Baldur's Gate 2

[Immabozo]

So I am soloing the game for the second time and I hit the exp cap, unfortunately, the computer with the game is not on the internet (I know, we thought those were extinct!) and I have decided to pick up another companion, since I am capped out on EXP. I am about to face Bhodi. So I have 2 questions.

1, Who should I take on as my second party member? I was thinking Edwin, because I am a mage and it would be fun to have another (extra spell slots, of sorts) or, possibly a tank, like someone with Carsomyr?

2. Would I be better off waiting until the start of ToB to pick up my new companion?

[NecroRebel]

Take a thief if you're not one already. It's a lot easier to simply disarm traps than it is to try tanking them, and less frustrating than missing a save and needing to reload. You can immunize yourself to a lot of traps through spells, but it's still easier to detect and disarm them. I'd suggest Imoen.

[Immabozo]

Sorry, I am a mage/thief. So I have theifing covered

[blueblade]

I would recommend Keldorn, or Kraagor. Both great tanks. Kraagor has better damage output, but I find Keldorns dispel magic to be almost game-breakingly good. I know you probably have very good dispel for now, but eventually you will hit higher level foes, and be glad for his dispel++

PS. If you get Throne of Bhaal, you will have the level cap raised much higher, and likely not need the 2nd character at all

[Immabozo]

I would recommend Keldorn, or Kraagor. Both great tanks. Kraagor has better damage output, but I find Keldorns dispel magic to be almost game-breakingly good. I know you probably have very good dispel for now, but eventually you will hit higher level foes, and be glad for his dispel++

PS. If you get Throne of Bhaal, you will have the level cap raised much higher, and likely not need the 2nd character at all

I think you are right. Because I found an amazing tactic that destroys any situation with my mage. The amulet and robe that increase casting speed, projeect image, imp. alacrity and timestop and just unload everything in the area I am having trouble. Insta cast 4 fireballs, insta cast the level 10 spell dragon's breath, insta cast 3 chain lightnings, insta cast 4 magic missiles, 2 or 3 chromatic orbs, 3 sunfires and when time stop ends, everything dies.

and after all that, the only thing the original used, was one project image spell slot.

The way to break that worse, is chain contingency 3 project image for when you're helpless. Casting project image renders you helpless and now you have 4 project images.

I am so glad I've decided on a no-caster party next time I play.

So I think A tank is the way to go. But who? Keldorn is the only one who can use the Carsmyr, right? that AND his disspell and his true seeing might make him the "it" choice

EDIT: as you probably figured from that post, I do have ToB and I already hit the EXP cap for it, at the tail end of BG2

[Calemyr]

Me, I'd take Sarevok and Imoen, and let all know and fear the horror that is the Bhaalspawn.

'Course, I'd never play a solo game, because the party is what makes the game fun for me.

[Immabozo]

Me, I'd take Sarevok and Imoen, and let all know and fear the horror that is the Bhaalspawn.

'Course, I'd never play a solo game, because the party is what makes the game fun for me.

haha, cute idea.

It was mostly for the challenge of running solo. Could I do it on the most difficult, difficulty? First I ran it with a F/M/T who was good at everything. I didn't realize how amazing backstab was, until that character.

Now I am trying it with a solo M/T and seeing that I really need to change tactics with it. But I am also going for a full Watcher's Keep and ToB clear this time. Although, thinking I might just grab another because I can, now.

[Sylthia]

haha, cute idea.

It was mostly for the challenge of running solo. Could I do it on the most difficult, difficulty? First I ran it with a F/M/T who was good at everything. I didn't realize how amazing backstab was, until that character.

Now I am trying it with a solo M/T and seeing that I really need to change tactics with it. But I am also going for a full Watcher's Keep and ToB clear this time. Although, thinking I might just grab another because I can, now.

Even capped, Watchers Keep May give you trouble. The boss is immune to Time Stop.

[Immabozo]

Even capped, Watchers Keep May give you trouble. The boss is immune to Time Stop.

I figured the end-game characters of ToB would (give me trouble that is).

So he acts in Time Stop too? So it becomes a 1v1 with the Demigorgon? Sounds like fun times.

Perhaps a gifted tank is the way to go. Keldorn with the Holy Avenger and decked out in the best plate and rings and items perhaps?

[Winthur]

Spike traps are the easiest way.

Alternately, since you're level capped, just don't fight him at all.

[Immabozo]

Even capped, Watchers Keep May give you trouble. The boss is immune to Time Stop.

Does the boss act in the time stop too?


Spike traps are the easiest way.

Alternately, since you're level capped, just don't fight him at all.

Does he drop anything cool? Or is it a fight because I can fight him? I might just pick up Keldorn, with the Carsomyr, to tank him, after TOB

[Calemyr]

Does the boss act in the time stop too?



Does he drop anything cool? Or is it a fight because I can fight him? I might just pick up Keldorn, with the Carsomyr, to tank him, after TOB

Demogorgon doesn't drop anything and technically fighting him is a bad idea - the keep is his prison, kill him and he just reforms back in the pit, free as a very evil bird. Still better than letting him free in the mortal plane (which is what not acting would do). And yes, he acts during time stops. The tougher boss mods (by Gaider, I think) also gave this trait to at least Balthazaar.

[Immabozo]

Demogorgon doesn't drop anything and technically fighting him is a bad idea - the keep is his prison, kill him and he just reforms back in the pit, free as a very evil bird. Still better than letting him free in the mortal plane (which is what not acting would do). And yes, he acts during time stops. The tougher boss mods (by Gaider, I think) also gave this trait to at least Balthazaar.

hmmm, interesting. So your choices are basically let him free on the Prime Material, or kill him and he re-forms in the pit? No other choices? That seems like a raw choice indeed!

[NecroRebel]

hmmm, interesting. So your choices are basically let him free on the Prime Material, or kill him and he re-forms in the pit? No other choices? That seems like a raw choice indeed!

I think the choices are basically "Do nothing, Demogorgon breaks free and rampages across the Prime," "Kill Demogorgon, Demogorgon just reforms in the Abyss and continues his multiplanar Evil," and "Read the scroll the Watchers give you and seal Watcher's Keep forever, trapping Demogorgon (and you) within." Helm's servants kind of send you into the Keep specifically so that you and your portion of Bhaal will get sealed away along with the demon, hoping that that will stop Bhaal's resurrection.

[Calemyr]

hmmm, interesting. So your choices are basically let him free on the Prime Material, or kill him and he re-forms in the pit? No other choices? That seems like a raw choice indeed!

Not exactly. The choices are:
* Do nothing. The seal breaks in a couple centuries and Demogorgon is free in the material plane.
* Run the keep and do the ritual: You are locked in with Demogorgon until you agree to let him help you escape.
* Run the keep and escape: The seal breaks in a couple decades and Demogorgon is free in the material plane.
* Run the keep, escape, trick the vigil knights into going into the keep: Helm gives you a scroll that lets you restore the seal from outside.
* Run the keep and kill Demogorgon: Demogorgon respawns in the pit and is free right now, but weakened and it will be a long time before he gets back to the material plane.

[Immabozo]

Not exactly. The choices are:
* Do nothing. The seal breaks in a couple centuries and Demogorgon is free in the material plane.
* Run the keep and do the ritual: You are locked in with Demogorgon until you agree to let him help you escape.
* Run the keep and escape: The seal breaks in a couple decades and Demogorgon is free in the material plane.
* Run the keep, escape, trick the vigil knights into going into the keep: Helm gives you a scroll that lets you restore the seal from outside.
* Run the keep and kill Demogorgon: Demogorgon respawns in the pit and is free right now, but weakened and it will be a long time before he gets back to the material plane.

And I continue to love the writing style style of the game designers

[Kish]

Actually, it's more like:
You never complete Watcher's Keep. Demogorgon will eventually escape.
You complete Watcher's Keep and kill Demogorgon. Demogorgon is free again, but back in the Abyss, not on the Prime.
You complete Watcher's Keep and don't kill Demogorgon (meaning that you read the scroll and convinced Demogorgon to use all the energy he'd gathered so far for escaping to help you escape instead). The wards are renewed, the creatures Demogorgon had summoned are dead, he has to start over again gathering energy to break the wards...he'll still eventually escape, assuming there aren't an infinite number of adventurers/Helmites willing to seal themselves in with him (tricking him into letting the adventurers out probably won't work a second time), but the "eventually" is a lot further away than if you never came in at all. I'm not sure why Calemyr thinks the ward will break faster if you go through Watcher's Keep.

[Immabozo]

So, I can complete a few levels of watcher's keep int BGII and then finish it is ToB, right?

[Kish]

You can do part of Watcher's Keep in Shadows of Amn (chapters 2, 3, 6 or 7) and the rest of it in Throne of Bhaal (chapters 8-9--you can't do it in Chapter Ten, for reasons that will be obvious to you if you've ever finished it before).

Your companions will only have comments if you're in Chapter 8 or 9, plus if you're taking Sarevok you probably want to have him by the time you go to Watcher's Keep (and some of the enemies level with you, such that you'll get more XP the later you go there), plus I have problems with the roleplaying implications of, "A deadly threat to this entire area is on the verge of breaking loose!--I'll go through half its dungeon now, and the other half when I get around to it," which cause me to always finish Watcher's Keep in one go. But none of those are considerations for you.

[Immabozo]

You can do part of Watcher's Keep in Shadows of Amn (chapters 2, 3, 6 or 7) and the rest of it in Throne of Bhaal (chapters 8-9--you can't do it in Chapter Ten, for reasons that will be obvious to you if you've ever finished it before).

Your companions will only have comments if you're in Chapter 8 or 9, plus if you're taking Sarevok you probably want to have him by the time you go to Watcher's Keep (and some of the enemies level with you, such that you'll get more XP the later you go there), plus I have problems with the roleplaying implications of, "A deadly threat to this entire area is on the verge of breaking loose!--I'll go through half its dungeon now, and the other half when I get around to it," which cause me to always finish Watcher's Keep in one go. But none of those are considerations for you.

Good to know.

And no, not this run anyway. Although, if the belief is that Demigorgon willl break free within the next few years, I can see starting some and coming back to it

[Kish]

The belief given to you is, "The Imprisoned One's escape is imminent." The definition of "imminent" is not spelled out. Indeed, Demogorgon mentions that it will take a long time to slowly chip away at the wards after you've read the scroll to renew them and thus he's having to start over from the beginning doing so; from an in-game perspective, ignoring the meta-consideration of "the programmers didn't program in the countryside being ripped apart by Demogorgon and the player can probably guess that," it's entirely possible that when you first enter the Keep his escape is days away.

[Calemyr]

Actually, it's more like:
You never complete Watcher's Keep. Demogorgon will eventually escape.
You complete Watcher's Keep and kill Demogorgon. Demogorgon is free again, but back in the Abyss, not on the Prime.
You complete Watcher's Keep and don't kill Demogorgon (meaning that you read the scroll and convinced Demogorgon to use all the energy he'd gathered so far for escaping to help you escape instead). The wards are renewed, the creatures Demogorgon had summoned are dead, he has to start over again gathering energy to break the wards...he'll still eventually escape, assuming there aren't an infinite number of adventurers/Helmites willing to seal themselves in with him (tricking him into letting the adventurers out probably won't work a second time), but the "eventually" is a lot further away than if you never came in at all. I'm not sure why Calemyr thinks the ward will break faster if you go through Watcher's Keep.

If you were to undo all the locks and remove all the obstacles in the keep then do nothing to fix the seal after he puts a nice hole in it, if you were to run for the hills rather than obtaining (and using) the revised ritual, it would indeed be worse than if you did nothing at all, wouldn't you say?


The belief given to you is, "The Imprisoned One's escape is imminent." The definition of "imminent" is not spelled out. Indeed, Demogorgon mentions that it will take a long time to slowly chip away at the wards after you've read the scroll to renew them and thus he's having to start over from the beginning doing so; from an in-game perspective, ignoring the meta-consideration of "the programmers didn't program in the countryside being ripped apart by Demogorgon and the player can probably guess that," it's entirely possible that when you first enter the Keep his escape is days away.

Come to think of it, that's a very good point. I always assumed that the vigil knights at least had enough sense to keep the timer from winding down too far, but they clearly didn't want to go through the sacrifices necessary to do the ritual in the first place this time around. Whether or not it genuinely was "imminent" or not is immaterial - the seal would have had to be on the later legs of its lifespan and sacrificing a bhaalspawn in order to restart the clock is a perfect scenario - two world-ravaging demons sealed in one prison. However, that's never actually said. I suppose getting him to burn all his energies on a new hole rather than expanding a hole he'd already made is still a win, isn't it?

[Kish]

Oh. Looking at the game's code, you can actually not read the scroll at all, just go down there and come out to do what Demogorgon asks. I didn't even realize that was a possibility, because it makes so little sense that anyone would ever do it.

Two extra options then: You go in, talk to Demogorgon, agree to send the Knights of the Vigil to him, and change your mind, leaving the wards as they are when you start. Or, you go in, talk to Demogorgon, agree to send the Knights of the Vigil to him, follow through, and leave the Keep after kissing off Helm--which should be immediately followed by Demogorgon ravaging the countryside, but they didn't program that.

However, your initial claim either ignored the "you go in, read the scroll, Demogorgon lets you out" option, or presumed that when he lets you out, that somehow also more-than-undoes the effects of the scroll you read.

[Calemyr]

Oh. Looking at the game's code, you can actually not read the scroll at all, just go down there and come out to do what Demogorgon asks. I didn't even realize that was a possibility, because it makes so little sense that anyone would ever do it.

Two extra options then: You go in, talk to Demogorgon, agree to send the Knights of the Vigil to him, and change your mind, leaving the wards as they are when you start. Or, you go in, talk to Demogorgon, agree to send the Knights of the Vigil to him, follow through, and leave the Keep after kissing off Helm--which should be immediately followed by Demogorgon ravaging the countryside, but they didn't program that.

However, your initial claim either ignored the "you go in, read the scroll, Demogorgon lets you out" option, or presumed that when he lets you out, that somehow also more-than-undoes the effects of the scroll you read.

The secondary assumption is the correct one, but I'll readily admit my logic for that argument is flawed. My only defense is that a misunderstanding of the rules of the game ("There are Keep-exclusive banters and comments made by allies, but they only fire when in ToB. If you're playing the game for the party, do not play the Watcher's Keep until then, or you'll miss out.") has kept me from playing the keep in a very, very long time.

[Kish]

That's actually true. They gave the Watcher's Keep lines a "chapter greater than 7" check. No clue why; I'm mildly tempted to make a mod component that takes that requirement out.

[Olinser]

I never went through and soloed it, but I did 2 man it with a Paladin MC and Aerie. With good strength/dex, reasonable armor, and Carsomyr you can 1-3 shot pretty much everything in the game short of a few bosses.

[Calemyr]

That's actually true. They gave the Watcher's Keep lines a "chapter greater than 7" check. No clue why; I'm mildly tempted to make a mod component that takes that requirement out.

So I haven't been stupid, save that I never get that far. (It's too easy to get distracted in SoA - so much to do!)

I can see why they did it, though, to some degree. There's a fairly major bit of circumstance that changes by chapter 7. You're now a wanted fugitive because the midden has hit the windmill on the whole Bhaalspawn saga, Irenicus is now spawn chow, you've killed at least two out of the big Bhaalspawn, you've resurrected Sarevok, and you've got your own pocket plane. Put all that together and it's pretty hard to write much that's relevant in chapter 7 that doesn't look wrong before it. Still, it's a fairly major bummer to have to choose between having the white dragon scales or the crimson dart and getting to see what your party has to say.

[Immabozo]

The belief given to you is, "The Imprisoned One's escape is imminent." The definition of "imminent" is not spelled out. Indeed, Demogorgon mentions that it will take a long time to slowly chip away at the wards after you've read the scroll to renew them and thus he's having to start over from the beginning doing so; from an in-game perspective, ignoring the meta-consideration of "the programmers didn't program in the countryside being ripped apart by Demogorgon and the player can probably guess that," it's entirely possible that when you first enter the Keep his escape is days away.


I never went through and soloed it, but I did 2 man it with a Paladin MC and Aerie. With good strength/dex, reasonable armor, and Carsomyr you can 1-3 shot pretty much everything in the game short of a few bosses.

Then it is settled! Keldorn with Carsomyr it is!