Making paladins more awesome?

[Anlashok]

Paladins are thematically cool. They're hamstrung by an obnoxious code of conduct... and pay for it by being a pretty eh class.

Any tips on making them more badass and apropos without telling me to just refluff a cleric or play a crusader?

"homebrew" and "fixes" are welcome (for DMing advice) along with RAW legal stuff for playing as one.

[Blackhawk748]

Paladins can actually be pretty powerful with the right build, as for the Code, i always recommend writing your own for each paladin because the one they have in there is more advice than actual rules.

[Flashy]

I find it's fairly effective to compress it down into ten levels and turn it into a prestige class. Encourage anyone who wants to be a paladin to first take a few levels of knight and then shift into paladin once they qualify (I do something along the lines of BAB +5, like ten points in diplomacy, make contact with a good outsider/attract the attention of a non-evil deity).

It's not a perfect system, but I like it.

[AuraTwilight]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193554-Project-Heretica-not-just-a-Paladin-retooling My personal suggestion. One of the posts in the table of contents describes the author's reasoning for all his changes and less extreme alterations to the core Paladin class if a GM is intimidated.

[Karnith]

Paladins, despite being pretty meh by default, have a really high op-ceiling. You can reduce MAD with Serenity (from Dragon Compendium; makes Paladin class abilities based on Wisdom), pump spellcasting with Battle Blessing (Complete Champion; cast most Paladin spells as a swift action), Divine Metamagic, Mystic Fire Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051104a), and/or Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor; allows you to prepare and cast Wizard spells), enhance melee capabilities with Devotion or Divine feats (and, importantly, you have the otherwise-worthless Turn attempts to use them), go the supermount route, or ditch the mount with fun ACFs like Charging Smite (PHBII; deal extra damage when using Smite on a charge) or Underdark Knight (Complete Champion; gives you a bunch of abilities, including Earth Glide and Dimension Door, when underground).

Additionally, Paladins, like Rangers, benefit a lot from spells outside of Core. Many are good on their own, like Rhino's Rush (SpC; swift action casting time to double damage on a charge) or Knight's Move (PHBII; swift aciton teleport into a flanking position), and many otherwise-mediocre spells become much more palatable with Battle Blessing.

The A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376) is a pretty good example of an optimized Paladin.

[Flickerdart]

If you don't actually want any paladin class features and only want to write "paladin" on your sheet then the A-Game Paladin is an okay build.

Other than that, the Special Mount is a great opportunity to be useful. Take a look at the back of the DMG, which gives you options for alternate mounts and a guideline - you can pick anything vaguely mount-shaped that has a CR 3 lower than your paladin level, or 4 lower if it flies. That means that at level 6, you can have a Half-Celestial War Horse, which flies for 12 hours a day (suck it, wizard) and has better spells than you do. With a good mount and the Rhino's Rush spell, you are a fearsome charger.

Grab Divine Might to put your Turn attempts to use - channelling them into damage with your sword! Take Battle Blessing for swift-action buffs! Use Lay on Hands as a powerful touch attack against undead!

[Ravens_cry]

Pathfinder Paladin Smite is pretty awesome, I'd give them that. Also, make it work on ranged as well by default. I see no reason to limit it to melee, allowing a little more thematic diversity.

[Iwasforger03]

I find that pathfinder paladin is, by pure comparison, superior to 3.5 paladin. Especially if you can burn "channel energy" as though it was turn undead and the DM allows divine feats.

IF we're just talking 3.5 paladin, well, i'm not as familiar with it, sadly, but yes, if you only want to change a few things pathfinder smite is good, or pathfinder's non-mount class option could also work. Or, as I mentioned earlier, just switch out 3.5 paladin for pathfinder paladin and allow channel energy and/or lay on hands to be used in place of the missing turn undead for divine feats.

[Andion Isurand]

I recently dabbled with the paladin spellcasting (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2014/06/paladin-spellcasting.html) feature, and made some changes one can use. Many paladin brews on the boards do something similar in this regard.

Not sure yet, how I would alter their other features however.

[Pluto!]

For the last Paladin I've played and that I've DMed, I've been dropping to d8 HD, removing the SLAs and Lay on Hands and bumping up to Bard-modeled Charisma-based, full CL, 6-level spellcasting, borrowing some Orisons and level 5-6 spells from the Cleric.

It's been a very simple, very direct fix that I've liked a lot, and it's a line of thought I've been happy with on pretty much all of the underpowered half-casting classes.

[Auramis]

I've tried retooling paladin to be a bit more useful in terms of spellcasting before. I've had the idea to give them level 0-5 spells (like Duskblade and Mystic Ranger), treat their ECL as full rather than half, give them good will saves, and finally giving them Mettle at level 13 (similar to Crusader). That said, I tend to just use the Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana and encourage people to pick Fighter, Knight, or Crusader before going into it.

The main reason I even bothered retooling paladin as a base class is because I hate that the PrCs from Unearthed Arcana for Ranger, Bard, and Paladin are 15 levels instead of the standard 10. Bard is fine as it is sitting at tier 3, and Ranger isn't that low in tier 4 to prestige it anyway. The paladin's the only one we use.

[eggynack]

If you don't actually want any paladin class features and only want to write "paladin" on your sheet then the A-Game Paladin is an okay build.
The irony there is that an optimized paladin actually ends up less like a paladin than just running it with some other class. I mean, you toss on magic power, with some combination of sword of the arcane order, mystic fire knight, and battle blessing, you add on inspire courage, with from smite to song and/or harmonious knight, and you end up with a pretty powerful character, but I don't see why you wouldn't just play a bard at that point. Cleric and crusader actually are better options, because a well built and played cleric actually does look a lot like a paladin, and more so than high-op paladins themselves.

[tadkins]

Cleric and crusader actually are better options, because a well built and played cleric actually does look a lot like a paladin, and more so than high-op paladins themselves.

This is true. Why not just play a melee cleric and act like a paladin?

[Nilehus]

This is true. Why not just play a melee cleric and act like a paladin?

Because Clerics are just OP Paladins. :smallyuk:

(I'm not bitter that one of my favorite classes, fluff-wise, is a pale mockery of another class...:smallfrown:)

[facelessminion]

If you're playing 3.5, then yoink the Pathfinder paladin, while still allowing them to use the Battle Blessing feat. :v

[Coidzor]

Been thinking about this lately, in case any players in my next game want monk or pally. Especially something that is new player friendly and not intimidating if they've just started grokking Core. Fax's ''mantle'' Paladin & Pf's variant are the quick ones I've used or seen used in the past.

One simple thing is to let turn undead just work w/out gimping, but that is very minor indeed. Still, it just looks better, in an aesthetic sort od way, like giving Ranger full AC of its d10 back.

[eggynack]

Because Clerics are just OP Paladins. :smallyuk:

But if clerics are just OP paladins, then that's perfect, because the OP asked for a more awesome paladin. Alternatively, the other class the OP turned down, the crusader, is an also more awesome paladin, which isn't as ridiculous.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The simple:

Spellcasting is based off charisma, has CL=class level, and twice as many spells/day as listed.
Smite can be used the listed number of times per encounter, not per day, and deals +1d6 damage per class level.
Lay on Hands is usable as a swift action, and may be refilled with a minute of prayer Charisma Modifier times per day.
Grant bonus feats every 4th level, either Fighter bonus feats or Divine feats.
Boost skill points to 4+Int/level
Allow him to use his Paladin level in place of skill ranks and his Charisma modifier in place of Dex when making Ride or Handle Animal checks for his mount.


The full fix: I have one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221312-A-hero-is-a-man-too-stubborn-to-die-a-3-5-Paladin-fix-%28PEACH%29&p=12150015#post12150015)

[Coidzor]

The simple:

Spellcasting is based off charisma, has CL=class level, and twice as many spells/day as listed.
Smite can be used the listed number of times per encounter, not per day, and deals +1d6 damage per class level.
Lay on Hands is usable as a swift action, and may be refilled with a minute of prayer Charisma Modifier times per day.
Grant bonus feats every 4th level, either Fighter bonus feats or Divine feats.
Boost skill points to 4+Int/level
Allow him to use his Paladin level in place of skill ranks and his Charisma modifier in place of Dex when making Ride or Handle Animal checks for his mount.


The full fix: I have one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221312-A-hero-is-a-man-too-stubborn-to-die-a-3-5-Paladin-fix-%28PEACH%29&p=12150015#post12150015)

nice quick list, and thanks for reminding me to check out yer full fix. :3

[Tvtyrant]

I like giving them the Saint template free of charge and making smite an every other attack ability.

[Psyren]

Use the PF Paladin with the Sacred Servant archetype - instant T3.

[Anlashok]

But if clerics are just OP paladins, then that's perfect, because the OP asked for a more awesome paladin. Alternatively, the other class the OP turned down, the crusader, is an also more awesome paladin, which isn't as ridiculous.

It is a good solution. Crusader and Cleric are awesome options. So is A-game paladin. I just wanted to see if there was anything people had that dealt directly with the paladin chassis and kept something that still looked like a paladin at the end and this thread has been a great help so far. Got lots of fun ideas with all that stuff.

[Graypairofsocks]

I find it's fairly effective to compress it down into ten levels and turn it into a prestige class. Encourage anyone who wants to be a paladin to first take a few levels of knight and then shift into paladin once they qualify (I do something along the lines of BAB +5, like ten points in diplomacy, make contact with a good outsider/attract the attention of a non-evil deity).

It's not a perfect system, but I like it.

Uh there already is a Paladin Prc, it is in Unearthed Arcana and it is called the Prestige Paladin.

Here is a link to it on d20srd.org. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)

[Auramis]

Uh there already is a Paladin Prc, it is in Unearthed Arcana and it is called the Prestige Paladin.

Here is a link to it on d20srd.org. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)

I mentioned this in one of my earlier posts too. I'm not a big fan of it being 15 levels, but it's far better than base paladin. The only real downside is that it makes multiclassing a bit messier.

[prufock]

My own personal fix. (http://dndfulcrum.wikispaces.com/Paladin) Basically, I combined several sub-par classes (hexblade, knight, marshal, paladin) into one, and adjusted the mechanics to allow a paladin of any alignment.

[Segev]

A thought mostly off the top of my head, but what if the Paladin's Oath was broken down into components, and each component given a class feature or set thereof to which it is tied?

Build the Paladin class such that it gets its powers from adherence to the Oaths, and that breaking parts of them causes "falling by pieces" as he loses parts of his class.

Make the features awesome enough to warrant having the requirements to adhere to the Oaths associated.

[KorbeltheReader]

When I last created a mid-level paladin (9 or so), I created him alongside a number of other characters (a druid, a dragon shaman, a cleric) and here are the specific problems I ran into with paladins compared to most of the others:

1. MAD MAD MAD: fighting requires STR and CON, spellcasting keys off of WIS, and special abilities use CHA. Ouch. Most paladins are going to have to be totally deficient in one or more key abilities.

2. specific underpowered abilities: the numbers on smite are awful. A paladin's lay on hands is weaker than a dragon shaman's. Why even have turning if it's 3 levels too low?

3. the level 6 traffic jam: this is the one that really gets my gourd. The paladin has a lot of abilities that could be respectable given some feat love. Spellcasting, special mount, and using turning to fuel combat/spells are the big 3. The paladin gets them all between levels 4 and 5, though, so he can't take any of the relevant feats until 6. But wait, paladins have more reason than most to take Leadership as it complements the flavor, compensates for his weaknesses, and he's more likely to stack CHA. Leadership also requires level 6. So a human paladin with 2 flaws who wants Leadership won't be able to beef up his abilities before level 9, and thus cannot use fully half of his feat slots to improve his best class abilities. WTH?

In my opinion, a good paladin fix needs to deal with these 3 issues.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I come from a 1e background wherePaladins were Fighter+, they lost nothing at low levels and slowly falling behind in extra attacks from specialization at higher levels and gaining all of the now iconic Paladin abilities. This lead me to just give Paladins full fighter feat progression, though in the future I may reduce it to a slower progression like OA Samuri to give actual Fighters a small edge in pure martial ability even though Paladins are an intentionally superior class in my world.

[Segev]

3. the level 6 traffic jam:

This is an interesting one. The question is, in attempting to "fix" it, would giving them room to pick ONE of those things on which to concentrate be enough, or must all of them be given the feats to make them viable?

[elliott20]

Another one is to re-work the code of conduct stuff.

The problem with paladins is that the code of conduct, while cool thematically, is a poor game implementation. Punishment for doing wrong is not all that interesting. It just causes players to do all they can to not trip their code. And what makes a paladin a JUICY class for me is that paladins have to have moral struggles that sometimes they just can't win easily, and sometimes they need to figure out. That struggle and doubt is what makes Paladins GREAT.

But the way the rules are written right now, basically any time you put this kind of struggle in front of a paladin, you're more likely than not going to end up punishing them as a result, especially if you already have a set of choices that you believe are "valid".

What they should have done, is give the players incentives to do good, but also give them incentives to feel real moral / ethical struggles.

This is why I believe that it is better for players to first write up their own beliefs / goals in general brush strokes, and instead of constantly threatening them of losing their paladinhood, let those who can go through that ordeal and come out back on top in the end earn something extra for it.

think about it, who doesn't love a good redemption storyline? Then shouldn't we encourage people to actually experience that and play it out?

[toapat]

Heres a quick build that isnt A-Game Paladin but still does well:

Race: Any
Stats: 32pointbuy: 16 Str, 14 Con, 18 Cha or Wis

Paladin 6, Fist of Raziel 7, RKV 7, in that order

Feats
1: Dynamic Priest or Power Attack
3: Power attack or Serenity
6: Servent of the Heavens
9: Martial Study: Crusader Strike
12: Martial Stance: Iron Guard's Glare
15: SotAO
18: Battleblessing

End Results: Cha Cast as 17th lvl paladin, 6 smites/day with 4 rider effects, 5 Known/2+1 readied


For the last Paladin I've played and that I've DMed, I've been dropping to d8 HD, removing the SLAs and Lay on Hands and bumping up to Bard-modeled Charisma-based, full CL, 6-level spellcasting, borrowing some Orisons and level 5-6 spells from the Cleric.

It's been a very simple, very direct fix that I've liked a lot, and it's a line of thought I've been happy with on pretty much all of the underpowered half-casting classes.

That doesnt fix anything and just increases paladin problems.

[BWR]

Class fix: play Pathfinder paladin. I love it.
Code fix: what I do for all classes that have a divine source of power is require them to have certain vows. In the case of the paladin, they are still required to be LG and follow the basic Code in the book, but the vows make things a bit more clear so both player and DM are on the same page. 3- 4 core vows, the kind that should not under any circumstances be broken, and violations lead to loss of powers (which appropriate quests or Atonement spells can recover). Additionally I require 6-8 secondary vows that are either clarifications of the core vows or restrictions and requirements that you should think very carefully before violating, but which do not entail an automatic loss of powers if there are extenuating circumstances.

E.g. one of the paladins in my group, an elf, has the following core vows (IIRC - it's been few years since we agreed on this)
- protect all elves and the elven homeland against all enemies
- show mercy to enemies who ask for it and give everyone an opportunity to surrender and repent their ways before engaging in combat, if they have not already attacked
- fight all evil and show now hesitation in protecting those unable to protect themselves
Secondary vows:
- be generous with your wealth, give much of your excess to worthy causes like Good aligned churches, social programs, beggars, etc,
- be joyous and bring hope and cheer to the world. Life is so much better if you make drudgery into a game and bring happiness to those in need
- stealth and ambush tactics are permissable so long as the enemy is given a chance to surrender before you attack)
-abstain from alcohol (100 years, basically all her young adulthood)
- chastity (ditto)
- honesty, never lie or willingly mislead someone, though feinting in combat and similar tactics are acceptable

This player's other elf paladin has the following (in another game with another DM)
- Never willingly lie or deceive others. In combat against the enemies of Corellon one may emply Stealth and superior tactics [read: ambushes and backstabs, here we come]
- One must always take care to look presentable and act courteously
- One will never demand or expect reward or payment for vanquishing evil
- One must create one work of art, e.g. masterwork tool, weapon, a song or poem, a painting, etc. per year, dedicated to Corellon and donated to a temple of his if possible
- One must respect nature and never harm animals for reasons other than self-defense or survival. Take only what is needed from nature without upsetting the natural balance
- Elders must always be deferred to as leaders or superiors
- the freedom of evils and good races must be protected against the tyrrany of evil races (the entire setting is a bit racist)
- One cannot attack an elf with lethal froce. In dire need nonlethal may be used.
-

[Zaq]

Their spells are arguably their strongest feature. Give them the spellcasting progression of the Mystic Ranger, and they become a hell of a lot more interesting, especially with Battle Blessing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That doesnt fix anything and just increases paladin problems.
That's really not at all true. It creates a much more caster-y class than the base paladin, and it certainly leaves a lot of problems unaddressed, but overall you'd have a much more capable character. This is 3.5-- casting, especially prepared casting, beats everything.

[toapat]

That's really not at all true. It creates a much more caster-y class than the base paladin, and it certainly leaves a lot of problems unaddressed, but overall you'd have a much more capable character. This is 3.5-- casting, especially prepared casting, beats everything.

He gutted basically all the support class features and handed 2 wholly reduntant and resultantly worthless spell-levels to paladin. the cha casting fixes a problem but the rest is straight nerfs

[KorbeltheReader]

This is an interesting one. The question is, in attempting to "fix" it, would giving them room to pick ONE of those things on which to concentrate be enough, or must all of them be given the feats to make them viable?

If we define "viable" as "feels they can contribute in a party with a martial adept," personally, I would give them 2 of the abilities at level 1 (spellcasting and turn undead) and the third (special mount) probably at 3. Doing that on its own would free them to use their feats much more efficiently.

[Segev]

If we define "viable" as "feels they can contribute in a party with a martial adept," personally, I would give them 2 of the abilities at level 1 (spellcasting and turn undead) and the third (special mount) probably at 3. Doing that on its own would free them to use their feats much more efficiently.

I think I'd go with mount before spellcasting. Being a spellcaster "second" is one of the things that makes it more "fighter" and less "cleric."

[KorbeltheReader]

I think I'd go with mount before spellcasting. Being a spellcaster "second" is one of the things that makes it more "fighter" and less "cleric."

A perfectly reasonable choice.

[aleucard]

I actually have an idea. How about we take the Paladin and turn it into a Vow? Would allow for much more types of Paladin than what we have today, and as long as the Paladin we use is an updated version that is objectively better at being a Paladin than just the Vow (with the Vow'd character's normal abilities augmenting, obviously), we can still have the actual class in play if that matters to you.

[Nilehus]

think about it, who doesn't love a good redemption storyline? Then shouldn't we encourage people to actually experience that and play it out?

Me.

Seriously, after the first dozen or so arbitrary Falls, it really, really, really gets old.

[Grod_The_Giant]

He gutted basically all the support class features and handed 2 wholly reduntant and resultantly worthless spell-levels to paladin. the cha casting fixes a problem but the rest is straight nerfs
Say what? Dropping Detect Evil, Lay on Hands, and Remove Disease is a crippling nerf? Getting spells like (presumably) Righteous Might and Heal is redundant and worthless? Look, I know you have strong views on the class, but just because he addressed the problems in a different way doesn't mean his fix is wrong.

[toapat]

*snip*

The mount is a Summon Monster SLA. Or did you not remember that?

as for Heal? PF's LoH is relatively better. Righteous Might still suffers from the same problem of all size increases in that your Maximum Load is effectively reduced by 37.5%, potentially putting you over weight limit.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The mount is a Summon Monster SLA. Or did you not remember that?
No, I didn't. (Though it doesn't appeared to be based on Summon Monster at all). I'd still ask to see a full list of changes before making judgements-- the original post was no more than a quick "adaptation" blurb, rather than a full fix. I'd be surprised if he removed the mount.


as for Heal? PF's LoH is relatively better. Righteous Might still suffers from the same problem of all size increases in that your Maximum Load is effectively reduced by 37.5%, potentially putting you over weight limit.
We're not talking about the Pathfinder paladin, who doesn't really need the help. I'm not sure how you're get the carrying capacity decrease-- your armor's weight is doubled, but so is your carrying capacity, and that's before the Strength increase. Unless you're talking about your personal weight, which is most definitely not part of the calculation. If it was, your average guy (10 strength, ~137 lb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_weight#Average_weight_around_the_world)) would find it impossible to move without staggering.

[Coidzor]

Me.

Seriously, after the first dozen or so arbitrary Falls, it really, really, really gets old.

Well, to be fair, they did say a *good* redemptive story. Arbitrary Falls would tend to conflict with that.

[toapat]

No, I didn't. (Though it doesn't appeared to be based on Summon Monster at all). I'd still ask to see a full list of changes before making judgements-- the original post was no more than a quick "adaptation" blurb, rather than a full fix. I'd be surprised if he removed the mount.


We're not talking about the Pathfinder paladin, who doesn't really need the help. I'm not sure how you're get the carrying capacity decrease-- your armor's weight is doubled, but so is your carrying capacity, and that's before the Strength increase. Unless you're talking about your personal weight, which is most definitely not part of the calculation. If it was, your average guy (10 strength, ~137 lb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_weight#Average_weight_around_the_world)) would find it impossible to move without staggering.


It took me 4 years to learn that Paladin mount had a duration. That wall of text they call a class feature is both Su and Sp. I doubt Augment summoning would matter much but it is just another spice you can add to the Ubermount stew.

All of your equipment increases in weight. and although you get a size bonus to strength, the end result is a slight load penalty.

[Nilehus]

Well, to be fair, they did say a *good* redemptive story. Arbitrary Falls would tend to conflict with that.

True. Sorry, when I see "redemption story" and "Paladin" in the same sentence, I jump straight to that. My apologies.

Grod: That Paladin template you posted is absolutely fantastic. Really defines the Paladin as separate from Fighters and Clerics, gives them a needed power boost without making them overpowered, and gets rid of a few irksome qualities. Next campaign I play, I'm going to use it, DM willing.

[Coidzor]

I actually have an idea. How about we take the Paladin and turn it into a Vow? Would allow for much more types of Paladin than what we have today, and as long as the Paladin we use is an updated version that is objectively better at being a Paladin than just the Vow (with the Vow'd character's normal abilities augmenting, obviously), we can still have the actual class in play if that matters to you.

So a Template? An [Exalted] Feat that requires Sacred Vow? An [Exalted] Feat that doesn't require Sacred Vow?

I've had some idea of making a sort of Racial Paragon Class for Paladins that anyone can enter that gives benefits that scale based upon Character Level depending upon how many levels that are taken, somewhere between 2 and 5 total, maybe just the standard 3. I wanted to go with a PrC at first but prerequisites never really sat right for me or defining what level, exactly, it can be entered at.

I've also brainstormed about a similar thing with a Template that draws from Half-Fey/Phrenic/Half-Celestial and the like for giving increasing benefits as the character progresses. I tend to like those as it feels better balanced to not front-load the level adjustment and eases the pain of losing levels to continue to get something over time to some extent or another.


True. Sorry, when I see "redemption story" and "Paladin" in the same sentence, I jump straight to that. My apologies.

Grod: That Paladin template you posted is absolutely fantastic. Really defines the Paladin as separate from Fighters and Clerics, gives them a needed power boost without making them overpowered, and gets rid of a few irksome qualities. Next campaign I play, I'm going to use it, DM willing.

The good ones are a bit rarer, I think partially from the general culture and partially just from the initial presentation.

Wait, wait, I missed a Paladin template!? :smalleek: *goes back to check*

[elliott20]

True. Sorry, when I see "redemption story" and "Paladin" in the same sentence, I jump straight to that. My apologies.

I understand that. It is perfectly reasonable to be irked by a storyline that was basically foisted upon you.

This is why when I GM these things, I usually make the fall the player's choice. Yes. The player's choice. I mean, I'll hint at it left and right if I see the opportunity, but ultimately, I put it to the player something to the tune of "your paladin vows don't seem to be working out very well for you, maybe we can work on new vows or do you want to try to play this out and see where this goes?".

something along those lines generally gets my players thinking about what they are doing, and the next step is to dangle the carrot in front of them.

In my mind, what drives a paladin's fall the most is NOT just the judge from a third party, but also a loss of faith from the paladin him/herself. It also removes the sting of being punished from the player as it is now the player that drives this course of action.

To me, that makes for a better game.

[Nilehus]

The good ones are a bit rarer, I think partially from the general culture and partially just from the initial presentation.

Wait, wait, I missed a Paladin template!? :smalleek: *goes back to check*

Not exactly a template, but a rewrite of the class, period. Makes the Paladin an absolute tank at higher levels, and increases their healing ability and team support a lot. It's beautiful.

Elliot: I'd love to run a game with you, from the sounds of it. :smallsmile: Too many DM's try to trick or force it into happening, and your view is refreshing to hear.

[aleucard]

So a Template? An [Exalted] Feat that requires Sacred Vow? An [Exalted] Feat that doesn't require Sacred Vow?

#2, most likely. Not one that uses existing Vows as a baseline, though, every single one of them from what I hear and read is completely bork't in one way or another (whether being basically useless, broken or both). The actual Vow should be pretty stringent on expecting a Knight in Shining Armor, though personally I'd like to be able to allow more, er, 'alternative' interpretations of that without needing a Grayguard equivalent. Also, maybe there should be 2 versions, one for Cha to everything important and one for Wis, with altered stats depending on which is picked; for instance, assuming they're equal otherwise, the Cha version has better LoH with the Wis getting better Turning. We'd need to identify exactly what is getting added to this and how quickly, since there's only so much power that the restrictions can account for after all, but making it something that is deserving of a second look for any Good character without making it near-mandatory when allowed shouldn't be THAT hard.

[Arbane]

In my mind, what drives a paladin's fall the most is NOT just the judge from a third party, but also a loss of faith from the paladin him/herself. It also removes the sting of being punished from the player as it is now the player that drives this course of action.


You know, it's theoretically possible for a Cleric or a Druid to fall, but I don't think I've EVER heard of that happening. It's always the poor paladins who have to take it in the neck for the sake or either Drama or Arguing for Three Hours About Ethics and Utilitarianism.

[BWR]

You know, it's theoretically possible for a Cleric or a Druid to fall, but I don't think I've EVER heard of that happening. It's always the poor paladins who have to take it in the neck for the sake or either Drama or Arguing for Three Hours About Ethics and Utilitarianism.

As a DM I've never had a divine character fall irredeemably, but I have had them temporarily lose the favor of their patron and require some atonement.

[toapat]

You know, it's theoretically possible for a Cleric or a Druid to fall, but I don't think I've EVER heard of that happening. It's always the poor paladins who have to take it in the neck for the sake or either Drama or Arguing for Three Hours About Ethics and Utilitarianism.

One of the clerics in ItmeJP's Rollplay series on Youtube did that.

Honestly, It should be easier for a cleric to fall and harder for them to be redeemed than any paladin should be. Paladins are the front lines, Sometimes blood gets in your eyes and you make a mistake. while a paladin will have to go and atone for that, a Cleric is a missionary. If a cleric violates their faith, it should be way more difficult because they are not supposed to be front line combatants, they are there spreading the faith.

Technically, Its also possible for a favored Soul to fall

[Vhaidara]

Grod: That Paladin template you posted is absolutely fantastic. Really defines the Paladin as separate from Fighters and Clerics, gives them a needed power boost without making them overpowered, and gets rid of a few irksome qualities. Next campaign I play, I'm going to use it, DM willing.

I second this. And I've already gotten it approved for the return of my Tiefling Warlock (he's coming back as a hellbred Paladin)

[Grod_The_Giant]

All of your equipment increases in weight. and although you get a size bonus to strength, the end result is a slight load penalty.
Everything I can find says that equipment doubles in weight when you go from medium to large. Doing so also doubles your carrying capacity.


Grod: That Paladin template you posted is absolutely fantastic.

I second this. And I've already gotten it approved for the return of my Tiefling Warlock (he's coming back as a hellbred Paladin)
:smallredface: Thanks, guys. Let me know how it goes!

[Firechanter]

You can really do a lot with ACFs.

I'm very happy with a build based off the A-Game Paladin, but changed from stupid-cheesy Illumian to honest-to-goodness Human. With a 32 Point Buy it works just fine. If belonging to two orders and serving two different gods is out of the question (completely understandable), I will stick to Harmonious Knight.

If I am DM and a player is bent on playing a Pally, I am prepared to backport the PF Paladin; key changes being reduced MADness and Smites holding for a full encounter. Also I would up the spellcasting by +2 Slots per Level -- I do the same for the Ranger btw. In addition, the 3.5 ACFs remain fair game.

[elliott20]

Elliot: I'd love to run a game with you, from the sounds of it. :smallsmile: Too many DM's try to trick or force it into happening, and your view is refreshing to hear.
Thanks. I think a big part of the problem is the way D&D basically teaches a GM vs. US kind of dichotomy, which is part of the problem here.


You know, it's theoretically possible for a Cleric or a Druid to fall, but I don't think I've EVER heard of that happening. It's always the poor paladins who have to take it in the neck for the sake or either Drama or Arguing for Three Hours About Ethics and Utilitarianism.


One of the clerics in ItmeJP's Rollplay series on Youtube did that.

Honestly, It should be easier for a cleric to fall and harder for them to be redeemed than any paladin should be. Paladins are the front lines, Sometimes blood gets in your eyes and you make a mistake. while a paladin will have to go and atone for that, a Cleric is a missionary. If a cleric violates their faith, it should be way more difficult because they are not supposed to be front line combatants, they are there spreading the faith.

Technically, Its also possible for a favored Soul to fall

You see, this is part of the problem with mechanics that have loss of power used not as a plot point, but simply as a thing that just happens to you. All that I've learned in the years I've been playing other systems culminates into one thing: decisions and conflicts are the sauce that makes everything fun, but you need to give players an incentive to experience them. Some will happily jump in on that themselves, while others still come in with a semi-"I need to win" mentality, and need to be tricked into this.

For a cleric, or any character of faith, faith should be in the center of their entire story arc, and any player who doesn't explore that is missing a wonderful opportunity to really play out some awesome storylines. Look at Shepherd Book's storyline on Firefly. The guy's faith might not always be front and center on display of the plot, but it is clear that it is a big part of what defines him, and yet it is not static, which means that often times, his faith is the driving force in many of his actions, and in others it is tested for what it is really worth. i.e. On the show he had a minor breakdown when he realized he's now on a ship with thieves and smugglers, and later in the comic he made the decision to leave the ship because he doesn't want to become the type of man who strikes out without thought and remorse. these are all powerful decisions driven by faith.

And to relegate faith to being just another ability / power source is to me a GIANT waste of character point.

[Iwasforger03]

You see, this is part of the problem with mechanics that have loss of power used not as a plot point, but simply as a thing that just happens to you. All that I've learned in the years I've been playing other systems culminates into one thing: decisions and conflicts are the sauce that makes everything fun, but you need to give players an incentive to experience them. Some will happily jump in on that themselves, while others still come in with a semi-"I need to win" mentality, and need to be tricked into this.

For a cleric, or any character of faith, faith should be in the center of their entire story arc, and any player who doesn't explore that is missing a wonderful opportunity to really play out some awesome storylines. Look at Shepherd Book's storyline on Firefly. The guy's faith might not always be front and center on display of the plot, but it is clear that it is a big part of what defines him, and yet it is not static, which means that often times, his faith is the driving force in many of his actions, and in others it is tested for what it is really worth. i.e. On the show he had a minor breakdown when he realized he's now on a ship with thieves and smugglers, and later in the comic he made the decision to leave the ship because he doesn't want to become the type of man who strikes out without thought and remorse. these are all powerful decisions driven by faith.

And to relegate faith to being just another ability / power source is to me a GIANT waste of character point.

Well Put sirrah, I endorse this viewpoint. Though with the qualifier that since these characters don't necessarily have to follow a deity, they can follow a cause instead, keep the definition of faith broad.

I have a warpriest utterly devoted to another character because he honestly believes she embodies more of the traits and principles of honor, loyalty, love, and freedom than anyone else he has ever served/worked for. He is devoted to HER cause, not to a deity.

[Pluto!]

He gutted basically all the support class features and handed 2 wholly reduntant and resultantly worthless spell-levels to paladin. the cha casting fixes a problem but the rest is straight nerfs
If you think Remove Disease and 21 HP are worth more than 10 CL and up to 7 levels' acceleration for specific spells, I don't think we're playing the same game.

[aleucard]

I still want to see if someone's up to the idea of converting the Paladin into a Vow.