots of sneak attack dice.

skill points into iaijitsu focus, tumble and a few other skills. maybe some skill tricks.

so you will be getting (assuming picking up a 1d6 apart from scout through a prestige or base class (i mentioned all the possibilities in another thread)
10d6 from inspiration 4d6 from other sources and say 3-5d6 from iaijitsu focus (use a quick razor).

win :) you still get a couple spells, casting trapfinding e.t.c
take rogue and get pen strike so sneak attack all.

[Socratov]

Well, for gestalt I usually mix 2 classes who on their own might just not make the cut. One of my favourites is Warlock. You can play it without feats or ability scores and use those for your other side. Meanwhile it gives a ranged touch attack (nice) and some nifty tricks or skillboosts (like Beguiling Influence, Baleful Utterance, Fell Flight, Spider Walk, Walk Unseen, See the Unseen, the list goes on and on). For the second or 'off tree' it's an excellent choice. Pick the right invocations and you don't need any ability scores.

For your main tree, look for things you want to do and if you can find some synergy with the warlock side in terms of invocations or whatever.

I recommend:

Bard, for the great social boosts and the fact that after you DFI the crap out of everything, you can pretty much do a touch attack worth EB damage+DFI damage. Guess who will have it tough... Not you that's who.

Dread Necromancer, now you were always able to summon undead, now they don't even cost spellslots and you can heal them easily. Become Necropolitan with the corpsecrafter line of feats to become a very funny undead mookmancer. Go on, have fun.

Artificer: at lvls 4 and 12 Warlock gives a lot of options to craft (read imbue item, it's really that crazy). Craft anything you want. Use anything you want. If it's a spell you can get it, wand it and shoot it.

Scout: If you want to go ranged scout with improved skirmish can be very fun if you get fell flight and use flyby attack. move 20', shoot, move out of range of enemy. With a potential range of 250' you can pretty much hit whatever you want without every being in danger. (and for that you can always take Flee the Scene).

become a drow warlock//rogue (FYI, when showing gestalt builds, use // to distinguish between classes per level), more dmg, glaive and sneak attack and darkness at will to hide in. Besides, nothing says "I'm gonna backstab you" like a drow glaivelock/rogue with 'Blend into Shadows'.

totemist will grant you natural attacks. with Eldritch claw you can pump this up to become the ultimate clawlock. Nuff said.

I'm sure there is something psionic that will provide synergy with Warlock.

[sideswipe]

isnt warlock/ artificer the cheapest way to craft things? as you can use warlock to pretend you cast the spell. thus saving you from buying a scroll if you do not know the spell?

[Socratov]

isnt warlock/ artificer the cheapest way to craft things? as you can use warlock to pretend you cast the spell. thus saving you from buying a scroll if you do not know the spell?

Well, I'm sure someone can do such stuff easier, but it seems like it is. Though, if you are going to craft as a warlock you really do want to go for 2 level sof chameleon...

[GGambrel]

...But the base story is a low magic campaign(magic items if found will be significant no magic marts)...

Party Make up:
Exalted VoP Monk/Fighter(been hinting vow of peace/nonviolence eventually)
Cleric/Divine Bard(general buffer/healer)
Monk/hashshashin(home brew assassin's creed assassin found on dandwiki)
Scout/soulknife/soulbow
Ranger/scout?/Rogue?(this one hasn't quite figured out what she wants just knows she wants twf)


I just thought it might be worth pointing out that Vow of Poverty, though often regarded as under-powered, might be pretty good in this campaign if magic items will be as rare as you said.

I like the concept of a Beguiler/Warlock shared by Malonkey1, as well as the Factotum class brought up by sideswipe. You might consider pairing Factotum with another class that benefits from high Int (Beguiler, Duskblade, Eldritch Knight, Wizard, etc) for Int-bolstered skills, extra standard actions, and general utility.

Warshaper is also a pretty neat class if you're interested in shape-shifting, getting attacks of opportunity, and fast healing. Anyway, let us know what you decide on! :smallsmile:

[Divide by Zero]

Binder/Bard/Anima Mage//Marshal. You can do everything well, but nothing so well that you constantly steal the spotlight, you have enough active abilities to not get bored, and you hand out group buffs like candy so everyone else gets to be more awesome too.

[Socratov]

Oops, forgot a great possibility: Psionic Artificer//Warlock 12/Chameleon 2/Warlock 6. Now you can make any psionic and magic item.

[greyknight666]

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys. Busy with work, so I haven't just haven't had a chance to use any of it and make a choice.