IS this guys calculations right?

[Max Caysey]

I was looking at this (http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/5994449301/the-charging-fighter-breaking-3-5-d-d) and was simply wondering if it could really be right with all the damage. are his calculations right?

I see that powerattack with a twohandes weapon gives twice what is subtracted. So 20= 40

Leap attack says that it gives 100% base damage from powerattack, but 3 times if using twohanded weapon = 120 if 20 is subtracted. Is this right?

And what happens when valorous veapon is added? Do you realy calculate it {2d6+ (str*1.5)+120}x2?

[GGambrel]

Leap attack says that it gives 100% base damage from powerattack, but 3 times if using twohanded weapon = 120 if 20 is subtracted. Is this right?

And what happens when valorous veapon is added? Do you realy calculate it {2d6+ (str*1.5)+120}x2?

I'm quite sure that most DMs would interpret the wording of the Leap Attack feat to mean that when using a two-handed weapon the power attack multiplier is 3x rather than the 2x you would have without the feat. This would give 60 bonus damage from Power Attack combined with Leap Attack when 20 points of the Base Attack Bonus were deducted, not 120. At least that's how I would rule it.

[Zanos]

Leap attack gives +100% damage from powerattack, so taking a -20 penalty with a two handed weapon and leap attacks gives you +60 damage. (200%+100% = 300%). I believe the feat was errata'd to clarify that two-handed leap attacks get triple power attack.

[Flickerdart]

Don't forget how D&D multiplication works - all multipliers are applied to the base number, not the total of the previous multiplier. When you sink 20 BAB into Power Attack, the normal bonus damage is 20. It's then multiplied by 2 for two-handing, but then Leap Attack modifier it to multiplied by 3 instead, for 60. Then the Valorous weapon takes the base damage (2d6+1.5 STR +20) and adds it on top of the 60 you've got going.

[Seppo87]

There is no way to combine Battle Jump and Leap Attack into the same charge.

By RAW, technically, Leap Attack triggers Battle Jump, resulting in a charge into a charge (you basically start another charge because you jumped while charging). Yo dawg.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Complete Adventurer Errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) changes Leap Attack's wording as follows:

Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should
read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with
your jump, and you end your jump in a square from
which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the
normal bonus damage from your use of the Power
Attack feat.
When you two-handed power attack for -20 to hit, your 'normal bonus damage from your use of the power attack feat' will be 40, so Leap Attack increases it to 80.

A Frenzied Berserker 10 with Supreme Power Attack who takes -20 to hit would have a 'normal bonus from your use of the power attack feat' of 80, so Leap Attack increases this to 160.

He's trying to use both the Combat Brute tactical feat (CW) Momentum Swing ability with Supreme Power Attack from Frenzied Berserker, but they're both replacement effects so they cannot be combined. Momentum Swing replaces the +2 per -1 with +3 per -1, and Supreme Power Attack replaces the +2 per -1 with +4 per -1. Whichever one of those you apply second will completely replace whichever one you apply first.

He's also trying to use a Raptoran's flying Dive Attack with Leap Attack, but you cannot make a jump check while flying so those two things cannot be combined.

[Sir Chuckles]

Don't forget how D&D multiplication works - all multipliers are applied to the base number, not the total of the previous multiplier.

*Except in the case of distance
*If I'm not mistaken

[Max Caysey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your 'base' damage when using a two handed weapon with power attack, with a 20 deduction, is 40, as I see it, not 20. Since Leap Attack either adds 100% or 200% to that amount(if using two-handed), as I read the it, its eiher a total of 80 (with a one handed weapon) or 120 (with a two handed weapon).

Now in the case of the D&D multiplier rule. I get, that if you crit and have a valorous weapon you dont get to give 2d6 x3 x2 for a total of 2d6 x6, but in the case of Power Attack and Leap, after reading it multiple tims, i dont think that rule applies here. What I mean is, that the feats should and (by my interpretation) does not change for the worse just because they are combined. Each feat should give/do what each feat does... In the case of Leap comebined with powerattack that is.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your 'base' damage when using a two handed weapon with power attack, with a 20 deduction, is 40, as I see it, not 20. Since Leap Attack either adds 100% or 200% to that amount(if using two-handed), as I read the it, its eiher a total of 80 (with a one handed weapon) or 120 (with a two handed weapon).

Now in the case of the D&D multiplier rule. I get, that if you crit and have a valorous weapon you dont get to give 2d6 x3 x2 for a total of 2d6 x6, but in the case of Power Attack and Leap, after reading it multiple tims, i dont think that rule applies here. What I mean is, that the feats should and (by my interpretation) does not change for the worse just because they are combined. Each feat should give/do what each feat does... In the case of Leap comebined with powerattack that is.

Leap Attack has errata. It always increases your normal Power Attack bonus by 100%, regardless of whether or not you're using a weapon two-handed.

Leap Attack is specifically worded so that it is not a multiplier, which is good because otherwise it would unnecessarily complicate damage calculations. If you're already multiplying your damage and you get a critical hit, you would still use 3.5's multiplying rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying). If you charge with a valorous weapon for x2 and get a x3 crit, you deal x4 damage.

[Zanos]

The third sentence of Leap Attack, which the errata does not change, still reads:

If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

[Oddman80]

I was looking at this (http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/5994449301/the-charging-fighter-breaking-3-5-d-d) and was simply wondering if it could really be right with all the damage. are his calculations right?

I see that powerattack with a twohandes weapon gives twice what is subtracted. So 20= 40

Leap attack says that it gives 100% base damage from powerattack, but 3 times if using twohanded weapon = 120 if 20 is subtracted. Is this right?

And what happens when valorous veapon is added? Do you realy calculate it {2d6+ (str*1.5)+120}x2?

awwww..... i just wanted to say that this exact blog post is what prompted me to get a GitP account, and make my first post... asking this same exact question..... memories. :smallsmile:

[Max Caysey]

The third sentence of Leap Attack, which the errata does not change, still reads:

Yes... But that would then mean 40 (in our example) x3 and not 20x3. base damage of power attack is namely 40 with a two handed weapon. Were you then to leap... them multiply the 40 with 3. As I read it.

[Immabozo]

No, his calculations are not right. In short.

Also, Lion Totem does not give you pounce. spirit lion totem does. Two completely different books.

And he is using Frenzied berzerker. You might just nuke your party with FB, baring 2 options I have come up with. Good luck keeping you play group. Also, will is a poor save for every class he recommends taking, on a build that will put low priority on wis. a will save or suck/loose/die will hit this build hard, and hit it fast. My old level 8 psion could probably destroy this build at level 12.

there are MUCH stronger builds, even for fighters. I made one that, at level 20, could do around 10k damage every turn, healing for around 5k (or maybe it was 2.5k?) every turn, at the same time, with 15' reach and extremely high str and con score (in the 40s and 30s respectively)

EDIT: and that build had a will save around 25, fort save 40 and no fail on a 1, AC in the 50s, with some great defenses that were better than miss chance, since almost no one, almost ever got to hit him

[Max Caysey]

No, his calculations are not right. In short.

Also, Lion Totem does not give you pounce. spirit lion totem does. Two completely different books.

And he is using Frenzied berzerker. You might just nuke your party with FB, baring 2 options I have come up with. Good luck keeping you play group. Also, will is a poor save for every class he recommends taking, on a build that will put low priority on wis. a will save or suck/loose/die will hit this build hard, and hit it fast. My old level 8 psion could probably destroy this build at level 12.

there are MUCH stronger builds, even for fighters. I made one that, at level 20, could do around 10k damage every turn, healing for around 5k (or maybe it was 2.5k?) every turn, at the same time, with 15' reach and extremely high str and con score (in the 40s and 30s respectively)

EDIT: and that build had a will save around 25, fort save 40 and no fail on a 1, AC in the 50s, with some great defenses that were better than miss chance, since almost no one, almost ever got to hit him

Any chance we could se that?

[Zanos]

No, his calculations are not right. In short.

Also, Lion Totem does not give you pounce. spirit lion totem does. Two completely different books.

And he is using Frenzied berzerker. You might just nuke your party with FB, baring 2 options I have come up with. Good luck keeping you play group. Also, will is a poor save for every class he recommends taking, on a build that will put low priority on wis. a will save or suck/loose/die will hit this build hard, and hit it fast. My old level 8 psion could probably destroy this build at level 12.

there are MUCH stronger builds, even for fighters. I made one that, at level 20, could do around 10k damage every turn, healing for around 5k (or maybe it was 2.5k?) every turn, at the same time, with 15' reach and extremely high str and con score (in the 40s and 30s respectively)

EDIT: and that build had a will save around 25, fort save 40 and no fail on a 1, AC in the 50s, with some great defenses that were better than miss chance, since almost no one, almost ever got to hit him
Whoa we get it. Yours is bigger.

[Immabozo]

Any chance we could se that?


Whoa we get it. Yours is bigger.

LOL, its not hard. Half this board can optimize better than I can. The link to the full build... I dont know where.

But it used level 10 of War hulk to hit all threatened squares with each attack, large + war shaper PrC to get 15' reach (I guess you could go with willing deformity reach, aberrant reach and spiked chain to get 50' reach, on a Dvati race to get two bodies and each hit 50' for effectively a reach of 100')

There is a weapon enhancement in MIC that gives either 1/2 or 1/4 of damage done as healing. The large numbers came from good damage (war hulk 10 gives +20 str, bear warrior makes rage give +8 str, war shaper is +4 str, starting with an 18 str and Anthropomorphic baleen whale give +6 or +8 str for a +0 LA and 3 RHD, for a 56 or 58 str score, before items), with Steadfast determination granting con to will saves, instead of wis, and power attack/leap attack/shock trooper giving large bonuses to damage, the skilled weapon enhancement brings BAB up to 3/4, or a DMM cleric friend/bribe can DMM persist Righteous Might (?) for full BAB, with cleave.

Although I think, without counting, I might be running low on feats, but if knockback can fit in there, you will control life on the battlefield. Combat Reflexes will help you do that. Although, on second thought, this is kinda counter synergistic.

So the damage is not all to one target, but to many. You still get massive heals though. And with at least 12D12 HD and at least 4D10 HD and a con score of 34 (16 starting, +4 from war shaper, +6 from rage, +4 or 6 from anthropomorphic baleen whale, +4 level) before items, you will have a massive amount of HP, steadfast determination also give con to will saves, so your will saves will rock pretty hard.

Other amuzing builds of mine, go mach 1.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327689-Movement-at-mach-1-5) and make black holes in D&D (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353504-My-first-TO-build)

[Lilapop]

Immabozo: The enchant you are referring to is Wrathful Healing, from Enemies & Allies. A 3.0 sourcebook. The one in the MIC heals only 1d6 per hit.

On the playability of Frenzied Zerkers, most of your early efforts should be centered around getting +18 to your will save and as many rerolls as you can get your hands on. Which is possible before level 10, iirc, while taking at least the core ubercharger feats. For a game at "regular" power levels, Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Imp/Sup PA is probably more than enough damage anyway.

Regarding the initial question... Leap Attack and Imp/Sup PA are badly worded, both before and after errata. That's basically all people are gonna agree on.

[Immabozo]

Immabozo: The enchant you are referring to is Wrathful Healing, from Enemies & Allies. A 3.0 sourcebook. The one in the MIC heals only 1d6 per hit.

On the playability of Frenzied Zerkers, most of your early efforts should be centered around getting +18 to your will save and as many rerolls as you can get your hands on. Which is possible before level 10, iirc, while taking at least the core ubercharger feats. For a game at "regular" power levels, Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Imp/Sup PA is probably more than enough damage anyway.

Regarding the initial question... Leap Attack and Imp/Sup PA are badly worded, both before and after errata. That's basically all people are gonna agree on.

I've never read that book. I wonder, then, what I am thinking of? Perhaps it was a % upon crits. It has been a while since I made the build

But, the answer to FB is very simple. There are 2 options.

1.) Take the Steadfast Determination feat to never auto fail fort save on a 1. Then get a fort save of at least 24. Take the drug Luhix from BoVD and during it's effects you are "immune to pain and may not react normally to it". Always making the DC 25 fort save means you never die from overdose. I'm sure you can always skip the bad effects al constantly get the beneficial effects. Although, you will have to RP a drug addict. Someone who can cast "extract drug" and even perhaps "protection from drugs" will make this cheaper and safer.

2.) have a cleric cast either bestow curse, or bestow greater curse and curse you into being unable to frenzy without first saying a command word. Bonus points if your command word is in dark speech (?) the one that kills anyone who tries to speak it untrained

[GGambrel]

Leap Attack is specifically worded so that it is not a multiplier, which is good because otherwise it would unnecessarily complicate damage calculations. If you're already multiplying your damage and you get a critical hit, you would still use 3.5's multiplying rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying). If you charge with a valorous weapon for x2 and get a x3 crit, you deal x4 damage.

I actually did not realize that the valorous property and critical hits combined in that way. :smallbiggrin: However, seeing the multiplication rules for total damage work the same as seen here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage I am pleased to see that the damage is much more reasonable.

Also, seeing as you need to jump 10' horizontally to get the benefit of Leap Attack, I might expect low ceilings (you jump up at least 2.5'), twisting corridors, and difficult terrain may cause trouble.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Divine Power is personal only, so that cleric friend isn't giving you full BaB unless he uses spell-source shenanigans and goes into Spellguard of Silverymoon.

Bestow Curse is supposed to be an actual curse. Removing the bad part of Frenzy isn't a curse.

But yes, you can get lots of damage by charging.

[Immabozo]

Divine Power is personal only, so that cleric friend isn't giving you full BaB unless he uses spell-source shenanigans and goes into Spellguard of Silverymoon.

there are ways to make it happen. Even if it is to bring it into the build.


Bestow Curse is supposed to be an actual curse. Removing the bad part of Frenzy isn't a curse.

That's not RAW. Nor is it RAI; and making a barbie unable to rage, is a curse. It still works, whether you think it's cheap or not. Cause it is cheap. It still works.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

there are ways to make it happen. Even if it is to bring it into the build.Eh, you already mentioned skillful weapon; no need to jump through silly hoops.
That's not RAW. Nor is it RAI; and making a barbie unable to rage, is a curse. RAW and RAI is that it has to be a curse. Curses are not beneficial; removing a harmful class feature is beneficial. Also, guess who gets to decide whether the curse is "more powerful than those listed above," hm?
It still works, whether you think it's cheap or not. Cause it is cheap. It still works.You know what's cheap? Going out into the middle of an uninhabited area at the beginning of each day and burning through all your frenzies. I'm not talking about whether something's cheap. I'm talking about whether something actually works.

Besides all that, I'm not sure I'd spend a bunch of prereq feats and 10 levels on an improved PA modifier when I could go for some combination of better PrCs/base classes over those levels.

[Immabozo]

Eh, you already mentioned skillful weapon; no need to jump through silly hoops.

In the interest of silly optimization, maybe. Short of that, I agree with you.


RAW and RAI is that it has to be a curse. Curses are not beneficial; removing a harmful class feature is beneficial. Also, guess who gets to decide whether the curse is "more powerful than those listed above," hm?

Very true, but if another has to say it, like the casting cleric, then it may be. True, DM has final approval of all curses. But the open-endedness of the spell makes it very versatile.

And where is the RAW saying it can't work that way? I could see an individual DM ruling it cant work that way, but there are no rules that say it cant.


You know what's cheap? Going out into the middle of an uninhabited area at the beginning of each day and burning through all your frenzies. I'm not talking about whether something's cheap. I'm talking about whether something actually works.{/quote}

I agree, it's cheap. But see my arguement above. A DM is completely within their rights to rule that it doesn't work. But by RAW, it does.

[QUOTE=GoodbyeSoberDay;17737916]Besides all that, I'm not sure I'd spend a bunch of prereq feats and 10 levels on an improved PA modifier when I could go for some combination of better PrCs/base classes over those levels.

true, similar PA modifiers can be gotten for less of a down side and less of an investment (THFing, Spirit Lion Totem Barb, PA, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper and Combat Brute will get you 3:1 PA and 4:1 PA in every round after you first charge, and pounce from spirit lion totem barbie will take the main disadvantage out of charging every round).