Brunhilda - Bard Blaster Help Needed

[A.A.King]

I was browsing through the Bard Spell List and I noticed a few Sonic spells which I quite liked. The first one was Creaking Cacophony which can really boost Sonic Damage. The others where Painful Echoes + Deafening Blast + Resonating Agony, because I rather like spells with build in synergy. Then I remembered the Lyric Thaumaturge "Sonic Might" ability and an image popped in my head. A Dwarf Bard dealing damage using the sound of her voice. Her main perform skill would be Perform (Sing), with the singing style being Opera. Imagine a Valkyrie from a Wagner opera as a Dwarf and that's basically the image I got in my head. I would like to finish the build by selecting some more Spells and perfecting the feat selection but I'm not sure what would be good. I limited the levels of Lyric Thaumaturge to 5 so that I can still get the Inspire Courage of a 20th level bard when using a Vest of Legend. When it comes to feats, Melodic Casting and Song of the Heart are obvious, Versatile Spellcaster seems like a safe bet and Clap of Thunder allows me to deal Sonic Damage without using Spells but I'm not sure if Spell Focus is worth it.

Any suggestions on good spells and feats?


Race: Dream Dwarf or Gold Dwarf
Level Progression
Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 5 / Bard +9 (15)

Feats:
1. Melodic Casting
3. Versatile Spellcaster
6. Spell Focus (Evocation)????
6b. Song of the Heart (Trading away Suggestion)
8. Captivating Melody (Lyric Thaumaturge Bonus Feat)
9. Clap of Thunder
12. Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)???
15. ???
18. ???


Spell List
1st: Inspirational Boost, Joyful Noise
2nd: Painful Echoes, Sonic Weapon (to use on an Ally's Weapon)
3rd: Deafening Blast, Creaking Cacophony
4th: Shout
5th: Channeled Sound Blast, Wail of Doom
6th: Resonating Agony, Dirge

[Feint's End]

OK a few general things.

Badge of valor + inspirational boost add another 2 for inspire courage. With the base 4 of a bard + this 2 + song of the heart you get to 7 .... now use words of creation to double that (+14 to hit and damage for everyone in your group. The great thing is that doesn't take a lot of investment so you can still be a great caster.

It's not that important to have that many bard levels so why not go sublime chord 2 sometimes in between and then just continue progressing the prc while advancing sublime chord casting instead of bard casting? That way you will get 9th level spells.
you will lose some inspire courage but with above mentioned combo your bonus will still be high enough (+10 most likely). And instead you get 9th level spells and access to the sorcerer/wizard list.

[Socratov]

I was browsing through the Bard Spell List and I noticed a few Sonic spells which I quite liked. The first one was Creaking Cacophony which can really boost Sonic Damage. The others where Painful Echoes + Deafening Blast + Resonating Agony, because I rather like spells with build in synergy. Then I remembered the Lyric Thaumaturge "Sonic Might" ability and an image popped in my head. A Dwarf Bard dealing damage using the sound of her voice. Her main perform skill would be Perform (Sing), with the singing style being Opera. Imagine a Valkyrie from a Wagner opera as a Dwarf and that's basically the image I got in my head. I would like to finish the build by selecting some more Spells and perfecting the feat selection but I'm not sure what would be good. I limited the levels of Lyric Thaumaturge to 5 so that I can still get the Inspire Courage of a 20th level bard when using a Vest of Legend. When it comes to feats, Melodic Casting and Song of the Heart are obvious, Versatile Spellcaster seems like a safe bet and Clap of Thunder allows me to deal Sonic Damage without using Spells but I'm not sure if Spell Focus is worth it.

Any suggestions on good spells and feats?


Level Progression
Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 5 / Bard +9 (15)

Feats:
1. Melodic Casting
3. Versatile Spellcaster
6. Spell Focus (Evocation)????
6b. Song of the Heart (Trading away Suggestion)
8. Captivating Melody (Lyric Thaumaturge Bonus Feat)
9. Clap of Thunder
12. Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)???
15. ???
18. ???


Spell List
1st: Inspirational Boost, Joyful Noise
2nd: Painful Echoes, Sonic Weapon (to use on an Ally's Weapon)
3rd: Deafening Blast, Creaking Cacophony
4th: Shout
5th: Channeled Sound Blast, Wail of Doom
6th: Resonating Agony, Dirge

If you want more Lyric Thaumaturge without losing IC then you would do well to look at Chaos Music (it's in dragon somewhere) that raises your effective bardlevel for the purpose of bardic music with 4, though without going past your total hitdice. So with this feat you can add 4 more levels of LT. Also I'd lose Clap of Thunder (max level is 6 which at high level isn't as impressive), and instead get 1 metamagic feat (like empower or heighten if you are really feeling screwwy), get Energy Substitution (electricity) (for when stuff is immune to sonic) and then get Born of the three thunders.


When you cast a spell with either the electricity descriptor or the sonic descriptor that deals hit point damage, you can declare that spell to be a spell of the three thunders, with half its damage dealt as electricity damage and half dealt as sonic damage. In addition, the spell concludes with a mighty thunderclap that stuns all creatures that take damage from the spell for 1 round unless they succeed on a Fortitude save, then knocks stunned creatures prone unless they succeed on a Reflex save (both saves at the same DC as the base spell). Channeling the three thunders is costly, though, and you are automatically dazed for 1 round after doing so. A three thunders spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. In addition, its descriptor changes to include both energy types--for example, a lightning bolt of the three thunders is an evocation [electricity, sonic] spell. It may seem like a costly investment, but it's glorious. It will turn you into Lightning McThunder O'Awesome.

Also, I'd lose the dwarf, and instead go human for the extra feat (get some metamagic feat?) and for avoiding the CHA penalty. Good luck!

[A.A.King]

OK a few general things.

Badge of valor + inspirational boost add another 2 for inspire courage. With the base 4 of a bard + this 2 + song of the heart you get to 7 .... now use words of creation to double that (+14 to hit and damage for everyone in your group. The great thing is that doesn't take a lot of investment so you can still be a great caster.

It's not that important to have that many bard levels so why not go sublime chord 2 sometimes in between and then just continue progressing the prc while advancing sublime chord casting instead of bard casting? That way you will get 9th level spells.
you will lose some inspire courage but with above mentioned combo your bonus will still be high enough (+10 most likely). And instead you get 9th level spells and access to the sorcerer/wizard list.
I'm not a fan of Sublime Chord and would prefer to keep it out of this particular build, same goes for Words of Creation. If I wanted to do Sublime Chord I would also have to add Virtuoso to the build because Lyric Thaumaturge only advances Bard Casting which would result in me not getting 9s anyway OR I would have to process Sublime Chord for 9 levels losing 5 uses of Bardic Music (which are very precious to me because of "Sonic Might")

Inspiration Boost is already on my Spell list and the character would definitely have a Badge of Valor as well but Words of Creation is an Exalted Feat and therefor doesn't fit with the character.


If you want more Lyric Thaumaturge without losing IC then you would do well to look at Chaos Music (it's in dragon somewhere) that raises your effective bardlevel for the purpose of bardic music with 4, though without going past your total hitdice. So with this feat you can add 4 more levels of LT. Also I'd lose Clap of Thunder (max level is 6 which at high level isn't as impressive), and instead get 1 metamagic feat (like empower or heighten if you are really feeling screwwy), get Energy Substitution (electricity) (for when stuff is immune to sonic) and then get Born of the three thunders.

It may seem like a costly investment, but it's glorious. It will turn you into Lightning McThunder O'Awesome.

Also, I'd lose the dwarf, and instead go human for the extra feat (get some metamagic feat?) and for avoiding the CHA penalty. Good luck!

Chaos Music is definitely nice and something to consider (Probably going Bard 6 / LT 5 / Bard +3 (9 for Inspire Greatness) / LT +4 (9) / Bard + 2 (11) )
The Dwarf is a must, chosen for pure fluff reasons but I really think it fits. However I avoid the CHA penalty by going either Dream Dwarf or Gold Dwarf (changing it to a DEX penalty)

As to your feat suggestion:
I like "Born of Three Thunders" but since bards are spontaneous casters wouldn't both "Energy Substitution" and "Born of Three Thunders" change the casting time of each of my normally Standard Action Spells to Full-Round Action Spells, hugely decreasing my effectiveness in combat?
Also, I realize that 6d6 at High Level isn't much, but with "Creaking Cacophony" that becauses 6d6 *1.5 or simply 9d6 (unless the opponents are immune) making it a bit more useful. I also like it because it is an easy way to produce Sonic Damage without using a Spell Slot, since bards don't get nearly enough Spell Slots. I'm considering your suggestions to drop it, but I'm not quite sold yet.

[Feint's End]

OK I can understand your motives.

As for the time increase in metamagic. You could pick rapid metamagic at Level 9. This feat enables you to apply metamagic without increasing cast time as a spontaneous caster. Only prerequisites are 12 ranks in spellcraft and the ability to spontaneously cast spells.

[Socratov]

I'm not a fan of Sublime Chord and would prefer to keep it out of this particular build, same goes for Words of Creation. If I wanted to do Sublime Chord I would also have to add Virtuoso to the build because Lyric Thaumaturge only advances Bard Casting which would result in me not getting 9s anyway OR I would have to process Sublime Chord for 9 levels losing 5 uses of Bardic Music (which are very precious to me because of "Sonic Might")

Inspiration Boost is already on my Spell list and the character would definitely have a Badge of Valor as well but Words of Creation is an Exalted Feat and therefor doesn't fit with the character.



Chaos Music is definitely nice and something to consider (Probably going Bard 6 / LT 5 / Bard +3 (9 for Inspire Greatness) / LT +4 (9) / Bard + 2 (11) )
The Dwarf is a must, chosen for pure fluff reasons but I really think it fits. However I avoid the CHA penalty by going either Dream Dwarf or Gold Dwarf (changing it to a DEX penalty)

As to your feat suggestion:
I like "Born of Three Thunders" but since bards are spontaneous casters wouldn't both "Energy Substitution" and "Born of Three Thunders" change the casting time of each of my normally Standard Action Spells to Full-Round Action Spells, hugely decreasing my effectiveness in combat?
Also, I realize that 6d6 at High Level isn't much, but with "Creaking Cacophony" that becauses 6d6 *1.5 or simply 9d6 (unless the opponents are immune) making it a bit more useful. I also like it because it is an easy way to produce Sonic Damage without using a Spell Slot, since bards don't get nearly enough Spell Slots. I'm considering your suggestions to drop it, but I'm not quite sold yet.

Well, what Feint's End said, plus, born of Three Thunders is a free metamagic and you don't need to use Energy Substitution in conjuction wiht it. It's purely that when you cast a spell with the [electricity] and/or [sonic] descriptor that you can opt to activate the Born of Three Thunders feat, taking some non-lethal damage and going all stunlock on everyone's asses as well as changing the damage to 50/50 [sonic]/[electricity]. the hint is in the first sentence of the feat:

When you cast a spell with either the electricity descriptor or the sonic descriptor that deals hit point damage, you can declare that spell to be a spell of the three thunders, with half its damage dealt as electricity damage and half dealt as sonic damage. (emphasis mine) It seems not an application of metamagic, but instead a declaration. I'd say you nee dto discuss it with the DM. In any way it would become 1 full round regardless of whatever metamagic you would apply. Besides you can't quicken anyway, so unless you break the action economy open through spellmatrix and such and want to deal damage you will go for metamagic like Twinned, Repeating, etc. AS it stands BoTT is definitely worth it, whether you need a fullround action for it or not.

On the subject of damage of your Clap of Thunder, other spells are stronger and at high level 9d6 is not very interesting. IN stead BoTT grants a statuseffect (stun is very strong), scales with the spell selected (maybe add some heighten?) and is pumpable as hard with Creaking Cacaphony as well as CoT.

On Class progression, I have a propositions for you: IC is nice and all, but how about taking 2 levels of SC and advancing that with the rest of LT (going bard 8/LT 2/SC 2/LT8), ending up (with Chaos music and Vest of Legends) as a lvl 17 bard (music wise), with casting and the ability to take precedence of bard spells over Sorc Wiz, but the ability to still take them (and get higher spellslots so you can use metamagic) If you can can fit take Metamagic Song so you can boost spells into high heaven and watch the world shatter at your feet while singing a high C at such a volume that people's eardrums will burst with a smile on their lips.

Too bad you really want to be dwarf though, but it's your character, so go nuts :smallamused:

Also, if you watn more slots, why not take Lyric Spell? You get to burn bardic music to cast spells instead of spellslots.

[A.A.King]

Well, what Feint's End said, plus, born of Three Thunders is a free metamagic and you don't need to use Energy Substitution in conjuction wiht it. It's purely that when you cast a spell with the [electricity] and/or [sonic] descriptor that you can opt to activate the Born of Three Thunders feat, taking some non-lethal damage and going all stunlock on everyone's asses as well as changing the damage to 50/50 [sonic]/[electricity]. the hint is in the first sentence of the feat:
(emphasis mine) It seems not an application of metamagic, but instead a declaration. I'd say you nee dto discuss it with the DM. In any way it would become 1 full round regardless of whatever metamagic you would apply. Besides you can't quicken anyway, so unless you break the action economy open through spellmatrix and such and want to deal damage you will go for metamagic like Twinned, Repeating, etc. AS it stands BoTT is definitely worth it, whether you need a fullround action for it or not. On the subject of damage of your Clap of Thunder, other spells are stronger and at high level 9d6 is not very interesting. IN stead BoTT grants a statuseffect (stun is very strong), scales with the spell selected (maybe add some heighten?) and is pumpable as hard with Creaking Cacaphony as well as CoT.

I guess being able to do 2 types of Energy Damage is better then just one. I also found out I misunderstood what "fullround casting" meant (I thought it was like with a Summon spell), making the idea of metamagic a lot less bad. I also rather liked the Clap of Thunder feat but I realize it would be needlessly gimping an already weaker concept (Dwarf Bard and Bard Blaster is making it difficult enough I suppose).

That would make the current feat Selection look like this: (haven't changed anything else about the build)
1. Melodic Casting
3. Heighten Spell
6. Energy Substitution
6b. Song of the Heart (still trading away Suggestion)
8. Captivating Melody (still the Bonus feat)
9. Born of the Three Thunders
12. Spell Focus (Evocation)
15. Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
18. Lyric Spell

Heighten Spell seems like the obvious Metamagic feat for this build, since it has some synergy with "Sonic Might". Still not entirely sure about the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats.


On Class progression, I have a propositions for you: IC is nice and all, but how about taking 2 levels of SC and advancing that with the rest of LT (going bard 8/LT 2/SC 2/LT8), ending up (with Chaos music and Vest of Legends) as a lvl 17 bard (music wise), with casting and the ability to take precedence of bard spells over Sorc Wiz, but the ability to still take them (and get higher spellslots so you can use metamagic) If you can can fit take Metamagic Song so you can boost spells into high heaven and watch the world shatter at your feet while singing a high C at such a volume that people's eardrums will burst with a smile on their lips.

The problem with Sublime Chord, apart from the general feel of the class and the skill tax, is the fact that Lyric Thaumaturge won't progress SC casting, since Lyric Thaumaturge specifically progresses Bard Casting.


Also, if you watn more slots, why not take Lyric Spell? You get to burn bardic music to cast spells instead of spellslots.
Lyric Spell seems like a nice late level feat and a better choise then Versaitile Spellcaster at that point. 7 uses of Bardic Music are probably cheaper then 2 5th-level slots

[Socratov]

Ah, missed the specific bard spell advancement. And if you really want to take advantage of Lyrical spell, lose the (greater) Spell Focus (Evocation), get Dragon Song instead (1 feat for +2 is reasonable, gives +2 perform as well) and take Extra Music. The last one allows you +4 bardic Music uses per day, to use as you see fit. Take Lyric Spell at 15 and Extra Music at 18 and you're set to pump out a lot of fun things.

[Feint's End]

Born of the Three Thunders is just that good. Stun for no level in spellincrease and 2 kinds of energy damage is great.

Honestly if I were you I'd pick Rapid Metamagic instead of Spellfocus. +1 on save dcs is nice but being able to use Born of the Three Thunders on every blast and still having the option to move is just much better. If you don't have it you will essentially be limited to blast+cc or blast+move. If you have Rapid Metamagic you can blast+cc+move or spend the moveaction in other useful ways.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Going to agree that Born of the Three Thunders is the way to go here, use it with Sonic Weapon and Dirge and other spells so that every time they deal damage the target must make a Fort save vs stun and a Reflex save vs being knocked prone.

Grab Quick Recovery in Lords of Madness so the Daze only costs you a move action instead of an entire round.

[Socratov]

Born of the Three Thunders is just that good. Stun for no level in spellincrease and 2 kinds of energy damage is great.

Honestly if I were you I'd pick Rapid Metamagic instead of Spellfocus. +1 on save dcs is nice but being able to use Born of the Three Thunders on every blast and still having the option to move is just much better. If you don't have it you will essentially be limited to blast+cc or blast+move. If you have Rapid Metamagic you can blast+cc+move or spend the moveaction in other useful ways.

rapid is nice, but if you position yourself in a tactical way you don't exactly need it. You do want to raise the DC though so you can raise the Stun DC. Greater Spellfocus is nice and all, but the prerequisite (spellfocus) becomes useless when you take GSP and only gives (before you take GSP) +1. Dragon song is more useful then thatDisregard, please take another Extra music for more spells per day (or take Metamagic Song to mitigate Heighten). Coupled with heighten your Cacaphonic burst becomes: Heightened (+1), Born of Three Thunders (half electric, half sonic), Sonic Might'd, Captivating Melody'd, Creaking Cacaphony'd Cacaphonic Burst (cl>=15)= on average: 84 [sonic] and 21 [electric] (total 105) with a stun DC (fort save) of (assuming pumping Cha to at least 22+ cha item of +6 @ lvl 20 leaves a 28): 10+6(spell level)+9(Cha mod)+2(beat dc 21 perform check)= DC 27 For everyone in a 20ft. radius spread. Long Range. That is pretty decent. Nowhere near Mailman good, but definitely not bad.

[A.A.King]

Ah, missed the specific bard spell advancement. And if you really want to take advantage of Lyrical spell, lose the (greater) Spell Focus (Evocation), get Dragon Song instead (1 feat for +2 is reasonable, gives +2 perform as well) and take Extra Music. The last one allows you +4 bardic Music uses per day, to use as you see fit. Take Lyric Spell at 15 and Extra Music at 18 and you're set to pump out a lot of fun things.
Dragonsong only increases the Save DC of Mind-Affecting affects, so would only aid Wail of Doom
Extra Music is an option, but I think I'll take a Consisted +1 on the Save DC of my Spells


Born of the Three Thunders is just that good. Stun for no level in spellincrease and 2 kinds of energy damage is great.

Honestly if I were you I'd pick Rapid Metamagic instead of Spellfocus. +1 on save dcs is nice but being able to use Born of the Three Thunders on every blast and still having the option to move is just much better. If you don't have it you will essentially be limited to blast+cc or blast+move. If you have Rapid Metamagic you can blast+cc+move or spend the moveaction in other useful ways.

Hmmm I guess you're right. My logic is that a higher Save DC for my Evocation Spell helps Born of the Three Thunders by making it more likely that my opponent's will fail both their Fortitude Save and their Reflex save. However I have very little experience with Save DCs and spells in particular so I don't know how much effect a +1 from both Greater & Normal Spell Focus has at level 15.


Going to agree that Born of the Three Thunders is the way to go here, use it with Sonic Weapon and Dirge and other spells so that every time they deal damage the target must make a Fort save vs stun and a Reflex save vs being knocked prone.

Grab Quick Recovery in Lords of Madness so the Daze only costs you a move action instead of an entire round.

I don't really agree with your reading of Born of the Three Thunders. The reading I found on previous topics discussing the feat is that the saves only come at the end of the spells duration or, if the spell only deals damage ones but has a longer duration, after all the damage has been dealt. It wouldn't work with spells like Sonic Weapon in the way you describe

I'm also in doubt about the usefulness of "Quick Recovery". At level 12 (when I get Quick Recovery) my Will Save would be +9 and I probably won't have the a Wisdom modifier higher then 0. The Save DC of Quick Recovery would be something like 10 + 6 (1/2 * Caster Level)) + 5 (Or more if higher Charisma Modifier) = 21. This would mean I'd need to roll a 12 on my Will Save to be able to actually use Quick Recovery.

Edit:

rapid is nice, but if you position yourself in a tactical way you don't exactly need it. You do want to raise the DC though so you can raise the Stun DC. Greater Spellfocus is nice and all, but the prerequisite (spellfocus) becomes useless when you take GSP and only gives (before you take GSP) +1. Dragon song is more useful then thatDisregard, please take another Extra music for more spells per day (or take Metamagic Song to mitigate Heighten). Coupled with heighten your Cacaphonic burst becomes: Heightened (+1), Born of Three Thunders (half electric, half sonic), Sonic Might'd, Captivating Melody'd, Creaking Cacaphony'd Cacaphonic Burst (cl>=15)= on average: 84 [sonic] and 21 [electric] (total 105) with a stun DC (fort save) of (assuming pumping Cha to at least 22+ cha item of +6 @ lvl 20 leaves a 28): 10+6(spell level)+9(Cha mod)+2(beat dc 21 perform check)= DC 27 For everyone in a 20ft. radius spread. Long Range. That is pretty decent. Nowhere near Mailman good, but definitely not bad.

Lyric Spell is nice but I see it mainly as a way to draw out that one extra Spell when you really need to. Taking Extra Music twice gives me 8 extra uses, 7 of which give me just one extra 6th level spell a day.
I also don't see how Spell Focus becomes useless when you take Greater Spell Focus. Greater Spell Focus points out that both stack so having both gives you a +2. You might be looking at the 3.0 version.

Also, your math is a bit of. I can't use Captivating Melody on Cacophonic Burst, Captivating Melody only works on Enchantment and Illusion Spells.

[Socratov]

A. A. King: the versions I read (PHB pg. 100) state that spellfocus grants a +1 to DC's of the chosen spellschool, And Greater Spellfocus (PHB) grants another cumulative +1. The Tome and Blood version grants +4, explicitly not stacking with Spellfocus.

I think that burning 2 feats on the already starved casting bard for a measly +2 DC's on evocation spells, is a bit wasteful. I'd rather get Metamagic Song, Lyric Spell and/or Extra music (pick 2). The validity of extra music is you can use it to power your complete bardness: Bard songs, LT Captivating Melodyu and Sonic Might and spells. Also, if you are going to dump suggestion for SotH, better dump Fascinate as well and grab Healing Hymn for some nightly healing. For this build It's not really imporetant to choose between Bardic Knowledge and Bardic Knack (espcially considering you don't have room for Jack of All Trades), Oh, and my math isindeed off. Still, DC 25 to hit enemies even with a good fortsave is a bit of a challenge. Besides, take Deafening Blast instead to target willsave for 1 round, and continue with Born of Three Thunders and Cacaphonic Burst to round out the stunlock and damage. You could also opt to drop the IC optimisation and keep Fascinate and Suggestion (so you can leave those off your spells known) and go 2 mid/high level damage spells, the rest into illusion and throw around status effects. Perform Singing isn't great for IC optimisation anyway :smallamused:, maybe buff with Sonic Weapon on your ally (Sonic Might'd of course). that could become rather scary: Think abou tit, while you are trying to hack the opposition to peices some dwarven chick dressed as a valkyrie sings an aria stunning you with spells, beating you up with sound and having her ally beat the living daylights out of you while his swordblows hit like trucks.

[A.A.King]

A. A. King: the versions I read (PHB pg. 100) state that spellfocus grants a +1 to DC's of the chosen spellschool, And Greater Spellfocus (PHB) grants another cumulative +1. The Tome and Blood version grants +4, explicitly not stacking with Spellfocus.

Maybe I misunderstood something, but you said "Greater Spellfocus is nice and all, but the prerequisite (spellfocus) becomes useless when you take GSP and only gives (before you take GSP) +1".
I don't quite follow how Spellfocus becomes useless.


I think that burning 2 feats on the already starved casting bard for a measly +2 DC's on evocation spells, is a bit wasteful. I'd rather get Metamagic Song, Lyric Spell and/or Extra music (pick 2). The validity of extra music is you can use it to power your complete bardness: Bard songs, LT Captivating Melodyu and Sonic Might and spells. Also, if you are going to dump suggestion for SotH, better dump Fascinate as well and grab Healing Hymn for some nightly healing. For this build It's not really imporetant to choose between Bardic Knowledge and Bardic Knack (espcially considering you don't have room for Jack of All Trades), Oh, and my math isindeed off. Still, DC 25 to hit enemies even with a good fortsave is a bit of a challenge. Besides, take Deafening Blast instead to target willsave for 1 round, and continue with Born of Three Thunders and Cacaphonic Burst to round out the stunlock and damage. You could also opt to drop the IC optimisation and keep Fascinate and Suggestion (so you can leave those off your spells known) and go 2 mid/high level damage spells, the rest into illusion and throw around status effects. Perform Singing isn't great for IC optimisation anyway :smallamused:, maybe buff with Sonic Weapon on your ally (Sonic Might'd of course). that could become rather scary: Think abou tit, while you are trying to hack the opposition to peices some dwarven chick dressed as a valkyrie sings an aria stunning you with spells, beating you up with sound and having her ally beat the living daylights out of you while his swordblows hit like trucks.

I agree that two feats this relatively late in the game for a measly +2 feels like rather a waste. However, there is the fact that probably a lot of saves would have to be made when considering spells like "Resonating Agony" and "Painful Echoes" which require a save each round, so there would be enough times where the +2 helped. Still, I would like some more interesting feats that seemingly easily forgotten DC+1s. Metamagic Song and Extra Music don't feel like they are it though (Lyric Spell is currently already my 18th level feat). With Inspire Courage & Sonic Might and the occasional Lyric Spell I figure I'd burn through my Bardic Musics quick enough. I suppose Metamagic Song might be a way to change all my 5th level slots in 6th level slots for the price of 1 BM each but for now I'm still hoping on something better then either Spell Focus or Extra Music

[Socratov]

Maybe I misunderstood something, but you said "Greater Spellfocus is nice and all, but the prerequisite (spellfocus) becomes useless when you take GSP and only gives (before you take GSP) +1".
I don't quite follow how Spellfocus becomes useless.
well, assuming you want the most bang for your buck, you'd want the tome and blood version for the +4. that, however, make the SF feat useless. If you can't go for the T&B version then it's not exactly useless, but underwhelming



I agree that two feats this relatively late in the game for a measly +2 feels like rather a waste. However, there is the fact that probably a lot of saves would have to be made when considering spells like "Resonating Agony" and "Painful Echoes" which require a save each round, so there would be enough times where the +2 helped.

Still, I would like some more interesting feats that seemingly easily forgotten DC+1s. Metamagic Song and Extra Music don't feel like they are it though (Lyric Spell is currently already my 18th level feat). With Inspire Courage & Sonic Might and the occasional Lyric Spell I figure I'd burn through my Bardic Musics quick enough. I suppose Metamagic Song might be a way to change all my 5th level slots in 6th level slots for the price of 1 BM each but for now I'm still hoping on something better then either Spell Focus or Extra Music

It helps, yes, but technically so does toughness in keeping you alive with 3 extra hitpoints. That doesn't make it a worthwhile option. If you want to be good at forcing saves at high level, play a wizard/sorcerer (or Sublime Chord) instead. The good thing about metamagic song with heighten is that you could potentially burn all your bardic music to heighten a spell to lvl 9, yet bring it down to it's original level. Heighten is that good. If you do that with the repeating save spells then you are surely going to wreak havoc. This is where the trio of Lyric Spell, Metamagic Song and Extra Music comes in. Lyric spell is like a turbo (generating extra power though BM), Metamagic Song is a supercharger (makes them hit harder) and Extra Music is the enlargement of the gas tank. EM is basically Font of Inspiration for bards. That makes the Heighten+MS+EM combo significantly better then the SF+GSF combo in terms of DC boosters, even though it's limited in uses. But at least you can set the dial for what you need, or replace sonic with some other element if you need it because the DM is trowing sonic immune enemies at you, for only the cost of a BM use.