Is anyone else loving Thaumaturgy?

[pwykersotz]

I welcome our new Prestidigitation offshoot with open arms. Voice of god? Check. The ground quaking at your approach? Check. Eyes blazing with holy fire? Check.

I know it has limited mechanical advantage, as no skill checks are called out, but it's a lovely little RP gem for the representatives of deities. I look forward to using it. Anyone else? :smallbiggrin:

[Sartharina]

Definitely me. And, it's extra awesome on a Dwarf!

[rlc]

Definitely some cool stuff that should at least give advantage for certain checks.

[Yuki Akuma]

My first character will be a High Elf Cleric with both Thaumaturgy and Prestidigitation.

I will be the master of infinite, worthless magical effects.

[Palegreenpants]

Yup, its a cool spell. One of my players ran a Bard who used it (Divine Initiate feat). He scared the crisps out of everyone, even party members. He made ghostly violin music, echoing war-drums from the depths of the underworld, and other terrible stuff, most of which the other players thought was real.

[Thrudd]

My first character will be a High Elf Cleric with both Thaumaturgy and Prestidigitation.

I will be the master of infinite, worthless magical effects.

You can be the D&D equilavent of G.O.B from "Arrested Development". Show up with your own theme music everywhere you go ("The Final Countdown" by Europe), and shoot smoke and sparks or pennies out of your sleeves and say "Magic!"

[Chaosvii7]

My first character will be a High Elf Cleric with both Thaumaturgy and Prestidigitation.

I will be the master of infinite, worthless magical effects.

If both Druidcraft and the Druidic Initiate Feat make it into the final product, make sure you pick the feat up and score 3/3 with practical parlor tricks.

[Yorrin]

If both Druidcraft and the Druidic Initiate Feat make it into the final product, make sure you pick the feat up and score 3/3 with practical parlor tricks.

This gives me a hilarious idea for a character. Straight Rogue with all three initiate feats and expertise in Deception. He pretends to be a "real" caster and uses his various cantrips constantly. With the Wizard one he can pick up Find Familiar (if it's still around) to further aid in his shenanigans (and to help him bluff some divinations, if you can still see out of your familiar's eyes).

[Sartharina]

The more I think about it, thoguh.... Thaumaturgy should NOT be a cantrip every cleric picks up immediately. Unlike Presdigitation, which is largely a tiny toolbox of magic effects, Thaumaturgy is a big bunch of flashy cosmetic/prestigious stuff.

Being able to make your eyes glow, voice boom, ground shake, and fires blaze is awesome for a high-level cleric to do at will. It just gets obnoxious when every cleric can do it all day long.

[Anubis Dread]

To be fair, clerics by themselves are pretty special. In the same way that the average fighter is ten times stronger than a regular schmuck with a sword even at low levels, a low level cleric is a rare conduit of the gods. From the way they described it, it would seem likely that most small settlements would only have about one cleric in it, even if they had a bunch of priests, while larger settlements would only have a few. So 'all clerics can do it' is less 'everyone can do it' and more 'some heads of temples and extremely high ranking religious members can do it'.

Of course since 'all PC clerics can do it' it may be over-represented, but even a 1st level PC is supposed to be at least somewhat of a bad ass. They might as well have the booming voice and flaming eyes to go with it.

[Particle_Man]

This gives me a hilarious idea for a character. Straight Rogue with all three initiate feats and expertise in Deception. He pretends to be a "real" caster and uses his various cantrips constantly. With the Wizard one he can pick up Find Familiar (if it's still around) to further aid in his shenanigans (and to help him bluff some divinations, if you can still see out of your familiar's eyes).

Mind you, a real cleric with the criminal background might also work. Start as a con artist, and then a god chooses you! Now what do you do? Use these newly discovered divine powers to better your con artistry, or try to discover if there is a higher purpose to all this?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The more I think about it, thoguh.... Thaumaturgy should NOT be a cantrip every cleric picks up immediately. Unlike Presdigitation, which is largely a tiny toolbox of magic effects, Thaumaturgy is a big bunch of flashy cosmetic/prestigious stuff.

Being able to make your eyes glow, voice boom, ground shake, and fires blaze is awesome for a high-level cleric to do at will. It just gets obnoxious when every cleric can do it all day long.

So what is the logic behind a arcane caster can do minor spell tricks all day long but if you are a divine caster then you can't do minor little spell tricks. That just doesn't make sense on any level.

This spell is another houserule I've seen, putting Presdigitation on the cleric spell list.

[1337 b4k4]

So what is the logic behind a arcane caster can do minor spell tricks all day long but if you are a divine caster then you can't do minor little spell tricks. That just doesn't make sense on any level.

This spell is another houserule I've seen, putting Presdigitation on the cleric spell list.

One possibility:

Clerics are granted their powers / spells from the gods themselves, the gods grant or deny as they see fit. Barring a need (or vanity) the gods see little need for enabling their clerics to pimp their frocks.

Wizards on the other hand learn to manipulate their natural magical energies. Being this close to the raw magical power in the world means they have a near limitless access to minor amounts of power.

Edit
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I'm also a big fan of the idea that being that close to magic fundamentally alters and changes you. I often like to ask my wizard players to pick a magical "tell" that is ever present, whether it's small bit of magic effects going off around them, or an unnatural sheen to the skin etc. Something that marks them as wizards, for all the good and bad that that entails.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

One possibility:

Clerics are granted their powers / spells from the gods themselves, the gods grant or deny as they see fit. Barring a need (or vanity) the gods see little need for enabling their clerics to pimp their frocks.

Wizards on the other hand learn to manipulate their natural magical energies. Being this close to the raw magical power in the world means they have a near limitless access to minor amounts of power.

Edit
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I'm also a big fan of the idea that being that close to magic fundamentally alters and changes you. I often like to ask my wizard players to pick a magical "tell" that is ever present, whether it's small bit of magic effects going off around them, or an unnatural sheen to the skin etc. Something that marks them as wizards, for all the good and bad that that entails.


I get that gods can deny spells, however there are a multitude of reasons why a cleric would have this spell. I can't believe that any one god would never have a reason for a cleric to have that spell. Be it for recruiting new church members or having it be a tell on the battle field (oh dang, that's Her/His follower!) I just can't see why any god would perma ban it.

I could see each god having the spell limited in some way. A god of nature might not like that you are altering yourself with the glowing eyes and thus doesn't allow that option within the spell... But that gos may love the ground shaking because it reminds enemies that natural effects such as earth quakes are top notch powerful.

I prefer to give players options and let them go from there and explain through RP/Background why things work rather than confining them to how I think things should work.

Other things...

Ooo, you are starting to sound like 3.5 Psionics and how their powers work. Watch out people may lose their minds :smalltongue:.

I actually love that idea though and will provably implement it.

[rlc]

My first character will be a High Elf Cleric with both Thaumaturgy and Prestidigitation.

I will be the master of infinite, worthless magical effects.

Or play a tiefling wizard.

[Yuki Akuma]

Or play a tiefling wizard.

Yes thank you the Tiefling wasn't revealed when I posted that a week ago.

[Sartharina]

So what is the logic behind a arcane caster can do minor spell tricks all day long but if you are a divine caster then you can't do minor little spell tricks. That just doesn't make sense on any level.

This spell is another houserule I've seen, putting Presdigitation on the cleric spell list.The arcane caster's minor spell tricks usually have more utility than flash about them (And the flash they do come from looks like cheap parlor tricks). The cleric version is more flash over substance, and it's BIG flash. They certainly should get the power - but it makes it more 'special' if it's not one of the starting cleric cantrips. The at-will glowing eyes, trembling earth, booming voice, blazing lights, etc. feel like a reward for reaching a higher level of prestige and power. I'm not saying they shouldn't be a cantrip... but some cantrips might be enriched if they had a level requirement attached to them.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The arcane caster's minor spell tricks usually have more utility than flash about them (And the flash they do come from looks like cheap parlor tricks). The cleric version is more flash over substance, and it's BIG flash. They certainly should get the power - but it makes it more 'special' if it's not one of the starting cleric cantrips. The at-will glowing eyes, trembling earth, booming voice, blazing lights, etc. feel like a reward for reaching a higher level of prestige and power. I'm not saying they shouldn't be a cantrip... but some cantrips might be enriched if they had a level requirement attached to them.


You didn't answer the question.

Why can arcane magic do something divine magic can't? Hell depending on the setting all magic is from one place and the difference is divine magic has a pit stop at a deity.

I'm not saying all the time in every setting but if X full caster can make a spell then why can't Y full caster replicate that spell in some way?

Note: I hate spell lists being divided up by Arcane/Divine. I also like the 3.5 Sorcerer making any spell he or she has seen or been around for a while.

[Sartharina]

Because, outside of the few settings you described that I've NEVER seen ever endorsed by D&D, divine and arcane magic are inherently different, with just a few pieces of overlap.

The only things full casters have in common is the casting framework.

[pwykersotz]

You didn't answer the question.

Why can arcane magic do something divine magic can't? Hell depending on the setting all magic is from one place and the difference is divine magic has a pit stop at a deity.

I'm not saying all the time in every setting but if X full caster can make a spell then why can't Y full caster replicate that spell in some way?

Note: I hate spell lists being divided up by Arcane/Divine. I also like the 3.5 Sorcerer making any spell he or she has seen or been around for a while.

Because limited spell lists and class features keep classes fulfilling a thematic role. For better or worse, that's the system. Out of curiosity, do you like GURPS? Near infinite choices available to all players, never constrained to choose what they want?

[WickerNipple]

The arcane caster's minor spell tricks usually have more utility than flash about them (And the flash they do come from looks like cheap parlor tricks). The cleric version is more flash over substance, and it's BIG flash.

I don't get it. Other than the flavor text telling you these things are miracles, they're mostly just lvl 0 illusions. They ARE just cheap parlor tricks.

Almost every single thing Thaumaturgy does can be created by just the first bullet point of Prestigation.

Booming Voice = Instantaneous Sensory Effect
Mess with Flames = Instantaneous Sensory Effect
Harmless Tremors = Instantaneous Sensory Effect
Instantaneous Sound = Instantaneous Sensory Effect
Open close unlock door --Instantaneous Sensory Effect (if a gust of wind will do)
Alter Eyes= Instantaneous Sensory Effect

And of course Presigation lasts an hour, not one minute.

I suppose Thaumaturgy might offer you advantage in a social situation (depending on DM fiat) the first time someone sees you do it... but beyond that it seems rather useless.

[Tholomyes]

I don't get it.

Almost every single thing Thaumaturgy does can be created by just the first bullet point of Prestigation.

Booming Voice = Instantaneous Sensory Effect
Mess with Flames = Instantaneous Sensory Effect
Harmless Tremors = Instantaneous Sensory Effect
Instantaneous Sound = Instantaneous Sensory Effect
Open close unlock door --Instantaneous Sensory Effect (if a gust of wind will do)
Alter Eyes= Instantaneous Sensory Effect

And of course Presigation lasts an hour, not one minute.

I suppose Thaumaturgy might offer you advantage in a social situation (depending on DM fiat) the first time someone sees you do it... but beyond that it seems rather useless.Instantaneous sensory effect means it just happens in the action taken to cast it. Like making a flash of light, or a single crack of thunder. The Instantaneous sound is really the only thing that can be directly replicated by Prestidigitation. I do agree, however, that it's pretty underwhelming

[WickerNipple]

Instantaneous sensory effect means it just happens in the action taken to cast it. Like making a flash of light, or a single crack of thunder. The Instantaneous sound is really the only thing that can be directly replicated by Prestidigitation. I do agree, however, that it's pretty underwhelming

Oh I see, Prest would just make someone's eyes change once or voice boom once instead of for a full minute. Fair enough, that's a minor but valid distinction.

Still don't get why it's impressive or anything other than a parlor trick.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Because limited spell lists and class features keep classes fulfilling a thematic role. For better or worse, that's the system. Out of curiosity, do you like GURPS? Near infinite choices available to all players, never constrained to choose what they want?

I'm a fan of theme spell lists, however with how arcane and divine magic has always been fluffed (they are the same thing) it makes no sense that say... A necromancy arcane caster x and a necromancy divine caster y wouldn't have access to the same spells only because they cast spells arcane or divine.

So say you have the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage who are arcane casters. They would each have their specialized list however, if you have a class called Divine Trickster that cast divine spells then there is no reason why a Beguiler could cast spell X but the Divine Trickster could not.

So with something like Thaumaturgy that is very very basic and very general, I'm not sure why one full caster can have a spell that does it while another full caster can't have a similar spell ONLY because one is arcane and the other is divine.

[pwykersotz]

I'm a fan of theme spell lists, however with how arcane and divine magic has always been fluffed (they are the same thing) it makes no sense that say... A necromancy arcane caster x and a necromancy divine caster y wouldn't have access to the same spells only because they cast spells arcane or divine.

So say you have the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage who are arcane casters. They would each have their specialized list however, if you have a class called Divine Trickster that cast divine spells then there is no reason why a Beguiler could cast spell X but the Divine Trickster could not.

So with something like Thaumaturgy that is very very basic and very general, I'm not sure why one full caster can have a spell that does it while another full caster can't have a similar spell ONLY because one is arcane and the other is divine.

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

I personally view Arcane/Divine as massively different. One is the echoes of power from the dawn of creation that flow through the universe, the other is the will of a god made manifest through a servant. One is minutely quantifiable, but something that always has more mysteries to explore. The other is sheer intent. What happens is the will of a being far beyond you and it may never be fathomed.

Not that it's the default, just how I've always run it.

Regarding Thaumaturgy though, it seems to come from cinematic interpretations of the difference between wizards like the Sorcerer's Apprentice and divine beings. You notice that in a movie, if an angel or powerful priest walks into a room, all the torches may suddenly be doused or lit, and the ground might tremble, causing the supports of buildings to shake. Castiel showing up for the first time in Supernatural isn't a bad example of stuff like this. The wizard is more likely to perform the mundane tasks described in Prestidigitation, such as causing dust devils to whisk away dirt.

You won't often see a priest flavoring his soup with divine magic (he'll use pepper :smalltongue:) or see a wizard cause the ground to tremble beneath his feet. It happens, just not as much in cultural representations of these archetypes. So if you're ignoring those, there's probably no good reason why both couldn't do those things.

[Psyren]

I welcome our new Prestidigitation offshoot with open arms. Voice of god? Check. The ground quaking at your approach? Check. Eyes blazing with holy fire? Check.

I know it has limited mechanical advantage, as no skill checks are called out, but it's a lovely little RP gem for the representatives of deities. I look forward to using it. Anyone else? :smallbiggrin:

Indeed, I think it's great. I've already made a PF orison for it.

[DarkKnightJin]

I welcome our new Prestidigitation offshoot with open arms. Voice of god? Check. The ground quaking at your approach? Check. Eyes blazing with holy fire? Check.

I know it has limited mechanical advantage, as no skill checks are called out, but it's a lovely little RP gem for the representatives of deities. I look forward to using it. Anyone else? :smallbiggrin:

Damnit, I'd just talked myself OUT of wanting to grab Thaumaturgy at 4th level Cleric, and snag Word of Radiance instead..
And now you guys are making me wanna grab Thaumaturgy instead. Again. Don't tempt me like that..

[KorvinStarmast]

This thread was begun in 2014 to praise Thaumaturgy; not {thread} Necromancy. :smallbiggrin: